recording with a click track

[bontempi]

Hello

here's a question for pro studio drummers : how often do record with a click track (if you ever record without ...) ? which instrument gets recorded first most of the time ?

thx

[hawk9290]

I'm not pro, but have recorded before (both drummer and mixman).

Always with a click track- i recorded once without it and wanted to shoot someone after hearing all the subtle changes in tempo, its those little things that get to me.

I'm partial to recording the drums first- and if I can I prefer to put down the bass track at the same time in a seperate room or and iso booth or something just to save time (and if I'm drumming I like to have the bass as well). Also, I like to have just like a basic rehearsal track or something playing with my click as well so that I make sure to hit all the points of the song in the right place.

[Timekeep69]

I've recorded both with and without a click track. Without is definately easier and quicker and some music sounds better with the subtle tempo changes that can occur.

In my experience, drum tracks are laid first.

[hawk9290]

Originally Posted by Timekeep69

I've recorded both with and without a click track. Without is definately easier and quicker and some music sounds better with the subtle tempo changes that can occur.

true, it is much easier and you can focus entirely on playing. perhaps what made me dislike it is that the other instruments had their little time changes to, and so on some of the breaks, the tempo's wouldn't quite correspond and all the Pro-Tooling in the world couldn't put it back together smoothly.


I should also note, that I don't play a click live because there I do like it to be as much of the true sound as possible- no backing tracks, no clicks, no bull...

[jjmason777]

Back in the early days of recording, the entire band was recorded together. Most engineers still like to record the basic tracks that way, then overdub vocals and solos. But these days with all the digital multi-tracking, there are no rules. Maroon 5 recorded "Songs About Jane" to sequenced MIDI drum tracks, then added the live drums later. Whatever works best for you. I like to have something to play to, at least to follow the arrangement better. If I have to record drums first, then I definitely play with a click, but it takes practice to be able to lock into the click. When you first start to play to a click track, your timing will be WORSE, because you are focused on listening to the click, and you will be chasing it. Practice with a metronome sometimes. I will point out that a lot of big acts use sequenced MIDI tracks, or pre-recorded tracks LIVE, making it essential that the drummer plays with a click, to sync up with those tracks.

[Paul Quin]

For clarity, and by way of full disclosure, I no longer solely earn my living by playing the drums. I have, however, recorded many, many times both with and without a click. Of course, in a perfect world, we would all prefer to play without a click but in reality it is often necessary, especially if any of the parts are sequenced. Accordingly, if you want to record you absolutely do need to learn to play with, and by comfortable and relaxed with, a click. I was once told that the best way to play with the click is to come to a psychological reassesment of what the click is. By that I mean that you should try to think of the click as input from another musician and not a dry mechanical impediment to your "feel." For that reason I would always try to use a different sound rather than a "click." For me, the best way to lock in with a click was to have either a quarter note click with a cross-stick or cowbell sound on the 2 and 4 or, if the tune was particluarly slow then an eighth note click with a cow bell on each quarter note. I have also had incredulous looks for the engineer when I keep asking to turn the click up in the headphone mix. I think the click should be the loudest thing you hear. That way, it is easier to play on the click, slightly behind the click or out in front of the click. When you are deviating from the click (either laying back or advancing it), you should try to focus on pushing or retarding the click with the backbeat and not with the eighth note hi-hat pattern. This is very subtle and very hard to do well. Listen to Jeff Porcaro to hear a master at playing just behind the click.

In regards to what instrument is recorded first, it depends on the sound you want to achieve and it may depend on your producer. If it is a rock session, there is a good chance that the producer will want to lay down the entire rhythm track down at once. So, you may be playing (and recording) with the bass player, rhythm guitar and keyboards with a guide vocal. Remember, however, that the other musicians still have the opportunity to drop in if they make a mistake. That is a benefit usually not afforded to the drummer. In other situations the other musicians may just be laying down a guide and you are the only one actually being recorded.

