Probably Trading my Ludwig Bonham for a Spaun Kit. Opinions?

[mikei]

Hello Everyone,

Well, I just have to face the fact that I am addicted to getting new drum gear. It is a serious problem. My wife has finally just given in to me and lets me get away with it. I must be good in bed or something! LOL (wishful thinking I guess)

Here is what the trade is.

My Ludwig Green Sparkle Classic Maple Bonham Config (26 x 14, 18x x 16, 16 x 16, and 14 x 10) with LM402 Supraphonic for a New Black Sparkle Spaun in a 24 x 18, 16 x 15, 15 x 14, 12 x 9, 10 x 8, and 8 x 8.

I will probably have to throw in 100 in cash to do this.

The guy is local, so I just need to do the drive.

Anyway, the only possible negative I see is that it might be hard for me to sell this kit if and when I want to because it is a botique kit, not a super brand name.

I also have a spaun snare drum already.

Anyway, if you have an opinion, let me know.

Thanks again!!!!!

[caddywumpus]

My opinion is...DON'T DO IT!!! FOR THE LOVE OF BONHAM, DON'T DO IT!!!

But, that's just my opinion. I'd seriously ask myself, "what is it, specifically, about the Spaun kit that I like more than the Ludwigs?" Finish? Sizes? Number of drums? Keller shells? "Custom" factor? Or, do you just not like the Ludwigs anymore and want a breath of fresh air? Think about these things before getting rid of something that you might regret later.

BTW, I have the same addiction, but my wife isn't as "enabling" as yours...you lucky dog...

[volvoguy]

Trades are a nice, below the "wife radar" way to get new stuff!

Your call. I definitely see the Ludwig's holding their value a bit better... "boutique drums" are hard to sell from what I've seen on eBay... but if the sound is what you're after, go for it!

One thought: Spaun is a custom drum company... so why get someone else's custom drums?

Disclaimer: I a big fan of Ludwig's, and I'm not an impartial judge. :-)
-Ryan

[RobertM]

Mikei,

To play devil's advocate to Ryan's and Caddy's preference for Ludwig, I can't stand Ludwig drums. I like the Supraphonic snares a lot, but I think their drums, lugs, hardware, etc., suck. And that's including the vintage stuff from the 1950s and 1960s and the vistalites from the 1970s (which I've played on in the past). I know, I'm crazy--but I don't care for Ludwig drums' sound at all and I think this whole retro drum craze that seems to be polluting the air for the past couple of years is absolute bollocks. I don't mean to offend anyone out there or on the forum, this is just my crazy opinion. I grew up playing on some '60s and '70s Ludwig maple kits and a '70s Ludwig Vistalite kit in the '80s, and thought they were fine, but even back then I preferred Pearl and Tama or even Gretsch. And to show my lack of a bias even further, I don't care much for Bonham. I think he's a great player and an innovator and respect him, for sure, but give me Stewart Copeland over Bonham any day of the week.

Now, that said--you see, I'm not biased at all towards Ludwig or a Bonham configuration--I don't know that I would make that trade. I think Caddy is right to ask, "why do you want to make this trade?" What is it indeed about the Spaun drums that makes you want them? I have a desire to collect drums, too, but I think we all need to pull in that tendency sometimes and really evaluate what we want to collect and why. If it is just because you want something "new," then perhaps take some more time to think about it so that you don't wind up with regrets on losing the Luddies.

I know Spaun kits very well--there's a really good private pro music shop in my neck of the woods that sells Gretsch, Pork Pie, Spaun, GMS, Noble & Cooley, Trick, etc., so I get to see and play on all of these kits and snares frequently. Honestly, I don't think Spaun is anything earth shattering. Their kits are okay, finishes and lugs are cool, but the really only "custom" thing about them is a) their bearing edges are double 45 degree jobs, which makes them look like a triangle top ^, and b) their paint finishes. Everything else "custom" about them is stuff that GMS or Pork Pie can do, for example: varying drums sizes, innovative paint jobs, solid shells, stave shells, etc.

