Lost a student today. Was I wrong with being up front?

I'm a fairly new teacher at a local music store in the next town. I just found out a few minutes ago that I lost a young student that I just started with a few weeks ago. We only had two lessons and then I was sick for the last two weeks and had to cancel. He's 7 years old (Just turned 7) and in the two lessons we had, he was having a hard with the lessons, from both a standpoint of not being able to take even a small bit of information in without feeling overwhelmed, and also I could tell that the lessons aren't we he expected. He was definitely surprised that there was more to drums than just banging on them. To give an example, for him, simple quarter note counting seemed to be a huge undertaking as when he would count, he would be sighing, breathing heavy, and just putting out a vibe that it was just too much for him.

Now it's because of this that I tend to recommend that children that young shouldn't take formal lessons and I know I'm not alone in that thinking. But even still, I felt that he could still learn a lot, it would just have to be presented to him a little differently even if it took a bit more time..nothing wrong with that. In talking to his mother after the last lesson, she mentioned to me that he has been developmentally behind as well, but again I assured her of the lessons. I did however mention to her my thought on his age as well, not to deter him away from taking lessons, but just to let her know that with a lot of kids his age, it's normal if they struggle a bit more, as sometimes it's a lot to take in, but it's not impossible.

Well apparently what I said to her regarding his age she took as a hint that I was not willing to teach him. So instead of talking to me about it, she ran with her assumption and decided to go with another teacher. Of course it's her choice, but I feel like $h!t that I allowed a well meant comment, intended to give her a bit more insight into why lessons might be difficult for him, to turn her away from me as a teacher.

Was I wrong in expressing my view regarding his age? If he wasn't having trouble I would not have said anything. But as I knew that it was an issue, I wanted to be honest with her to make her aware that while lessons weren't impossible, him being younger might make things a bit more challenging.

*edited a swear - I forgot which forum I was on* :-D

[Banzai]

One of the best drummers of my country (Christian Hirth) only teaches people age 10 and up, and I think that's the best for my personal experience: I started at 8 but really got to learn at 10, hope it helps for next time.

[zambizzi]

I wouldn't over-analyze it, Rob. It sounds like she'd rather give her son a chance w/ another teacher and if the same situation arises, maybe call it quits for now. If she wasn't especially negative or didn't appear offended then I wouldn't read into it too much on a personal level.

My drum teacher has a student who is 8 yrs. old and that seems to be his toughest one, also. He mentioned that this kid's parents have him going to another teacher in addition to seeing him. Why, I'm not sure?

[fixxxer]

From someone in education (who deals with parents daily) and a drummer, parents somtimes have a way of hearing what they want to hear. If the parent explained that her son was behind in other areas, she is probably a little over-protective, which is why she made the decision to go to another teacher.
I think that it would be hard to watch anyone (especially a kid) having such a hard time learning (as you explained) something that should be fun. So, I think saying something was definately appropriate. And I believe your comment was well intended. I commend you for trying to teach a kid so young. Don't beat yourself up.

[Deathmetalconga]

Originally Posted by zambizzi

I wouldn't over-analyze it, Rob. It sounds like she'd rather give her son a chance w/ another teacher and if the same situation arises, maybe call it quits for now. If she wasn't especially negative or didn't appear offended then I wouldn't read into it too much on a personal level.

My drum teacher has a student who is 8 yrs. old and that seems to be his toughest one, also. He mentioned that this kid's parents have him going to another teacher in addition to seeing him. Why, I'm not sure?

Agreed, fourstrings, don't beat yourself up too much. Seven-year-olds are flaky, although we started our sons on piano at 6.

If the kid couldn't handle counting quarter-notes while playing, he really doesn't want to play drums. Don't be surprised if this next teacher has a short tenure.

I have many students that are 5 - 8 and I can tell you this: At this young age you need to carefully find out how far developed the kid is in terms of coordination (some still have a hard time to walk at that age because they are growing fast. Others cannot distinguish between right and left) and in terms of mental fitness (I don't know a better english word, sorry). Kids that age are extremely different in their personal development. I have a kid that can play the Steve Gadd Paradiddle groove at almost original speed (9 years old, started at age 7) - he would be a youtube candidate... Other kids have a hard time to sit down still and play quarter notes with one hand - its all different.