It is rarer for other parts to be recorded before the drums are laid down, but it does happen. In those cases you better hope that the other folks were playing to a click or your role becomes much more difficult. For an example of a drum track recorded over the top of an already recorded tune check out "Walk Between the Raindrops" by Donald Fagen on his Nightfly album. The tune was recorded to a drum machine and then Steve Jordan substituted his playing for the drum machine. His playing grooves and swings so perfectly that you would never know that he wasn't the first person recorded.

Just my thoughts - hope this helps.

Paul

[bontempi]

thanks everyone
great reading

personally i prefer the natural feel of a drum track recorded without a click. something that's bound to disappear it seems when i hear the radio... too bad

i know about midi sequencing, but a good keyboardist can do the job live :)

[AlexM]

I always record to a click. Its changes from song to song, but usually a scratch guitar and vocal are recorded first, then I track my drums over that.

I used to have a problem with click tracks, they made me feel inferior and like a bad drummer. But then I realized that its just a reference, not a crutch.

[BellsOfRhymney]

You can hear metronome leakage from headphones on Zep recordings. Byrds too.

[SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ]

When I record my solo stuff, I typically lay down the guitar or bass first to a click. Then I will record the drums, sometimes with a click. Recording to a click showed me that I needed more practice with a metronome. You can still groove while keeping time, which I think is the key.

I wouldn't worry so much about leakage unless it is taking over the mix. There's a cool thread over at TapeOp talking about summer recording projects, and a couple engineers have mentioned their window A/C units showing up in the mix. All part of an organic sound I believe.

[aegir77]

Originally Posted by SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ

You can still groove while keeping time, which I think is the key.

I .

Exactly, because a lot of drummers have a great groove but when they start playin to a click track they sound so robotic and weird... you have to make yourself comfortable with the metronome until you reach a point where you don't need to pay attention to it, and you''ve got a tight groove.

Pro drummers who completely dominate the click, like Vinnie Colaiuta, sometimes play behind or ahead the click but just a really small fraction of time, to makes the groove sound different. If you hear it with the click, it may sound weird, but if you hear the track, it sounds amazing
. When the groove's kinda pulled back a little bit, it sounds funky and full, and when you'e pushing the groove it sounds rocking ( happens a lot in live performances of rock bands who play with click).

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by aegir77

Exactly, because a lot of drummers have a great groove but when they start playin to a click track they sound so robotic and weird... you have to make yourself comfortable with the metronome until you reach a point where you don't need to pay attention to it, and you''ve got a tight groove.

Pro drummers who completely dominate the click, like Vinnie Colaiuta, sometimes play behind or ahead the click but just a really small fraction of time, to makes the groove sound different. If you hear it with the click, it may sound weird, but if you hear the track, it sounds amazing
. When the groove's kinda pulled back a little bit, it sounds funky and full, and when you'e pushing the groove it sounds rocking ( happens a lot in live performances of rock bands who play with click).

Bingo! Although a click track is good for odd-time sigs when recording.

[SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ]

Since this thread was brought up again, I'd like to add a little more to my original post. As I said, when working on my solo stuff I start with guitar or bass and do that to a click. On my current recording, I actually sequenced a very basic scratch drum track because there are rhythm and meter changes that I had a hard time feeling to a straight click when I played the guitar parts. The scratch drum track helped a lot. Next I'll record bass, and then record the real drums more than likely without the click or scratch drum track because the guitar and bass will be there to guide me. I like recording to a click because it helps me layer things in time with ease. I typically start my recordings with guitar because that's how the song originates for me. I don't come up with the drum part until after the guitar is recorded. There was only one exception to that, when one of my songs was inspired by the drum track instead. I think it's more typical in a band setting to start with drums though, because the song is already written and everyone knows their parts.

Now, in contrast, when I record with my band mate we don't use a click. We just play like we normally do live (together), and that's the way it is. I even suggested that we start our recordings with just a room mic as a scratch track, and then over dub on top of that, even replacing the scratch drums and guitar.