I have heard varying stories regarding their ^-shaped bearing edges. Spaun claims this edge allows the drum head to rest solely on the bearing edge itself, to increase tone and resonance clarity (see their website for their take on this). True? You decide. I have read some complaints about these edges wearing or chipping rather easily due to the sharp ^-shape design. I don't know how often that has happened--I haven't seen stats on this, just read anecdotes--but you might want to check out the bearing edges, play around on the drums a bit, and judge for yourself whether or not you like Spaun's bearing edge style and drum sound.

Personally, I would keep the Ludwig Bonham kit. It sounds like you have a great vintage kit, and your Ludwigs, provided they are older and not a new model, will definitely have a much better resale value than the Spauns. If the custom kit in question was Pork Pie or Odery or maybe even a Noble & Cooley, then you might actually have something a bit more interesting on your hands, but that's just my preference (I think Pork Pies are great and they have a great track record and reputation). If you decide down the road that you want something else, I think you'll find the Spauns a bit harder to get rid of--and you even acknowledge this factor in your post, so you are already worried about this issue on some level. Everyone wants a vintage Ludwig or a DW Collectors kit these days (maybe even Pearl Masterworks), but you don't hear too many screaming for Spauns. I think Pork Pie and GMS have more loyal, time-tested followings, for example, from the point of view of kit value/resale value, and even those custom kits might be hard to sell should you decide to get rid of them later on for something else.

Then again, it all comes down to sound. If you really like the sound of the Spaun kit and think the finish is great, then go for it. But if you want to always have a kit on hands with good resale value to feed a very understandable habit of wanting new kits every now and then, then perhaps wait for a better trade offer down the road. The Ludwig Bonhams are a good kit to have and a good card to hold in your pocket to get cash for or make a trade for a new kit.

Hope that long-winded post helped. You have an interesting dilemma on your hands--good luck with your decision!

[harryconway]

I've seen the Bonham kits sell for $1400 used. So, not so good at holding it's value. I'd do the trade Mikei. The re-issue Luddies are gonna be around. Next to hit will be the Legacy Bonham kit. Those will be pricey, and also as close to the real thing as one will be able to get without actually getting "the real deal". Make the drive. Go Spaun.

[Les Ismore]

Maybe a gentelman's trade where you each get the kits for a week, or whatever and if both don't agree to swap, you keep what you got?

[Mendozart]

Hey Mike,
I would play the drums first and see if you really like them. I think it's a good deal monetarily though as the Spaun drums are worth more. Plus, like Harry said, you've got the Legacy line out now, so if you want a TRUE Bonham 3-ply kit you can still get it. Your kit is just a Classic Maple kit , correct? BTW, you're starting to rival old Fourstringdrums in your frequent change of equipment, lol.

[mikei]

Well,

I will not be trading.

I had a buy it now option on my kit and it sold this morning before I could take it off.

I sold the kit for exactly what I paid for it new, so at least I am making out there.

I feel bad as the person I was going to trade with was excited. We certainly hadn't finalized things, but still, I wasn't expecting it to sell so quickly.

Now, I can shop for a kit with money in had. Not too bad.

Mike

[Mendozart]

Well at least you didn't lose any money, so that's good. I would still go play those Spaun drums to see if you like them. Fish still might give you a great deal on them, if you like them.

[bonzolead]

Originally Posted by mikei

Well,

I will not be trading.

I had a buy it now option on my kit and it sold this morning before I could take it off.

I sold the kit for exactly what I paid for it new, so at least I am making out there.

I feel bad as the person I was going to trade with was excited. We certainly hadn't finalized things, but still, I wasn't expecting it to sell so quickly.

Now, I can shop for a kit with money in had. Not too bad.

Mike

One thing too consider also is Spaun's hybrid kits it would be kinda Bonhamish since there both acrylic and wood and it's not a kit that everybody has.

Just my 2 cents.

Bonzolead

[volvoguy]

Originally Posted by RobertM

Mikei,

To play devil's advocate to Ryan's and Caddy's preference for Ludwig, I can't stand Ludwig drums. I like the Supraphonic snares a lot, but I think their drums, lugs, hardware, etc., suck. And that's including the vintage stuff from the 1950s and 1960s and the vistalites from the 1970s (which I've played on in the past). I know, I'm crazy--but I don't care for Ludwig drums' sound at all and I think this whole retro drum craze that seems to be polluting the air for the past couple of years is absolute bollocks. I don't mean to offend anyone out there or on the forum, this is just my crazy opinion.