Try to find out how the kid learns in the first lessons, that is far more important than teaching him/her anything. Find out if the kid needs to listen to things, visualize them or needs to try them out. Find out if the kid wants "formal" lessons or if a playfull and more childish approach is better.

To give you an example: Kid A might get totally bored if you take a playful approach with singing/clapping/painting (notes, rhythms etc.). Instead, it might like the challange of formal lessons. On the other hand, if you give the kid written music, it doesn't understand it (even if written out simplistic) but if you play stuff for it, and it trys to listen and imitate it might work just fine.

Kid B instead might need a visual training, if you play something for it, it cannot imitate. Also, formal things seem to be boring to the kid. On the other hand, if you paint out notes and make it a bit chilidish and creativ (faces/animals instead of noteheads etc) and use colours and apply everything to musical tunes for children, you will see great succes.

Adjust your teaching to fit the kid. Challange the kids, but try to not Overchallange them. In German I'd say Fördern und Fordern, but not Überfordern. (Google if you like).


Whatever you choose to do, always keep in mind that with such a young kid, you can create a lot and set the fundamentals for a whole lifelong development but you can also destroy just as much, by teaching wrong/unappropriate things and therefore distracting the child from wanting to learn any instrument in the future.

Good luck though.

Sorry for the terrible English, in this special case, I really seem to lack some words. So if anything was written unapropriate, I'm really sorry for that.

[NUTHA JASON]

i will only take children under the age of ten under exceptional circumstances (one case the two kids (twins) had already been drumming for a year - age 8 quite big for their age). i always look at the physical size of the kid regardless of age. i find the length of their leg really dictates whether they will be comfortable behind the kit. Natural ability and real self motivation are big factors too. i start with simple call and answer games and clapping games. if the kid has rhythm and pattern memory then i know we can work together. if the kid shows a real desire to learn from the outset then that too plays a part.

j

[KarlCrafton]

Originally Posted by fixxxer

From someone in education (who deals with parents daily) and a drummer, parents somtimes have a way of hearing what they want to hear. If the parent explained that her son was behind in other areas, she is probably a little over-protective, which is why she made the decision to go to another teacher.
I think that it would be hard to watch anyone (especially a kid) having such a hard time learning (as you explained) something that should be fun. So, I think saying something was definately appropriate. And I believe your comment was well intended. I commend you for trying to teach a kid so young. Don't beat yourself up.

I agree with this.

I am in the situation of having a 5 (almost 6) year old whos been drumming since he could hold 2 anythings in his hands.

We have pictures of a kitchen wall he beat all the plaster off in a circle with wooden spoons (we were working on it anyway), tons of dented cans in the Lazy Susan....

Most 2 yr olds, they're playing in the mud puddle...not him, he would stand at a tree a with 2 twigs and drum on that tree for 20 minutes!

We moved to a new house a few years ago (he was 2 1/2 then), and at first we didn't have the yard fenced in, & he had this one tree that he liked to "play" on.

Well, when we got the fence up, that tree was outside the fence.
He wasn't happy.

He used to wake us up singing or tapping drum patterns on his crib.

At 2, he'd stand at a spare bass drum, point at the pedal he wanted on the shelf, and stand there and play the bass drum for at least 5 minutes or more.

That's why I don't have my DW 5000 strap pedal anymore.

HE has it!

He's into lots of different music, and plays on his kit all the time, & with our 12 yr old nephew, who plays guitar & bass (and 5 other instruments), and they keep great time.

Now, even though he was born able to "just do it" and plays all the time, there is NO WAY he would be able to handle "lessons".

He's just not mature enough to focus on it.

It wouldn't be fair to him OR a teacher.

I'm waiting until I'm sure he can focus on what he needs to learn, even though he can do a lot.

We actually just had our first drumming together time a week or so ago.

He'd always NOT want me to play when he was playing, and the only thing I've really ever showed him was one day (a couple years ago now), he was on my lap hitting the snare & FT together, and I moved his right hand to the hats....

After that, it was all over.

He was off.
It's gotten kinda freaky some of the stuff he's figured out just by listening.

I know this was long, so thanks for reading.

Hopefully that kid doesn't get disinterested in drumming, and it works out.

I think you did the right thing.

