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  #1  
Old 08-16-2008, 12:23 PM
maskedwarrior maskedwarrior is offline
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Default Ludwig "Combo" 1965

Hi I'm trying to find out a little bit about this kit as I've seen one for sale recently - as you might too if you google this :)

On a ludwig collectors' site I saw one reference to the 'combo' as a budget kit brought out in the early seventies.... but that doesn't seem 100% right to me.

Does anyone have any knowledge of this kit and how well it's matured?

And if you see the sale and buy it before me I won't be too hurt :)
Tony
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Old 08-16-2008, 02:24 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig "Combo" 1965

Give us a link to what kit "specifically" you're talking about.
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Old 08-16-2008, 03:51 PM
maskedwarrior maskedwarrior is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig "Combo" 1965

Here it is:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1965-Ludwig-Sk...d=p3286.c0.m14

I really don't know much about ludwig kits back then. Is an average kit by old standards a very good kit today?
Thanks
Tony

Last edited by maskedwarrior; 08-16-2008 at 03:55 PM. Reason: adding
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  #4  
Old 08-16-2008, 07:23 PM
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ludwigvondrumcrazy ludwigvondrumcrazy is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig "Combo" 1965

Tony, the later Combo's were a line of Drums (very entry level) as opposed to a specific Kit and were an entirely different animal than the Outfit in the listing. You are spot on when you thought they were "average" back then and good today, which is pretty much the case.........

Looking at that Seller's listing I would say that it appears accurate and forthright, disclosing the issues that may effect someone's decision to bid on it or not. The Combo & Club Date, as well as a few other "entry level" Kits did have Ludwig's 3-ply Shells so were no different in that regard than, let's say, the top of the line Super-Classic, Hollywood or Downbeat Kits. The difference was in the Lugs and other Hardware that went along with the Kit such as the Pedal, which brought Ludwig's cost down.............

Below you will see the Combo, sans Floor Tom, in both Catalog No.'64 (released late '63) and No.'67 (released late '66.) I provided both so you can see that this was somewhat of a transition period for this Outfit, switching from clip-on Tom Holder, fold-out Spurs & having a Jazz Fest Snare in 1963 to the Rail Consolette, dissapearing Spurs and Acrolite by 1966. I don't know exactly when Ludwig dropped the nickel Hardware but having recently worked a 1965 Ludwig Pioneer Snare that had the nickel I know for a fact that it was still around for a least a portion of that year...............

1963-64





1966-67 (below)





In addition to the changes I mentioned above there were a number of other's that I didn't mention so, because of this, I wouldn't be surprised to see some "odd-ball" combinations mixing the before & after Mounts etc. on Drums manufactured / assembled during this transition period. I also find it very plausible that someone ordered the Kit in the listing with a Floor Tom, which could explain the difference in serial numbers...................

LVDC
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Last edited by ludwigvondrumcrazy; 08-16-2008 at 07:41 PM.
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Old 08-16-2008, 09:25 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig "Combo" 1965

LVDC is the man. And his pictures tell the story. My understanding was the "Combo" of this era came without floor tom. The addition of a floor tom would make the kit a "Club Date", Typical sizes were 20, 12, 14 or 22, 13, 16. So indeed, this kit in the auction, might be a "Combo" that someone added a 14" floor tom to. Center lugs were used on 14" floors, but 16" floors got split lugs. Sweet kit. Wish I owned one.
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Old 08-17-2008, 01:22 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig "Combo" 1965

Harry, you may be correct when it comes to it being a Club Date, which was my first assumption but that odd serial number on the Floor Tom had me thinking that the Kit, if it is / was indeed a Combo, was built as such then the Floor Tom added to the order.

Once again it becomes a guessing game with a little semantics thrown in for good measure. Describing it as a Club Date would work just fine and the serial number issue could have been due to the "normal" 14" (by 1965) Club Date Floor Tom being swapped out for a 16-incher, which as you so correctly stated, weren't "officially" available in that size with that style Lug, but, stranger things have happened so I wouldn't entirely rule them out as a possibility...............