Wow. No offense taken! Great post! Very informative!

-Ryan

[bonzolead]

[quote=RobertM;439093]Mikei,

"but give me Stewart Copeland over Bonham any day of the week."

Sorry give me Bonham over Stewart "how high can I wrench down my snare drum" Copeland any minute of the hour not just day of the week.Copeland has some cool chops and I like some of the early Police stuff but Bonham could piss on the drums and make them sound better than Copeland.IMO

Bonham was just more original and had more heart & groove.

Bonzolead

*sigh* And that's why I can't stand most Bonham fans...

[Pukeboy]

Originally Posted by bonzolead

Sorry give me Bonham over Stewart "how high can I wrench down my snare drum" Copeland any minute of the hour not just day of the week.Copeland has some cool chops and I like some of the early Police stuff but Bonham could piss on the drums and make them sound better than Copeland.IMO

Bonham was just more original and had more heart & groove.

Bonzolead

I don't think you can compair these 2 excellent drummers. they are just way to different in their way of dealing with the drums...

[RobertM]

Originally Posted by bonzolead

...but Bonham could piss on the drums and make them sound better than Copeland.IMO

Bonham was just more original and had more heart & groove.

Bonzolead

This is an incredibly subjective claim. There are plenty, plenty people out there, including most recently at a clinic JoJo Mayer himself, who would state that Stewart was quite original in the sounds he generated and the style he developed, and had major heart and feeling in his playing. Just listen to live versions of "When the World Is Running Down, You Make the Best of What's Still Around" or "Voices Inside My Head" or "One World," and Stewart's amazing feeling and groove intoxicates the air and ears.

I agree with you: Bonham was amazing, and his influence is still being felt. When I was lucky enough to have a lesson with Stanton Moore a couple of years ago, Stanton was really into Bonham and his stick grip technique--how he transformed from a tight stick holder in the early days to a looser player at LZ's height. It was cool to see a New Orleans second line funk proponent incorporating a heavy rock/blues hitter into his creativity, and you can hear this in Stanton's playing on Corrosion of Conformity's In the Arms of God album or even in Stanton's newest release, Emphasis (on Parenthesis).

As I mentioned in my original post, I do respect and value Bonham and his playing--I just don't often turn to it for inspiration, and that's my subjective, gut reaction. I feel Stewart's playing a lot more than Bonham's, but that's just me. Evaluating talent is incredibly subjective, and perhaps it is only with growing consensus over time that talent or genius can reach some kind "objective" consideration, as would be the case with Bonham and Stewart.

I don't think, as Pukeboy rightly noted, that you can compare Stewart and Bonham in such a hierarchical way. They play different styles, have different influences, and both helped to shape contemporary drumming (along with many others). I don't think you can really prove, in any tenable way, that Bonham is more "original" than Stewart. That's like saying Hemingway is a better writer than Fitzgerald, or that Scorsese's films are more original than David Lynch's. You can't really prove such a claim when dealing with accomplished artists--those comments are simply the stuff of personal preference.

I'll reiterate my no-offense claim again, since I know the Bonhamite fan army numbers large: I do respect and like Bonham very much, as I noted before; he's just not my cup o' tea. I'll always acknowledge his brilliance, but I'd turn first to Art Blakey, Max Roach, and Stewart Copeland for my list of greats.

I do like the idea of pissing on drums and making them sound good, though. I had an old drum teacher who once said that people like Copeland could hit a garbage can and make it sound good--and I think that's true. To prove this, I recently saw JoJo Mayer at a clinic and he made his Sabian Fierce hats sound amazing in some jazz playing. I had played these hats before and thought that they were way too tinny, bright, and metal sounding for anything jazz related; then I see him and think, "wow, those hats could be awesome for jazz"; and then I return to the drum shop and play the Fierce hats again and realize the sad truth: I suck. I could not get them to sound the same way. As Ian MacKaye of Minor Threat once said, "it's not the instrument, it's the player."

Fun debate/discussion.

