Instruction Question

[Les Izmor]

Please help.

Messed around on drums for years, but recently started getting serious. Went way back to unlearn bad habits and such, and the videos (Weckl, etc.) all had me starting with finger control.

Now I'm taking lessons with a guy, but he's got me starting with wrists. Tighter grip, no fingers, no arm momentum: just wrists. He wants the wrist to control the stroke - not fingers or stick rebound, which seems to contradict the pros and other drum teachers.

Question: How did you first learn?

Thanks.

[gusty]

"the wrist is the motor"

are you sure he doesn't want you to use rebound?

[Les Izmor]

Originally Posted by gusty

"the wrist is the motor"

are you sure he doesn't want you to use rebound?

As of now, no. Very deliberate, controlled strokes, and all the way back up using wrists. Even as speed increases - until I can't keep up, anyway. Breaks out the soft gel pad sometimes TO ELIMINATE REBOUND. Says he doesn't want me to depend on the drum surface. Does this make sense?

If it's what I need, I'm all for it. Maybe it evolves to rebound and fingers?

[Toza]

rebound is the first thing that i would teach you;)

check first 10 sec. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cb75dgldnY

[Les Izmor]

Originally Posted by Toza

rebound is the first thing that i would teach you;)

check first 10 sec. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cb75dgldnY

Thanks, I keep hearing this. The difference is my guy isn't letting me release the fingers like that. Says it's easier to incorporate fingers later; harder to UNLEARN weak wrist control.

Needless to say, I'm confused.

[Les Izmor]

Is it possible to get ALL my learning from books and dvds?

[h3r3tic]

Originally Posted by Les Izmor

Is it possible to get ALL my learning from books and dvds?

Well it is possible but you have to have discipline.
I myself am a self-thought drummer. I mean my knowledge on technique using rebound came from this forum starting from instructional videos from Derrick Pope to Tim Waterson, etc etc.
And I do use books too to guide me through my drumming.
But it's all about the discipline!
Strive for quality and not quantity when it comes to practicing ;)

[Ian Ballard]

Originally Posted by Les Izmor

Is it possible to get ALL my learning from books and dvds?

It's possible to get all your learning from being around musicians as a child and playing with actual musicians. However, not everybody is so lucky.

You can be "autodidactic" (self-educated), you can take lessons from an instructor, or use just videos and books.

My first drum teacher was amazing. Degree-holder from North Texas, was taught by Ed Soph... etc, etc. But I, to this day, totally disagree with his hand technique he taught me then. Did it ruin me? No. I learned from watching Buddy Rich, Billy Cobham, Tony Williams and others and created my own technique. Not to say that Jim Riley's technique is wrong.. in fact, it's AMAZING. But it wasn't for me. However, playing duets with him (marimba/drums) playing things like "Change" by Yes was something I never would have learned on my own.

Find your path.

[veggo32]

I agree with your teacher, you have to strengthen your wrists. They will help you the most for drum set playing. Good year for sure on wrists, once you get them nice and strong then you can venture to finger control etc.

[Toza]

Originally Posted by Les Izmor

Is it possible to get ALL my learning from books and dvds?

jojo mayer - secret wepons for the modern drummer!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Alex Luce]

Originally Posted by Les Izmor

...Now I'm taking lessons with a guy, but he's got me starting with wrists. Tighter grip, no fingers, no arm momentum: just wrists. He wants the wrist to control the stroke - not fingers or stick rebound, which seems to contradict the pros and other drum teachers...

What kind of grip are you using?

[Les Izmor]

Originally Posted by Alex Luce

What kind of grip are you using?

Match.

Thanks for the replies. Very helpful forum.

[Alex Luce]

Okay. I have a similar concept, but it involves using the arm as well as the wrist.

I believe it is best to separate the motion in the grip from the motion of the stroke when first learning to play the drums. So that means using no fingers and starting with a firm grip. But you definitely wouldn't want to stifle the movement of your arm...it should be part of the wrist stroke in order to create the most powerful motion possible.

[Les Izmor]

Originally Posted by Alex Luce

Okay. I have a similar concept, but it involves using the arm as well as the wrist.

I believe it is best to separate the motion in the grip from the motion of the stroke when first learning to play the drums. So that means using no fingers and starting with a firm grip. But you definitely wouldn't want to stifle the movement of your arm...it should be part of the wrist stroke in order to create the most powerful motion possible.

