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  #41  
Old 01-28-2009, 06:16 AM
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Default Re: Coated Ambassador drum head

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect View Post
Buddy Rich and Louie Bellson were playing big band music. While technically part of the jazz family the needs are very different than small group jazz. You would be very hard pressed to use anything bigger than a 20" and still get authentic, stylistically appropriate sounds.

As for the rock dudes, using the small drums, I have tried the EMAD and other similar heads and they just don't sound right. It can be done but there is a lot of compromise to do it.
What about Tony Williams? I don't think he used anything other than a 24" for quite sometime. Max Roach when he was with Ludwig? Mickey Roker? These guys didn't use 18" bass drums exclusively. Neither did Art Blakey! Yeah, he automatically sucks for not having an 18" bass drum!

Yes, if you are purist, then an 18" bass drum is all you will ever use. And it will say Gretsch on it and be a round badge and cost you a fortune. The hardware will be crap by today's standards.

And if you are purist, then your eighties drum kit will be mamoth have blankets in the kick drum(s) and pinstripes with deadringers on the toms (both sides) and some unknown snare drum head with gobbs of duct tape on the snare. You will also spend more money on makeup than any supermodel and spend more time setting up at a gig than you did in the car actually getting there! Am I being ridiculous -SURE just as is this argument that in order to be a proper jazz player, a drummer MUST have a Gretsch round badge kit consisting of an 18" Bass Drum, a 12" tom, a 14" Floor tom with no more than three cymbals or they aren't really a jazz drummer! I was in a band in college with another drummer by the name of Trevon who played a Tama Rockstar kit and 30 minutes of listening to him play would make your head swim. And he didn't care about having the 18" bass drum!

I will agree with you about the EMAD as they tend to have a click sound and not much else. And that was my impression form the sound board - lots of high end and no meat to the drum - and this was on a 22" bass drum!


Mike

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  #42  
Old 01-28-2009, 06:44 AM
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Default Re: Coated Ambassador drum head

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Originally Posted by dkerwood View Post
I was just talking about the extremes. You wouldn't reasonably show up to play jazz with a marching snare or popcorn snare. You probably wouldn't show up to play that same gig with a 22" china and a 10" splash. How about an electronic kick? You could play, sure, but unless you're playing some crazy progressive jazz, the bandleader would probably not ask you back (if he's interested in a traditional sound).
Actually the 22" China works well as I saw drummer in a lounge act in Vegas at the Gold Coast while I was on tour with a Country act. It was a cheap Wuhan and the drummer used it tastefully as an alternate ride cymbal sound, as did my teacher, Paul Bowman on some of his gigs. Bandleaders aren't always right; some are just interested in playing out their little-league football coach fantasy on everyone who is willing to take it. I would give you an example in my life from last month, but that is peripheral to this discussion.

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Originally Posted by dkerwood View Post


I'm not talking about using "abnormal" gear and miking or tuning to make it sound "normal"- I'm totally in favor of that. I'm simply saying that there are some sonic expectations of certain genres.
Certainly....and I have also seen great drummers go into a situation with the "socially unacceptable gear" and sound like a million bucks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dkerwood View Post


I've lost jazz bass gigs to other guys just because I play electric instead of upright bass. I could have played those gigs as well (if not better) as those other guys, but the bandleader wanted that SOUND.
It more than likely was their loss.


Is one thing to tell a bandleader that you play upright bass but show up with an electric and I am not saying that you, personally did that. In my little world, there isn't enough good paying jazz work to justify having the "proper" equipment; I make do with what I have - they say DW on them. And I don't think that they audience is savy enough to care. They see drums and hear drums which is good enough for them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dkerwood View Post
If you want to be progressive, you can do whatever you want. If your interest is working a lot, though, you need to embrace some "standards" and try to do what you can to sound "normal" for the genre.
Actually, I do work a lot mainly because I am plyable, play dynamics appropriately and have a good skill set to draw from. However, some bandleaders believe that if a drummer shows up with more than two toms and three cymbals, that the drummer is being a jerk. And this a band which plays songs like Separate Ways, Don't Stop Believing and other songs on which more than a four piece drum kit was used. Some bandleaders have aneed to make certain that everyone around "knows" that the bandleader is the only smart person in the whole wide world - believe me, i have had to work with too many of these jerks. These guys, by the way, spend a lot of time complaining how the world isn't fair, can't play anything that isn't in the real book and fall flat on their face when trying to play Mustang Sally.