[Bassdrummer]

There is a saying that bass players use..the tone is in the fingers. I guess same could be said with drums. Good players can sound good on any equipment, but good equipment makes you sound even better. But it's really about the player. Now I am not by any means a great player..I just got back into drums under a year ago after taking...oh 15 years off. But a Ludwig, even in Bonham config can produce any usable rock, blues, jazz sounds. Bonham was all about the big band sound anyway. If you get GAS then you have to go with what will make you happy! Life is too short not to play on a kit that you really want to!

[KarlCrafton]

I wish I would have seen this yesterday.

You know what I would have said.....

At least you got what you paid for it.

Don't give them "the stuff".

Use it on your new kit--it will still work on a non-Ludwig kit ;-).

My wife gave up too.

BTW, I think Copeland is as inventive and creative in the Police as Bonham was in Zep.
Both are great, and I like each for what they did.

[mikei]

Don't worry Karl!

I have already set it up in my new Mapex!!!

I will certainly use this set up for the rest of my days!!!

[KarlCrafton]

Originally Posted by mikei

Don't worry Karl!

I have already set it up in my new Mapex!!!

Haha!

Hopefully you'll get yourself "settled" on some drums one day....but, then you'll just start buying cymbals!
But, you've already broken the wife down, so, it's all good haha!

MY "thing" is "mostly" hardware...gotta pick up some more stuff (to make more stuff) tonight on the way home!...man, that stuff came quick....I ordered it last Friday...well, my weekend is set for more hardware fun!
I was making some bass drum ride cymbal mounts last weekend, so I needed a new project anyway......

Have fun with whatever you end up getting...like.......a new Bonham kit in Natural Maple oooohhh....!!
:-)

[Citizen Insane]

[quote=bonzolead;439261]

Originally Posted by RobertM

Mikei,

"but give me Stewart Copeland over Bonham any day of the week."

Sorry give me Bonham over Stewart "how high can I wrench down my snare drum" Copeland any minute of the hour not just day of the week.Copeland has some cool chops and I like some of the early Police stuff but Bonham could piss on the drums and make them sound better than Copeland.IMO

Bonham was just more original and had more heart & groove.

Bonzolead

Speak for yourself, I think Stewart Copeland is far more original and creative than John Bonham. Stewart Copeland innovated the way hi-hats were played in popular music.
He also popularized frequent uses of splash cymbals, bright, tight, cutting snares, and octabons into rock music. John Bonham is one of my favorite drummers, but I don't see what you find so original about him. And can you honestly say that Bonham had a can piss on a drums and make them sound better than Copeland? Listen to the song "murder by numbers". Bonham's drums can't begin to match the crispness and punchiness of Copelands drum on that track. Don't get me wrong Bonham has one of my all time favorite snare drum sounds, but you'd have to one big Bonham fanboy to make a ridicoulous claim such as "Bonham could piss on the drums and make them sound better than Copeland."

Bonham fans can be really asinine.

[Bassdrummer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPc83j4z4UY

Copeland

I never really paid attention to him before. I mean I did, and knew he had chops. To be honest they have a lot of similarities, and some differences in approach. Kind hard to compare the two, but both supported two totally different bands wonderfully and both styles fit perfectly to the music. The both have that down your throat sound at times. I would say Copeland is more dynamic..where Bonham would rock out some of those parts more. But what a odd comparison of drummers. They are both good! It's like comparing blondes and brunettes.

[harryconway]

Originally Posted by Citizen Insane

Speak for yourself, I think Stewart Copeland is far more original...
Bonham fans can be really asinine.

Really, both Bonham and Copeland are great, in their own rights. But what was so innovative about the Police (1977-1984), blending rock, reggae, punk and jazz. Seems almost a no brainer. Eric Clapton (another guy from the UK, eh) did "I Shot the Sheriff" in 1974. Probably the first "big radio" break for this kind of sound. Bob Marley died in 1981, and the Police sold 8 million copies of Synchronicity in 1983. Before Marley died, few people (meaning your avarage popular record buyer) even knew who he was, or who Peter Tosh or Lee "Scratch" Perry were.

[RobertM]

Citizen Insane: Thanks for the backup! I agree with you wholeheartedly about Stewart revolutionizing hi-hat playing and splash/octabon usage. Stewart's the man, indeed.

