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  #1  
Old 12-16-2008, 02:33 AM
grsweeney grsweeney is offline
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Default help! modular vs L-arm

Hi all-

just got a order from Ludwig they mistakenly gave me a modular mount on my 13" rack tom when i ordered a vibraband mount with no mount on the drum. i have heard time and again not to drill holes in drums but while i think the vibrabands are great, personally I would prefer the mount on the drum. an L-arm or I believe it's called elite mount is less obtrusive with no hole in the shell. I am an 80's guy and remember the modular mounts fondly although i frequently hear people say they are undesirable. I am now aware that the new Ludwig order form has discontinued the double braced double modular tom stand and I'd have to get a Pearl, I'm not sure they are even exactly the same size. oui. sooooo, I am looking for advice on what do do. Ludwig will remake the drum for me with or w/o a mount and i have to pull the trigger tomorrow morning. or i can keep the Tom. note i will be ordering a 12" and will be looking at 12" & 13" toms on a double stand, modular or elite. I would really appreciate any advice or opinions.
best,
Greg
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  #2  
Old 12-16-2008, 02:44 AM
trkdrmr
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Default Re: help! modular vs L-arm

We were just discussing the very topic.

The modular was "not desirable" because some people thought it was too heavy. And the original protruded into the shell. The current model is surface mount. And it offers the same suspension mount benefits as the L-rod, but has a MUCH more stable and secure stand.

The elite is rubbish. Get a Tama if you go L-arm.
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Old 12-16-2008, 02:48 AM
grsweeney grsweeney is offline
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Default Re: help! modular vs L-arm

hi trkdrmr
well there is definitely a hole in the drum, it is the old school mount drilled onto the drum and not a suspension mount. still sounds good. thoughts? and thank you!
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Old 12-16-2008, 02:51 AM
trkdrmr
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Default Re: help! modular vs L-arm

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Originally Posted by grsweeney View Post
hi trkdrmr
well there is definitely a hole in the drum, it is the old school mount drilled onto the drum and not a suspension mount. still sounds good. thoughts? and thank you!
Unfortunately... the penalty paid for a modular arm entering the shell is to dry out the shell sound and of course the harware plate will act like a clamp. The shells will not be as resonant as with the surface-mount or suspension mount.

I read in MD where a guy went from the intrusive modular mounts to RIMS mount, and he said it made the drums really sing out.
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Old 12-16-2008, 03:21 AM
grsweeney grsweeney is offline
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Default Re: help! modular vs L-arm

thanks again trkdrmr-

i am still a little confused as to the difference between surface mount and suspension mount. i am guessing surface mount is a hardware plate on the actual drum with no hole in the drum. in which case, I am surprised that Ludwig would drill the hole (this order was filled last week) if the modular had a surface mount option (modular hardware plate on drum w/o the arm protruding into the drum) unless the only available surface mount sans hole is an L-arm hardware plate. i am aware that the suspension mounts have a modular hardware plate option, this is what I actually ordered and they (because of a faulty order form) accidently put the mount on the drum. If I don't go suspension hoops would you highly recommend the L-arm mount on the drum (no hole) as opposed to the modular arm in the drum? much appreciation 4 your time.

Greg
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  #6  
Old 12-16-2008, 04:04 AM
trkdrmr
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Default Re: help! modular vs L-arm

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Originally Posted by grsweeney View Post
thanks again trkdrmr-

i am still a little confused as to the difference between surface mount and suspension mount. i am guessing surface mount is a hardware plate on the actual drum with no hole in the drum. in which case, I am surprised that Ludwig would drill the hole (this order was filled last week) if the modular had a surface mount option (modular hardware plate on drum w/o the arm protruding into the drum) unless the only available surface mount sans hole is an L-arm hardware plate. i am aware that the suspension mounts have a modular hardware plate option, this is what I actually ordered and they (because of a faulty order form) accidently put the mount on the drum. If I don't go suspension hoops would you highly recommend the L-arm mount on the drum (no hole) as opposed to the modular arm in the drum? much appreciation 4 your time.

Greg

The three mounts:

1. Old school modular: the mounting rod enters the shell through a hole. There is a bulky mounting plate clamped to the shell that the arm goes through. Big, heavy like a clamp.


2. Surface mount: where a bracket/clamp is screwed on to the outside of the shell. The l-arm is secured in the clamp outside the drum.


