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  #1  
Old 02-15-2009, 03:59 AM
trkdrmr
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Default Pinstripes aren't evil!

As a few of you folks can attest, the 70's pinstripes were much deader than today's. Remo used to promise "That wet flat and funky" drum sound. The formula is different now. Today, among pre-muffled heads, pinstripes are mildly muffled compared to most.

My Aluminum kit is almost analogous to birch. it's a "balanced" sound across the spectrum with no nasty overtones. It's also tonally rounded like maple.

I have been tweaking my kit for recording. My room can be considered acoustically on the dead side, so there is not a lot to exaggerate brightness/high frequencies.

I had EC-1 clears on my deccabons. The problem was, the tone was too flat and the attack wasn't so hot. I dug out some pinstripes and viola: The "octabans" sounded really cool with a nice attack.

I already had evans resonant glass (per recommendation) on the bottom of my kit. Those do help open up a drum with a 2-ply on top.

I tried ec-2. They were nice, but a little too dull on the small toms, and I could hear too much of a plastic slap on the larger toms.

Aquarian response 2 were nice and warm, a pretty good middle ground.

G2 coated didn't sound open enough for me on the small toms, and a bit dry on the larger toms for what I was after.

Gauging the aluminum works a bit like the fiberglass octabans (no overtones) I tried pins. My drums really resonate so they can handle a wide range of heads and tunings. What the heck, $70 experiment.

The pins sounded *perfect* on the small toms. I used just a dab of moongel on the 14/16. What I have is a deep, dark and not as muffled as you'd think sound. There is nice attack, but no plastic slap. And yes, they have a wetter sound than g2 coated.

My .02 cents is that pinstripes aren't evil, especially for rock, metal or prog. Everyone's drums have their own characteristics. The pins may/may not do all drums justice. And they are not for those wanting a wide-open sound. But they work very well in some applications. And the final strength they have: tonal "neutrality." They are neither dark, nor bright. So in this case, I am getting as much tonality from my shells as from the pins.

Pinstripes aren't evil, but some applications of them might be.

I am happy with them.

YMMV
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  #2  
Old 02-15-2009, 04:07 AM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

I ran 'em on my Vistalites almost all the time. Produced a great sound for that kinda shell.
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Old 02-15-2009, 04:09 AM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

Interesting post. But what a coincidence! Just 10 seconds before you posted this, I received a comment on Youtube:

nice drumming, snare and bass sound GREAT, but the toms sound very dead, they might sound great from the drivers seat, but they sound very dead from where I'm sitting.

He was talking about the pinstripes. Obviously, I didn't have them mic'ed, and I'm sure they would have sounded better if they were. However, I don't think they would be great for a live application, unless your kit is amplified.
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Old 02-15-2009, 04:20 AM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

this may sound wierd.... but i was using my pinstripes as my batters, with ambs on reso, but i was getting too many overtones and it was too hard to tune(couldnt find the sweet spot), then i switched them around, with PS's on the reso and ambs on the batter, OMG they sound great now! no overtones and very easy to tune!, for my floor toms i did have to buy 2 more pinstripes for the tops, beacuse the ambs didnt look right to me on them(im a perfectionist :P). But pinstripes work great as reso heads :D Just thought i'd say it :)
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Old 02-15-2009, 04:31 AM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 805Drummer View Post
Interesting post. .........Youtube:

nice drumming, snare and bass sound GREAT, but the toms sound very dead, they might sound great from the drivers seat, but they sound very dead from where I'm sitting.
Just take all that with a "grain of salt". Where IS he sitting. At home, listenning to Utube on his computer. And your drums. You have them set up at home, right? So they probably ARE tuned to your liking, which is from the drivers seat. Pins might not be my first choice of heads for an 805 kit, but unless they're totally worn out, I bet I could get those babies to sing with 5 minutes of tuning/tweaking. My first 2 head choices would be Powerstroke 3 or Emperor heads.
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Old 02-15-2009, 04:33 AM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daphfz View Post
this may sound wierd.... but i was using my pinstripes as my batters, with ambs on reso, but i was getting too many overtones and it was too hard to tune(couldnt find the sweet spot), then i switched them around, with PS's on the reso and ambs on the batter, OMG they sound great now! no overtones and very easy to tune!, for my floor toms i did have to buy 2 more pinstripes for the tops, beacuse the ambs didnt look right to me on them(im a perfectionist :P). But pinstripes work great as reso heads :D Just thought i'd say it :)
Like I say..application.

FWIW: clear emperors on deccabons are *ever so slightly* more open.

