Ludwing SupraPhonic or Ludwing Supersensitive or Acrolite

[vksalomon]

Hello.

Do you know the differences of this models for jazz?

Thanks!

[rmandelbaum]

The acrolite is the student model.

I own a Supersensitive and a Supraphonic. The Supraphonic is one of the most versatile drums I have ever played. There is a reason the Supraphonic is the most recorded snare drum in history ;-)

[Salicete]

The Acrolite, though inexpensive, is a very articulate and versatile snare. I own Keystone badged Acros, Supraphonics and a lone Supersensitive from the 1960s, all of them great snares.

I regularly gig with the Acrolite. It sounds great, and though I would be angry if it were stolen or damaged, it could be easily replaced for a hundred bucks or so.

Don't let the "student" tag scare you off; all three are fine snares, suitable for any style of music, including jazz.

[timma]

Adding to this thread - ludwig supraphonic or ludwig black beauty? any noticable differences? I have played neither, but buying one or the other. I'm tossing up between the 14x5 or 14x6.5

[KarlCrafton]

Tons of difference between the Supra and the BB, but either drum sounds great.

For the 6.5 size, which I have experience with...

The brass shell on the BB makes it a smoother, and more solid sounding drum to my ear starting with an un-muffled drum.
With Moon gel or something like that, the "solid" qualities can be pretty equal, and the sound that naturally occurs because of the material used is the difference.

The "ring" on the Supra (I think anyway) is more of an "open spread" and it kinda sounds a little more hollow--kinda like a 'thonk"--and that's NOT in a bad way, or a bad thing, just how I can describe it.

The BB has more of just a crack and the 'thonk' if you want to tune to get that, is a little brighter.
I don't think the BB's brass shell lends itself to the same type of character as the Supra.

When you really start to know drums, and can pick out things that make you think, "that's probably a brass drum", or," that's probably a deep wood snare" when you hear a Supra, you know it's a Supra (and a lot of people here would probably say the same thing).
It's in a class, and has a sound all it's own.

The BB is a plain fantastic drum.
Great sound, records great and (IME) is ready to record very quickly.
I find it a bit louder of a drum as well, compared to the Hammered 6.5 Supra I own.

BB's (IME) are very consistent drum to drum as well.
I own a '00 and a '04 BB, and even though the actual shells have a slight difference in tone, the overall sound of the drum when tuned up is virtually identical side by side.
I have 2 of the same drum because if I'm on a gig, and one goes down, I have the same exact sound and quality in my "back up".

But, if you wanted more "character" from a snare--in an either/or situation--a 402 Supra may be a better choice--if you like to fly wide open and get some cool overtones, and some nice hardy ring from the drum--something like John Bonham got on some of the Zeppelin stuff.

For that kind of thing, I think the 402 is in it's own class.

I go for the 6.5 size myself, but the 5" Supra is a great sounding drum period, and if you only had one of those snare drums---ever--you'd be in pretty darn good shape in any situation IMO.

I also love the Acrolite.

Great sounding drum--doesn't sound like a "student" model snare at all.

Same shell as the Supra, it just isn't chrome plated, so it doesn't have that "Supra" sound---which is fine because it sounds great the way it is.

It was my first snare back in 1975, and it really sounds good--especially with the bottom head tight and 42 strand wires on it!

I've always planed to add a 6.5 Acrolite to the collection, but something else always seems to come up...but someday!

[vksalomon]

Thanks so much for all your comments.

I decided to buy a new supra and I found a good price for a 14 x 5 400 in 290.

[rmandelbaum]

You will love it I am sure.

[timma]

Yeah thanks for the information. very useful. I personally think i will go for the BB 14x6.5 or the Supraphonic chrome 14x6.5. Now need to start looking for a good deal!

Here is a 1966 Acrolite....WITHOUT A MIC !! Aquarian Texture Coated w/ a Power Dot...and Pure Sound Blasters .....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKGLOd5CuLI

[Salicete]

Originally Posted by timma

Adding to this thread - ludwig supraphonic or ludwig black beauty? any noticable differences? I have played neither, but buying one or the other. I'm tossing up between the 14x5 or 14x6.5

Unless you really want a black drum, just buy a Supra.

As for the sizes, I would suggest that you try them both and buy the one that sounds best to you and will best meet your needs.

save $100 + and just buy any Acrolite thats in decent shape.

The sound differences between an Acrolite and Supraphonic are minimal. You don't want a supersensitive, as they have complicated and fragile snare mechanisms.