[AllTheCoolNamesAreTaken]

I've seen this with my teacher when I've arrived early for a lesson and he's talking to a new student. Frankly I think it's largely an issue with mothers, who tend to believe their children are special (although most children aren't). The teacher is put in a bad position: say something critical and lose the job, or lie and end up in a hostile relationship with your student when they make no progress.

Like the others said, don't beat yourself up. It sucks that it's lost income but the kid sounds like he wouldn't have lasted anyway. And if it helps, it happens to all teachers. My wife taught violin for years and ran into lots of moms who just wanted to know how many months it would take for their special child to be playing a concert. My wife is very direct, she'd just laugh at them and tell them the violin isn't for them.

[burnthehero]

I don't think you should feel bad about it at all. Obviously the kid was having problems and the mother confirmed it. It sounds like she wants a teacher that will simply let her kid wail on the kit for a half hour. Not much you can do about it.

[cavica]

Going along with what everyone has said, don't worry about it. From what I got though your story, the kid had no concentration at all, and didn't seem to enjoy playing. Personally I wouldn't want to teach a kid who doesn't enjoy what he is learning, because I wouldn't feel like I was getting anything out of it either. As for being wrong for expressing your views, I would rather have a candied and open teacher, than a teacher who wont say anything.

[brittc89]

Originally Posted by cavica

Going along with what everyone has said, don't worry about it. From what I got though your story, the kid had no concentration at all, and didn't seem to enjoy playing. Personally I wouldn't want to teach a kid who doesn't enjoy what he is learning, because I wouldn't feel like I was getting anything out of it either. As for being wrong for expressing your views, I would rather have a candied and open teacher, than a teacher who wont say anything.

Let me just quickly take the roll of devil's advocate here. First of all, he was seven. How many seven year olds do you think are actually able to really concentrate, especially on something like quarter notes on a practice pad. I mean, look at the tv shows produced for young children and tell me that quarter notes can stand up to that.

Dont get me wrong. Quarter notes are absolutely essential and they need to learned, but dont act like this proccess is particularly an enjoyable. Getting past that hump of INCREDIBLY boring material is the first step to improvement. You would have to cater to a young student, or even an older ones, needs to get this to happen. If you just say "OK, practice quarter notes at 90 bpm for an hour" there are very few kids who are gonna really enjoy this.

This isnt even the focus of the thread though, to attack some 7 year for not being "dedicated to the craft and hed never be a good player so no loss, he wouldve sucked anyway." Why is that neccessary? Yet this attitude seems to be coming through, at least in my opinion. Comments like, if he couldnt handle counting quarter notes outloud he really doesnt want to play drums just seem out of line to me, but that could be a misunderstanding on my part and correct me please if it is.

Did she actually say she was stopping lessons because of what you said? Have you talked to her or are you just assuming that was the cause? This is not to be insulting, but maybe he just didnt enjoy the lessons and told his mom, is that completely out of the question?

[Deltadrummer]

I think that the bottom line is that children that young should not be taking drum lessons. First of all it is a tremendously physical instrument, more so that any other and the kids are not physically developed. Second of all, it is highly abstract and kids do not have a developed sense of abstraction.

Now that's not to say that some kid somewhere will not be laying down linear drumming lines at eight, and that young children cannot drum. This is a general comment. But if you tell a parent whose child is struggling that it is due to his age, I think it is the responsible thing to do. Don't be surprised when she stops lessons. Why dish out 20-25 bucks a week?

It is a good lesson in teaching and how parents relate to their children. I was teaching guitar to an eleven year old several years back, and having a huge problem. I saw this kids report card and he had nothing but A's; and you know these grammar school cards grade everything. He had one failing grade; it was in typing. I asked two professionals about this and they both told me that he could have a motor problem, which could be very simply remediated; but if it were not taken care of now, it could become a lifelong problem. Needless to say when I mentioned my concerns to his mom, it was the last lesson I ever gave to her son.

Honesty is the ordinance of good teaching. But do not be surprised when people cannot deal with candor.

[AllTheCoolNamesAreTaken]

Originally Posted by brittc89

This isnt even the focus of the thread though, to attack some 7 year for not being "dedicated to the craft and hed never be a good player so no loss, he wouldve sucked anyway." Why is that neccessary? Yet this attitude seems to be coming through, at least in my opinion. Comments like, if he couldnt handle counting quarter notes outloud he really doesnt want to play drums just seem out of line to me, but that could be a misunderstanding on my part and correct me please if it is.