It is what it is, like you said, a sweet kit!

LVDC
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Last edited by ludwigvondrumcrazy; 08-17-2008 at 01:37 AM.
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Old 08-17-2008, 04:41 AM
maskedwarrior maskedwarrior is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig "Combo" 1965

Gosh thanks ludwigvondrumcrazy and harryconway! I wasn't expecting quite SUCH comprehensive and knowledgeable replies (although ludwigvondrumcrazy, if I'd seen your name written in a list of others I would probably have guessed you'd know a thing or two about ludwigs:))

Your answers and pictures have helped considerably and I feel a lot more informed and confident now.

I must say I did rather fall for the kit when I saw it. It was only later on seeing some references to 'Budget' and 'Entry Level' online that a few doubts sprang up.

Thank you both so much.
All the very best,
Tony
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  #8  
Old 08-17-2008, 05:26 AM
maskedwarrior maskedwarrior is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig "Combo" 1965

Oh one more thing - given your best estimate would you say it was a home kit or a gigging kit?

I don;t play very hard or anything and I take care of my gear but I'd hate to risk damaging something old and pretty through improper use. But I do want a kit I can play out. I'd love to take something with some history on the 'road' :)
Tony

Last edited by maskedwarrior; 08-17-2008 at 05:29 AM. Reason: missed an 'r'
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  #9  
Old 08-17-2008, 06:04 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig "Combo" 1965

Quote:
Originally Posted by maskedwarrior View Post
Oh one more thing - given your best estimate would you say it was a home kit or a gigging kit?
Personally I think Drums should be used and unless it was something rare, I mean really rare, then play 'em if ya got 'em!

Bottom line, it's your investment, which should mean that you would use "reasonable care" and make sure they didn't get thrown all over and be subjected to other mean & nasty things unnecessarily. I've worked Kits that have been gigged hard for years that still had many years left in them so it's all in how you treat your tools............

LVDC
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Old 08-17-2008, 07:25 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig "Combo" 1965

Quote:
Originally Posted by ludwigvondrumcrazy View Post
Personally I think Drums should be used and unless it was something rare, I mean really rare, then play 'em if ya got 'em!

Bottom line, it's your investment, which should mean that you would use "reasonable care" and make sure they didn't get thrown all over and be subjected to other mean & nasty things unnecessarily. I've worked Kits that have been gigged hard for years that still had many years left in them so it's all in how you treat your tools............

LVDC
i seriously love you. You know everything about Ludwig its amazing
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  #11  
Old 08-17-2008, 07:44 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig "Combo" 1965

Wow, This thread mimics one of my first, I came here to find out what I could, and within a day or two, I had pretty much every question answered. This site really does deliver. Great stuff guys!
Any way, I happen to own and play a set of mixed Ludwigs...more specifically a '64 and a '68/69' set of WMPs'. They are great drums, heads and tuning can be a little bit "finicky". BUT---They are built to last, Assuming the best. Do they have the reinforcement rings in the shells? Can you get the badge numbers? Is inner coating wood or painted? All this info will help you find out what you may be looking for.

BTW- a certain member here happens to live "very" close to where these drums are. Look in the "My Place" thread and you will find this person. My guess is they would help you out... Good Luck!
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  #12  
Old 08-22-2008, 11:19 PM
maskedwarrior maskedwarrior is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig "Combo" 1965

Hi. Just to report I bought the dums, and they look lovely. really great.

Although I don;t just want them to look good of course, I want them to play them and hear something older than me! :)

But a thought crossed my mind which hadn't occurred to me before (since i never originally intended to buy older drums) - how do I tell they're genuine??

I mean, it must be quite tempting for people to slap some white paint inside some new shells and say they're Vintage Luds.

So before I go boast to my friends, what should I expect to see in authentic drums of this period? Or alternatively, what are the tell-tale signs of the forger???