[sjr]

the older supra's & black beauties were brass

all acros & most newer supra's are aluminum

the brass models are very sensitive with a lot of ring and good projection

the aluminum models are a much darker and dryer sounding snare. not as much ring. more focused of a sound than the brass. the chrome on the supra should brighten up the aluminum a bit, compared to the acro, but still not as bright as the brass

both are great drums, but in the case of jazz, i would say go with the supra

hope this helped

[KarlCrafton]

Originally Posted by Salicete

Unless you really want a black drum, just buy a Supra.

Not to be a d*ck, but that's really shortsighted and very simplistic.

I assume others saw my post a few down there, so I won't go into the differences I hear being as I OWN both drums.

Yes, a Supra (and the Acro) is a great drum, but the sound of it might not work for someone---just as a BB might not be the sound someone else wants.

They asked about differences between the 2 drums, and not something like your first comment.

You're right, they should play both if possible to see which one might work better for them (if that's possible), but if it's NOT possible to play a drum, a real description is very helpful in making a better choice when you're spending a few hundred bucks.

Again, I'm not setting out to be a jerk, sorry if you think I'm "going after you".
I'm not, but comments like the first part are just no help.

I think it IS safe to say that if someone like's the sound of the Ludwig Brass shell, but doesn't want a Black drum they should try (or buy) the Brass Edition snares.

Anything could be said to be a COB on an eBay description (especially if it's a little older, has a B/O badge or a older Keystone), but you'd have to BUY it and then find out.
If someone was not real familiar, or not experienced in what years/models were Brass shells, they could get screwed by a bad description, or seller with a misleading description like "same year as the brass shelled drums" or something like that.

So be as careful as you can and look things up and ask questions, just don't buy something---unless you have money to burn.

There's also a lot of difference in sound between the Acro and the Supra too, and SJR pointed them out pretty accurately.

[vksalomon]

Hello my drummer friends!

I received my supra 400 today! It sounds PERFECT!!! It is the stradivarius of the snares. VERY VERSATIL!! VERY SENSITIVE!!! It sounds better than at Guitar Center.
Thanks again for your help!!!

[Trip McNealy]

Is it really worth discarding trying to get a Ludwing Supersensitive ? Should I just try to scout for a SupraPhonic instead? I was interested in the 14x6.5 variety.

I really love Alex Van Halen's snare sound, and with the right heads and tuning I could get close.. but he has been using Supersensitives forever.

Do both snares have a similar sound? Or if I get a Supra is there a modification I can do to make it close to a SS in terms of well, sensitivity? Like more snare wires?

[KarlCrafton]

I just put some (nice) 42's on my Hammered 6.5 Supra and it's a ton more sensitive now than with the regular 20 strand wires.

I can just tap on it really lightly and the wires give a great full sound.

The Supra is very sensitive anyway, but the 42's just brought it out even more.

If you can find a SS to try out before you spend the cash on an eBay buy I'd do that before spending any cash.

Otherwise, if you like the Supra sound, you aren't going to go "wrong" with the standard model Vs. a SS.
And if you are playing rock type music, and are looking for a more AVH type sound, you don't need a SS to get it.

I can't remember AVH using a SS live.

Studio maybe, but all the live pics I can remember seeing have him with a standard throw off.

And lately it's been the Millennium throw off.

He's done some crazy stuff to the batter head to get that sound like big strips of duct tape all over the head.

I love that kinda flat, throaty, "thonk" ring he gets.

These days I think he uses an Emperor X--I've seen some pics of his snare with that head.Kind of makes sense because that head is thick, and it kind of has the same effect as all that duct tape.

Played just to the side of the dot, you can get that kind of sound out of the drum.

You just need to play with the tension rod near the spot you hit so it doesn't have a pitch that rings higher --you just tune it down a little to keep the tone in the same range as the overall sound of the drum so it's not going "paaarrwww" haha.

[Trip McNealy]

Thanks Karl!

I just picked up a 402 Supra 14x6.5 for a good price on eBay.

It has the newer P-86 Millenium throwoff too.

Does anyone know where I can obtain Ludwig heads online? Specifically, the snare side heads and the Silver Dot Coated batters? Can't seem to find them.

Alternatively, I'll use Remo.

[Shedboyxx]

Originally Posted by Trip McNealy

Thanks Karl!

Does anyone know where I can obtain Ludwig heads online? Specifically, the snare side heads and the Silver Dot Coated batters? Can't seem to find them.

I know these guys stock Ludwig heads. Not sure if they have Silver Dot but I'll bet you could order some.

http://www.interstatemusic.com

[KarlCrafton]

I tried the Silver Dot Coated head, and be warned, it is a THICK, pretty non-responsive head.

