DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > Drum Gear > Heads and Sticks

Heads and Sticks Discuss Heads and Sticks

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 07-28-2007, 11:03 AM
Budiesel's Avatar
Budiesel Budiesel is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Urbana, Illinois
Posts: 246
Default Best heads for un-mic'd show?

I'm planning on playing some gigs, but my drums will not be mic'd, so I was wondering out of these heads would give the best sound to the audience..

Evans clear EC2
Evans clear G2
Evans coated G2
Aquarian coated Respone 2
Aquarian clear Studio X

Help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[ #100 post :) ]
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-28-2007, 01:40 PM
konaboy's Avatar
konaboy konaboy is offline
Pioneer Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Midwest, USA
Posts: 2,484
Default Re: Best heads for un-mic'd show?

What kind of drums and what wood are they made of ?
__________________
"how are you living your Dash?"
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-28-2007, 05:22 PM
Budiesel's Avatar
Budiesel Budiesel is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Urbana, Illinois
Posts: 246
Default Re: Best heads for un-mic'd show?

maple ludwigs

20202020
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-28-2007, 05:54 PM
larlev
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Best heads for un-mic'd show?

All of them.......20
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-28-2007, 06:23 PM
konaboy's Avatar
konaboy konaboy is offline
Pioneer Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Midwest, USA
Posts: 2,484
Default Re: Best heads for un-mic'd show?

I'd probably go with G2 over G1 or a G1 over G1 (might try a resonant glass if you do the G1 batter) just depends on how good you are with tuning and how much you want them to sing. I think the EC2 for unmic'd might be a little too dead, not enough projection as the sound cuts off quicker.
__________________
"how are you living your Dash?"
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-29-2007, 06:15 PM
drumtechdad's Avatar
drumtechdad drumtechdad is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Anytown, USA
Posts: 1,107
Default Re: Best heads for un-mic'd show?

Try and go with as little muffling (built-in or add-on) as possible. When you play unmiked your drums will sound much livelier and will cut through the band much better. This goes for BDs, too.

The more muffled it sounds to you from the driver's seat, the more dead and lifeless it will sound from the audience.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-31-2007, 12:32 AM
cdrums21's Avatar
cdrums21 cdrums21 is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Here, there and everywhere
Posts: 1,189
Default Re: Best heads for un-mic'd show?

Quote:
Originally Posted by drumtechdad View Post
Try and go with as little muffling (built-in or add-on) as possible. When you play unmiked your drums will sound much livelier and will cut through the band much better. This goes for BDs, too.

The more muffled it sounds to you from the driver's seat, the more dead and lifeless it will sound from the audience.
Agreed. If it was me, I'd go with a single ply coated head on the batter such as a Remo ambassador or an Evans G1 over a clear ambassador or G1. I'd want the drums to resonate to their fullest in order for the tonality of the drums to be heard in an unmiked situation. I'd also put a full head on the front of the bass drum with just a tad of muffling to take away just enough of the "boingyness". Your drums would kill unmiked, be a heck of alot of fun to play and they'd sound great to the audience.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-02-2007, 07:22 AM
Cymbalrider's Avatar
Cymbalrider Cymbalrider is offline
Pioneer Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 1,611
Default Re: Best heads for un-mic'd show?

Coated Single Ply heads work the best for any occasion really. Another choice is the J1 or Renaissance heads. These are still resonant but warm. Felt strips work great for bass drums to control the sound without killing it. Just look at all those guys who used to play before drum mics existed...
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-02-2007, 07:29 AM
Skitch's Avatar
Skitch Skitch is offline
Pioneer Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Nashville
Posts: 2,737
Default Re: Best heads for un-mic'd show?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdrums21 View Post
Agreed. If it was me, I'd go with a single ply coated head on the batter such as a Remo ambassador or an Evans G1 over a clear ambassador or G1. I'd want the drums to resonate to their fullest in order for the tonality of the drums to be heard in an unmiked situation. I'd also put a full head on the front of the bass drum with just a tad of muffling to take away just enough of the "boingyness". Your drums would kill unmiked, be a heck of alot of fun to play and they'd sound great to the audience.
No disrespect menat here, but you could eliminate the front head altogether (a front head will muffle the drum to a certain extent). Just like concert toms versus double-headed toms, concert toms are louder.