On woods like luuan and poplar (which aren't as intense on the high end as maple or birch) they could sound thuddy or too dead.

Live application? Well, again...drum dependent. I'd use them on mine, vistalite as mentioned, yamaha oak and a few others, but not everything.
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Old 02-15-2009, 04:35 AM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

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Originally Posted by harryconway View Post
Just take all that with a "grain of salt". Where IS he sitting. At home, listenning to Utube on his computer. And your drums. You have them set up at home, right? So they probably ARE tuned to your liking, which is from the drivers seat. Pins might not be my first choice of heads for an 805 kit, but unless they're totally worn out, I bet I could get those babies to sing with 5 minutes of tuning/tweaking. My first 2 head choices would be Powerstroke 3 or Emperor heads.
PS/3's are deader on my toms than pins!!! (So are ec2)

If I go more open for whatever need, the Aquarian response clears or emperor clears will do nicely.
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Old 02-15-2009, 04:38 AM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daphfz View Post
this may sound wierd.... but i was using my pinstripes as my batters, with ambs on reso, but i was getting too many overtones and it was too hard to tune(couldnt find the sweet spot), then i switched them around, with PS's on the reso and ambs on the batter, OMG they sound great now! no overtones and very easy to tune!, for my floor toms i did have to buy 2 more pinstripes for the tops, beacuse the ambs didnt look right to me on them(im a perfectionist :P). But pinstripes work great as reso heads :D Just thought i'd say it :)
So do Performance IIs. They sound terribly dead as batters, but for resos, they work fine.
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  #9  
Old 02-15-2009, 04:40 AM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

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Originally Posted by 805Drummer View Post
So do Performance IIs. They sound terribly dead as batters, but for resos, they work fine.
Performance 2's are even deader than hydraulics. THUD...nothing more.
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Old 02-15-2009, 04:42 AM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

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Originally Posted by 805Drummer View Post
Interesting post. But what a coincidence! Just 10 seconds before you posted this, I received a comment on Youtube:
NO link????

I could listen to it on my recording rig, which is behringer truth monitors with a 12" sealed sub. They are exponentially better than PC speakers, especially in terms of flat response and real low end from a real sub.
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Old 02-15-2009, 04:58 AM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

Quote:
Originally Posted by trkdrmr View Post
NO link????

I could listen to it on my recording rig, which is behringer truth monitors with a 12" sealed sub. They are exponentially better than PC speakers, especially in terms of flat response and real low end from a real sub.
Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN_X2...e=channel_page

But you might get a better sound on this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0R4j...e=channel_page
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  #12  
Old 02-15-2009, 05:13 AM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

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Originally Posted by 805Drummer View Post
In the 1st video, it was likely mic technique vs the drum. From the 2nd video, I am getting a round tom tone with plenty of low end. They are not that flat or dead. I can use Joey Jordinson's kit as a measuring stick for dead, and yours are not nearly that dead. Nor are they as dead as Gadd's kit.

Now, compared to the wide open/high pitched "jazzer" sound the critique might be a bit valid, but as Harry commented: I suspect crappy PC speakers from the "plaintiff." The 2nd video has better tone and sound.
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Old 02-15-2009, 05:14 AM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

I had pinstripes on my maple kit and no matter what I did it sounded flat, I tried coated emperors and the sound was awesome, more pronounced and round ( if that makes sense ).
My tuning abilities are so so, maybe that had something to do with it, but I was able to hit the sweet spot with the emperors.
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Old 02-15-2009, 05:20 AM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

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Originally Posted by piperdoog View Post
I had pinstripes on my maple kit and no matter what I did it sounded flat, I tried coated emperors and the sound was awesome, more pronounced and round ( if that makes sense ).
My tuning abilities are so so, maybe that had something to do with it, but I was able to hit the sweet spot with the emperors.
"Maple kit" also has a wide variety of implications.

DW collectors have one sound vs Pearl MCX or Gretsch Catalina maple. Each will react differently, some unfavorably.

My kit sounds very close to Mike Portnoy's maple SC kit *after* it has been eq'd through recording.

The SC maple kits sound pretty good with pins, at least in the context Mike uses them.

Emperors are a good "standard" to use to measure any given drum's abilities. It will bring out some low end, without being muffled. They are easiest to tune, because there are no "special effects."
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Old 02-15-2009, 05:21 AM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

Quote:
Originally Posted by trkdrmr View Post
In the 1st video, it was likely mic technique vs the drum. From the 2nd video, I am getting a round tom tone with plenty of low end. They are not that flat or dead. I can use Joey Jordinson's kit as a measuring stick for dead, and yours are not nearly that dead. Nor are they as dead as Gadd's kit.