NOTHING like the Remo coated CS (underside Black Dot).

Some better drum shops sometimes stock the Ludwig snare side, and Remo has a low collar snare side head that is almost identical to the Ludwig too.

If you have to order, the Remo may be easier to get. It has a TD after the model #.

Good to hear you picked up a nice snare!

[Trip McNealy]

Thanks guys.

Yea, like I said, I wanted to get that AVH sound.. and he's used Silver Dot Coateds and the Remo Emperor X.. which is basically a CS Rev Dot but made of 2-ply instead 1.

I would do an Evans PC Rev Dot like I have on my one snare.. not too fond of it though and for some ODD reason, I think Remo heads (or Luddy) heads just go well with Ludwig snares!!

I'll probably *try* the Emperor X and if not sold on it, then a CS Rev Dot with an Ambassador Snare Side.

[Skitch]

Originally Posted by rmandelbaum

The acrolite is the student model.

I own a Supersensitive and a Supraphonic. The Supraphonic is one of the most versatile drums I have ever played. There is a reason the Supraphonic is the most recorded snare drum in history ;-)

The Acrolite is the same as the Supraphonic with one major difference and one minor difference:

Tha major difference is the acrolite is not chrome plated. The minor difference is that the acrolite has only eight lugs as opposed to the Supraphonic's having ten.


Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw

[KarlCrafton]

Being as I too LOVE AVH's snare sound, I can tell you that a regular Silver Dot has a sound unlike other heads.

I don't know if it's the film they use or if it's because of the silver material or because the dot is smaller--or if it's just everything.

It just sounds different than any other head on the snare.

The Evans reverse dot will sound nothing like AVH's sound--nice head, but won't get close to that sound (IMO, I've used it).

During the 'classic' VH days, Alex did crazy things to his Remo BD and Ludwig SD heads like putting duct tape in a triangle covering all the clear parts of the head.
This cuts the ring totally, and gets that 'tonk' sound out of the drum, but you get the snare wire sound in there too.

An Emp X might get close to that sound being as it's thicker and the overtones are cut, and if you play just outside the dot, you get the muted 'ring'.

I have only played this head on other peoples snares though.

It was OK.

Another head that is GREAT at getting a sound similar to Alex is the Coated Emp w/top dot.

BE-0114-22.

This head lasts forever too.

I just had one last (and sound and perform very well) for just under a year.
Doing rolls started to seem kinda...eehhh, but 2 & 4 back beats still sounded real good even after all that time.

I am able to easily get an AVH type sound out of this head if I tune it that way (kinda med low pitch, de-tune a lug slightly, and play just off the dot).
And it's not a one trick pony head (IMO), it sounds great at all tensions.

It's the head that is on the John Robinson signature Yamaha snare, and that's how I found it about 4 years ago.

Hope this helps some!

I totally agree with Skitchs "major/minor" on the Acrolite.

[Trip McNealy]

Karl, MANY MANY thanks there.

Although you mention the head John Robinson has on his snare, the Coated Emp with top dot... Isn't that what a Coated Emperor X is, excep the dot is on the underside?? At least that's what the Remo site says.

I dunno if the dot being on top or underside makes a difference....

But I'll give the head a try! If I can find it lol.. MF and Steve Weiss don't recognize that product number.

I was also thinking of just a plain Coated Emperor, to get the John Bonham sound too!

[KarlCrafton]

Your welcome, no prob.

The Coated Emp with dot is NOT the same as the Emp X at all.

The dot is on top, so it's basically a Clear Emp, with a Clear dot, then it's coated.

The Remo model # is:
BE-0114-22

You'll probably need to go to a drum shop--I'm sure there's some good one's in your area.
I don't think an online distributor, or something like that is going to have it.

I order a few at a time because no one "stocks" it, and I doubt many even know it's an available type head!

It's a real head, & you can get it--I didn't make it up

It's under the "Sound Control" section in the Remo Drumhead catalog.

There's all sorts of cool stuff they make that shops just don't stock--there's just too much to have everything.

Good luck with it.

[Trip McNealy]

My shop recently changed distributors and can't get me that Remo head right now. So I went ahead and got Coated Emperor for batter and Ambassador Snare Side for reso (the John Bonham setup).

Right now my Emperor is tuned to about a B and the snare side to a G#. A bright sound with some resonance going on (no muffling anywhere).

Anyone have good experience tuning to closely match the sound of Bonham's tuning? I tried listening to the Ocheltree video about the green sparkle kit but can't make out the pitches of the snare heads. That snare sound is great!

Any suggestions are welcome, you can tell me specific notes or Drum Dial settings if you have them.