Not relying in bounce?

[h3r3tic]

One question that I have that makes me really curious about something was after watching some videos from Tony Williams at Zildjian day sying that he does not rely on bounce?

How is that possible?
I mean we drummers should be play well without hurting ourselves but is that possible with not relying on bounce?

Does someone follow this type of philosophy?

[jonescrusher]

The less you rely on bounce the more you move towards total control ie, the fingers, wrists and arms are what's doing the work. I've found this particularly true in gaining control over double strokes. Double stroke rolls that are less dependent on trying to contain the rebound are more reliable to be clean, powerful and in time, with more dynamic range. Also it reduces problems of readjusting to different playing surfaces, so moving between hihats and snare drum, or floor tom, is much more dependable.

Ultimately, the way to develop this is relentless work on grip technique, preferably on pillows. We're talking years, not days and weeks.

[Fiery]

As Jojo Mayer noticed in his instructional video, pillows have a problem of having no rebound at all, and playing on them can form a habit of playing into the drum, not out/off of it. All surfaces that we normally play on have at least some rebound, so one should always be capable of accepting any rebound of the stick on any stroke.
A good practicing method is to place towels over your snare or practice pad in different numbers of layers for different feels. Or just practice on low rebound surfaces of the kit, such as floor toms.

[h3r3tic]

Then, should we drummers follow this type of philosophy?

[paramac]

Interesting topic/question. I remember seeing Tony in a clinic and hearing him talking about that and not getting it at the time..It's not that he never uses bounce but he doesn't generally throw the stick down, he lets it drop or lets it down depending on how he wants to hit the drum volume, tone etc and picks it up.. It's kinda like a pianist to me that when they get faster running a scale or jumping from far places on the keys still retains a beautiful touch instead of banging more and more.. A lot of pianist start to bang as they play faster unintentionally as do drummers..This technique was/is used by a lot of the old Big Band and Bop drummers such as Elvin, Max, Blakey, Higgins. I think it also may of come about from some of these guys being dancers back in the old days and their awareness of finesse and stepping lightly etc. Jo Jones was a tap dancer so was Buddy but it seems Buddy did more of throwing the sticks down when he did all that amazing stuff, but I think he was aware of both and used both.You can see it in videos sometime how they are lift up more than throwing down. I have come to find out some drummers play exclusively that technique and others do more of throwing the sticks down. Some do both depending on the situation. I think there is something to be said for that "no rebound technique" Ralph Peterson Jr. plays this way too and I was first introduced to this technique from studying with him.It's funny because you don't think of Ralph as a light drummer but he can play as light as anyone and still burn at any tempo, it's a question of if he wants to or not! Lol! It's funny because for like almost my first yr I didn't get it. Ya know like why or how? I kept wanting to throw down because I was so used to it. He would have me play the rudimental ritual and play from pretty high of the drum what would be considered full strokes for the accents and tell me to let the sticks drop or as I came to discover even let them down on the drum. This way you are playing lightly from a high position which totally contradicts say the Morello/ Gladstone technique.. This is hard to do as you get faster and it is impossible at first if your used to throwing down. It was for me, it took time..While I was struggling with this new technique, I caught Billy Higgins one night at the Village Vangaurd and finally the light went off! I realized what it was about and I went home and thought to NOT ACCENT THE ACCENT so play as light as possible from the highest position. This gives you a different sound and I think a looser sound which is so important especially in Jazz. When you attain this kind of control of the stick, you can then play as light or loud as you want from any position high or low. Sometimes this is nessecary as opposed to exclusively play loud from a high postion and come lower to the drum from softer playing which is fine too. Nothing wrong with the other technque, they are both awesome in their own ways. It also give one more of a touch or a different kind of touch like a pianist as I mentioned earlier. It is hard/er to get speed with this technique and it was amazing how Tony had so much of it and he was super clean. It is hard to be super clean too with this technique. If your throwing something, it WILL go there, but if your dropping it it can be harder to control but can give you more control in a different way that has to do more with sound than speed/execution. To me it is about different sounds you can get from what ever technique you need to get the sound you want. Sorry this is so long I hope it made some sense..

[caddywumpus]

Originally Posted by h3r3tic

Then, should we drummers follow this type of philosophy?

We should follow what's right for us, individually.

One of the nice things about drumming is there is no right way to do anything. No "blanket rules" to follow. Different methods and philosophies have their advantages/disadvantages. Find what works for you, while exploring the other philosophies. Be all-encompassing--that's how we find out what's right for us.

As for the original post: Learn to utilize bounce, but also learn to not rely on it.

