Losing it live...

sticksnstonesrus · #1 08-29-2007, 01:38 PM

Tempos, I mean.

Why is it that, sometimes...even when you've played the "best show of your life"...or at least it felt that way, you can still go back and look at DVD footage of yourself during the exact same show and become horribly disappointed at the accelerated and/or non-consistent tempos. Not all songs, just some. Apparently, we didn't practice the set enough...yeah right.

Why does the natural action to speed some things up and not realize it happen? Nerves?!?!

I've been doing this long enough to where I still get butterflies before a gig (I feel this is a vital part of staying humble) but not to the point where I forget what I've practiced day in and out for months. I guess my internal metronome just got shook and I'm just taking the good with the bad. I suppose we're all susceptable.

Thoughts?

bigbang · #2 08-29-2007, 02:03 PM

It's a pretty common problem , well sometimes a problem, sometimes not.
It is nerves or adreneline.
Maybe cut back on some of the fills in those particular songs that are'nt crucial or shorten some fills up.
Concentrate hard on staying in the pocket.
Tape some rehearsals and listen.Then do some adjusting.

Myself , I still get nervous after 25 years of playing. I just try to focus , deep breathing ,sort of a meditation and visualize myself nailing the show.

aydee · #3 08-29-2007, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sticksnstonesrus

Tempos, I mean.

Why is it that, sometimes...even when you've played the "best show of your life"...or at least it felt that way, you can still go back and look at DVD footage of yourself during the exact same show and become horribly disappointed at the accelerated and/or non-consistent tempos. Not all songs, just some. Apparently, we didn't practice the set enough...yeah right.

Why does the natural action to speed some things up and not realize it happen? Nerves?!?!

I've been doing this long enough to where I still get butterflies before a gig (I feel this is a vital part of staying humble) but not to the point where I forget what I've practiced day in and out for months. I guess my internal metronome just got shook and I'm just taking the good with the bad. I suppose we're all susceptable.

Thoughts?

Dave Weckl has talked a lot about recording himself ( in practices and gigs) to see the differences in what he 'thought' and what 'was'.

Its a great great learning tool, because I had the exact same reaction to my performance recording and the one that ran in my head.

Sure I get nervous , tight, dry mouth before a gig , even after 20 years, but my problem really was 'hearing all the music' that was being played on stage.

Lots of 16 notes didnt sound cool if the bass player was doing the same thing. If I'd heard the tape before the gig , I would have played 8th notes.....

Dont worry, it happens to everyone..... and staying humble, thats great : )

Jason Dorn · #4 08-29-2007, 02:23 PM

I think the best thing you could do for this is to practice to a click track. It makes keeping consistant time second nature. Stick with it though as its frustrating at first the damn thing seems to slow down ;)

sticksnstonesrus · #5 08-29-2007, 02:24 PM

Agreed. I've been trying to KISS this process more and more (Keep It Simple Stupid). In my 20 years behind the kit, it's probably been the hardest device to master...simplicity. And yes...We just started recording all of our gigs and and am starting to bounce them against the recorded practices. For the most part, I am satisfied that my adreanaline, while definitely off the charts sometimes, is slowing down with my age (and shoulder pain, lol). I've changed and considered changing some or more of the fill-lines...to honor the "simple". Just that sometimes, those harder and more complex have to be there...

My focus, great. Emotion and prescence, excellent. Simplicity, getting there. Staying in the pocket...working on it.

Thanks for encouragment.

Andy

Edit...have the click track. I don't practice with it as much as I should. It's like the dental floss for the drummer. Just freakin sits there sometimes...staring at me as if to say "you know you need me".

aydee · #6 08-29-2007, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sticksnstonesrus

Agreed. I've been trying to KISS this process more and more (Keep It Simple Stupid). In my 20 years behind the kit, it's probably been the hardest device to master...simplicity. And yes...We just started recording all of our gigs and and am starting to bounce them against the recorded practices. For the most part, I am satisfied that my adreanaline, while definitely off the charts sometimes, is slowing down with my age (and shoulder pain, lol). I've changed and considered changing some or more of the fill-lines...to honor the "simple". Just that sometimes, those harder and more complex have to be there...