Me - I prefer to copy the drum part note for note myself; it comes in handy ocassionally like when you play it that way and then happen to see Steve Smith standing next to the stage, not mention it makes for a good reference point for the rest of the band and lets them relax and do their job.

And sometimes, your statement of being interested in working a lot, means being a really good drinking buddy, which I am not. I like to spend my money on the best gear I can afford or something really stupid like keeping a roof over my head, not on placating some guy who's mad at the world because he didn't get breastfed at birth.


As much as you think that I am arguing with you, I actually agree with what you are saying. My point is though, that it is supposed to be about the music and not a brand or an appearance or what the bandleader thinks is best. We can thank MTV for all of this crap!

Yes, I have diareaha of the mouth right now and I am venting just a little right now.


Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
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  #43  
Old 01-28-2009, 01:30 PM
TheArchitect
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Default Re: Coated Ambassador drum head

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skitch View Post
What about Tony Williams? I don't think he used anything other than a 24" for quite sometime. Max Roach when he was with Ludwig? Mickey Roker? These guys didn't use 18" bass drums exclusively. Neither did Art Blakey! Yeah, he automatically sucks for not having an 18" bass drum!

Yes, if you are purist, then an 18" bass drum is all you will ever use. And it will say Gretsch on it and be a round badge and cost you a fortune. The hardware will be crap by today's standards.

And if you are purist, then your eighties drum kit will be mamoth have blankets in the kick drum(s) and pinstripes with deadringers on the toms (both sides) and some unknown snare drum head with gobbs of duct tape on the snare. You will also spend more money on makeup than any supermodel and spend more time setting up at a gig than you did in the car actually getting there! Am I being ridiculous -SURE just as is this argument that in order to be a proper jazz player, a drummer MUST have a Gretsch round badge kit consisting of an 18" Bass Drum, a 12" tom, a 14" Floor tom with no more than three cymbals or they aren't really a jazz drummer! I was in a band in college with another drummer by the name of Trevon who played a Tama Rockstar kit and 30 minutes of listening to him play would make your head swim. And he didn't care about having the 18" bass drum!

I will agree with you about the EMAD as they tend to have a click sound and not much else. And that was my impression form the sound board - lots of high end and no meat to the drum - and this was on a 22" bass drum!


Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw
Whatever man. If you can't find the point I ain't drawing you a map.
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  #44  
Old 01-28-2009, 07:54 PM
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dkerwood dkerwood is offline
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Default Re: Coated Ambassador drum head

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skitch View Post
Actually the 22" China works well as I saw drummer in a lounge act in Vegas at the Gold Coast while I was on tour with a Country act. It was a cheap Wuhan and the drummer used it tastefully as an alternate ride cymbal sound, as did my teacher, Paul Bowman on some of his gigs.
Hmm... extract foot from mouth here. Not sure why I typed 22" china... Actually, the first time I ever properly heard a china (aside from the $5 12" ones that everybody bought and then stored in their closet ever since) was in college jazz band. It was a 22" Wuhan with rivets. Man, for some reason, that sucker sounded CHOICE. I've been searching for that sound ever since, and the only thing that has come close is a 20" K Custom hybrid... ah, but I digress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skitch View Post
Is one thing to tell a bandleader that you play upright bass but show up with an electric and I am not saying that you, personally did that. In my little world, there isn't enough good paying jazz work to justify having the "proper" equipment; I make do with what I have - they say DW on them. And I don't think that they audience is savy enough to care. They see drums and hear drums which is good enough for them.
And 90% of the time, I think that's absolutely true. The audience doesn't know anything about 4- versus 5-, 6-, or 7-piece. I think they might notice if someone set up a double bass hair metal kit with matching chinas up above and a gong behind... :-) They'd also notice if you came out wearing the leather, spandex, and eyeshadow to match.