Harry: I agree that the Police's blending of styles wasn't super "innovative." In fact, in a 1981 documentary on new wave and rock, Andy Summers said as much--The Police were just there at the right time and got the right amount of notice--they were quite aware that they were borrowing from previous artists who hadn't received the recognition they deserved. And Stewart's always been quite open about his fusion of Middle Eastern styles and reggae stuff like Britain's Steel Pulse--the stuff that influenced his playing. Also, Sting always borrows from Bob Marley. The interlude reggae chorus chanting in "Get Up, Stand Up" that Marley always sung is exactly the same chants Sting uses in "Walking on the Moon": the "eeeeyo eeeyoyoyoyo..." etc.

Well, the punks in England knew about reggae. Johnny Rotten, The Police, and a host of others who either spearheaded or joined in the Punk revolution of 1976-1980 in England were really into reggae (and I think Steel Pulse got their start/wider notice by often playing at gigs with punk bands in the late Seventies). And that influence spread into the New Wave/Post-Punk stuff of the early 1980s (e.g., XTC's "This World Over" from 1984 has a heavy reggae back-beat structure to it).

And, yes, BOTH Bonham AND Stewart were/are great. That was my point all along. Both major drummers who inspired many and changed music.

[Bassdrummer]

One could say Bomham is very innovative as well. Keep in mind when Bonham was getting his chops in the late 60's and early 70's..Surfing USA was popular and things along those lines. So when drummers like Bonham, Bill Ward, Ginger Baker..they were blending jazz and blues into rock as well. I guess it depends but IMO both were equally influential but for different times in rock history.

[pcmckay]

mikei,
Wow, I was surprised to read that you sold your Luddies! Why the change?

I also would like to get in this ridiculous debate over Copeland and Bonham. These types of debates are useless. Everyone has their own opinion and taste in music. When we start comparing drummers or other musicians and have a debate of who is better, we are missing the whole point of music. Music is an art, and everyone expresses themselves differently. Who is to say that this guy expresses himself better then this guy etc.
Led Zeppelins music is completely different then the music of the Police, you guys are trying to compare apples and oranges! John Bonham was an innovator and a pioneer in hard rock drumming, in fact Bonham and Bill Ward of Sabbath are probably both responsible for what we now consider heavy metal drumming! Bonham played what Zeppelins music called for, it was a perfect fit.
Stewart Copeland is an amazing drummer as well, and definately created his own sound. In fact Copeland was a big influence on me back in the early eighties when I was in high school. Both drummers have had a huge impact on their craft and we should just leave it at that!

[bonzolead]

[quote=Citizen Insane;439695]

Originally Posted by bonzolead

Speak for yourself, I think Stewart Copeland is far more original and creative than John Bonham. Stewart Copeland innovated the way hi-hats were played in popular music.
He also popularized frequent uses of splash cymbals, bright, tight, cutting snares, and octabons into rock music. John Bonham is one of my favorite drummers, but I don't see what you find so original about him. And can you honestly say that Bonham had a can piss on a drums and make them sound better than Copeland? Listen to the song "murder by numbers". Bonham's drums can't begin to match the crispness and punchiness of Copelands drum on that track. Don't get me wrong Bonham has one of my all time favorite snare drum sounds, but you'd have to one big Bonham fanboy to make a ridicoulous claim such as "Bonham could piss on the drums and make them sound better than Copeland."

Bonham fans can be really asinine.

I knew that was going to create a number of responds but i'm not going to have someone to put down Bonham without a response and if you want to get technical Bonham was the first popularize playing drums with your hands,having a gong & tympani's incorporated into a drumkit and for just downright killin' the kit and a having large drums (Diameters not pieces) he did so much with so little.and just for the record I like Copeland's drumming and think he is a great drummer "spirits of the material world" is one of my favorite tunes from the police but if you want to listen to some Bonham besides the overplayed radio stuff listen to "Achelles Last Stand,"Sick Again","Poor Tom","Out on the Tiles","The Lemon Song" and "Bonzo's Montreux" just too name a few and I'll try to get a hold of that "Murder by Numbers" tune would be nice to hear something different for a change.All i'm saying It's just like when someone puts down your favorite team,car, or whatever.maybe you won't. say anything but i'm not.I'm not a Steward Copeland hater I just like Bonham better call it asinine or whatever I really don't. care.

Bonzolead