My focus, great. Emotion and prescence, excellent. Simplicity, getting there. Staying in the pocket...working on it.

Thanks for encouragment.

Andy

Edit...have the click track. I don't practice with it as much as I should. It's like the dental floss for the drummer. Just freakin sits there sometimes...staring at me as if to say "you know you need me".

Moi, 45, playing about half of that, working on getting it right, then getting it right, the shoulder pains go away ; )....and hey, sometimes you have to mix things up a bit, if the other stuff is limp and dragging..

bigbang · #7 08-29-2007, 02:44 PM

Like Jason said , you should really work with a click of some kind.If you find a standard metronome too boring then maybe get a drum machine and program some interesting patterns to play along to.
I was under the assumption you were already using one.I just listened to a few of your songs on myspace and you're really not that far off. A couple minor things here and there but over-all not that far off.
One thing I used to do was : pick a beat
pick a tempo
and just play that beat for 10 minutes at a time with no fills whatsoever.
It's boring .....but it does help.And not only with your timing but, also with concentration.

good luck

jonescrusher · #8 08-29-2007, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sticksnstonesrus

A
My focus, great. Emotion and prescence, excellent. Simplicity, getting there. Staying in the pocket...working on it.

Thanks for encouragment.

Andy

Edit...have the click track. I don't practice with it as much as I should. It's like the dental floss for the drummer. Just freakin sits there sometimes...staring at me as if to say "you know you need me".

There's your answer, your internal clock isn't developed satisfactorily yet. Always work with a click during practice and concentrate hard on your hands or feet lining up exactly with the clicks. If practicing exercises on a pad make sure you don't tap your feet in trying to strengthen your time feel. Let your brain do this. Hard at first but the longer you keep at it the more internalised your time will become.

T.Underhill · #9 08-29-2007, 03:08 PM

I've recorded myself several times and what I think I'm playing is pretty close to what comes out live. Now I do lose it live sometimes. What it means to me is all of a sudden getting a mental block on what's going on. I dunno, it's rare but sometimes my timing just feels so bad to myself and it takes a song or two to get back in the pocket. Like consciously I feel loose and unsteady. Again, if I listen to it it's not too too bad but for some reason while on stage I felt like I was playing my worst. Anyone experience this?

TitanSound · #10 08-29-2007, 03:23 PM

^^ indeed I do.

We record all of our rehearsals as a band and sometimes when I am playing I think "hmm...thats gonna sound rubbish" and when I listen to the actual recording it sounds OK...much better than I remember it.

bigbang · #11 08-29-2007, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T.Underhill

I've recorded myself several times and what I think I'm playing is pretty close to what comes out live. Now I do lose it live sometimes. What it means to me is all of a sudden getting a mental block on what's going on. I dunno, it's rare but sometimes my timing just feels so bad to myself and it takes a song or two to get back in the pocket. Like consciously I feel loose and unsteady. Again, if I listen to it it's not too too bad but for some reason while on stage I felt like I was playing my worst. Anyone experience this?

I 've had that problem too , a couple of times.
I solved it by adjusting my mix in the monitors. Now , I take some time to get a mix that's good for me.
Do you think that might be it ? I don't know you're playing situation.

T.Underhill · #12 08-29-2007, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbang

I 've had that problem too , a couple of times.
I solved it by adjusting my mix in the monitors. Now , I take some time to get a mix that's good for me.
Do you think that might be it ? I don't know you're playing situation.

Hmm, that doesn't happen sometimes. Maybe I'm just not paying enough attention to what I'm not hearing.

stickers · #13 08-29-2007, 05:07 PM

On a side note, Has anyone noticed that musicians suddenly from dehydration after one song and need to drink a water or they might collapse?

stickers · #14 08-29-2007, 05:10 PM

Also for a lot of younger bands, I think they get shocked by how bad they really are once they listen to a live recording. It can be a real eye opener. Poor dynamics, erratic tempo changes.

