Time keepers or creative drummers

[The Keith Moon]

AC/DC, Rolling stones, etc..... seem to have Time Keeping drummers. I know they dont use click track but the drumming seems so simple and it feels like they are there just for the time keeping, which seems boring to me.
Can you suggest any other drummers (or albums) other than Keith Moon, Ian Paice (Old purple albums) who plays more than just time keeping or who go out of the way and being creative every now and then?

[Ian Williams]

Time keeping is an important and integral part of drumming. Phil Rudd, Charlie Watts, Ringo Starr are good time keepers.
During an interview to Nicko McBrain ~ Iron Maiden, he stated that his favourite drummers are: Ringo Starr, Charlie Watts, Ian Paice, Neil Peart.
Other time keepers and creative drummers as well, are:
Bill Ward.
Carmine Appice.
Cindy Blackman.
Ginger Baker.
John Tempesta.
Vinnie Appice.
John Densmore.
Nicko McBrain.
Roger Taylor.
Tommy Aldridge.
Phil Maturano.

[Wavelength]

There you go!

[GRUNTERSDAD]

Your description of this type of drumming, as boring, seems to be contradictory to your signature!!!

And the drummer can only be as creative as the music.

[aydee]

You do have a strange way of looking at music & drumming, Mr. Moon.

Would you really prefer that Nicko McBrain play Honky Tonk Women over Charlie Watts?

By creative drummers if you mean guys who can do drumming gymnastics and have chops coming out of their ears, look up the drummerworld list of drummers/videos/sound samples.

[rockitman]

The Keith Moon,

The time keeping on the Rolling Stones and AC DC records are pretty creative in thier own respect. Keeping in mind that the phrasing of these simple rhythms are not likely to be duplicated without some work. Staying in the pocket is usually the hardest thing for many young drummers. That being said, there is alot that can be learned from these recordings.

If your looking for creativity, I would point you in the direction of Gavin Harrison or Vinnie Coulaiuta, Tony Williams and Jo Jo Mayer come to mind as well. But really. Are you going to actually try to comp these guys, or just steal an idea or two. If you're a novice drummer and are looking for ways to keep your playing fresh the PAS 40 is a wonderful resource.

[The Keith Moon]

Originally Posted by rockitman

The Keith Moon,

The time keeping on the Rolling Stones and AC DC records are pretty creative in thier own respect. Keeping in mind that the phrasing of these simple rhythms are not likely to be duplicated without some work. .

honestly I find it very easy to play along the stones/AC/dc records and find it hard to copy Nicko McBrain or Keith Moon.

[The Keith Moon]

Originally Posted by aydee

You do have a strange way of looking at music & drumming, Mr. Moon.

Would you really prefer that Nicko McBrain play Honky Tonk Women over Charlie Watts?

By creative drummers if you mean guys who can do drumming gymnastics and have chops coming out of their ears, look up the drummerworld list of drummers/videos/sound samples.

In my honest opinion, Time keeping can be done by a machine or a phantom drummer. Its all about how creative you can get around with that time keeping , go out or in of that time keeping line every now and then, frequently, and come back to that time keeping, along with the vocals and Bass and guitar. Steady snare beats is all I could hear in 95% of the rock songs. How came no one comes up with some kind of a double steady snare beats or some kind of steady snare and tom tom beats or such??
I am just thinking out of the box. I know most of the drum teachers may get furious but honestly this is just a thought from a guy who gets bored with the same old steady snare beats. I think Keith moon was one of the folks who came out of that rut.

Jojo Mayer and folks like him in the drummerworld videos are playing solos!
I want to hear some one who plays like they are playing solos , along with the MUSIC!
If you listen to the first Five songs in "Piece of Mind- Iron Maiden" you know what I am talkng about. Nicko doesnt seem to sit still!!

(You folks may dis agree, this is how I think, "If my drumming can be duplicated by a drum machine, I dont think I have a future in drumming", they can fire me and buy a drum machine!.-- I am talking about Hard Rock, Hard Rock is not all about guitars licks but with frequent drum chops as well )

[geeza]

Originally Posted by The Keith Moon

AC/DC, Rolling stones, etc..... seem to have Time Keeping drummers. I know they dont use click track but the drumming seems so simple and it feels like they are there just for the time keeping, which seems boring to me.
Can you suggest any other drummers (or albums) other than Keith Moon, Ian Paice (Old purple albums) who plays more than just time keeping or who go out of the way and being creative every now and then?

