Beyond Bop Drumming

[randrade89]

Just received this book. Looks pretty intense. Has anyone studied it? Any comments?

[caddywumpus]

Yeah, it's great. Have you gone through his first book, The Art of Bop Drumming? This book picks up where that one left off, or rather, it's a really good idea to go through the first book first as a foundation for the stuff you learn in this book...

[Rasta]

I've heard these books are quite good. I've never read either. They worth getting? Can anyone describe essentially what they contain?

[caddywumpus]

Originally Posted by Rasta

I've heard these books are quite good. I've never read either. They worth getting? Can anyone describe essentially what they contain?

They contain a LOT. They cover a lot of ground. They de-mystify a lot about jazz drumming.

Specifically, the sections on comping examples are very good and give you not only ideas for comping and soloing, but also simultaneously work your independence. They also contain soloing ideas (how to solo in the jazz idiom), brush patterns, phrasing, phrasing over bars, lots of excellent text, etc...

[Rasta]

Originally Posted by caddywumpus

They contain a LOT. They cover a lot of ground. They de-mystify a lot about jazz drumming.

Specifically, the sections on comping examples are very good and give you not only ideas for comping and soloing, but also simultaneously work your independence. They also contain soloing ideas (how to solo in the jazz idiom), brush patterns, phrasing, phrasing over bars, lots of excellent text, etc...

Cool. I think I'll get the first one, and take it from there.

[Deltadrummer]

Originally Posted by randrade89

Just received this book. Looks pretty intense. Has anyone studied it? Any comments?

It is intense. It is not to be taken lightly. You can go through it with John Ramsey's book on Alan Dawson. Don't waste your time if you're not prepped for it because you will not get all the simultaneities to happen: high hat with cymbal etc. Ands if youn don't, you are just reinforcing bad habits.

[Matty G.]

Both the 'Art of Bop' and 'Beyond Bop' are great books. The exercises are very logical and musical and John's written words do a fabulous job of putting things into context. Good play-a-longs, too.

Beyond Bop has some great transcriptions and exercises for developing more advanced 3-voice and 4-voice comping. I'd say make sure that you can comfortably go through the 'Art of Bop' first. Then 'Beyond Bop' will be a natural progression.

[mugglesport]

Originally Posted by Deltadrummer

It is intense. It is not to be taken lightly. You can go through it with John Ramsey's book on Alan Dawson. Don't waste your time if you're not prepped for it because you will not get all the simultaneities to happen: high hat with cymbal etc. Ands if youn don't, you are just reinforcing bad habits.

I'm going through "Art of Bop Drumming" concurently with the John Ramsey/Alan Dawson / Ted Reed "Syncopation" "system"

[FunkyJazzer]

Originally Posted by mugglesport

I'm going through "Art of Bop Drumming" concurently with the John Ramsey/Alan Dawson / Ted Reed "Syncopation" "system"

How's that going?

202020

[Deltadrummer]

Originally Posted by mugglesport

I'm going through "Art of Bop Drumming" concurently with the John Ramsey/Alan Dawson / Ted Reed "Syncopation" "system"

This is the best way to do it. You have a good teacher. Oh, btw. it's also the way John teaches it.

[randrade89]

Thanks to everyone for the replies. Ive been through the art but not with the john ramsey syncopation method. Whats that book called?

[Deltadrummer]

The Drummer's Complete Vocabulary, as taught by Alan Dawson. by John Ramsay. Dawson was Tony William's teacher. I am pretty sure that the drummer's referred to in Beyond Bop Drumming: Jack De Johnette, Paul Motian, Elvin Jones and Bob Moses, were doing these types of exercises as well. The Dawson stuff really gives you a basis for that style of drumming, The Riley book adds transcriptions and real times ideas.

http://www.amazon.com/Drummers-Compl.../dp/0769265243

[mugglesport]

Originally Posted by FunkyJazzer

How's that going?

202020

Originally Posted by Deltadrummer

This is the best way to do it. You have a good teacher. Oh, btw. it's also the way John teaches it.

