Odd Time Signature Thread

[spartacus1989]

How do you play grooves in odd time signatures?
Do we really need to push the boundry of 4/4 or 3/4 just to sound impressive?
When do you use odd time signtures? (do you use them?)

5 5 7 9 11
4 8 8 8 8

[zambizzi]

Originally Posted by spartacus1989

How do you play grooves in odd time signatures?
Do we really need to push the boundry of 4/4 or 3/4 just to sound impressive?
When do you use odd time signtures? (do you use them?)

5 5 7 9 11
4 8 8 8 8

I've really enjoyed what I've learned about odd time sigs so far. As with any drumming, it can sound good or it can sound bad, my advice is to make it groove. If you're doing odd time just to be weird, and it neglects the music, then you ought to re-think it.

My guitarist and I recently wrote a song where I use several odd time sigs. In the intro he'll play a riff in 7 and I'll play in 3/4. After 21 measures we switch to both of us playing in 7, my groove being in 7/4. The chorus is 4/4 using the same riff and groove...but there's an extra note at the end of the measure, obviously.

Later in the tune I alternate between 3/4 and 7/4 while he plays in 7...every 21 measures brings us back to "1".

It sounds great (we think)...it grooves, and it's very catchy. Once we've finished the arrangement and have it down pretty well, I'll post a recording. Then you all can tell me if we're being weird or actually producing "music"....ha!

[zambizzi]

Oh...and...another example. We have one other tune where I use both 13/8 and 7/4...the groove is quite unique and you have to listen carefully to notice the difference between the two time signatures...as it is only one extra note.

[Deathmetalconga]

Originally Posted by zambizzi

I've really enjoyed what I've learned about odd time sigs so far. As with any drumming, it can sound good or it can sound bad, my advice is to make it groove. If you're doing odd time just to be weird, and it neglects the music, then you ought to re-think it.

My guitarist and I recently wrote a song where I use several odd time sigs. In the intro he'll play a riff in 7 and I'll play in 3/4. After 21 measures we switch to both of us playing in 7, my groove being in 7/4. The chorus is 4/4 using the same riff and groove...but there's an extra note at the end of the measure, obviously.

Later in the tune I alternate between 3/4 and 7/4 while he plays in 7...every 21 measures brings us back to "1".

It sounds great (we think)...it grooves, and it's very catchy. Once we've finished the arrangement and have it down pretty well, I'll post a recording. Then you all can tell me if we're being weird or actually producing "music"....ha!

Holy cow! Those are menstrual cycle-disrupting odd time signatures!

Sounds like a fun exercise, but there's a reason why 95 percent of all music is in 4 and 4 percent is in 3 or 6 and less than one percent is something else. Most audiences just don't seem to dig it.

[stasz]

I say use them like you would other aspects of music- use them when they're appropriate for the feel of the song, and when they sound good.

In order to play them easily, I would say practice odd time signature playing slowly, with some sort of easy pattern to follow, whether it's a rock beat or anything else, and start to add in little embelishments to the beat until you feel like you can "feel" when the measure starts and ends, instead of having to count everything.

I totally agree that it can be a little annoying to play odd time signatures just to be, well, odd. But used tactfully they can really give a song a great feel.

[zambizzi]

Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga

Holy cow! Those are menstrual cycle-disrupting odd time signatures!

Sounds like a fun exercise, but there's a reason why 95 percent of all music is in 4 and 4 percent is in 3 or 6 and less than one percent is something else. Most audiences just don't seem to dig it.

Indeed, they may sound like aneurysm-forming time signatures but we managed to make them groove. The 3/4 portion of the song sounds like evil carnival music...a sort of "ooompah" with an ominous guitar riff. It all comes together rather nicely...we were grinning like idiots when we finally played it w/o totally barfing all over it. The guitar is very staccato so the notes are very clear on both guitar and drums, when they line up.

I have a fairly primitive "groove test" when we're arranging original songs. If I can't bob my head to it or tap my foot...and really get *into* listening to it...it's probably just too weird.

Thankfully (for us) we're doing more stuff in 4/4, 6/8, 12/8, etc. and we (hopefully) won't completely confuse the average listener.

[zambizzi]

Originally Posted by youenjoy00myself

In order to play them easily, I would say practice odd time signature playing slowly, with some sort of easy pattern to follow, whether it's a rock beat or anything else, and start to add in little embelishments to the beat until you feel like you can "feel" when the measure starts and ends, instead of having to count everything.