Recently some friends of mine recorded in a 'real' studio, and they did the drums and bass first together, but the bass was just a scratch track to help the drummer. Then everyone came in and overdubbed- vocals being last.

Definitely no hard set rule. Whatever works for you. This was a topic recently on another forum I frequent, and quite a few members preferred recording their drum parts to other rhythmic scratch tracks as opposed to a robotic click, such as percussion loops.

[drumtechdad]

Originally Posted by SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ

You can still groove while keeping time, which I think is the key.

Indeed, if you listen to almost any of Jeff Porcaro's or Jim Keltner's work you know it was done to a click yet the grooves sound so alive--and with a backbeat that's ever-so-slightly behind. Amazing.

[Eric]

I've done the majority of my studio work without a click, but some with. I do a lot of modern, interactive jazz stuff, and I have to say, playing jazz to a click is the WORST! A lot of jazz musicians rush the click, and instead meeting them halfway, I have to ignore them and play where the click tells me too. One time they replaced a solo after the fact, so I sound like I'm totally ignoring the soloist! I think where one puts their time is such a deep part of how one expresses oneself (regardless of what musical style) that it's a shame people choose to give up that part of their playing to a robot. And I've never been asked to "lay down the drum track." Everyone plays together, get it in two or three takes, then fixes and overdubs. Most CDs I'm on are recorded over the span of two or three days.

[thebrza]

Originally Posted by BellsOfRhymney

You can hear metronome leakage from headphones on Zep recordings. Byrds too.

Happened a lot back then since stuff was recorded in analog environments. You'd sometimes get stuff bleeding from one track. Even on newer analog boards I've muted a channel and still heard it coming through one of its neighbors, albeit much quieter.

[drovja]

I was watching a band record in a kind of home studio type deal without the greatest equipment, and due to the click bleeding through the drum mics, the drummer ended up playing without one. It was a mess trying to get everything lined up again, because all of the parts were recorded one at a time layering on top of the others. The fluctuations were so severe that in post production they ended up cutting the drum track to shreds and dragging the backbeat to where the click was just to line everything up.

I think it's very important not to sound stale and robot like when playing with a click, but I do know that they can help everyone work together to be better.

[joshgarlow]

Try SIMPLE CLICK TRACKS. They're available on iTunes OR at www.simpleclicktracks.com

[Buzter]

I've used clicks several times...most without while recording. I wish I had used a click everytime. I hear recordings I've done with bands and say to my, I wish I had used a click because sometimes like during the bridge of the song the tempo hanges slightly. It's almost unnoticeable but I know it. Sometimes it's good to let it breath a little but if your synching video and playing to prerecorded tracks while recording it's a must.

[balboa]

my prog group im in is going to record soon. ive been pressing the issue of recording with a click. ive also said that perhaps the bass and guitar should make a scratch track, to the click, that i can listen to when laying my drum tracks down. the guitarist claims that he has never used a click to record in the 20+ years hes played, and that our tempo changes are so subtle it doesnt matter. my worry is if they mess up slightly during the recording that i might as well, or that they may get fatigued after playing our intense songs over and over again. they claim that they wont and that i shouldnt worry about it. ive never recorded with a click personally, but i almost would rather than to leave anything to chance. while it may take longer, i do work a lot with a metronome, our finished product will be dead on accurate. do bands like Rush, King Crimson and Dream Theater use a click to record???

[dcrigger]

Originally Posted by BellsOfRhymney

You can hear metronome leakage from headphones on Zep recordings. Byrds too.

Sorry, but I seriously doubt it. The use of click tracks when making pop records before the mid to late 70's was extremely rare - Sly's use of home/organ rhythm units come to mind with Fresh in '73 - but that wasn't "let's play to a click to keep the time perfect" but rather a way early attempt at blending lo-fi drum loop-type stuff with live playing.

Read Steve Jordan's last few interviews in MD, regarding how to this day so many of the best feeling pop records are tracked without clicks.