Its going pretty well, though I don't have a lot of time to work through it all usually (i work 40 - 50 hour weeks). My teacher is having me work through the Riley and Ramsey/Dawson books concurently and we're holding off on "Syncopation" for a while.

To me, the material so far is very comprehensible...that is, everything makes sense and all of the concepts are easy for me to understand (in truth, I've played a lot of this before when I played percussion in school...though I'm not very deep into any of the books yet.) but being away from drumming for 7 years has made me rusty.

Its also a completely new thing for me to play rudiments on a drumset with bass quarters and hat on 2&4. I'm used to being on a snare or pad for rudiments. This clearly is the greatest benefit for improving my playing right now.

For me, I play through my set of material for the day, struggle with parts of it...work on it but don't quite get it all, then when I come back a day or two later to the same material, it just clicks.

[John Riley]

Hi Everybody. John Riley here.

It's great to see all the discussion about the Alan Dawson/John Ramsay method and my books. I am happy and flattered that they are helpful to so many people. I definitely recommend going through "The Art of Bop Drumming" before looking at "Beyond Bop Drumming."

You know, in the early days there weren't nearly as many books, nor as many detailed books on specific topics, as there are today. So teachers like Alan, Joe Morello, Freddie Gruber, Jim Chapin, Murray Spivak and others took the books that were available and applied them to meet their diverse needs. The most widely available books, and this is important - the most easily adaptable books, since they didn't have much text, were Stick Control and Syncopation. Those are the primary books Alan used with all his students, including Tony Williams, and Joe Morello used with Danny Gottlieb, me and all his students. An informed and creative teacher could mold this material to address many common technical, coordination or phrasing issues. These teachers weren't necessarily using these books in a focused way to enhance their student's musicianship, rather they were used as tools to help gain control of the limbs. The idea was: if the student "hears" music, with the control gained by going through all the different applications of Stick Control and Syncopation, then that student would have the control to fluidly express themselves. Without a good teacher, very few students seemed to find all the great ways those books could be applied.

Alan's book and my books give more guidance and make the process clearer and a bit more direct. Still, one must work for years, study a lot of CDs and be fortunate to play with players more advanced than they are to really gain a good grip on things.

Best,

John

[gusty]

Originally Posted by John Riley

Hi Everybody. John Riley here.

It's great to see all the discussion about the Alan Dawson/John Ramsay method and my books. I am happy and flattered that they are helpful to so many people. I definitely recommend going through "The Art of Bop Drumming" before looking at "Beyond Bop Drumming."

You know, in the early days there weren't nearly as many books, nor as many detailed books on specific topics, as there are today. So teachers like Alan, Joe Morello, Freddie Gruber, Jim Chapin, Murray Spivak and others took the books that were available and applied them to meet their diverse needs. The most widely available books, and this is important - the most easily adaptable books, since they didn't have much text, were Stick Control and Syncopation. Those are the primary books Alan used with all his students, including Tony Williams, and Joe Morello used with Danny Gottlieb, me and all his students. An informed and creative teacher could mold this material to address many common technical, coordination or phrasing issues. These teachers weren't necessarily using these books in a focused way to enhance their student's musicianship, rather they were used as tools to help gain control of the limbs. The idea was: if the student "hears" music, with the control gained by going through all the different applications of Stick Control and Syncopation, then that student would have the control to fluidly express themselves. Without a good teacher, very few students seemed to find all the great ways those books could be applied.

Alan's book and my books give more guidance and make the process clearer and a bit more direct. Still, one must work for years, study a lot of CDs and be fortunate to play with players more advanced than they are to really gain a good grip on things.

Best,

John

:O

john riley! the forum loves your books.

[FunkyJazzer]

Originally Posted by John Riley

Hi Everybody. John Riley here.

It's great to see all the discussion about the Alan Dawson/John Ramsay method and my books. I am happy and flattered that they are helpful to so many people. I definitely recommend going through "The Art of Bop Drumming" before looking at "Beyond Bop Drumming."