That's great advice! It really does come down to feel, you can't enjoy playing something or improvise very easily in odd time if you're constantly trying to count it out.

I've been using my Roland metronome. I'll set it to the "voice" that counts...it sounds like a robot but it will very clearly say "one, two, three, four, five...". I'll set it to 5, 7, 9, etc. and just play. Eventually a groove will form and I'll just play that same groove for a while, until it's somewhat internalized.

[Shinx]

Weird time sigs are fun

Even more fun are beats in weird timings that resolve to 4

[SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ]

I'd like to get into more odd time sigs for our songs. I'd also love to do the layered thing where we only match up every so and so measures. King Crimson exploits that stuff a lot. I love it.

Lately I have been doing a lot of compound time sig stuff and it's fun, but it's getting old. I need to break new personal ground. heh

[zambizzi]

Just for fun, here's an example of that song I mentioned earlier. In the first clip, I alternate between 3/4 and 7/8. In the second clip is the same 7/8 groove (which is actually 4/4 and 3/4 mashed together to make 7)

These recordings are *very* rough...we had practiced this for 2 hours that day and had just come up w/ this arrangement. So, sorry for your ears... :(

The third clip is a little groove I made up in 9...using both the hi-hats and ride together...opening the hats on "and" of 9.

P.S. - Looks like the mp3 file size limit is around 2mb now? It's misleading because it says 9.54mb in the chart on the upload panel.

[aydee]

Originally Posted by zambizzi

These recordings are *very* rough...we had practiced this for 2 hours that day and had just come up w/ this arrangement. So, sorry for your ears... :(

[/i][/color]

Zam! Funny, my guitar buddy and me were messing a while ago , and.... we sound just like you !, LOL. This is not odd time or anything, I was holding a straight-up 4, so that the guitar player could work his line out before the bass player showed up...

DrenAlin.mp3

[JWM]

There have been A LOT of commercially successful bands who have creatively used odd times and even had huge hit singles with them-- Tool, Rush, Pink Floyd, Soundgarden, the Flecktones, Radiohead, Zappa, Dave Matthews Band and even The Beatles.

And of course, Yanni.

Odd times don't always have to be "weird" ... the challenge is to make them flow and sound like an organic part of the music. In the end, it's just about good writing, and odd times are just another tool in the shed to be creative.

[aydee]

Originally Posted by JWM

Tool, Rush, Pink Floyd, Soundgarden, the Flecktones, Radiohead, Zappa, Dave Matthews Band and even The Beatles.

And of course, Yanni.

....Dave Brubeck, Thelonius Monk, Charles Mingus, Bach, Mozart, John Mc Laughlin, Chick Corea, Porcupine Tree..

Yanni ?

oops, I forgot you said commercially successful.

[zambizzi]

Originally Posted by aydee

Zam! Funny, my guitar buddy and me were messing a while ago , and.... we sound just like you !, LOL. This is not odd time or anything, I was holding a straight-up 4, so that the guitar player could work his line out before the bass player showed up...

Nice! That sounded great, man! The sound quality is nice, too...as you can tell, ours is pretty rough. Those clips are old, however, and we've since struck a much better balance w/ the one mic we've been using.

[aydee]

Originally Posted by zambizzi

Nice! That sounded great, man! The sound quality is nice, too...as you can tell, ours is pretty rough. Those clips are old, however, and we've since struck a much better balance w/ the one mic we've been using.

The 'sweet' 9/8 is really sweet. cant quite hear the bass drum. Maybe, its my laptop speakers. If the bass drum hits are where I think they are, then that really really cool groove. v

[zambizzi]

Originally Posted by aydee

The 'sweet' 9/8 is really sweet. cant quite hear the bass drum. Maybe, its my laptop speakers. If the bass drum hits are where I think they are, then that really really cool groove. v

Thanks, man! I hope the kick notes are where you think they are, then. :D

Here's the idea, though the image is half-assed, I couldn't figure out how to export a simple image from Finale Notepad. Nor could I figure out how to change the instruments...Notepad is quite limited compared to the full Finale program.

The hats are the notes above the bar and the ride notes are on the top line, so you can see how they alternate. The last note is the open hi-hat on the "and" of 9. All snare hits are done w/ the right hand, except for you freaky lefties ;)

It would be easy to take this groove and turn it into a 6/8, or mix the two...which might sound really cool, too.