David

[dcrigger]

Originally Posted by drumtechdad

Indeed, if you listen to almost any of Jeff Porcaro's or Jim Keltner's work you know it was done to a click yet the grooves sound so alive--and with a backbeat that's ever-so-slightly behind. Amazing.

Can't speak to Jim's current work - but Jeff was railing constantly against the use of clicks - as a horrible compromise of a track's chances of really feeling good. As Jeff told in many clinic/interviews, the use of clicks (beside their original use for timing purposes in Film and cartoon music applications) started in the early/mid 80's as a requirement if an artist was going to make use of the then new process of sequencing. Before we had the ability to create the sophisticated tempos after the facts like we can now - at the beginning of sequencing it was necessary to pre-print the songs timing reference to tape before recording in order to be able to lock up later. But Jeff, having done many a hit record prior to this knew that this took away all his ability to "massage" the groove as the session proceeded. It became very difficult and time consuming to "just try one a smidge slower" - or "just sit back a bit in the bridge" - all of these subtleties had to be pre-concieved which of course was - and still is - impossible.

So he, like everyone since, does their best "to make the best of it" - but all the while with someone like Jeff knowing that you're not going to get a "Lowdown" that way (unless you are very lucky).

As for Jim Keltner - the only stuff I know for sure would be the "Painted from Memory" CD he did with Elvis Costello and Burt Bacharach - no clicks throughout. Also the track I played with Elvis and Burt for The Spy Who Shagged Me - no click there either. Count it off - full rhythm section - two horns in a booth - strings overdubbed later.

Anyway, the main point - just because clicks are so commonly used today (some would say overused) that it has always been so. It was still very much only an occasional thing on music sessions way into the late 80's.

But the 60's and 70's - hardly ever! If one of those records groove and the tempo is ruler flat - then trust me, you can be pretty sure you can chalk it up to simply, great playing. :-)

David

[Bart Elliott]

David Crigger,

Did you use click on any of the Drum Drop recordings?
Just curious.

Back in the 70's I remember playing along to Drum Drops and stealing your grooves and fills ... but I don't have the vinyl to check for myself. I didn't know what a pocket was back then, but I did know that the tracks felt great!

[balboa]

does the use of a click really take feel away, i mean motzart and all the greats have tempi written on their music? it is rather tricky to use a click when recording if your not familiar with it, but does it really take feeling away from music?

[dcrigger]

Originally Posted by Bart Elliott

David Crigger,

Did you use click on any of the Drum Drop recordings?
Just curious.

Back in the 70's I remember playing along to Drum Drops and stealing your grooves and fills ... but I don't have the vinyl to check for myself. I didn't know what a pocket was back then, but I did know that the tracks felt great!

Hi Bart -

Yes, we did. For two reasons: 1) I was playing by myself - as you know, a whole different thing than playing along with a rhythm section. 2) We wanted people to be able to copy the stuff onto reel-to-reel and be able to edit it - so really wanted the beginning to match the end for that reason.

I did tons of other projects with that same producer around that same time and where we never considered using clicks - for the reasons mentioned earlier in the thread. But Drum Drops by design - was a "one track fits all" sort of thing. Drum tracks to be used for any number of songs. Actually quite the novel concept back then, when all drums on records were custom conceived and perform from scratch for each specific recording. There were no loop libraries or drum machines, period.

Oh and thanks for the complement on the feel - though per this topic - I cringe thinking back to the last time I heard any of those and noticing all the occasional click corrections.

David

[dcrigger]

Originally Posted by balboa

does the use of a click really take feel away, i mean motzart and all the greats have tempi written on their music? it is rather tricky to use a click when recording if your not familiar with it, but does it really take feeling away from music?

balboa - Yes, but go listen to recordings of Mozart and hear how those tempi markings are interpreted.

Actually most classical music isn't marked "1/4 note equals xxx bpm" like we use today - it is marked "Andante" " Allegro" " Grave" "Presto". Relative terms - conveying the intent of the general tempo, but always assuming the conductor and/or ensemble will use their best artistic sense for the most effective tempo for that performance that day with that ensemble.