A long time ago in a living room to distant to remember, I did use a single-head bass drum (Remo Pinstripe) and it was really loud. No muffling either - except of cource for the Pinstripe head.

Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-02-2007, 08:39 AM
aydee aydee is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,293
Default Re: Best heads for un-mic'd show?

ive played both, single headed, both work in different situations, but personally dont like the single headed sound anymore. Am now a great believer in drums with a sustaining tone ( especially un -miked, which makes pain- in the -butt sound guys not kill your drums with dampening).
Also, I'd go with Cdrums advice. He KNOWS his drum sound.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-02-2007, 09:47 AM
harryconway's Avatar
harryconway harryconway is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Pasadena, California, U.S.A.
Posts: 9,110
Default Re: Best heads for un-mic'd show?

I'll agree that with a band roaring, last thing you're gonna need is 2 ply heads batter. The rest is up to you, how you want your drums to sound. Since I'm a Remo guy with a 6 ply Ludwig maple kit in big sizes, Ambassador, Controlled Sound or Powerstroke 3 would be my choices over Ambassadors. Evans would be the G1 or EC1 over G1's.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-02-2007, 11:48 AM
cdrums21's Avatar
cdrums21 cdrums21 is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Here, there and everywhere
Posts: 1,189
Default Re: Best heads for un-mic'd show?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skitch View Post
No disrespect menat here, but you could eliminate the front head altogether (a front head will muffle the drum to a certain extent). Just like concert toms versus double-headed toms, concert toms are louder.

A long time ago in a living room to distant to remember, I did use a single-head bass drum (Remo Pinstripe) and it was really loud. No muffling either - except of cource for the Pinstripe head.

Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw
No disrespect taken and none meant in return, but to my ears, the single headed bass drum sounds alot deader and more "staccato" to me than one with a full head on it. Volume? I'm not really sure, never A/B'd them, but I know that with a full head on my bass drum, it is huge and very loud, much more presence than a single headed drum. That's the message I'm trying to convey...I think a full head on the front of a bass drum, or both heads on the toms for that matter, gives the drums much more presence and tone, which can be perceived as volume in an unmiked situation and make the drums sound bigger.

Last edited by cdrums21; 08-02-2007 at 01:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-02-2007, 11:51 AM
fijjibo's Avatar
fijjibo fijjibo is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: MK, ENGLAND
Posts: 1,487
Default Re: Best heads for un-mic'd show?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdrums21 View Post
No disrespect taken and none meant in return, but to my ears, the single headed bass drum sounds alot deader and more "stacatto" to me than one with a full head on it. Volume? I'm not really sure, never A/B'd them, but I know that with a full head on my bass drum, it is huge and very loud, much more presence than a single headed drum. That's the message I'm trying to convey...I think a full head on the front of a bass drum, or both heads on the toms for that matter, gives the drums much more presence and tone, which can be perceived as volume in an unmiked situation and make the drums sound bigger.
All that is true, But it might also be wise to cut a very small port in the front bass head to convey some of that lovely attack to the audience.

Mind you, maybe Im wrong....
__________________
My site!!!


Im back (unofficialy) with Pro.Mark Drumsticks. (TX5ABW)
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-02-2007, 01:03 PM
cdrums21's Avatar
cdrums21 cdrums21 is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Here, there and everywhere
Posts: 1,189
Default Re: Best heads for un-mic'd show?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fijjibo View Post
All that is true, But it might also be wise to cut a very small port in the front bass head to convey some of that lovely attack to the audience.