3. RIMS: RIMS just attaches to the top of the drum, under the hoop. It uses the tension rods to hold it in place under the hoop. The L-rod or modular arm goes into a clamp or holder on the RIMS mount. The shell has no mounting hardware on it.

Last edited by trkdrmr; 12-16-2008 at 06:36 AM.
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  #7  
Old 12-16-2008, 05:17 AM
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harryconway harryconway is offline
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Default Re: help! modular vs L-arm

If Ludwig will make you new drums, I'd go for virgin shells. I RIMS mount all my rack toms. And all my RIMS have Yamaha tom mounts on them. With this system, I can run a Ludwig, Rogers, Slingerland, Gretsch, DW, Camco, Yamaha, Tama, Pearl, etc, you name it rack tom. No non-factory holes ever need to be drilled. (factory hardware can be removed and re-attached). The Ludwig Vibra-Band is almost a clone of the RIMS. That Elite mount (P7185AP) is a fairly large piece if steel. I wouldn't want that bolted to the shell. Better to go with the "old style" P1216D if you want the retro look. Ludwig modular stuff takes 1" pipe. I had a 15x12 with a modular mount. And without a doubt, it's robust. But that big mount has a big backing plate which attaches to the inside of the drum. And the Pearl tom arms, (like the TH88) are 7/8" pipe, so Ludwig and Pearl not so compatible..........another thing to consider. Resale value. A "virgin" drum will almost always have higher re-sale value. A secondary buyer has an "open field" with a virgin drum, where as once holes have been drilled and a mount has been installed, it is what it is.
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Old 12-16-2008, 05:24 AM
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Default Re: help! modular vs L-arm

I'm not 100% sure about the specs on the Ludwig modular arms but i think they're 3/4" which means that they are not compatible with Pearl tom arms (7/8"). My advice to you is to get a suspension mount for virgin drums. Any time hardware penetrates the shell and becomes integral with the suspension it deadens the resonance of the drum. Even brands like Pulse use them now, i'm surprised that a company like Ludwig doesn't make them standard.

edit: looks like harryconway's got the scoop on me. 1" pipe for those moduar arms, iknew it was off bylike an 1/8th
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  #9  
Old 12-16-2008, 07:37 AM
grsweeney grsweeney is offline
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Default Re: help! modular vs L-arm

thank you guys, really means a lot to get the feedback. incredibly helpful and on my way to a decision armed with facts, insight, and valued opinions.

Best,
Greg
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  #10  
Old 03-23-2009, 12:04 AM
Cast Cast is offline
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Default Re: help! modular vs L-arm

i'am also having trouble with this. I want a virgin tom shell with vibrabands but i don't understand how you have w/ vibraband w/p7185AP Elite MT or the other options. Won't that devirginize the drum? Can someone help me with this?
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  #11  
Old 03-23-2009, 08:05 PM
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KarlCrafton KarlCrafton is offline
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Default Re: help! modular vs L-arm

The Elite mount is placed on the Vibraband not the drum if you order a drum w/a Vibraband and a mounting bracket. They may even arrive un-assembled and the mount might have to be put on the band (by you or the drumshop).

You can also order it with a Vibraband and no mount, and buy which ever mount you like to put on the band.

The comment calling the Elite mounting bracket rubish is rubish.

It's a very sturdy piece, and is easily equal to the DW TB-12 (which lists at $59.99!).

The Elite mount has a smaller opening and goes on a smaller L-arm than the DW, but it's actually a bit heftier than the DW mount.
It can however open enough to be placed on the larger L-arm.

Here's the Elite mount from the back:



If someone wanted this Elite mount on a drum (as was part of the original posting), I'd doubt it's going to have MUCH effect on the resonance. You'd tweek the tuning after it's on a stand (or bass drum), but you usually have to tweek a tom after it gets on a stand with a RIMS mount anyway because when you put a drum on a stand it always sound a little different even with a RIMS.

It has no effect on the resonance or tone on any of the floor toms I have (a lot--9), and they all have a full clear tone.

I always bought the actual RIMS Gauger made product over the Ludwig Vibrabands as I feel the RIMS were nicer and offer more adjustability--especially now that they have the move-able rod mounting/holding thingys (that's the technical name of it of course).