But then all their high school mates tell them they sounded great! Then after the band gets out of high school no one goes to their shows and they wonder why....oh yeah your high school class mates weren't going because your band sounded great and the music was great, it was because they were in high school with nothing better to do than to go your show and tell how great your band when in reality it was all a farce! Silly high school rock band.

sticksnstonesrus · #15 08-29-2007, 05:45 PM

All great input. Thanks.

I used to play to a click religiously...this being years ago. Once I started getting serious again though, I didn't really believe that I had lost the internal metronome. I guess I really have and trust me, I know it and am active on bringing everything back into focus. Thing is, I have to do this while still moving forward on the music...remedial at the same time.

I'd say the most truthful statement is that I haven't done the boring hours of click-practice for a looong time. I know I need to get back to this and in fact...today I'm going back to school with my roots. I just need to practice without the band some more than I have been...something where I can focus on the rudimentary stuff.

Geoff Tipps · #16 08-30-2007, 04:20 AM

You know , that tempo stuff may not be all you, your band mates may be pulling or pushing parts as well.Now this isn't so bad if everyone is in the zone and moving as one but if you all aren't on the same page that's when it can get shaky.

sticksnstonesrus · #17 08-30-2007, 06:53 PM

Also agreed. Upon further viewings of the DVD footage playback, there were a couple instances where the guitar led in faster than practiced and or pushed the song(s). Authoritative beatings commenced and the such guitarist, with reprimand completed, is still crying in the corner until I choose to release him from punishment custody.

spleen · #18 08-30-2007, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sticksnstonesrus

Also agreed. Upon further viewings of the DVD footage playback, there were a couple instances where the guitar led in faster than practiced and or pushed the song(s). Authoritative beatings commenced and the such guitarist, with reprimand completed, is still crying in the corner until I choose to release him from punishment custody.

Ah, crouched in the corner sobbing like a drunk at a wedding! As well he should be--screwing with the time is a terrible thing to do to the people you're playing with (I say that having angered a few musicians myself in the past by playing some crap time)!

FWIW, it always struck me how I could detect the slightest of tempos changes while listening to a recording but wasn't nearly as perceptive when playing with other musicians. For this reason, I've found a good skill is to be able to "take a step back" while you're playing and listen to yourself and the band as if you were hearing a recording. I don't listen this way all the time I am playing but it's useful to "check in" once in a while by doing this.

For other ideas regarding tempo maintenance, Peter Erskine's "Time Awareness for All Musicians" addresses the subject fairly well.

spleen

BrynnerAgassi · #19 08-31-2007, 01:59 AM

I have been in that position many times, I felt as if the music was great, the gig was 101%, then you go back and listen to it and figure out that...... Ummmmm Why the hell did I do this, or that!
Honestly it happens, and happens to everyone, and 99% of the time the audiance never seems to see or hear what happened, its just us the musicians on stage... Or sometimes the guys on the side of the stage listening to you and takeing apart everything you do...

Somethings I did and really saw work was, before the gig I would work up a sweat, run, walk, play drums, do anything, just to get your heart going, and so when you get on stage your already pumped up to go, not just pumped up because your freaking out cant wait to play and not knowing how it will sound... Trust me it makes a big difference...

Sometimes what I have done in the past with some bands was, we had a practice room with some gear already there, and just started playing the set from top to bottom... It helps get the last minute jitters out, and enables you to focuse once your on stage and really just feel as if it is 2nd nature.

All in all, its good to be a bit nervous, and you have the goose bumps come over you... But just remember it happens to everyone, and until you reach the point that you are playing the same gig, same stage, same songs, night after night... its going to happen, and there is nothing wrong with that!

Slazaar · #20 08-31-2007, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stickers

Also for a lot of younger bands, I think they get shocked by how bad they really are once they listen to a live recording. It can be a real eye opener. Poor dynamics, erratic tempo changes.