Mind you, maybe Im wrong....
From my experience, even a small 3 or 4 inch port removes alot of the "boom" from the kick drum and kind've defeats the purpose of having a full front head on there. I don't think the port really would convey that much attack to the audience, but that's my opinion. I never actually tried it to see if there was a difference. If one is playing in an unmiked situation, it's probably a smaller, more intimate setting. The audience should get anhialated with a well tuned, full headed kick drum. For my money, the full front head is the way to go in a smaller venue unmiked.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-02-2007, 02:56 PM
Sirwill's Avatar
Sirwill Sirwill is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Southington, Ohio
Posts: 585
Default Re: Best heads for un-mic'd show?

Go with the clear Remo ambassadors there sound is killer. For the kick use a Remo clear powerstrok 3 or 4 best bass head ever made in my opinion.
__________________
" Rhythm In The Hands Of Few" Billy Twinem
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-03-2007, 01:19 AM
kenwardc's Avatar
kenwardc kenwardc is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Berkshire, UK
Posts: 25
Default Re: Best heads for un-mic'd show?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdrums21 View Post
Agreed. If it was me, I'd go with a single ply coated head on the batter such as a Remo ambassador or an Evans G1 over a clear ambassador or G1. I'd want the drums to resonate to their fullest in order for the tonality of the drums to be heard in an unmiked situation. I'd also put a full head on the front of the bass drum with just a tad of muffling to take away just enough of the "boingyness". Your drums would kill unmiked, be a heck of alot of fun to play and they'd sound great to the audience.
Hi there - butting in to this one as I'm in the same position. I'm being told my Pearl Reference kit is not loud enough. I'm wacking it as hard as I can but it's just not cutting it through the noise of the band. I will mic them but I still want the best sound for those occasions when I am not using the mics.

The main problem with my kit is the toms. I have 10 x 8, 12 x 10 and 14 x 12. They have the heads on that they came with - I think they are coated Remo heads. Would clear heads do the job better? Any help appreciated.

Cheers
Chris
__________________
Pearl Reference in Crystal Rain - LOVE IT!
22x18, 10x8, 12x9, 14x14,14x6.5
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-03-2007, 02:45 AM
Drum-Head's Avatar
Drum-Head Drum-Head is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toulouse, France
Posts: 940
Default Re: Best heads for un-mic'd show?

Would you guys agree to say that it depends on what is played also?

I've found in my experience that if you have some double bass parts to play, a full head will loose the definition of the sound. I once played a gig on someone else's kit that had a full head, and there was so much resonance that I had a hard time hearing if I was being tight or not on the kick. Thus getting more of a "BmmBmmmmm" sound rather than a "duggadugga" if you get my drift...

If I was making this decision I would take into account the following:

- style of music: if you play samba you probably do want that non ported reso on your kick, if you play metal you might want a little port to get some attack from that kick. For the rest of the kit you'd want to choose your heads depending on what volume level you have to compete with (the volume level of your band mates) with brings me to the next...

- venue size: if you are going to play in a small venue, double-ply head won't hurt if you like to have some punch. If it's a relatively big venue, you might want that extra projection from single ply heads on your kit. Remember that single-ply heads project more and double-ply heads have more attack.

Just my two cents, keep in mind that I'm no authority on this matter... But I hope I helped a little.
__________________
"Absorb what is useful, discard what is not, add what is uniquely your own."
- Bruce Lee
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-03-2007, 04:58 AM
Budiesel's Avatar
Budiesel Budiesel is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Urbana, Illinois
Posts: 246
Default Re: Best heads for un-mic'd show?

Thanks for all of the posts. I have coated G2's over Clear G1's on my toms now, Evans EMAD and Aquarian Regulator w/ 4.5 hole. They sound awesome in my drum room.

My family is having a Labor Day party, and I have 4 uncles that play music, my dad plays, lots of cousins and friends. They will all be here, but my drums will not be mic'd. We are going to play outside, so would my currents heads work well? Or should I go with single ply batter?