I know plenty of drummers with lots of chops who get fired from gigs because of their attitude towards "simple boring drummers". I always play for the song and no matter how simple it seems, i drive that damn song with nothing but true passion and attitude. It maybe boring to you , but no ones ever accused me of looking bored when i'm pounding four on the floor. Give me a triangle or a tamborine and i'll work that damn thing.

[jonescrusher]

Originally Posted by The Keith Moon

I want to hear some one who plays like they are playing solos , along with the MUSIC!

God help us all if you go into record producing.....

[larryace]

The thing you don't mention about "just keeping time" is making the time "feel" good and groove, an important nuance. I hear you though. The stages I went through with blues were similar, at first I thought it was "boring". I just didn't "get it" After many unsuccessful attempts at making it "not boring" I realized that the steady pulse was the only thing that really moves this music along, and then I embraced it. There is plenty of room to get creative with a "boring" beat, by using dynamics, build ups, great changes from intros/verses/choruses/bridges/leads/tags/hooks etc. Restraint can be very teasing. It's not what you play so much as how you play it. Playing lead drums doesn't work most of the time. (Keith Moon excepted). But don't listen to us, follow your natural instincts, and do what you think is best, there's room for all.

[Deathmetalconga]

Originally Posted by geeza

I know plenty of drummers with lots of chops who get fired from gigs because of their attitude towards "simple boring drummers". I always play for the song and no matter how simple it seems, i drive that damn song with nothing but true passion and attitude. It maybe boring to you , but no ones ever accused me of looking bored when i'm pounding four on the floor. Give me a triangle or a tamborine and i'll work that damn thing.

Drummers are at the bottom of the musicians' pecking order. If everyone above says to play simply and have no chops or fills, then if you want to have a job, that's how you'll play.

If you look at the few drummers who have had their own bands, they call the shots and play the drums in a very flashy fashion, which is what I prefer as well. I have never cared much for drummers who play very simply. If I drummer is free to play with a lot of flash, it says something not only about their technical abilities, but also about their status as a musician in the group.

[aydee]

Originally Posted by The Keith Moon

In my honest opinion, Time keeping can be done by a machine or a phantom drummer.... this is just a thought from a guy who gets bored with the same old steady snare beats.

...I want to hear some one who plays like they are playing solos , along with the MUSIC!

I understand what you are saying, even though it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

By the way, drum machines can also create a lot of chops 'artificially'. Not a problem for drum machines... Is that something you might enjoy?

I think what you are saying is you want to hear a drummer play more notes than just a straight- up 4/4 rock beat? But what is a straight up 4/4 rock beat? Bonham, Paice, Watts, Densmore? Lars? Baker? That's a whole world within itself, right there.

Doesn't the music, song, tune dictate what EVERYBODY plays? The space each musician takes? Not just the drummer..

What about the chops that you feel but don't hear? The best kind of chops,imo...

What about those musical moments when the chop was there for the taking but the drummer chose not to play it, or just play part of it? The beauty and power of suggestion?... do you really want to hear 32nd note triplets flying all over the kit, again & again & again?

That is AS boring to me as a straight 4/4.

You are letting the tail wag the dog, my friend. Don't listen to the musician, listen to the music.


...................

[geeza]

Originally Posted by aydee

I understand what you are saying, even though it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

By the way, drum machines can also create a lot of chops 'artificially'. Not a problem for drum machines... Is that something you might enjoy?

I think what you are saying is you want to hear a drummer play more notes than just a straight- up 4/4 rock beat? But what is a straight up 4/4 rock beat? Bonham, Paice, Watts, Densmore? Lars? Baker? That's a whole world within itself, right there.

Doesn't the music, song, tune dictate what EVERYBODY plays? The space each musician takes? Not just the drummer..

What about the chops that you feel but don't hear? The best kind of chops,imo...

What about those musical moments when the chop was there for the taking but the drummer chose not to play it, or just play part of it? The beauty and power of suggestion?... do you really want to hear 32nd note triplets flying all over the kit, again & again & again?

That is AS boring to me as a straight 4/4.

You are letting the tail wag the dog, my friend. Don't listen to the musician, listen to the music.


...................

You are absolutely right my friend.

[geeza]

Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga

Drummers are at the bottom of the musicians' pecking order. If everyone above says to play simply and have no chops or fills, then if you want to have a job, that's how you'll play.