Good luck with your drums.
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  #12  
Old 03-25-2009, 12:06 AM
Cast Cast is offline
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Default Re: help! modular vs L-arm

Thank you very much for your in depth post Karl!
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  #13  
Old 03-27-2009, 12:40 AM
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Deathmetalconga Deathmetalconga is offline
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Default Re: help! modular vs L-arm

I've seen fistfights break out here over arguments about suspension mounting vs. shell mounting.

To me, suspension mounting doesn't seem to make a huge difference. But I have all suspension mounting (including the bass drum - no spurs) because I want to minimize penetrations into the shell.
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  #14  
Old 10-15-2009, 04:28 PM
26kick 26kick is offline
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Default Re: help! modular vs L-arm

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlCrafton View Post
The Elite mount is placed on the Vibraband not the drum if you order a drum w/a Vibraband and a mounting bracket. They may even arrive un-assembled and the mount might have to be put on the band (by you or the drumshop).

You can also order it with a Vibraband and no mount, and buy which ever mount you like to put on the band.

The comment calling the Elite mounting bracket rubish is rubish.

It's a very sturdy piece, and is easily equal to the DW TB-12 (which lists at $59.99!).

The Elite mount has a smaller opening and goes on a smaller L-arm than the DW, but it's actually a bit heftier than the DW mount.
It can however open enough to be placed on the larger L-arm.

Here's the Elite mount from the back:



If someone wanted this Elite mount on a drum (as was part of the original posting), I'd doubt it's going to have MUCH effect on the resonance. You'd tweek the tuning after it's on a stand (or bass drum), but you usually have to tweek a tom after it gets on a stand with a RIMS mount anyway because when you put a drum on a stand it always sound a little different even with a RIMS.

It has no effect on the resonance or tone on any of the floor toms I have (a lot--9), and they all have a full clear tone.

I always bought the actual RIMS Gauger made product over the Ludwig Vibrabands as I feel the RIMS were nicer and offer more adjustability--especially now that they have the move-able rod mounting/holding thingys (that's the technical name of it of course).

Good luck with your drums.
Bringing back an old thread here...

Quick question, is the hole pattern on the Elite tom brackets the same as the classic/vintage tom brackets? I'm looking for something a little more robust so I can use the 10.5mm ball/L-rods.

Thanks!
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  #15  
Old 10-16-2009, 11:35 PM
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Default Re: help! modular vs L-arm

Quote:
Originally Posted by trkdrmr View Post
The three mounts:

1. Old school modular: the mounting rod enters the shell through a hole. There is a bulky mounting plate clamped to the shell that the arm goes through. Big, heavy like a clamp.


2. Surface mount: where a bracket/clamp is screwed on to the outside of the shell. The l-arm is secured in the clamp outside the drum.


3. RIMS: RIMS just attaches to the top of the drum, under the hoop. It uses the tension rods to hold it in place under the hoop. The L-rod or modular arm goes into a clamp or holder on the RIMS mount. The shell has no mounting hardware on it.
Not to sound too picky, but RIMS stands for Resonance Isolation Mounting System, a trademark of Gary Gauger, who invented this system in the late 1970s. Now, just about every manufacturer has their own version and they're often called suspension mounting systems. DWs mount to the lugs and Tamas mount to the Optimount rim.

They're all great in their own ways but RIMS is Gauger's deal. This is what I use, so personally I think they're the best.
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  #16  
Old 10-19-2009, 06:13 PM
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KarlCrafton KarlCrafton is offline
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Default Re: help! modular vs L-arm

NO, the hole pattern for the Elite mount is not the same as the Classic.

If you don't mind elongating the top hole a little, it will then fit.
I did mine with a round file.

Just do the TOP hole (drum upright), that way all the brackets still line up in the 'original' spot on a Floor tom.

On a Rack tom, I'd elongate the bottom hole (drum upright).

It's probably 1/16th difference.

I changed all mine over on my older floor toms.

The screw washers cover the hole anyway.
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  #17  
Old 10-20-2009, 04:06 PM
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volvoguy volvoguy is offline
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Default Re: help! modular vs L-arm

Quote:
Originally Posted by trkdrmr View Post
We were just discussing the very topic.The elite is rubbish. Get a Tama if you go L-arm.
Wrong. I've had mine for 12 years, holding up a 9x13" tom. Set it and forget it.