Keep em comin!
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-03-2007, 08:03 AM
harryconway's Avatar
harryconway harryconway is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Pasadena, California, U.S.A.
Posts: 9,110
Default Re: Best heads for un-mic'd show?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenwardc View Post
. I'm being told my Pearl Reference kit is not loud enough. I'm wacking it as hard as I can but it's just not cutting it through the noise of the band.
Sounds like another case of the rest of the band needs to turn down. You did your part, you got a totally pro kit. Now it's time the guitar and bass get their "act" together. There's a time for half-stacks and SVT's and then there are times the combo amps need to be used.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08-03-2007, 08:17 AM
harryconway's Avatar
harryconway harryconway is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Pasadena, California, U.S.A.
Posts: 9,110
Default Re: Best heads for un-mic'd show?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Budiesel View Post

My family is having a Labor Day party, and I have 4 uncles that play music, my dad plays, lots of cousins and friends. They will all be here, but my drums will not be mic'd. We are going to play outside, so would my currents heads work well?
Outside Labor Day backyard party? How loud is everyone else gonna be (?), would be the main question. If you have an uncle showing up with a Mashall half stack and a 5150, game over. On the other hand, a couple Fender Deluxe amps and everyone will get along nice.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 08-03-2007, 09:00 AM
Skitch's Avatar
Skitch Skitch is offline
Pioneer Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Nashville
Posts: 2,737
Default Re: Best heads for un-mic'd show?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdrums21 View Post
From my experience, even a small 3 or 4 inch port removes alot of the "boom" from the kick drum and kind've defeats the purpose of having a full front head on there. I don't think the port really would convey that much attack to the audience, but that's my opinion. I never actually tried it to see if there was a difference. If one is playing in an unmiked situation, it's probably a smaller, more intimate setting. The audience should get anhialated with a well tuned, full headed kick drum. For my money, the full front head is the way to go in a smaller venue unmiked.
Wasn't the big hole in the center of the drum head supposed give more attack and less boom - i.e the logo head which came on Yamaha Recording series drums.


Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 08-03-2007, 11:52 AM
cdrums21's Avatar
cdrums21 cdrums21 is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Here, there and everywhere
Posts: 1,189
Default Re: Best heads for un-mic'd show?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skitch View Post
Wasn't the big hole in the center of the drum head supposed give more attack and less boom - i.e the logo head which came on Yamaha Recording series drums.


Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw
Yes, you are right. When fijjibo said about cutting a very SMALL port in the head, I didn't think that that would really send out much attack and it would kill the resonance factor of the full head. The big hole in the front head will definitely give more attack and less boom.

[quote=drum-head] Would you guys agree to say that it depends on what is played also?

I've found in my experience that if you have some double bass parts to play, a full head will loose the definition of the sound. I once played a gig on someone else's kit that had a full head, and there was so much resonance that I had a hard time hearing if I was being tight or not on the kick. Thus getting more of a "BmmBmmmmm" sound rather than a "duggadugga" if you get my drift...

If I was making this decision I would take into account the following:

- style of music: if you play samba you probably do want that non ported reso on your kick, if you play metal you might want a little port to get some attack from that kick. For the rest of the kit you'd want to choose your heads depending on what volume level you have to compete with (the volume level of your band mates) with brings me to the next...

- venue size: if you are going to play in a small venue, double-ply head won't hurt if you like to have some punch. If it's a relatively big venue, you might want that extra projection from single ply heads on your kit. Remember that single-ply heads project more and double-ply heads have more attack.

Just my two cents, keep in mind that I'm no authority on this matter... But I hope I helped a little.[quote]

Good point on the style of music being played. I really didn't take that into account.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 08-03-2007, 07:16 PM
dharma bum's Avatar
dharma bum dharma bum is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 118
Default Re: Best heads for un-mic'd show?