If you look at the few drummers who have had their own bands, they call the shots and play the drums in a very flashy fashion, which is what I prefer as well. I have never cared much for drummers who play very simply. If I drummer is free to play with a lot of flash, it says something not only about their technical abilities, but also about their status musician in the group.

So what you're saying is ,if i play simple then i have no real status as a musician. Hmmm? can you teach me some blast beats to play along with my Tom Petty records.

[DrummerDavid]

I have respect for all drummers who either play live..and/or were able to record. Pro..amature...ETC.

Whether they be some one like Neil oe someone like Charlie...If they play for the music, then they are good drummers in my book.


But, for some reasone-The only drummer I can't stand is Rikki Rocket.

For some reason.. I really don't know..I thinks it's his feel...

[VedranS]

Here are some drummers that come to mind who complex or dense rhythms as parts to their songs and (to me) make them feel like they belong there:
Danny Carey of Tool
Gavin Harrison of Porcupine Tree
Bill Bruford of King Crimson
Thomas Pridgen with The Mars Volta (yeah, it's a chops-fest, but so's what the rest of the band is playing...)
Mike Portnoy (again, it fits 'cause it's all chops all around)
Carter Beauford with Dave Mathews Band

That's pretty much all rock stuff, but if technical/complex/busy drumming is your thing, maybe you should check out some fusion for guys like Billy Cobham, Dave Weckl or Tony Williams... All great players who can play just about anything, including "steady boring snare beats". Or you could go and listen to some jazz music, while the drumming isn't (hopefully) a chops fest outside a solo context, you'll probably have a hard time finding too many "steady snare beats" unless it's Art Blakey :)

Or how about you listen to some Indian Tabla music, crazy technical complex beats, and not a snare to be heard ;-P

[jjmason777]

Originally Posted by DrummerDavid

But, for some reasone-The only drummer I can't stand is Rikki Rocket.

For some reason.. I really don't know..I thinks it's his feel...

That's funny, I actually think Rikki does a good job at what he does. But then again, the only drummer I can't stand is Keith Moon!

[Daphfz]

Listen to some songs by Nirvana, their drummer kept time, but also let creativity show in some of his fills/grooves and such. :)

[The Keith Moon]

at least I feel I have two folks who kind of agree with me and give encouragement, Thanks DeathmetalConga and Larryace.

I just want to be hated by drum teachers (Its not a sin) and regular drummers, thats all..... I mean Keith Moon made it though.

(Almost all drummers except Keith Moon seems the same to me)

[The Keith Moon]

Originally Posted by aydee

... do you really want to hear 32nd note triplets flying all over the kit, again & again & again?



...................

there you go... I may be one of the few who just made this a style! and got out of that steady 4/4 rut!

Please dont mis understand me, I dont want 10,000 tom toms either (Who tunes them, for gods sake!). All I want is one tom Tom and one floor tom and great cymbals(at least 6), again I dont want the spot light on me either. All I want is , when folks here the song, they should say, the drumming is different or the drumming stands out of all other regular 4/4 style.

I am kind of proud of the way Vinnie Appice did during the song Heaven and Hell Live, classic chops during the Iommi lead., however he had 100001 tom toms which was tuned by his drum technician)

[rockitman]

Originally Posted by The Keith Moon

honestly I find it very easy to play along the stones/AC/dc records and find it hard to copy Nicko McBrain or Keith Moon.

That's odd to me because I have often regarded Keith Moon and Nicko as motiff players. They have an arsenal of riffage in abundance. But they repeat alot of the same stuff over the years. Yes there are some exceptions which are obvious.

AC DC and Stones maybe easy to play along to. But that's not saying that your getting the feel correct. I'm not here to argue with anyone.
But if what I am saying is not striking a chord than there is some learning you need to do before you start expressing all over a piece of music.

[larryace]

I think the main thing is to play what YOU think the music needs. That's the great thing about drums, you can inject whatever you want into it. It will go probably one of 2 ways, either it will work or it won't. If you can make it work, as Keith most certainly did, then you will have a style that is uniquely you, which is a beautiful thing. I like that you have the conviction to do as you feel, confidence is essential, and don't let anyone squash your own personal style. I'd say follow your heart, but record yourself, and then decide if what you did works or not, as determined by you. Great thread.