This might be what we're doing. He's definitely discouraging UPPER ARM movement for now. Elbows are mostly stationary - the Moeller Technique I'd been trying to learn on my own is outta the question for the time being.

We can incorporate this later, I hope?

[Alex Luce]

I would say it would be difficult to incorporate the upper arm later if you learn to play by restraining or restricting the upper arm movement. It wants to move, if you let it. But more importantly, the upper arm is where the stroke starts. That is where you get your power from. Watch any good hard-hitting drummer and you will see they use fluid upper arm movement in their playing.

The thing is, if you watch a virtuoso player like JoJo Mayer, in certain types of playing it doesn't really seem like the upper arms are involved. But I would say the upper arm movement is always there, it just has been refined to a point where it is barely visible.

By the way, the defining characteristic of the upper arm movement for matched and traditional grip is that the upper arm swings out at the elbow when the stroke is made. Watch your favorite players and look for this type of movement.

Regards,

Alex

[Matty G.]

Originally Posted by Les Izmor

Is it possible to get ALL my learning from books and dvds?

Tough question. I think it depends on the person. A good teacher is invaluable because of the feedback they give while they are watching you play. Having a trained pair of eyes on hand helps to correct bad habits, better than you can do alone. And hopefully their advice and experience will help you cut through years of floundering through irrelevant material. Books and DVD's of the standard variety can't do those things.

But to some extent, we are all our own teacher. Even if you go to lessons 1/2 hour a week, every week, that's only .2% of the time. It's up to every student to have good practice habits, discipline, and the ability to self-correct and accurately asses their playing.

No matter what you're trying to learn, record, record, record yourself; only when you are away from the kit or practice pad can you truly judge what's going on. Thankfully, that's getting easier to do.

[aaajn]

I THINK.... obviously an opinion, you are paying this guy to lead you through. I think the questions should be: does this guy know his stuff, has he had studnets like you before? Probably.

None of us are really unique. I think what helped me is I completely surrendered to the guy, did exactly what he told me for an extended period of time.

Its like switching psychiatrists because the first one said you were crazy. If the guy is good, give him time. He may be laying the foundation for later. My teacher taught me stuff early on that he made me stop doing later on. He knew what he was doing and I had to trust the process. Sometimes I think in our quest we get zealous, don't believe the guy has the answers so we strike out and don't make progress.

But again, you have to make sure the guy knows what he is doing, if he does, than you have to trust him.

My .02 cents...

[wy yung]

Many years ago when I first began taking lessons from Virgil Donati, the first thing he taught me was how to use the entire arm from the shoulder through the elbow and forearm to the wrist and fingers: essentially the Moeller stroke. Rebound was very important as was finger control. Of course teachers differ just as students differ. It may be that your teacher has noticed a deficiency in your playing and is concentrating on elliminating this. It is hard to second guess something unwitnessed. You may like to visit another teacher as well to get a second opinion.

[Deltadrummer]

My two cents is listen to your teacher. Like others have said, if he has worked with people, has had success and comes recommended then you should listen to him or go elsewhere. I can tell you from a teaching viewpoint that it is very hard to teach a student who second guesses what I am doing. Who is the guy with the experience? I don't think this is such in your case. I think you are sincere; but it is often a way of getting around putting in the work that the teacher wants the student to do. I have done the kind of work he has you doing and it has value.

[Pat Petrillo]

My philosophy is, you don't control the STICK, you control the REBOUND of the stick..

That's a huge philosophical and musical difference from the way you are being taught.

Here some clips from my DVD/Book "Hands, Grooves, & Fills".
Check the rebound and how the sticks move in my hand...

Hope this helps..!

1) Overall Philosophy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmXkEeoZxw0

2) "5,5,3" Warm Up Exercise
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLjeE...eature=related

Check out more at:
http://www.hudsonmusic.com/site/prod...category_id=10

Good Luck, and let me know how you do..

[larryace]

Originally Posted by veggo32

I agree with your teacher, you have to strengthen your wrists. They will help you the most for drum set playing. Good year for sure on wrists, once you get them nice and strong then you can venture to finger control etc.