As to "does the use of a click really take feel away?" Absolutely - some examples:

Let's consider this very typical chunk of music - the last for bars of the song's bridge just really builds - chords ascending, lots of chunking 1/8ths just pushing forward to the next section....where we are returned to the same groove as the second verse. Now, of course, blatantly rushing during that build will sound out-of-control and amateurish, but for it notch up in tempo a few bpm could very likely not only sound OK, but actually quite "right" and exciting.

In other words, if it creeps that magical little bit - then no one hears rushing, they just hear excitement, energy.

So a good rhythm section left in charge of the time (no click) might allow that little surge in tempo, ramping up to the downbeat of that next verse --- where they would immediately return to the original tempo -- right on the downbeat.

We've heard this done a million time on records - put any number of classic rock records up in ProTools and do a through tempo map and you can see it. Or don't, just go back and listen for it.

Anyway what happens when using a click? One of two things: 1) The rhythm section allows the little surge - and of course, by the downbeat, gets ahead of the click. Which means they then can't just return to the original tempo - no - they have to slow down briefly below the original tempo to get back "on the click". And since there is nothing in the music to justify this "slow down" (this time spent playing below the original tempo of the song) it sounds horrible. So number #1 is clearly not a good choice. So:

2) Don't allow that build to surge _at all_ - thus the band never gets ahead of the click, and then doesn't have to slow down to make the correction. But in many cases, the end of the bridge just doesn't feel as good; it's tame; lifeless; more conservative - just less than it could have been. Part of the potential feeling of the record has been lost.

Another example - End of a chorus, there's a one bar break for the singer to sing a line bringing us back to the original groove. In numerous classic records, you can hear that the singer's performance of that solo line is actually setting up up the groove and bringing the band back in. And on countless records, that includes having the singer sit on the line a bit resulting in the break bar being a bit slower than the rest of the original tempo. Doesn't this screw up dancers? - No, they're usually singing right along with the very line. But it does lock the singer in with the track - makes it sound like the track is really backing up the singer as opposed to the singer being just something that was added to the groove later.

With modern clicked records you hear the damage of the click usage constantly - there's a break, the singer sings the line and the track just comes in wherever the click dictates - whether it fits with the singer or not. Again a loss to the groove of a record.

And keep in mind these are gross obvious examples - great groove recordings done without clicks have dozens of little tiny nips and tucks to the time. All of which may be technically wrong (if one believes that "on the grid" always equals right) but make the record feel the way it does.

Finally don't think I'm "across the board" anti-click - I use clicks a lot. Not just on sessions as a sideman, but also on my own productions. They are an extremely valuable tool and their use is paramount for a lot of the "build tracks one part at a time" working world we find ourselves in.

But are clicks musically cost free? - no bad with the good? Absolutely not. Every use of clicks puts the piece of music in question at risk of being a bit more sterile, lifeless, and emotionless. That's just the way it is. But at least awareness of this, allows us to avoid as many of the pitfalls as we can.

David

[balboa]

does a band like rush or yes use a click? if so, they dont appear to be losing any feeling. im up in the air about the click thing, i can see what your saying about losing any feel, but can that be overcome by good writing? i do know that in a live setting you want the music to "live and breath", but on a record should it be to the same extent? Personally i wouldnt know if i went from 100bpm to 103bpm during the chorus of a song to really drive it. my group is about to record, and we have good solid timing, should we let our music breath a little to achieve emotion or do it to a click?

[dcrigger]

Originally Posted by balboa

does a band like rush or yes use a click? if so, they dont appear to be losing any feeling.

As for Rush or Yes, using a click - short of lots of time spent analyzing on the computer hard to know for sure. But again, good rule of thumb for this - is when was it recorded? (Don't know - look it up at allmusic.com)

60"s and 70's - highly unlikely

80's - possibly, but not for sure

90's-present - quite a bit more likely, but still not universal by any means.