Thanks,
Tony
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Old 08-23-2008, 12:59 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig "Combo" 1965

Congrats on the purchase...would love to see a pic of your vintage kit! Let me know when you post one! Thanks


Quote:
Originally Posted by maskedwarrior View Post
Hi. Just to report I bought the dums, and they look lovely. really great.

Although I don;t just want them to look good of course, I want them to play them and hear something older than me! :)

But a thought crossed my mind which hadn't occurred to me before (since i never originally intended to buy older drums) - how do I tell they're genuine??

I mean, it must be quite tempting for people to slap some white paint inside some new shells and say they're Vintage Luds.

So before I go boast to my friends, what should I expect to see in authentic drums of this period? Or alternatively, what are the tell-tale signs of the forger???

Thanks,
Tony
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  #14  
Old 08-23-2008, 01:32 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig "Combo" 1965

Quote:
Originally Posted by maskedwarrior View Post
how do I tell they're genuine??

I mean, it must be quite tempting for people to slap some white paint inside some new shells and say they're Vintage Luds.

So before I go boast to my friends, what should I expect to see in authentic drums of this period? Or alternatively, what are the tell-tale signs of the forger???

Thanks,
Tony
Awesome, I think you ll be happy with your "new" set. Are there re-inforcement hoops in the shells? And check the badge numbers, I assume they are "browned" keystones. The numbers will give an idea of what year they were assembled. A member here-Micheal G, helped me out with this, maybe ask him. I m sure there are many other members here that can help you with this. I forget the exact name...but I think it s along the lines of "vintagedrumguide.com". You can find a chart to compare your numbers to.


And yeah, we want pictures, when taken outside usually provide the best view. : )
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Old 08-23-2008, 02:09 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig "Combo" 1965

Quote:
Originally Posted by harryconway View Post
LVDC is the man. And his pictures tell the story. My understanding was the "Combo" of this era came without floor tom. The addition of a floor tom would make the kit a "Club Date", Typical sizes were 20, 12, 14 or 22, 13, 16. So indeed, this kit in the auction, might be a "Combo" that someone added a 14" floor tom to. Center lugs were used on 14" floors, but 16" floors got split lugs. Sweet kit. Wish I owned one.
Not to hijack the thread but "LVDC" should get a more appropriate member status.
How about "knows everything about Ludwig member".
The man is great, you ask a Ludwig question there comes his thread with explanation and pictures. Always a great read. Thanks.
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Old 08-23-2008, 03:12 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig "Combo" 1965

Quote:
Originally Posted by maskedwarrior View Post
But a thought crossed my mind which hadn't occurred to me before (since i never originally intended to buy older drums) - how do I tell they're genuine??

I mean, it must be quite tempting for people to slap some white paint inside some new shells and say they're Vintage Luds.
As CRDR stated. Re-inforcement rings present, Keystone badge present, and your center lugs. The sum of all these parts. If a cat were to "manufacture" a vintage kit, he'd spend almost as much money doing so, as the kit would be worth. Plenty of guys have made Club Date shells into Classics, or reverse, but it's the same shell. Plug a few holes, do a re-wrap/veneer, drill new holes. But looking inside the drum, you'd be able to tell.
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Old 08-23-2008, 09:57 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig "Combo" 1965

Quote:
Originally Posted by maskedwarrior View Post
But a thought crossed my mind which hadn't occurred to me before (since i never originally intended to buy older drums) - how do I tell they're genuine??

I mean, it must be quite tempting for people to slap some white paint inside some new shells and say they're Vintage Luds.
Tony, once you get the Drums it's usually an easy matter to tell if the insides have been refinished or not, simply put your nose down by the vent hole and tap the head, older Ludwig's, especially those with white "Reso Cote" interiors, have a certain smell that would be hard, if not impossible, to duplicate. If they smell like paint then you know they have probably been repainted, but, if they have "that smell," and you'll know it when you smell it, it's hard to describe, they are the real deal..............