[The Keith Moon]

Originally Posted by larryace

I think the main thing is to play what YOU think the music needs. That's the great thing about drums, you can inject whatever you want into it. It will go probably one of 2 ways, either it will work or it won't. If you can make it work, as Keith most certainly did, then you will have a style that is uniquely you, which is a beautiful thing. I like that you have the conviction to do as you feel, confidence is essential, and don't let anyone squash your own personal style. I'd say follow your heart, but record yourself, and then decide if what you did works or not, as determined by you. Great thread.

thanks again, friend.

(I think most folks think I have a bad attitude which I dont think I have, I am just thinking differently because I am tired and bored of seeing and hearing the same stuff, again I do have my utmost respect to all drummers here who stick to their own heart)
again.. I know I opened a can of worms.

... listen to Deep Purple The Battle Rages on , Paice was just a Time Keeper, none of the songs stick in my head.
listen to "The Rain Fell Down" the stones-- is that a machine???

[m1ck]

Originally Posted by geeza

... Give me a triangle or a tamborine and i'll work that damn thing.

Love your attitude, brother. That's the spirit of a real drummer, imo. I've clapped my hands, played my beer glass with a key and even clicked billiard balls at jam sessions. And my contributions were appreciated.

I recall reading somewhere - probably right here at DW - that Stewart Copeland boasted at some clinic that he could do something that very few modern drummers seem to be able to do, then proceeded to play a straight rock beat for 2 minutes. (Someone correct me if I have it wrong.)

He's a perfect example of a creative time-keeper. One of my all time favorite drummers.

[larryace]

Yea man, we need different thinkers. Hey, look at it like this...if Keith had listened to anyone telling him to "reign it in", we'd all be the poorer for it. I can see that you're getting resistance to your way of thinking, I will admit that it is a little left of center, but that's the point isn't it? Everyone here isn't against you, they are just relaying universal truths that are generally accepted, and are trying to help. But that isn't saying that there cannot be any "new" truths. Have at it man, you've got my support. Hey, maybe do a You Tube video where you could take a strait backbeat song of your choice and do it with your interpretation. Ruffling feathers is at the very core of rock and roll, and if you're ruffling feathers, you're getting reactions, and that's usually a good sign. It's never easy to be controversial. Everyone tends to want you to color inside the lines. You sound like you want to move the lines a little. I think it's cool. Of course you'd better be able to pull it off.

[The Keith Moon]

some of the minor creative chops that I can think of is the following, especially from Charley Watts (Stones)
1. the begining of Start me UP, it is reverse!
2. She is so cold-- when Mick sings "Pekenise"
3. The whole song u cant always get-- (drums by Jimmy Miller though)
4. Get off my cloud

because of these, as a "drum nut" , these songs do stick to my mind.

Bell Bottom Blues-- Eric Clapton on vocal, the whole song is backward drumming!
One world-- Stewart copeland doesnt seem to sit still, playing the octobans in a wild steady style!

when Kenny Jones played with The who , he was playing steady beats for "My Generation" which surprises me cause he was a creative chopper during his time in Faces. I think Keith would have felt sorry while playing along Jimi in heavens above!!

[Deathmetalconga]

Originally Posted by geeza

So what you're saying is ,if i play simple then i have no real status as a musician. Hmmm? can you teach me some blast beats to play along with my Tom Petty records.

That's one way of interpreting what I said. Another way is: Among other musicians and the public, drummers are the least respected musicians in Western music genres. And most of them play to meet that expectation. In other words, your status in the band and playing styles are linked to some degree.

[Wavelength]

Originally Posted by The Keith Moon

Listen to Deep Purple The Battle Rages on , Paice was just a Time Keeper, none of the songs stick in my head.

You should really develop an ear for melodies. Trust me, you'll start enjoying music a lot more.

[jonescrusher]

Got to call you out on your signature - how is jazz drumming about steady snare beats?

[The Keith Moon]

Originally Posted by Wavelength

You should really develop an ear for melodies. Trust me, you'll start enjoying music a lot more.

I got over the melodies long time back, my friend. I am thinking the song may sound "less dead" if the drummer chops every now and then.
Listen to Stones "Rough Justice" and "Let me down real slow" the first two songs on Stones Bigger Bang album, the drummer Mr. Watts changed tempo, thats it... the same old style.... simple.

I am starting to think, the bands should release hard rock albums with two drum versions, just simple steady beats, and with Keith moon type drumming for nuts like me......just a wild thought.

[The Keith Moon]

Originally Posted by geeza

Can you teach me some blast beats to play along with my Tom Petty records.