There's actually a good topic for discussion here, but it might be considered OT: Do you feel that it is necessary or even wise to try to make learning fun?

I think we focus on this idea too much, largely because we as a society greatly overvalue both children and entertainment.

If the kid is told to expect learning the instrument to always be fun he'll just stop when it gets tough or boring. You have to make the person understand that learning anything - a sport, an instrument, math - is a mixture of fun and hard work. If you ever want to be good you have to do it even when it's not fun. Even when you have to kick yourself in the butt to get up and do that exercise for the 100th time.

I think the emphasis on fun over work is one of the reasons musical education is dying in this country, and why music has become so reductive.

As a completely unscientific aside: I take my sticks to work to practice a little during free time, and people who come to my desk always pick them up. A few of them have told me they like drumming and I encouraged them to try taking a lesson. They went to a guy who advertised that he "gets you drumming the first day!", who didn't teach them rudiments or get them working on beat counting or reading. He just taught them the 2-4 backbeat and they played it. They came back and told me they had fun. And they haven't gone back for a lesson since. But they play Rock Band every day.

Like I said, unscientific and maybe meaningless. But I know when I was looking for a teacher I _wanted_ a guy who would bust my ass and make me work on the things that are necessary to become a good drummer. Kids, by and large, don't have that drive. By definition they don't have maturity and patience. It's our job to _teach_ them that, not pretend that everything in life is pennywhistles and moon pies.

[brittc89]

Originally Posted by AllTheCoolNamesAreTaken

There's actually a good topic for discussion here, but it might be considered OT: Do you feel that it is necessary or even wise to try to make learning fun?

Well, I would say its very neccessary in the business of selling yourself as a teacher, wouldnt you? If you want to have students, you know, the little "overvalued" kid ones, they need to have a little fun. If you dont need to have these types of young students because you are able to make ends meat just teaching older students, great.
Your drum lessons are probably very different from a seven year olds, I would hope they are, as you are a full grown man and have a fully developed mind that understands the only way to get from point a to point b is diligent practice, however, a young child might not even have the foresight to understand this concept.

[Deltadrummer]

Yes, and when you are teaching in a school or music store, you have a responsibility to the proprietor. I suggested group drum lessons for kids under nine. You could have them all play an instrument: drum, triangle, clave, maracas. The idea did not go over well because it would reduce revenue. But it is a good idea.

[darkstar442]

Well i started drum lessons at eight. drum have just been a natrule thing for me but when i was 4-5 i wanted a drum set and i was always just "drumming" on tables and stuff until i got my drum set. i have always been too mature for my age so when my parents told me i was getting lessons i paid so much attention but i did understand the concept that there is more to it than just hitting around. and i had music at my school which helped me. i think it was right that you brought up the age. i think that its the kids environment, the passion to learn, the understanding of what to do, the teacher, but also how mature they are. also how developed their coordination is. but thats my theory and i know i have bad spelling. so yea. if you take kids who are like under 9 you might want to talk to their parents on the phone about their maturity and development before the lesson so you understand the level they are at and so you know what to start off with and just how to keep them wanting to play drums.

Originally Posted by brittc89

Did she actually say she was stopping lessons because of what you said? Have you talked to her or are you just assuming that was the cause? This is not to be insulting, but maybe he just didnt enjoy the lessons and told his mom, is that completely out of the question?

The message was passed onto me by a co-worker who called me to tell me. He said something to the effect of, she has decided that because of what you said to her, she felt that you were not interested in giving him lessons and has decided to go with another teacher. That's it. She didn't want me to elaborate or talk to me. She just went based on the impression that I gave her by what I said, which in how I phrased it, should not have happened. I think too that after I spoke to her I was then out sick for two weeks and had to cancel two lessons. I think possibly she felt like I was canceling because I didn't want to teach him. I don't know if they tell students or their parents WHY the lesson is being canceled or simply that it's just not going to happen that week.

[Deathmetalconga]

Originally Posted by brittc89

How many seven year olds do you think are actually able to really concentrate, especially on something like quarter notes on a practice pad. I mean, look at the tv shows produced for young children and tell me that quarter notes can stand up to that.