You know, in the early days there weren't nearly as many books, nor as many detailed books on specific topics, as there are today. So teachers like Alan, Joe Morello, Freddie Gruber, Jim Chapin, Murray Spivak and others took the books that were available and applied them to meet their diverse needs. The most widely available books, and this is important - the most easily adaptable books, since they didn't have much text, were Stick Control and Syncopation. Those are the primary books Alan used with all his students, including Tony Williams, and Joe Morello used with Danny Gottlieb, me and all his students. An informed and creative teacher could mold this material to address many common technical, coordination or phrasing issues. These teachers weren't necessarily using these books in a focused way to enhance their student's musicianship, rather they were used as tools to help gain control of the limbs. The idea was: if the student "hears" music, with the control gained by going through all the different applications of Stick Control and Syncopation, then that student would have the control to fluidly express themselves. Without a good teacher, very few students seemed to find all the great ways those books could be applied.

Alan's book and my books give more guidance and make the process clearer and a bit more direct. Still, one must work for years, study a lot of CDs and be fortunate to play with players more advanced than they are to really gain a good grip on things.

Best,

John

YES! John Riley at DrummerWorld! GET ON THAT!





Will you marry me?

[Deltadrummer]

It's times like these that you have to thank Bernard and crew for making it all possible. :)

[aydee]

Originally Posted by John Riley

Hi Everybody. John Riley here.

....Still, one must work for years, study a lot of CDs and be fortunate to play with players more advanced than they are to really gain a good grip on things.

So says one of the prophets of drum instruction books . Here's a great little 'un-transcripted' nugget of wisdom right there!

[Wavelength]

Originally Posted by John Riley

Alan's book and my books give more guidance and make the process clearer and a bit more direct. Still, one must work for years, study a lot of CDs and be fortunate to play with players more advanced than they are to really gain a good grip on things.

Indeed. I like the idea that books and exercises will teach you how to play the instrument, but playing with other, better musicians will teach you how to play music with that instrument.

[Deltadrummer]

The thing about John's work is that it takes pedagogy to the next level by giving you the practical application of the theory. I think the wonderful thing about John's books is that they do teach you how to play music. They are not dry abstract exercises. There is a place for abstract exercises on technique and independence. John's books add to that the idea of structure and phrasing. Then you have the recordings to work with. If you add Dawson to the mix, you get a rich balance between theory and practice.

Some of the exercises in Beyond Bop Drumming I find impossible. So I just think, well I just won't do those. Then you hear Tony Williams do it and you want to be able to do that. Working with the Dawson makes those parts of the book attainable for me.

For folks who are young, and that's anyone under 30, you really have the ooprtunity to see the potential of the instrument on a scale that has never been offered before. I've listened to those recordings many times, and just never really understood what was going on until I got into these books. And it's just one style and one aspect of drumming; but it may be the greatest style in the history of the instrument.

Abe, it's time to talk about the video.:)

[Hercraft]

Originally Posted by John Riley

Hi Everybody. John Riley here.

It's great to see all the discussion about the Alan Dawson/John Ramsay method and my books. I am happy and flattered that they are helpful to so many people.

I cant belive Im quoting John Riley!
I only have to say that this books REALLY help me understand some very fine compings.

I play along with this book and use it for teaching as well.

Amazing!

[Matty G.]

One of my favorite parts of 'Beyond Bop' is the Jack Dejohnnette transcription from "Picture 3" The phrasing is so cool! I'm working on that right now, focusing on only 4 bars at a time, waiting until it seeps in, then trying to build my own phrases with the same motives. Difficult but fun practice! Thanks, John.

[Dan Lane]

I've been meaning to get this book for a while, having worked through "Art of Bop" cover to cover. I absolutely loved that book. Before I got that book, Jazz independence seemed impossible,but the book just opened everything up to me. I reccomend it to every drummer meet.

What exactly is the "Dawson" method, which you all are discussing?

[Deltadrummer]

I could not explain it better then John Riley has already outlined, so read the posts.