I'm just saying there's an aesthetic to consider, both in sound and visually. You can usually make anything you own work in the music if you're flexible and adaptable. I'm simply pointing out that in some extreme ends of genres, there is a serious expectation of how things should sound and how things should look. Right or wrong, that's just reality.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Skitch View Post
Actually, I do work a lot mainly because I am plyable, play dynamics appropriately and have a good skill set to draw from. However, some bandleaders believe that if a drummer shows up with more than two toms and three cymbals, that the drummer is being a jerk. And this a band which plays songs like Separate Ways, Don't Stop Believing and other songs on which more than a four piece drum kit was used. Some bandleaders have aneed to make certain that everyone around "knows" that the bandleader is the only smart person in the whole wide world - believe me, i have had to work with too many of these jerks. These guys, by the way, spend a lot of time complaining how the world isn't fair, can't play anything that isn't in the real book and fall flat on their face when trying to play Mustang Sally.
If you come out and do things appropriately, you'll generally be ok (as you obviously know). From a guitar standpoint, I totally understand. You show up to a church worship gig with a Flying V guitar, an Iceman, or even an SG, and some people will find it inappropriate. Show up to a metal gig with a Gibson 335 hollowbody, and people will scoff. Bring a board full of effect pedals to a jazz gig, and people will think that guitarist is being a jerk. Trust me, I know.

I sometimes look at it, though, and discover that maybe I am being a bit of a jerk... or at the very least, a gear nerd. If I'm playing a jazz drum gig, do I really need seven cymbals splayed out around me? Probably not. If I'm playing a jazz guitar gig, do I really need that heavy distortion pedal? Almost unequivocally NO. Sometimes I bring out the full rig, which arguably contains a lot of overkill, but I do it because I want to have as many creative tools at my disposal as possible. Sometimes, though, I know that I won't be able to use those tools appropriately, no matter how creative I want to try being.

Now, of course some guys who write out the checks for musicians will be jerks. That's their prerogative since they're writing out the checks. If we as hired guns don't care for it, we just don't take the gig next time. Because I just moved to a new city and am trying to build a new reputation, I tend to play it safe and bring out the gear that is generally appropriate. Then as I learn the specific situation, I'll expand as I find it appropriate. If some leader wants to tell me that my 22" bass drum isn't appropriate because jazz uses 18", or that my Ambassador heads are wrong because I need authentic calfskin... Well, I guess I just won't answer that call the next time, because I'm certainly not going to buy a new kick or bother with changing heads between every gig.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skitch View Post
And sometimes, your statement of being interested in working a lot, means being a really good drinking buddy, which I am not. I like to spend my money on the best gear I can afford or something really stupid like keeping a roof over my head, not on placating some guy who's mad at the world because he didn't get breastfed at birth.

As much as you think that I am arguing with you, I actually agree with what you are saying. My point is though, that it is supposed to be about the music and not a brand or an appearance or what the bandleader thinks is best. We can thank MTV for all of this crap!
Nah, it was around wayyy before MTV. MTV just packaged the whole thing and presented it in one bite-sized portion at a time.

My simple point is this: You can make the guy who writes the checks happy, or you can make yourself happy with your personal philosophy. If you can do both though, then EVERYBODY is happy.
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  #45  
Old 01-29-2009, 04:19 AM
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Default Re: Coated Ambassador drum head

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect View Post
Whatever man. If you can't find the point I ain't drawing you a map.