There are plenty of kids who start learning instruments at least as difficult as the drums and even more difficult at a younger age. Lots and lots of kids start learning instruments at five and six. Many do well and many drop out quickly.

I agree the older a kid is, the more likely he will be able to learn something. However, at any age, you can only learn something IF you want to learn it. Kid or adult, if you don't want to learn something you ain't gonna, especially something as demanding as an instrument. The younger you are, the harder it is to muster the self-discipline to do hard things.

I think this boy fourstrings had just didn't want to learn an instrument, period. I don't think the kid is going to last long with the next teacher(s) either.

[tak22thegoat]

You know, I started piano when I was 4. Even though I was mature for my age, my teacher kept it fun and interesting, and not too hard. At times it would get boring practicing things that are similar to stick control for the piano. I actually didn't practice them, but my teacher wouldn't get mad. I enjoyed playing the piano because my sister, and my friends were playing it too. So the environment is very important.

Also, I witnessed a great teacher for young kids. She was teaching kids from 4-12 and I think she had a great teaching style for kids. She kept it EASY and FUN. Instead of explaining what a quarter note etc. for 10 minutes, you can maybe hum a song and hit the quarters with the student. Even if you don't explain the "hard" stuff now, he will get it later IF he continues playing the drums. (correct me if I'm wrong.) That is, if you teach it EASILY and not saying things like "A quarter is 2 eighths, or 4 sixteenths ... blah blah blah... " Instead maybe you can try "Count with me, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four." Or maybe you can try a story based lesson. Like you can say that you sell toys and you want a quarter. Then he would hit one quarter note. If you want 2 quarters he could hit two quarter notes, etc.

Anyway, I personally don't think it's anything to worry about because it's about the past. Now that you've experienced it, you won't make the same mistake again. IMO, I think it would have been better off just letting him have fun. But you seem to actually care about a student, unlike many teachers that just don't care if they're getting the money.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm no smarty. =]

Here's Dom teaching a 6 year old:http://youtube.com/watch?v=wjY2KJnX30E

[Drummer Karl]

Rob, I wouldn`t worry too much about this kind of situation.
Children in this age usually have a hard time concentrating for a longer time or being really interested in one thing. I`ve had a young student of 10 years for one year and experienced what it`s like. You can`t go through 45 minutes of teaching or even 30 minutes. Though that depends on the student. There will be a lack of concentration, especially when doing formal lessons.
Another point is that young kids often have thousands of hobbies. My student decided to give it up because other things were in a priority position for him and he had no fun with drumming anymore. I respect this of course.

When being young, you might also expect more from taking drum lessons than working on technique or practicing on the pad first. I think in this age children are rather trying than doing. Influential are the parents and the personal enviroment of the kid. Some learned to learn, others learned to live....you know? So except that it is normal not to take something like drumming too seriously in this age, the enviroment influenced that anyway. There`re children trying it for two lessons and of course there`re ones who show more (what we would call) "maturity" and are more enthusiastic about it.

I think with your student it wasn`t the problem that he had a hard time but I think it was that he would probably not be able to care about it. Especially when being that young you would rather run away from the mountain you have to cross. Again, except that you can almost expect something like this from children in this young age breeding becomes important as well.

Having fun is always important. Motivating them makes it easier to cross the mountain of work. Honesty makes it easier although this is dubious in this age...unfortunatly. At least it seems. To support Rick`s statement, arrogate student, educate them but don`t ask too much of him/her.
So to draw a conclusion I wouldn`t say it makes no sense to teach students in this age but it`s harder.
Like I said, I wouldn`t make myself feel bad. It`s good that you were honest regarding the parent.

My thoughts about that...

Karl

[SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ]

When my oldest son was around 2.5 to 3yrs old I had him counting off his single strokes (with excitement), "one, two, one, two..." and he kept fairly good time. Of course, attention span at that age is fairly short, but I was pretty proud at that small feat he accomplished. Maybe he enjoyed it because at that time he was learning to count and say his numbers, etc.