Alan Dawson was a teacher in Boston who taught at Berkely College of Music. He taught guys like Tony Williams, Kenward Dennard, Steve Smith and Vinnie Colaiuta. He also played with such notables as Dave Brubeck, Tal Farlow and Bill Evans. Back in the day, there were not a lot of books available for teachers. Those teachers who could find ways to use the books avaiable in the most creative ways were the most sucessful of teachers. The two books readily available were Reed's Syncopation and Stone's Stick Control. Teachers like Alan applied these books to various ideas associated with various jazz and even rock and Latin styles.

One of the techniques Alan used was reading through the various syncopation exercises in Reed's book as jazz melodies and coming up with different voicings around the kit. The John Ramsey book on Dawson details these various voicing exercises. For example, you can read the melodies on the snare drum or bass drum with a jazz interpretation against the jazz ride and HH pattern. You could play the long notes on the bass drum and short notes on the snare. You could do these patterns while playing quarter note triplets on the HH. There are about 40 or so options in the book; and there are many more that you can come up with or that teachers have used as a stepping stones to some of the patterns in the book or other variations. This is just the most notable of Dawson's techniques and if you really wanted to learn the "Dawson Method," it would be best to locate a teacher who studied with Dawson.

[mikeray]

Originally Posted by Deltadrummer

I could not explain it better then John Riley has already outlined, so read the posts.

Alan Dawson was a teacher in Boston who taught at Berkely College of Music. He taught guys like Tony Williams, Kenward Dennard, Steve Smith and Vinnie Colaiuta. He also played with such notables as Dave Brubeck, Tal Farlow and Bill Evans. Back in the day, there were not a lot of books available for teachers. Those teachers who could find ways to use the books avaiable in the most creative ways were the most sucessful of teachers. The two books readily available were Reed's Syncopation and Stone's Stick Control. Teachers like Alan applied these books to various ideas associated with various jazz and even rock and Latin styles.

One of the techniques Alan used was reading through the various syncopation exercises in Reed's book as jazz melodies and coming up with different voicings around the kit. The John Ramsey book on Dawson details these various voicing exercises. For example, you can read the melodies on the snare drum or bass drum with a jazz interpretation against the jazz ride and HH pattern. You could play the long notes on the bass drum and short notes on the snare. You could do these patterns while playing quarter note triplets on the HH. There are about 40 or so options in the book; and there are many more that you can come up with or that teachers have used as a stepping stones to some of the patterns in the book or other variations. This is just the most notable of Dawson's techniques and if you really wanted to learn the "Dawson Method," it would be best to locate a teacher who studied with Dawson.

And, a huge 'Amen' and 'Thanks' to John for having written these great books. . .they are really well-written, are way full of unbelievably valuable information, etc. and I'll spend the rest of this lifetime and most of the next in 'Beyond' . . .that, when I'm not spending a lifetime in Stanton's book, or Garibaldi's book, or DeAlmeida's book, or Mike Clark's book, or . . .well, you get the picture. . .so many educational opportunities, so few lifetimes!!!

[bjparadiddle]

The salient thing about "Syncopation" is that you're thinking musically, as you learn the various methods of playing the lines. It's also easier to learn to read when the quarter note bass drum line follows the measures throughout the book. You're actually singing to yourself as you learn, as opposed to thinking of the various components of the kit, licks, etc.

It's still a great book to begin with. It has its limitations: it's all in one time signature, and deals mainly with syncopated eighth notes. Nevertheless, the book is a great primer. But a good teacher is vital.

[Dedworx]

i love both John Riley's books. They really helped me think about the right things. My understanding of Jazz music and Jazz playing really took a leap forward thanks to John.

So thanks John.

Cheers

[bjparadiddle]

I agree about Riley's books. I'm 56 years old, and remember studying technique with teachers, who never mentioned song form, if you can believe it. I had to learn the concepts of the music on my own, and with sage advice from some friends and other musicians.
Riley's books--especially his explanations about playing the music--would've shaved a couple years off of my learning curve. However, I did get to see, and sometimes meet, nearly all the greats in jazz drumming, which does compensate.