LVDC
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Old 08-23-2008, 04:32 PM
maskedwarrior maskedwarrior is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig "Combo" 1965

hi everyone, thanks for your replies.

I have given the drums a going over and I really can't believe someone would go to such trouble to fake these!
Two things though - the inside of the smallest tom has a sort of egg-shell sheen to the paint, whereas the large tom and bass have a powdery matt finish - What could this mean???

-There is also a powdery white residue in certain places on the drums - ie. around and underneath the gold badges and along the wrap seam of the bass drum. In some places it's quite compacted. What is this do you think? Drum cleaner?

Also what do you think I should do about this situation:
The kit arrived with with 24 tension rods for the two toms, but 12 are too short - 3 from the big tom and 9 from the small tom. They are JUST long enough that, with considerable effort and a very uneven tuning pattern, you can get them to lock on the first or second thread of the bolt (this, incidentally, is how they arrived in the post!) but this is totally impractical and will soon sheer off the threads. The short bolts are mostly old but are a very mixed bunch and have obvioulsy come from other kits.

I am a little ticked off - partly because the seller didn't mention this, and perhaps mostly because I don't want to risk an otherwise flawless sale becoming unpleasant. But I simply must approach the seller and request that he either give me replacement old bolts, replacement new bolts+discount or refund me the expense of refitting old/new+discount bolts myself.

I hope the seller accidently sent the wrong bolts! I don't want to have to give him a bad rating, I do so hate that.

So, on to my question - do new tension bolts have a standard thread size and diametre and will they fit this kit? Or (since I suspect the answer to this question is NO) what sort of tension rods should I buy? Are vintage tension rods readily available and not too expensive and might i stand a better chance of finding compatible ones like this?

Many thanks for your knowledge and kindness!
Tony
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Old 08-24-2008, 07:27 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig "Combo" 1965

Tony,

Although I do not have the answers you are looking for I am very interested in the answers as well...so I will be following this thread and your plight...sorry to hear of this what a BUMMER...would still love to see a shot of the kit...good luck

Quote:
Originally Posted by maskedwarrior View Post
hi everyone, thanks for your replies.

I have given the drums a going over and I really can't believe someone would go to such trouble to fake these!
Two things though - the inside of the smallest tom has a sort of egg-shell sheen to the paint, whereas the large tom and bass have a powdery matt finish - What could this mean???

-There is also a powdery white residue in certain places on the drums - ie. around and underneath the gold badges and along the wrap seam of the bass drum. In some places it's quite compacted. What is this do you think? Drum cleaner?

Also what do you think I should do about this situation:
The kit arrived with with 24 tension rods for the two toms, but 12 are too short - 3 from the big tom and 9 from the small tom. They are JUST long enough that, with considerable effort and a very uneven tuning pattern, you can get them to lock on the first or second thread of the bolt (this, incidentally, is how they arrived in the post!) but this is totally impractical and will soon sheer off the threads. The short bolts are mostly old but are a very mixed bunch and have obvioulsy come from other kits.

I am a little ticked off - partly because the seller didn't mention this, and perhaps mostly because I don't want to risk an otherwise flawless sale becoming unpleasant. But I simply must approach the seller and request that he either give me replacement old bolts, replacement new bolts+discount or refund me the expense of refitting old/new+discount bolts myself.

I hope the seller accidently sent the wrong bolts! I don't want to have to give him a bad rating, I do so hate that.

So, on to my question - do new tension bolts have a standard thread size and diametre and will they fit this kit? Or (since I suspect the answer to this question is NO) what sort of tension rods should I buy? Are vintage tension rods readily available and not too expensive and might i stand a better chance of finding compatible ones like this?

Many thanks for your knowledge and kindness!
Tony
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Old 08-24-2008, 09:27 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig "Combo" 1965

Quote:
Originally Posted by drumhead61 View Post
...would still love to see a shot of the kit...good luck
Click on the eBay link in post #3. A dozen photo's.
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