[quote] im up in the air about the click thing, i can see what your saying about losing any feel, but can that be overcome by good writing? [?QUOTE]

Don't see how? Writing is one thing. Performance is another. Though if the style of the performance is in a genre with strong history of drum machine use - some r'n'b, house, hihop and techno dance styles - then a flat, ruler perfect tempo is far more expected by the ears than other genres.

i do know that in a live setting you want the music to "live and breath", but on a record should it be to the same extent?

I think that is a distinction as to what one can "get away with" more than a goal criteria for the music in general.

Personally i wouldnt know if i went from 100bpm to 103bpm during the chorus of a song to really drive it.

Maybe - but if you were used to doing that - and you'd listened to it back (work tapes, rehearsal tapes, live tapes) and it felt good - then you put yourself in a click environment at 100bpm, you will notice it and you will need to compensate.

Now if that compensation feels even better - than great you just corrected a bit of unnecessary rushing. But on the other hand, it doesn't sound as good - then you just compromised your track.

my group is about to record, and we have good solid timing, should we let our music breath a little to achieve emotion or do it to a click?

If you're contemplating recording your group with a click - then I would hope you've been practicing with one. If not, you should be. And not just you as the drummer, the whole band needs to hear the click, if you are all going to play to it. Just use a drum machine, a Dr. Beat, whatever. Don't wait till you are in the studio to both get used to playing your songs that way, but also don't wait till then to decide what tempos to use for which songs. Trying to do this on-the-fly in the studio is always a recipe for disaster.

As far as practicing with the click, preferably everyone should be using headphones or even earbuds to hear it - that way you can do little rough recordings to see how it truly feels - with the click/without the click/ at different tempos/etc. If you can't swing that, then run the click through the PA or monitors or an amp so everyone can hear it. You may get groans about this - as there are many an inexperienced player that will try to convince you that staying with the click is your problem, and that simply isn't true - it is everybody's problem.

But the click blasting into the room with really compromise your ability to analyze those work tapes. A mini four or five way headphone/earbud system just isn't that hard and expensive to throw together and will really help you evaluate those work tapes.

And those work tapes are so important - because there is no one right or wrong answer to the "should we use a click or not?". Not even song to song for the same band. It all depends on what sounds better. There is no one size fits all answer. Rush might have used a click throughout one album and then not on the next, except for two of the songs. They hopefully used the technique they thought was working better for them in each circumstance.

So find out and decide what actually sounds better - for your band - for each song - before you step into the recording studio.

I'm sorry, I wish I could give you that - "Here, just do this" confidence building answer - but it just doesn't work that way. So you and band gets a chance to explore some of this before subjecting your self to the pressure of the studio.

Have fun,

David

[Skitch]

Originally Posted by dcrigger

As for Rush or Yes, using a click - short of lots of time spent analyzing on the computer hard to know for sure. But again, good rule of thumb for this - is when was it recorded? (Don't know - look it up at allmusic.com)

60"s and 70's - highly unlikely

The cick track was introduced in the 1970s as one my friends had a hit song which utilized a click track/keyboard in the recording. Rush, like many other bands, has used sequences live, as the fact that there are two guitar parts in the concert along with multiple keyboard parts and a bass guitar line at the same time. In the studio, during the time period you are talking about, quite possibly.

Originally Posted by dcrigger

80's - possibly, but not for sure

90's-present - quite a bit more likely, but still not universal by any means.

As the 80s hit, keyboard and synthesizer sounds became more prominent. Songs like Vital Signs on the Moving Pictures album were more than likely utilizing a click since Geddy Lee would only have to set up a loop and have the whole keyboard part of the song ready.


As far as Yes goes, more than likely on the 90125 album and tour,. I was at the concert for this one and the live performance of Owner of a Lonely Heart was spot onthe album. It is kind of hard for Trevor Rabin to play three guitar parts on one guitar, especially since one of the guitar parts is acoustic.




This isn't to discredit or diminsh the musicianship of the bands mentioned, but the use of sequences and click tracks has been going on in a live setting for a very long time.


Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw

[PQleyR]

Originally Posted by BellsOfRhymney

You can hear metronome leakage from headphones on Zep recordings. Byrds too.