Stan Lynch is creative in "dont come around here anymore",thats it. ...but it sounds like electronic kit though.

We listeners have a right to listen to Tom Petty records with a different drum style....dont u think?

[The Keith Moon]

Always somewhere- Scorpions
They re mixed this track with new drums. At least Rudy Lenners did some chops in the original 70's version but the remixed version is so dead!, no chops at all and it sounds horrible.

the same problem with the remixed version of "Blind Man" by David Coverdale. and the remixed version of The Police- Dont Stnad so close to me!!!

[geeza]

Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga

That's one way of interpreting what I said. Another way is: Among other musicians and the public, drummers are the least respected musicians in Western music genres. And most of them play to meet that expectation. In other words, your status in the band and playing styles are linked to some degree.

With all due respect i can see somewhat where you're coming from. But wheather you're playing polyrythmic patterns or four on the floor without a single fill, i believe you will gain much respect from any true musician if you approach that song in the right manner. There's a time and a place for it all , and some of the best fills i ever heard were the ones that were'nt played at all. I have respect for all drummers as long as they play from the heart including you.

[The Keith Moon]

Even Keith Moon used programmable steady hi hats so that he could be creative on the drums. I like that ! I am not into playing steady hi hats either. They should all be programmed!!...again just a wild thought. ...

did i just open a can of worms?

[kwolf68]

Originally Posted by geeza

So what you're saying is ,if i play simple then i have no real status as a musician. Hmmm? can you teach me some blast beats to play along with my Tom Petty records.

LOL, this is actually funny.

My most hated drummer is Charlie Watts...he is simply awful to listen to and to watch. The Stones knew what they were doing though...Mick and Keith were the show and they didn't need someone with the chops of a Ginger Baker showing them up. So they got Watts, they knew NO ONE would care about him.

[The Keith Moon]

Originally Posted by kwolf68

LOL, this is actually funny.

My most hated drummer is Charlie Watts...he is simply awful to listen to and to watch. The Stones knew what they were doing though...Mick and Keith were the show and they didn't need someone with the chops of a Ginger Baker showing them up. So they got Watts, they knew NO ONE would care about him.

I agree 99%, (even though I dont hate anyone, ) just being in the stones made him famous. I do like his playing because it is damn easy to play along. Of Course he is a very respected guy. I dont think he can do chops like some of the folks in Drummerworld forum, and he does admit that. I dont see any special type of drumming in him, in fact watching him drum is not a good thing to watch, the way he strikes on the snare at the end of songs is like he is killing a snake with a stick! The stones became famous just because of the creative writing of Jagger and Richards and their bad boy image, (They were the first who did that, nowadays almost all the bands pose as bad boys, which is so boring... all second hand news news to me.).
Whenever Stones play "u cant always get live, charley plays simple beats, because the original was done by Jimmy Miller who is "up there" jamming with Brian Jones and John Lennon. Charley doesnt even play the way Sympathy for the devil, the way it was recorded.
After all, the stones themselves know whatever crap they do , there are millions of stones fanatics everywhere.


There is room for lot of chops in the song Wild Horses , memory Motel etc...... so it is damn easy to play along these songs and play some unpredictable rolls or chops.

I like the way Charley thinks of drum solos too.... boring.

If a non famous guy plays like Charley Watts, no one gives any credit.

[gcarlet]

Originally Posted by m1ck

Love your attitude, brother. That's the spirit of a real drummer, imo. I've clapped my hands, played my beer glass with a key and even clicked billiard balls at jam sessions. And my contributions were appreciated.

I recall reading somewhere - probably right here at DW - that Stewart Copeland boasted at some clinic that he could do something that very few modern drummers seem to be able to do, then proceeded to play a straight rock beat for 2 minutes. (Someone correct me if I have it wrong.)

He's a perfect example of a creative time-keeper. One of my all time favorite drummers.

Agreed. Copeland is one of the best.

[Guz2]

Phill Rudd is extremely solid but his drumming is SO uncreative it makes me sad. He could be a much better drummer than he is if he TRIED SOMETHING NEW!

[The Keith Moon]

I read somewhere like AC/DC sound is all because of Phil Rud hitting the snare in the middle. I kind of disagree, cause watching AC/DC live at Donington.... Chris Slade on Drums, same solid sound.... its all beacuse of the tuning and miking....I think.

yes, all AC/.DC songs sound the same!

...very easy to play along.