-Ryan
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Old 10-20-2009, 04:22 PM
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Default Re: help! modular vs L-arm

Quote:
Originally Posted by grsweeney View Post
thanks again trkdrmr-

i am still a little confused as to the difference between surface mount and suspension mount. i am guessing surface mount is a hardware plate on the actual drum with no hole in the drum. in which case, I am surprised that Ludwig would drill the hole (this order was filled last week) if the modular had a surface mount option (modular hardware plate on drum w/o the arm protruding into the drum) unless the only available surface mount sans hole is an L-arm hardware plate. i am aware that the suspension mounts have a modular hardware plate option, this is what I actually ordered and they (because of a faulty order form) accidently put the mount on the drum. If I don't go suspension hoops would you highly recommend the L-arm mount on the drum (no hole) as opposed to the modular arm in the drum? much appreciation 4 your time.

Greg
Here's the Elite Tom Mount (7/8" w/ 9.5 L-arm) as mounted to the drum on my Classic Maples:



This works just fine, looks fine, and the tom sounds great. Floor toms use the same brackets for the legs. One thing I laugh about is the push for "virgin" bass drums for increased resonance, then half of the folks with them fill the drum up with blankets. Suspension mounts have their utility (I think my 12" Element SE Tom opens up a bit with the suspension mount), but bass drum tom holders are just so much more practical than mounting toms on cymbal stands, IMHO.

In the end, if Ludwig didn't give you exactly what you ordered, have them send you a replacement.

Good luck!
-Ryan
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Old 10-21-2009, 04:35 AM
26kick 26kick is offline
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Default Re: help! modular vs L-arm

I was the one who revived the thread.

I ended up getting an elite tom mount bracket and replacing the "classic"/vintage one on my tom. I've also switched to a ball mount with a 10.5mm L-rod.

This pair/system is working extremely well. Couldn't be happier. If it stands the test of time as well as Ryan's (previous post), then it will be far from rubbish, and not really that expensive either, compared to some other drum company hardware.

Now all I need is one of those memory locks for the rod as it enters the bass drum. The bass drum bracket/mount is a newer one that has the notch for the memory lock that will keep it from twisting in addition to "sinking".


Cheers!
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Old 10-21-2009, 05:24 AM
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Default Re: help! modular vs L-arm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 26kick View Post
I was the one who revived the thread.
Now all I need is one of those memory locks for the rod as it enters the bass drum. The bass drum bracket/mount is a newer one that has the notch for the memory lock that will keep it from twisting in addition to "sinking".
Cheers!
Good to hear! Ludwig has parts catalogs on their website in PDF format. I've had really good luck finding Ludwig parts stupid cheap from Drums on Sale (.com). Search the p/n. Might take a week or two, but it's worth it. The genuine Ludwig stuff is a bit cheaper than the generic Gibraltar equivalent.

-Ryan
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  #21  
Old 10-23-2009, 01:41 PM
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Default Re: help! modular vs L-arm

Hey Volvoguy, what year is your classic maples? The hardware you have on yours is the original classic style with the updated wing nuts, instead of the horrible hexhead screws I had on my mid 70's 3 plies. The Elite hardware is the newest version that takes the 10.5mm L-rods instead of the 9.5mm rods. Those brackets are more square, and the bass drum tom mount plates are different too. When I built my Keller kit, the tom brackets I got from Drummaker turned out to be exactly the same as the newer Ludwig mounts, so I wonder if Gibraltar makes all of Ludwig's newer hardware, as I know they make alot of the generic parts found on the drum builder supply sites. It's high quality stuff, though. I do believe you can still get the Ludwig classic mounts/brackets by special order.
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  #22  
Old 10-23-2009, 04:51 PM
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Default Re: help! modular vs L-arm

My Maples are from 1997. Looking at MassMusic and the Ludwig Catalogs, I think I misspoke: I don't have the Elite, but rather the *Rocker* Single Mount. 9.5mm (Ludwig p/n LR2981MT). That name rings a distant bell in the back of my head from when I ordered the kit. It's a nice mount, and dirt cheap... I'm thinking of putting one on my New Element SE kit.

I too have suspected a Gibraltar connection with Ludwig's hardware. Especially on the import kits. Too many similarities. The new rail mounts on Ludwig and Gretsch kits are definitely Gibraltar.

-Ryan
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