Now, compared to the wide open/high pitched "jazzer" sound the critique might be a bit valid, but as Harry commented: I suspect crappy PC speakers from the "plaintiff." The 2nd video has better tone and sound.
That makes sense, because the second video was recorded with a different camera, and it was less compressed. I actually tried putting an Emperor on my rack tom, because I liked the punchy, mid-range sound, but I couldn't really tune it to sound good. I think it was part my tuning ability, but also part because they are a bit harder to tune. For now, I really like the pinstripes. Any suggestions for tuning though, specifically for my kit? Because I've never heard it through nice speakers, I'm just wondering if you have any comments.
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Old 02-15-2009, 05:27 AM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

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Originally Posted by 805Drummer View Post
That makes sense, because the second video was recorded with a different camera, and it was less compressed. I actually tried putting an Emperor on my rack tom, because I liked the punchy, mid-range sound, but I couldn't really tune it to sound good. I think it was part my tuning ability, but also part because they are a bit harder to tune. For now, I really like the pinstripes. Any suggestions for tuning though, specifically for my kit? Because I've never heard it through nice speakers, I'm just wondering if you have any comments.
I say you are getting good results with the drumhead as is, don't mess with it. They serve well for overall uses. *IF* you wanted to be versatile and get tricky, clear emperors might work, but with moongel as required.

I prefer the pins, because I really don't need moongel if I don't want to.

The *only* real way (IMO) to capture a drum kit's sound are with at least semi decent mics, some kind of mixer (digital like presonus) and the ability to monitor the mix with decent headphones or speakers.

If you can't capture/hear a semi-decent representation of the kits sound as a decent microphone hears it, the rest has too many variables.

I know, because if *I* hear a serious anomaly on my kit (like a nasty plasticky slap) a mic will only exacerbate that effect. That (I am surmising) is why recordings are done with drums tuned and at least partially muffled in some way... except of course for the "wide open" jazz sound.

Good example: Steve Smith's "Shoulder of giants" DVD. IMO, his kit sounded slappy, and lacked some depth/richness. Todd Sucharman used either amb clears or emp clears and his kit sounded deeper and richer, without the plastic slap. (M&M dvd)
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Old 02-15-2009, 05:41 AM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

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Originally Posted by trkdrmr View Post
I say you are getting good results with the drumhead as is, don't mess with it. They serve well for overall uses. *IF* you wanted to be versatile and get tricky, clear emperors might work, but with moongel as required.

I prefer the pins, because I really don't need moongel if I don't want to.

The *only* real way (IMO) to capture a drum kit's sound are with at least semi decent mics, some kind of mixer (digital like presonus) and the ability to monitor the mix with decent headphones or speakers.

If you can't capture/hear a semi-decent representation of the kits sound as a decent microphone hears it, the rest has too many variables.

I know, because if *I* hear a serious anomaly on my kit (like a nasty plasticky slap) a mic will only exacerbate that effect. That (I am surmising) is why recordings are done with drums tuned and at least partially muffled in some way... except of course for the "wide open" jazz sound.

Good example: Steve Smith's "Shoulder of giants" DVD. IMO, his kit sounded slappy, and lacked some depth/richness. Todd Sucharman used either amb clears or emp clears and his kit sounded deeper and richer, without the plastic slap. (M&M dvd)
Interesting. Yeah, eventually I'll invest in some mics, but obviously their not my priority. I have the Performance IIs tuned really high on the bottom, with the Pinstripes pretty medium on the top, which gives a nice deep, punchy sound. If I was gigging, I definitely wouldn't use these though.
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Old 02-16-2009, 09:59 PM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

For one, people seem to look down on EQing like triggers, cheating, but I think it's really more of making the recording/mix sound more like your drums (given they sound good). I don't think there were any issues of sound in MP's Starrclassics that needed to be sorted at the mixer.

On another note, I like Remo CS heads. Good attack, warm sound. On my Birch kit.
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Old 02-18-2009, 05:32 PM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

I'm going to go out and replace the pins I have on mine, with emperors and ambas on the bottom, the pins just sound slappy to me, not a bad sound but i believe I can achieve better, and hey if it fails I can always through the pins back on.
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Old 02-18-2009, 05:36 PM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

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I'm going to go out and replace the pins I have on mine, with emperors and ambas on the bottom, the pins just sound slappy to me, not a bad sound but i believe I can achieve better, and hey if it fails I can always through the pins back on.
Pins (like ec2 and g2 clears) don't always work on every kit. IMO, they work fine on SC maple, and my aluminum kit. They might not work well on oak or birch.