I think you were right in your thought that this kid didn't realize there is more to playing drums than just banging on them. I think that's the challenge any teacher, regardless of instrument, has to convey for new students. I think any student with a true passion will have an easier time getting past that point. Still, even at 7 attention spans can be short. I wonder if there is a way you can work something fun into what he feels is fairly mundane. I'm not sure how you reacted to his 'sighing', but if you show impatience that could add to his lack of enjoyment. A teacher should always be giving positive encouragement, and not frustration (not that you have done this, but I'm just throwing it out there).

After all, maybe drums just aren't for him. I think different students cater to different teachers better as well. Maybe you just weren't the right teacher for him after all. I wouldn't sweat it man. There are more students and I'm sure once you get rolling it will become easier, and you will learn new methods to help students like the one you described.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

Son and Mom may have been upset at first but the fact that you were honest could bring them back in a few years, or it could steer the kid to something different. Not to worry.

[drumtechdad]

Seven is not too young for most kids; Suzuki method violin students start way before that. Still, they're all different, Mozart was composing operas at nine and some 12 year-olds I've had couldn't keep a steady tempo if their lives depended on it.

Sometimes with younger ones--depending on the student--it's better to come at things from the opposite side. Rather than show them quarter note notation, get them to play straight quarter notes. Anybody can do that. Then have them count 1-2-3-4 while playing them. Then show them quarter notes on the page and say, "See? You're already doing this." Let them see what they can already play rather than the other way around.

Originally Posted by drumtechdad

Seven is not too young for most kids; Suzuki method violin students start way before that. Still, they're all different, Mozart was composing operas at nine and some 12 year-olds I've had couldn't keep a steady tempo if their lives depended on it.

Sometimes with younger ones--depending on the student--it's better to come at things from the opposite side. Rather than show them quarter note notation, get them to play straight quarter notes. Anybody can do that. Then have them count 1-2-3-4 while playing them. Then show them quarter notes on the page and say, "See? You're already doing this." Let them see what they can already play rather than the other way around.

He was understanding the notation, but I could tell just counting the quarter notes was too much from him. I didn't spend too much time on it before we went to the drums and his frustration level was even higher there. So I had him just clap and I could tell he still just wasn't not having it. No matter what I did it seemed like an absolute chore to him. That was the only reason why I mentioned his age to his mother just to let her know that his age could be a reason why he's having a hard time. Up until that point I was keeping my thoughts on age to myself because I knew to give the kid a shot and see how he did first before I judged.

[Deltadrummer]

Originally Posted by drumtechdad

Seven is not too young for most kids; Suzuki method violin students start way before that. Still, they're all different, Mozart was composing operas at nine and some 12 year-olds I've had couldn't keep a steady tempo if their lives depended on it.

Sometimes with younger ones--depending on the student--it's better to come at things from the opposite side. Rather than show them quarter note notation, get them to play straight quarter notes. Anybody can do that. Then have them count 1-2-3-4 while playing them. Then show them quarter notes on the page and say, "See? You're already doing this." Let them see what they can already play rather than the other way around.

With the Suzuki Method, kids are taught to imitate their teachers. They do not learn how to read music, or identify rhythms and melodies. Imitation is a technique that works well with children

I always teach my kids backwards, which is not backwards, but the way we learn. In other words, you don't read Dickens first and learn how to speak and write or 'identify' the language later. Music, like speech, comes aurally. The notation comes later.
It may be a year and a half before you get through half the book. That's okay. It may be two years before you see the results you want to see. This can be hard for new teachers who want to see results. How do you give homework if the child can't read? It is up to the parent to help the child during the week. If the parent is uninvolved, you will always have problems.

[DamoSyzygy]

Was I wrong in expressing my view regarding his age?

Not necessarily. The honesty is good, but of course, when there are other teachers willing to teach kids as young as 4 around your area, it becomes hard to justify your beliefs, especially to the parent.

This was an issue I used to battle with almost daily. Mum or Dad wanted junior to play drums so bad they bought the kit, dumped him on a teacher and waited for results... Not once thinking to themselves "Hey hang on, does junior even WANT to play drums?"

Younger children require a different system of teaching in order to make the stuff sink in. Also keep in mind that at that age its all about fun. There will be plenty of time for the rudimentary and theoretical stuff when the childs brain has developed enough to allow for it. I personally didnt take any students under 12 years old because I knew I didnt possess the relevant skills to teach playgorup aged kids - Nor the willpower!