Geez...I was think the same thing about you simply because you have close-minded, identity-foreclosed, myopic view which isn't open to any possibilities other than what some marketing department tells you to believe! I show up and do my job with the gear I have; if that isn't good enough for the Grestch or jazz snobs in the crowd - so be it!

Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
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  #46  
Old 01-29-2009, 04:23 AM
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Default Re: Coated Ambassador drum head

Quote:
Originally Posted by dkerwood View Post
Hmm... extract foot from mouth here. Not sure why I typed 22" china... Actually, the first time I ever properly heard a china (aside from the $5 12" ones that everybody bought and then stored in their closet ever since) was in college jazz band. It was a 22" Wuhan with rivets. Man, for some reason, that sucker sounded CHOICE. I've been searching for that sound ever since, and the only thing that has come close is a 20" K Custom hybrid... ah, but I digress.


And 90% of the time, I think that's absolutely true. The audience doesn't know anything about 4- versus 5-, 6-, or 7-piece. I think they might notice if someone set up a double bass hair metal kit with matching chinas up above and a gong behind... :-) They'd also notice if you came out wearing the leather, spandex, and eyeshadow to match.

I'm just saying there's an aesthetic to consider, both in sound and visually. You can usually make anything you own work in the music if you're flexible and adaptable. I'm simply pointing out that in some extreme ends of genres, there is a serious expectation of how things should sound and how things should look. Right or wrong, that's just reality.




If you come out and do things appropriately, you'll generally be ok (as you obviously know). From a guitar standpoint, I totally understand. You show up to a church worship gig with a Flying V guitar, an Iceman, or even an SG, and some people will find it inappropriate. Show up to a metal gig with a Gibson 335 hollowbody, and people will scoff. Bring a board full of effect pedals to a jazz gig, and people will think that guitarist is being a jerk. Trust me, I know.

I sometimes look at it, though, and discover that maybe I am being a bit of a jerk... or at the very least, a gear nerd. If I'm playing a jazz drum gig, do I really need seven cymbals splayed out around me? Probably not. If I'm playing a jazz guitar gig, do I really need that heavy distortion pedal? Almost unequivocally NO. Sometimes I bring out the full rig, which arguably contains a lot of overkill, but I do it because I want to have as many creative tools at my disposal as possible. Sometimes, though, I know that I won't be able to use those tools appropriately, no matter how creative I want to try being.

Now, of course some guys who write out the checks for musicians will be jerks. That's their prerogative since they're writing out the checks. If we as hired guns don't care for it, we just don't take the gig next time. Because I just moved to a new city and am trying to build a new reputation, I tend to play it safe and bring out the gear that is generally appropriate. Then as I learn the specific situation, I'll expand as I find it appropriate. If some leader wants to tell me that my 22" bass drum isn't appropriate because jazz uses 18", or that my Ambassador heads are wrong because I need authentic calfskin... Well, I guess I just won't answer that call the next time, because I'm certainly not going to buy a new kick or bother with changing heads between every gig.

Nah, it was around wayyy before MTV. MTV just packaged the whole thing and presented it in one bite-sized portion at a time.

My simple point is this: You can make the guy who writes the checks happy, or you can make yourself happy with your personal philosophy. If you can do both though, then EVERYBODY is happy.

Like I said, I really am on your side on this; it is just good to think outside the box every once in a while. After all, there once was a philosophy which said that a drummer would never be able to use a Trick throw-off on a Ludwig snare. Certainly, I believe in keeping the guy who writes the checks happy - that's why I work so much! And I will do that until I am the guy who writes the checks! Then I will fire myself!


Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw
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  #47  
Old 02-06-2009, 10:26 PM
lewisn27
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Default Re: Coated Ambassador drum head

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Originally Posted by caddywumpus View Post
Why, don't you like switching out your heads? I do. I get this huge rush from getting new sounds from the same drums.
Yeah, I get excited when I take a new head out the box, it's kind of weird.
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