I feel as though my drums are ready to record, and I will only adjust levels, not EQ.

I will eq if required, but I believe in a great sounding kit first, not fixing things completely in post.
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Old 02-24-2009, 02:29 AM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

Well I replaced the pins with coated emperors and to put it bluntly pinstripes SUCK!!! The difference is night and day, my drums sing and don't sound muffled or dead. They were very easy to tune and its like I have a whole new drum kit. I'm very happy with the results..
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Old 02-24-2009, 02:33 AM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

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Originally Posted by piperdoog View Post
Well I replaced the pins with coated emperors and to put it bluntly pinstripes SUCK!!! The difference is night and day, my drums sing and don't sound muffled or dead. They were very easy to tune and its like I have a whole new drum kit. I'm very happy with the results..
Yes, but even with coated emperors your drums cannot sing as cleanly as mine with pins. There really isn't even a contest. Superior resonance means superior sound that pins can't dull. It's physics. So, pins don't suck.
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Old 02-24-2009, 02:38 AM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

Bold statement, how do you know what my drums sound like? I'm sure your drum set is of superior quality. I know of a drum tech who says Pins are great for making cheap drums sound good.
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Old 02-24-2009, 02:53 AM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

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Bold statement, how do you know what my drums sound like? I'm sure your drum set is of superior quality. I know of a drum tech who says Pins are great for making cheap drums sound good.
Mike Portnoy didn't get the memo for his starclassic maple drums. So your drum tech is mistaken.

No, I am not saying pins are for those that are after the tight jazz with endless openness and no depth. But they don't make quality drums thud, they make them easier to mic and record. And of course, if they are great drums, pins aren't sufficient to kill them. If the drums only thud with pins, they were dead to start with hence the reason they help cheap kits.

Using g2's with moongel is more damping than pins are. Pins are nowhere near as dull as performance 2's , g-plus coated or as muting as hydraulics. Yet people use those drumheads as well and achieve their sound.
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Old 02-24-2009, 02:57 AM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

I agree, and I didn't mean to get under your skin, I was just pissed because my maple kit did sound off with these heads now it sounds ( to my ears great ). Oh and by the way nice trick kit you have. The pedals are awesome..
Cheers man..
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Old 02-24-2009, 03:00 AM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

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I agree, and I didn't mean to get under your skin, I was just pissed because my maple kit did sound off with these heads now it sounds ( to my ears great ). Oh and by the way nice trick kit you have. The pedals are awesome..
Cheers man..
I don't know what maple kit you had... if it was like Mike's sc. ASH is certainly bright enough not to be too dulled by pins unless again, it's the totally open and bright sound you are after.

Pins are -not- the sound everyone is after. They work for prog, rock and blues. They will not be preferred by anyone playing jazz, most pop or fusion.

By all means, remember: I am not advocating pins for every use... I have clear response 2's and other drumheads if needed.
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Old 02-24-2009, 03:00 AM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

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Originally Posted by trkdrmr View Post
Using g2's with moongel is more damping than pins are. Pins are nowhere near as dull as performance 2's , g-plus coated or as muting as hydraulics. Yet people use those drumheads as well and achieve their sound.
Yeah, I went from Performance 2's to (ebony) Pinstripes, and the difference is night and day. I swear, I have nightmares about how my kit sounded with the P2s...it sounded like I was hitting a piece of plastic.
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Old 02-24-2009, 03:02 AM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

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Yeah, I went from Performance 2's to (ebony) Pinstripes, and the difference is night and day. I swear, I have nightmares about how my kit sounded with the P2s...it sounded like I was hitting a piece of plastic.
The sound I heard on a yamaha RC with P2's was nothing at all.. it was like hitting a basketball under a plastic sheet. THUNK.
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Old 02-24-2009, 03:04 AM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

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Yeah, I went from Performance 2's to (ebony) Pinstripes, and the difference is night and day. I swear, I have nightmares about how my kit sounded with the P2s...it sounded like I was hitting a piece of plastic.
Thats exactly what was happening to me with the pins, sounded brutal.
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Old 02-24-2009, 03:08 AM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

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Thats exactly what was happening to me with the pins, sounded brutal.
Except it depends how you tune them. Mine are tuned fairly high, with the resos (P2s--I don't have anything else!) super tight. That way, it gives a responsive, punchy sound. I tried an Emperor on my tom, and for some reason it didn't tune well, but my floor tom is much more easy to tune. I'll have to experiment with it one day. I've actually been wanting to try the Remo Suede or Evans Onyx, because the Remos got good reviews, and my kit looks great with black heads...
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Old 02-24-2009, 03:11 AM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

I have heard those Remo's are good. I'm out on this one on the Pins, and for my two cents... "Pinstripes are EVIL"!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 02-24-2009, 03:12 AM
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I have heard those Remo's are good. I'm out on this one on the Pins, and for my two cents... "Pinstripes are EVIL FOR INFERIOR KITS"!!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree! I am right there with you.