This is exactly what I was going to say. If you get your wrists in shape and then work the fingers afterward, you will have KILLER hands. No forearm movement, I like this teachers approach

[larryace]

There is more than one way to achieve a great stroke, don't yell at me here, but the Moeller is not the be all end all when it comes to drum strokes, for me anyway. (too much unnecessary arm movement for my liking) What is the goal of the Moeller stroke? A great accent, right? That can be achieved through great wrist, hand, and especially finger control. Not downing the Moeller, it works for many, no doubt, but there is more than one way to skin a cat. If Moeller is your cup of tea, great, but your teacher is trying to make your hands do it all, which is the way to go in my opinion. I'd trust in him.

[Pat Petrillo]

Just my two cents..

There are no "muscles" in your wrists to strengthen, it's mostly tendons. This is a very common misconception, and a good way to get tendinitis.. The muscles are in your forearm..

Check the picture

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...&ct=image&cd=1


It's like trying to walk by only using your ankles. Doesn't work..

I'll only say that everything must work in harmony together. The wrist are attached to the forearm. Move the forearm, and the wrist will follow naturally, with less stress.

It's like dibbling a basketball. You can't do it with just your wrist, or arm, it's everything working naturally together.

I don't call it a "Moeller", because Moeller was a man, not a technique. So, when you watch the video clips in the above post, you'll see I use forearm and let the wrist follow.

Good Luck, and don't hurt yourself ;)

[wy yung]

Originally Posted by larryace

There is more than one way to achieve a great stroke, don't yell at me here, but the Moeller is not the be all end all when it comes to drum strokes, for me anyway. (too much unnecessary arm movement for my liking) What is the goal of the Moeller stroke? A great accent, right? That can be achieved through great wrist, hand, and especially finger control. Not downing the Moeller, it works for many, no doubt, but there is more than one way to skin a cat. If Moeller is your cup of tea, great, but your teacher is trying to make your hands do it all, which is the way to go in my opinion. I'd trust in him.

I find that the Moeller stroke shows itself in small movements as well as large. I tell my students to have a flexible wrist that helps moves the sticks in a whipping motion, regardless of how large or small the stroke. Of course it's just one of the many strokes available and it's up to the individual which to use. I do think spending a year avoiding a motion is a waste of time. Why not incorporate wrists, fingers, arm etc from the get go? A year is a long time to ignore a body motion. I tend to side with Pat. I like the stick to do much of the work. For me at least rebound plays a large part in the development of speed. It also helps to develop an economical stroke.

Of course there are many ways to skin a cat.

[Les Izmor]

Thanks, everyone. I really appreciate all the responses.

Originally Posted by aaajn

I THINK.... obviously an opinion, you are paying this guy to lead you through. I think the questions should be: does this guy know his stuff, has he had studnets like you before? Probably.

None of us are really unique. I think what helped me is I completely surrendered to the guy, did exactly what he told me for an extended period of time.

Its like switching psychiatrists because the first one said you were crazy. If the guy is good, give him time. He may be laying the foundation for later. My teacher taught me stuff early on that he made me stop doing later on. He knew what he was doing and I had to trust the process. Sometimes I think in our quest we get zealous, don't believe the guy has the answers so we strike out and don't make progress.

But again, you have to make sure the guy knows what he is doing, if he does, than you have to trust him.

Excellent point. "Surrendered." Exactly how I remember it, well put. My drumming Higher Power. I should probably revisit this step.

Originally Posted by wy yung

. It may be that your teacher has noticed a deficiency in your playing and is concentrating on elliminating this.

Might be right. He's always talking about "years from now," and maybe I shouldn't be questioning how we get there.

Originally Posted by Deltadrummer

My two cents is listen to your teacher. Like others have said, if he has worked with people, has had success and comes recommended then you should listen to him or go elsewhere. I can tell you from a teaching viewpoint that it is very hard to teach a student who second guesses what I am doing. Who is the guy with the experience? I don't think this is such in your case. I think you are sincere; but it is often a way of getting around putting in the work that the teacher wants the student to do. I have done the kind of work he has you doing and it has value.

This really helps. I asked here for that very reason: I don't want him thinking I'm second guessing him (though, obviously, I have). Wasn't my intention to come off like a shortcutter - I like the hard work, and I really want to trust his approach. Needed clarity, I guess. Reassurance from other drummers/teachers. I will take your advice.