[Funky Crêpe]

does anyone have any video's posted wih them using the techniques used in this book?

[John Riley]

John Riley here:

I suggest viewing the numerous videos by Tony Williams, Elvin Jones, Bill Stewart, Jeff Watts and Ari Hoenig. I'm playing some of these ideas on videos with John Scofield and with Joe Lovano; you can find them at johnrileymusic on myspace.com. I also explore related ideas, among many other things, in my new DVD "The Master Drummer - How to Practice, Play and Think Like a Pro" available April 1 from Alfred.

I hope seeing these great players inspires you.

Best,

John

[wy yung]

Originally Posted by randrade89

Just received this book. Looks pretty intense. Has anyone studied it? Any comments?

Both books are very good IMO and follow logical steps. The art of bop drumming is best worked through before "beyond..."

Bop drumming begins with time playing, phrasing, bass drum and hi hat, how to practice, ride cymbals etc in the 1st chapter and then works very logically through comping, soloing, brushes etc.

Beyond bop drumming is exactly what its name implies, moving through more advanced comping, implying time signatures, solo ideas etc. And both books provide excellent CD play alongs.

Highly recomended.

[Funky Crêpe]

Originally Posted by John Riley

John Riley here:

I suggest viewing the numerous videos by Tony Williams, Elvin Jones, Bill Stewart, Jeff Watts and Ari Hoenig. I'm playing some of these ideas on videos with John Scofield and with Joe Lovano; you can find them at johnrileymusic on myspace.com. I also explore related ideas, among many other things, in my new DVD "The Master Drummer - How to Practice, Play and Think Like a Pro" available April 1 from Alfred.

I hope seeing these great players inspires you.

Best,

John

thanks a million John, i'll give them a look!......i saw a transcription of one of Elvin's solo's in your book....intense stuff!
i'm going to get get one of them soon
cheers

[randrade89]

Thanks very much for the replies guys. What better advice than john riley's. Thanks again. Im on the second page of the eighth note comping and im lovin this book.

[bjparadiddle]

I picked up Riley's book, "The Jazz Drummer's Workshop," and found a lot of gems in it. The chapters cover playing in odd time signatures, style analysis of the great jazz drummers, sticking exercises, and more. It's an advanced book, well worth the price.

Perhaps the best part of the book is the introductory essay by Riley on how a rhythm section should work--essential reading for drummers new to playing jazz.

[DrummerDavid]

Looks like I am going to have to pick up some of these books.

[randrade89]

Hi, So I've gotten to the uptempo exercise on page 24. My question is : There are repeat signs on each exercise but on the CD he only plays each one once and then goes on the next one. How do you all do it?

[caddywumpus]

Originally Posted by randrade89

Hi, So I've gotten to the uptempo exercise on page 24. My question is : There are repeat signs on each exercise but on the CD he only plays each one once and then goes on the next one. How do you all do it?

The CD is there to demonstrate the different examples. If he would have repeated the examples, then there might not be enough room on the CD for everything. You should repeat the examples as needed for your personal development. If something doesn't feel comfortable to you, repeat it a few more times and come back to that exercise every time you practice until it does.

[randrade89]

Hey thanks for the info, but what I meant was that when I'm going through the whole 6 page endurance exercise, should I repeat each 4 bar phrase before I go on to the next one? Because Ive been doing that but I got stuck at 145 bpm, I just cant do it. And I thought maybe you're only supposed to play each exercise one time.

I hope I explained myself well...

Thanks

[randrade89]

Anyone? ................................

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Originally Posted by randrade89

Hey thanks for the info, but what I meant was that when I'm going through the whole 6 page endurance exercise, should I repeat each 4 bar phrase before I go on to the next one? Because Ive been doing that but I got stuck at 145 bpm, I just cant do it. And I thought maybe you're only supposed to play each exercise one time.

I hope I explained myself well...

Thanks

What do the instructions say?
Casper