Going from clear amb weight resos to 7 mil resonant glass made a huge difference. Opened way up.
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Old 02-24-2009, 03:16 AM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

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I have heard those Remo's are good. I'm out on this one on the Pins, and for my two cents... "Pinstripes are EVIL"!!!!!!!!!!!!
You know, maybe Pinstripes are evil, but have you tried the Ebony pinstripes? I have 13" Remo clear Pinstripe, but I don't have a 12" tom to try it out on--I used to (Pearl Export, anybody? haha). I think the Ebonies have a bit more character, though. Warm, dark, deep, thumpy, etc. The clears, I believe are more refined and generic.

Ooh, and I just found this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_0EG...eature=related The Suedes sound pretty good.
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Old 02-24-2009, 03:19 AM
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

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Originally Posted by 805Drummer View Post
You know, maybe Pinstripes are evil, but have you tried the Ebony pinstripes? I have 13" Remo clear Pinstripe, but I don't have a 12" tom to try it out on--I used to (Pearl Export, anybody? haha). I think the Ebonies have a bit more character, though. Warm, dark, deep, thumpy, etc. The clears, I believe are more refined and generic.

Ooh, and I just found this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_0EG...eature=related The Suedes sound pretty good.
Have not tried the ebony ones they probably would be better.. But those other ones ON ANY KIT are brutal!!!!!!
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  #35  
Old 02-24-2009, 03:21 AM
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805Drummer 805Drummer is offline
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

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Originally Posted by piperdoog View Post
Have not tried the ebony ones they probably would be better.. But those other ones ON ANY KIT are brutal!!!!!!
At Power Chord Academy, a rock music camp I went to (google it), there was a band called Toaster Brootal. I know it's totally unrelated, but seriously. The drummer could've really used some Black Suedes. It disappoints me how Evans blatantly copied them, and I think it's cool how Aquarian is still doing their own thang.
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Old 02-24-2009, 03:35 AM
piperdoog piperdoog is offline
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

Dude you are way too bent out of shape, sorry if I hurt your love affair with these particular drum heads, but seriously, you posted this forum. Not everybody has your opinion on drumming stuff!!!
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Old 02-24-2009, 03:40 AM
trkdrmr
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

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Originally Posted by piperdoog View Post
Dude you are way too bent out of shape, sorry if I hurt your love affair with these particular drum heads, but seriously, you posted this forum. Not everybody has your opinion on drumming stuff!!!
Or yours. People have better kits than yours and more tuning skills, so don't be angry at that either.
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Old 02-24-2009, 03:42 AM
piperdoog piperdoog is offline
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

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Originally Posted by trkdrmr View Post
Or yours. People have better kits than yours and more tuning skills, so don't be angry at that either.
Lol, are you kidding, is this really about who's kit is better than whos??? How old are you???
You win, ok your kit is better!!!!!
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Old 02-24-2009, 03:45 AM
trkdrmr
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

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Originally Posted by piperdoog View Post
Lol, are you kidding, is this really about who's kit is better than whos??? How old are you???
You win, ok your kit is better!!!!!
Old enough to know that someone hasn't had the most mature or experienced response to the use of pinstripes since the late 70's as I have.

I remember the original pins and how thuddy they were.

I also know that there are big differences, even among maple shells.

When your kit sounds as good as the hundreds of kits (of all price class) that have pins then I will be impressed.

So far, you haven't convinced anyone that you have some exclusive authority on how drums should or could sound.

It's all your subjective opinion, and you are obviously not familiar with how they CAN sound on a high end kit.
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Old 02-24-2009, 03:56 AM
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DrewTheShoe DrewTheShoe is offline
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Default Re: Pinstripes aren't evil!

I think that you kinda beat around the bush a little, as some Clear G2's probably would've done you justice, with more resonance than the Pins. Hell, if you really wanna stick with Remo, try some clear Emps. I think you'll be able to get just as good a sound out of them, but with more resonance.
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