But then all their high school mates tell them they sounded great! Then after the band gets out of high school no one goes to their shows and they wonder why....oh yeah your high school class mates weren't going because your band sounded great and the music was great, it was because they were in high school with nothing better to do than to go your show and tell how great your band when in reality it was all a farce! Silly high school rock band.

Tell me about it. I'd suffer 3 hours sitting in an assembly legs folded on the ground once a week listening to trash bands with nothing even CLOSE to music, plus, the singers dont sing, so yea you get what i mean, looks like some people are in the same boat here lol

rockitman · #21 09-01-2007, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sticksnstonesrus

Also agreed. Upon further viewings of the DVD footage playback, there were a couple instances where the guitar led in faster than practiced and or pushed the song(s). Authoritative beatings commenced and the such guitarist, with reprimand completed, is still crying in the corner until I choose to release him from punishment custody.

This makes little sense to me. As you said in your origianl post your concerned about your inconsistencies. These tales of the tape will assist in your quest for better timing.
Won't they also help the guitarist? Why punish him ? You played badly too.
Getting back on topic :
Do not just play rudimentary stuff with your click. Play your songs with the click. From beginning to end, without accompaniament of any type. When you can do that then you really KNOW the tune. Otherwise your just playing along, waiting for clues on what to do next.

Deltadrummer · #22 09-01-2007, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sticksnstonesrus

Tempos, I mean.

Why is it that, sometimes...even when you've played the "best show of your life"...or at least it felt that way, you can still go back and look at DVD footage of yourself during the exact same show and become horribly disappointed at the accelerated and/or non-consistent tempos. Not all songs, just some. Apparently, we didn't practice the set enough...yeah right.

Why does the natural action to speed some things up and not realize it happen? Nerves?!?!

I've been doing this long enough to where I still get butterflies before a gig (I feel this is a vital part of staying humble) but not to the point where I forget what I've practiced day in and out for months. I guess my internal metronome just got shook and I'm just taking the good with the bad. I suppose we're all susceptable.

Thoughts?

I ry to practice things slower than tempo and feel out new grooves. It is amazing how changing key can change the feel of a song; but changing tempo, well that's a different story.

sticksnstonesrus · #23 09-01-2007, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockitman

This makes little sense to me. As you said in your origianl post your concerned about your inconsistencies. These tales of the tape will assist in your quest for better timing.
Won't they also help the guitarist? Why punish him ? You played badly too.
Getting back on topic :
Do not just play rudimentary stuff with your click. Play your songs with the click. From beginning to end, without accompaniament of any type. When you can do that then you really KNOW the tune. Otherwise your just playing along, waiting for clues on what to do next.

It was mean't to be funny. Sorry if it wasn't.

I know. Working all sides on the consistency issue. With click, without click, with music, without music, with band, without band. In the end, it's just another version of that thing...what it called??? Oh yeah...practice. (sorry...another stab at trying to be funny)

And yes...we all took something from the DVD. Vocals, backups, drums, guitar, bass, the lighting guy, even the sound board engineer....ha...and even again..another stab.

slingerland755 · #24 09-05-2007, 04:15 PM

Early in my playing career, I always hated the fact the the rest of the band could look back at me, and "blame" me for playing at the wrong tempo (or pushing, pulling, etc). However, once I started using a click, I love the fact that I could look at them (when they had a question mark in their eyes) and just smile. My bass player loved his beer, well after a few beers guess who got tired? He started dragging the band or thought things were too fast. I would just look at him with an air of confidence and shrug off his glances.
It's also a beautiful tool for "inner" meter. After years of that click in my head, I can tell the instant the meter fluctuates. Although, I will say that if one uses a click, try and keep it as low as possible and/or put a little foam earplug in your ear first. I have been suffering from tinnitus for 15 years (24 hours a day 365 days a year).

Bottom line...using a click is just one more tool a drummer can use to keep from "losing it live."