[Deltadrummer]

Originally Posted by Pat Petrillo

Just my two cents..

There are no "muscles" in your wrists to strengthen, it's mostly tendons. This is a very common misconception, and a good way to get tendinitis.. The muscles are in your forearm..

Check the picture

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...&ct=image&cd=1


It's like trying to walk by only using your ankles. Doesn't work..

I'll only say that everything must work in harmony together. The wrist are attached to the forearm. Move the forearm, and the wrist will follow naturally, with less stress.

It's like dibbling a basketball. You can't do it with just your wrist, or arm, it's everything working naturally together.

I don't call it a "Moeller", because Moeller was a man, not a technique. So, when you watch the video clips in the above post, you'll see I use forearm and let the wrist follow.

Good Luck, and don't hurt yourself ;)

Well, it's not just an opinion Pat. It's an educated judgment and we should listen to what you say. I totally agree with what you are saying, and teach the basketball approach. Kids love it, and it's such a great metaphor. It is hard to keep them committed to maintaining a fulcrum; but this analogy definitely gives them something to hold on to. Now I can even bounce the stick up my arm, which the kids love even more. Comes from watching Steve Smith. :)

My question would be, if you isolate your wrist motion, are you also isolating forearm motion? I think you are, and assumed this is what his teacher was doing. I remember doing this as a kid and it really helped; but have worked it with students who could not see the benefit at all in it so I don't teach it at anymore. It is no longer "the popular method."

[Alex Luce]

Originally Posted by Pat Petrillo

My philosophy is, you don't control the STICK, you control the REBOUND of the stick...

Hey Pat, enjoyed the videos and I generally agree with your philosophy.

The thing about rebound (as you know) is you have to loosen the grip to achieve it. On the flipside, if a student holds onto a stick firmly through the entire single stroke motion, it allows them to really feel and concentrate on the entire arm stroke—which is something a lot of drummers have trouble with. I think almost any drummer could learn how to let a stick rebound, but how many have learned to use their entire arms in fluid, efficient and powerful motions to strike the drums?

I am not advising a firm grip on the stick for regular playing, but I think it can help the student distinguish the difference of the motion occurring in the hand (the grip) from the motion of the arm (the stroke). Once they get a feel for the stroke, then loosening up the grip allows them to learn rebound with the assurance that the proper mechanics of the arm are in place.

Regards,

Alex

[Deltadrummer]

Alex, I kind of understand where you are coming from. Does this come out of Freddie Gruber's idea of the stick as an extension of the arm, one fluid motion? One of the things that I have come to realize, is that a lot of the work is and should be given to the upper arm. You should feel the lower bicep working wile you are playing. I have also found that working this with a heavier stick really helps to get that across. Is this sort of where you are coming from?

[Alex Luce]

Yes, excellent points. Well to answer yours and the original question posed in this thread, what I wrote in my post to Pat was how l learned (or re-learned, at the age of 21) to play the drums. I practiced single strokes with a firm grip using my entire arm until the motion started to play itself. That became the core movement of my playing, and everything I do to this day is just a variation of that (doubles, Moeller, freestroke, etc.).

I hadn't heard of Gruber's idea, but yes, I absolutely agree the stick is an extension of the arm, and a heavier drumstick definitely amplifies the feeling of the stroke, because there is greater mass to be moved.

As far as role of the upper arm, I believe that a proper drum stroke uses the arm as a system of levers, and the most powerful stroke comes from using the upper arm to start the movement.

If you really want to learn where I am coming from click the link in my signature below and then click the link “See Inside at Google”. You can read the beginning part of my book which explains my concepts in detail.

Regards,

Alex

[Les Izmor]

I've been clicking on some of your links, and you guys are all pretty amazing.

\m/..\m/

[Abstsbtsb]

listen to your teacher

[Alex Luce]

I wanted to let the drummers who participated in this thread know that I uploaded a new video that is relevant to the discussion here.

http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/s...590#post637590

Regards,

Alex

[Monica McCoy]

If it's any consolation to you, I've been taking weekly lessons for almost two years and for the first year I wasn't allow to use my fingers for anything. Everything wrist. Long strokes. Big bounces.

[Alex Luce]

That's great! You're definitely on the right track.