[zambizzi]

Here's an example I made tonight - it's the 13/8 and 7/4 combo I mentioned earlier in the thread. I wanted a simple, linear, funky beat in 7/4 but found, after playing it, that by removing one of the kick notes, I also got 13/8.

The recording is sort of random, I switch between the two time sigs in no particular pattern...see if you can spot it. There are no fills as I haven't really developed it yet.

I like that it's simple enough to listen to without thinking "What the hell is that?". It's also really fun to play. If anyone wants a transcription, I'd be happy to do it.

[slingerland755]

Originally Posted by zambizzi

Here's an example I made tonight - it's the 13/8 and 7/4 combo I mentioned earlier in the thread. I wanted a simple, linear, funky beat in 7/4 but found, after playing it, that by removing one of the kick notes, I also got 13/8.

The recording is sort of random, I switch between the two time sigs in no particular pattern...see if you can spot it. There are no fills as I haven't really developed it yet.

I like that it's simple enough to listen to without thinking "What the hell is that?". It's also really fun to play. If anyone wants a transcription, I'd be happy to do it.

I enjoyed that. After a few bars, it really started making "sense."

[slingerland755]

Originally Posted by zambizzi

Thanks, man! I hope the kick notes are where you think they are, then. :D

Here's the idea, though the image is half-assed, I couldn't figure out how to export a simple image from Finale Notepad. Nor could I figure out how to change the instruments...Notepad is quite limited compared to the full Finale program.

The hats are the notes above the bar and the ride notes are on the top line, so you can see how they alternate. The last note is the open hi-hat on the "and" of 9. All snare hits are done w/ the right hand, except for you freaky lefties ;)

It would be easy to take this groove and turn it into a 6/8, or mix the two...which might sound really cool, too.

Could you record this one too?

[mr_hayward_99]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Drummers-Gui...2107051&sr=8-4

this is a good book for odd time signatrues

when i play odd time signatures a good way of making them groove is to count them in half time i.e. 5 would be 1 2 +

[zambizzi]

Originally Posted by slingerland755

I enjoyed that. After a few bars, it really started making "sense."

Thanks! It makes a lot more sense in the context of a song, which we're trying to work out. My guitar player came up with a really cool bluesy/trippy riff and chord progression on top of this but I don't have a good recording of it.

I'll post a better recording of the 9/8 groove tonight.

[zambizzi]

Sorry if I'm bogarting the thread but I wanted to post something I made up tonight during practice. It just popped out a few minutes before my guitar player showed up and I played it for me, here's what he did w/ it.

The first is the root concept of the groove, which is in 12/8...but is discordant you have to sit and count it to recognize the time signature. The second is what Dusty laid over the pattern when I'm on the hats, incorporating the toms into the groove. The third is what he did while I used straight notes on the ride, using the same groove concept.

http://luvchillens.com/12-8_upside-down_funk.mp3
http://luvchillens.com/12-8_upside-down_funk_toms.mp3
http://luvchillens.com/12-8_upside-down_funk_ride.mp3

[Deathmetalconga]

Originally Posted by zambizzi

Just for fun, here's an example of that song I mentioned earlier. In the first clip, I alternate between 3/4 and 7/8. In the second clip is the same 7/8 groove (which is actually 4/4 and 3/4 mashed together to make 7)

These recordings are *very* rough...we had practiced this for 2 hours that day and had just come up w/ this arrangement. So, sorry for your ears... :(

The third clip is a little groove I made up in 9...using both the hi-hats and ride together...opening the hats on "and" of 9.

P.S. - Looks like the mp3 file size limit is around 2mb now? It's misleading because it says 9.54mb in the chart on the upload panel.

Very cool stuff. Thanks for sharing.

[sshu]

Some folks like Dave Weckl and Neil Peart have talked about the concept of time and motion, where the motions seem to put the structure, form, and pace around grooving, etc., and it seems to preclude the need for counting. I've never had the chance to ask whether this concept applies for 4/4 meter only, or whether others have adapted it for other meters, precluding (or at least diminishing) the need to count. Maybe if you play enough different meters (e.g., 7/8, 11/8) you start to feel things ...

Thoughts?

Steve

[spartacus1989]

I like to watch people at progressive rock gigs attempt to do a 4/4 head bang to a 9/8 track!

[FloEy]

when does radiohead use odd time? Id like to hear this.