The heads you have on there right now are fine. Generally, playing outside the sound disappears much more quickly than in a room, so you want to max the sustain - but as harryconway said, you have a pro kit, let the other guys adjust to you. It's certainly not worth buying new heads just for this gig!
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 08-03-2007, 07:16 PM
drumtechdad's Avatar
drumtechdad drumtechdad is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Anytown, USA
Posts: 1,107
Default Re: Best heads for un-mic'd show?

In decades of playing I never learned this, because I never heard my drums from the audience. But it only took a couple times out teching for my son to make me see the light.

When unmiked, bass drums that boom carry; bass drums that thud do not. Set up a bass drum as you would for a miked situation and no one will ever hear it unmiked.

As cdrums21 has said, the same holds true for toms and snares. Let 'em ring! If you muffle them to "sound like a record" from the driver's seat, they'll sound dull and lifeless from the audience, and they won't carry through the band nearly as well.

Point taken about the double bass metal-music thing, though.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 08-04-2007, 02:19 AM
konaboy's Avatar
konaboy konaboy is offline
Pioneer Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Midwest, USA
Posts: 2,484
Default Re: Best heads for un-mic'd show?

Yeah if this is a one time gig I wouldn't go buying new heads, what you have will work. Though I would try to set them up a little earlier than the rest of the band so the heads and everything can settle from the heat and humidity which means you will need to TUNE them once they are out there. I'd give them 15-30 minutes before I spent anytime working on the sound. You might find you can go with a little more open tuning to get a little more projection. After you tune them stand about 30 feet away and have someone else play them so you can truly hear what they will sound like.
__________________
"how are you living your Dash?"
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 08-04-2007, 03:06 PM
cdrums21's Avatar
cdrums21 cdrums21 is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Here, there and everywhere
Posts: 1,189
Default Re: Best heads for un-mic'd show?

Quote:
Originally Posted by drumtechdad View Post
In decades of playing I never learned this, because I never heard my drums from the audience. But it only took a couple times out teching for my son to make me see the light.

When unmiked, bass drums that boom carry; bass drums that thud do not. Set up a bass drum as you would for a miked situation and no one will ever hear it unmiked.

As cdrums21 has said, the same holds true for toms and snares. Let 'em ring! If you muffle them to "sound like a record" from the driver's seat, they'll sound dull and lifeless from the audience, and they won't carry through the band nearly as well.

Point taken about the double bass metal-music thing, though.
I knew there was something about this guy that I liked!! :o)
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 08-20-2007, 12:36 AM
kenwardc's Avatar
kenwardc kenwardc is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Berkshire, UK
Posts: 25
Default Re: Best heads for un-mic'd show?

Quote:
Originally Posted by harryconway View Post
Sounds like another case of the rest of the band needs to turn down. You did your part, you got a totally pro kit. Now it's time the guitar and bass get their "act" together. There's a time for half-stacks and SVT's and then there are times the combo amps need to be used.
Hi there, Harry

You're right and with the regular band I am forever telling 'em to "turn it down" and it really works - singing, drums - everything sounds better.

However the spot I (was!) getting told I wasn't loud enough was at one of the Shadows Clubs I go to on a regular basis so that the "Hank Marvins" of the world have a backing band, complete with drummer. It sometimes seems to get louder and louder until I feel like I'm swimming in noise... but.. ALL OVER now - I put G2s on the toms over G1s and fitted the snare with Evans HD Dry. The bass drum has a great Masterworks head on it (batter) and ported Evans on the front. Sounds absolutely great. With the new clear heads on the toms and the HD on the snare I no longer use ANY muffling at all - on any drum, including the kick. Volume has gone up a factor of at least two, and... they can hear me at any level now! :D

All that stuff about not muffling and letting them resonate - works like a dream. Thanks, folks!!

Cheers
Chris
__________________
Pearl Reference in Crystal Rain - LOVE IT!
22x18, 10x8, 12x9, 14x14,14x6.5
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com