[Ian Ballard]

Originally Posted by Fiery

As Jojo Mayer noticed in his instructional video, pillows have a problem of having no rebound at all, and playing on them can form a habit of playing into the drum, not out/off of it. All surfaces that we normally play on have at least some rebound, so one should always be capable of accepting any rebound of the stick on any stroke.
A good practicing method is to place towels over your snare or practice pad in different numbers of layers for different feels. Or just practice on low rebound surfaces of the kit, such as floor toms.

I've never seen him admit to ever trying pillow practice, nor do I think he's really wrapped his head around it. It's actually a paradox to assume a little pillow practice here and there will cause you to play "into" anything... if anything, it makes rebounds MORE substantial because your muscles are being trained to pull the stick upward, absent a rebound. Students of mine and my personal experience, shows that intelligent and moderate pillow practice gives you muscular response that is hard to attain using a practice pad or bouncy surface. Usually critics and skeptics of something do little research, or have some automatic bias. There is no substantiation to the theory that pillow practice creates a "heavy handed" stroke.

I respect the opinions of anybody, but the assumption that a certain kind of practice ruins you, when so many other amazing drummers (Rich, Chambers) admit to using that method, is absurd.

Slack-tuned drums do not offer a rebound and cymbals offer a modicum of rebound energy to aid the upstroke. Relying on rebound will cause you to have technique problems when you encounter percussion devices that offer no rebound.

Tony is right on.

[paramac]

Originally Posted by Ian Ballard

I've never seen him admit to ever trying pillow practice, nor do I think he's really wrapped his head around it. It's actually a paradox to assume a little pillow practice here and there will cause you to play "into" anything... if anything, it makes rebounds MORE substantial because your muscles are being trained to pull the stick upward, absent a rebound. Students of mine and my personal experience, shows that intelligent and moderate pillow practice gives you muscular response that is hard to attain using a practice pad or bouncy surface. Usually critics and skeptics of something do little research, or have some automatic bias. There is no substantiation to the theory that pillow practice creates a "heavy handed" stroke.

I respect the opinions of anybody, but the assumption that a certain kind of practice ruins you, when so many other amazing drummers (Rich, Chambers) admit to using that method, is absurd.

Slack-tuned drums do not offer a rebound and cymbals offer a modicum of rebound energy to aid the upstroke. Relying on rebound will cause you to have technique problems when you encounter percussion devices that offer no rebound.

Tony is right on.

I guess the pillow practice itself isn't "responsible" for the heavy handedness but It could be the individual playing the pillows isn't aware the he is hitting harder then necessary also gripping the sticks too tight as was in my case when I knew hardly anything about playing the drums and was first starting out as a teenager..When I first started, I had no legitimate teacher and I would put on Rush, Maiden The Scorps, Deep Purple and a bunch of other stuff and just pound a way and have fun..........on pillows and my mattress. As primitive and unschooled as it was, the one thing was I figured out was how to learn by ear..When I finally got to a teacher I was told not to practice on a pillow and looking back I think it was good advice at the time..I had to learn about touch and playing an actual drum....Like you said "Intelligent" pillow practice can be a good thing or I would prefer "informed" pillow practice. Now, 26 yrs and many lessons later I practice on different surfaces sometimes that being, a pillow among other things and it is fine because I am aware of what I once was not....

[h3r3tic]

thank you for all your responses. Really interesting!

Yes I know that things can get complicated if you encounter a percussion instrument or other "hand" instrument that offers no rebound. And to be honest I think learning to rely on bounce AND not to rely on bounce, makes you wanna think better too!

Thanks guys!

[caddywumpus]

When I'm away from my drums or practice pad (standing in line at the bank, waiting for my toast to pop up, etc...), I'll drum on my legs with my hands. I work on all of my rudiments, and obviously there's not much rebound or leverage. I can do doubles, flam accents, and paradiddle-diddles ALMOST as fast as I can on a pad (but not quite). It definitely helps with hand drums...

[mrchattr]

When I started playing hand drums a lot, while still keeping up with my drum set work, I really saw my reliance on bounce diminish. I would be able to play something perfectly on a snare drum, then not be able to do it bare handed on a conga. Some hand drums, especially ones with wood heads (cajon, bongo cajon, etc) have little or no rebound. Also, using your hands instead of sticks means you will get less rebound. The end result is that you really have to learn how to create the speed and rhythms that you want from your wrists and fingers.

[TheMarkV]

my personal philosophy is that a drummers rebound response and the natural bounce of the stick should be one in the same. everything should really just kind of work together to get a full and completely natural motion. it should feel completely comfertable and totally natural. nothing should feel forced in anyway. in my opinion, this stands as one of the ultimate truths of drumming itself. i dont know, this is just how its inplanted into my head haha, but i hope it maybe helps you. (i can sometimes be a bit of a drumming philosopher lol.)