Which Zep recordings, out of interest?

[dcrigger]

Originally Posted by Skitch

The cick track was introduced in the 1970s as one my friends had a hit song which utilized a click track/keyboard in the recording. Rush, like many other bands, has used sequences live, as the fact that there are two guitar parts in the concert along with multiple keyboard parts and a bass guitar line at the same time. In the studio, during the time period you are talking about, quite possibly.

Mike - actually the click track goes back to the 30's. Originally generated, if you can believe this, by someone actually punching holes in film stock with a hand punch - one for each click. Later and for decades, the Urei click generator was a standard piece of gear in virtually every pro studio the world over.

As the 80s hit, keyboard and synthesizer sounds became more prominent. Songs like Vital Signs on the Moving Pictures album were more than likely utilizing a click since Geddy Lee would only have to set up a loop and have the whole keyboard part of the song ready.

Well Moving Pictures was 1981 - a few years before what we think of as sequencers existed. What did exist was analog sequencers. Which is exactly what the 16th note synth part of Vital Signs sounds like - a single line, no polyphony, typical analog sequencer part. And what a pain they were to work with -

First, they don't sync to anything. Worse, there was no tempo display. Which the tempo was set by turning a knob - with no readout. And until the Roland MC-4 - the first quasi-digital sequencer a couple of years later - there was no memory.

You programmed the part by tuning a pitch knob - Vital Signs' sequence has 16 notes - that would have been 16 pitch knobs to adjust. Then hit play and adjust the tempo knob to the tempo you want - and then - "NOBODY BREATHE ON THAT KNOB" as you may never find that exact tempo again.

Which meant, when recording the most common approach for a song like Vital Signs would be to print that one bar melodic loop on tape for the whole length of the song and use it for a click. Yes, having to listen to it, even through all the sections that it didn't fit. Or alternately after printing the sequence all the way through, have the drummer go in and overdub stick clicks all the way through and use those as a click (then the seq. could be muted where it wasn't wanted). Because again that sequencer couldn't sync to anything - so you had one pass of the tape and that established the time/tempo base. Everything past that was human overdubbing.

I know, sounds arcane today, compared to what we can do with our laptops - but that was state of the art. I did this a lot in 1979-1980 with the albums I did with Klaus Doldinger's Passport group in Germany. That was in Munich where all the Georgio Moroder dance/early techno stuff was being done - and their process was the same; preprint all the sequence stuff in a single pass, then overdub.

And though that may sound like that means like now, where you can press a button and this part plays for awhile, then fifteen other parts come in, then some different stuff. No the most you could is strap multiple analog sequencers together - each hand programmed and each playing different parts. Get them all playing at the same time, and then either print them all to different tracks or manually mute and un-mute them while recording until you had captured the performance you wanted. Being very sure it was what you wanted - because there was no overdubbing of the "machine stuff".

Which of course brings us back to Jeff Porcaro's point - OK now you have all this stuff printed, you bring in the rhythm section and finally get to hear the meat of the record and realize "wow, this would really feel better, a bpm faster or slower". Oops, too late now. And possibly very costly to the overall groove of the record for some stylish, fad of the moment sonic ear candy.

As far as Yes goes, more than likely on the 90125 album and tour,. I was at the concert for this one and the live performance of Owner of a Lonely Heart was spot onthe album. It is kind of hard for Trevor Rabin to play three guitar parts on one guitar, especially since one of the guitar parts is acoustic.

First off - studio and tour - two completely different things.

I have the vinyl of this and it's not with me, but just popping on the iTunes music store and listening to the clips there it is pretty obvious that at least much of that album isn't with a click. And for the album the multitude of parts has no bearing on that at all.

As for live, if indeed all the extra guitar parts were there, at that time circa 1983-1985, then they would have been playing to tape with a reference click to keep time in headphones at least for the drummer. Or possibly - they were using a Emulator or Fairlight to trigger chunks of audio on the fly - a very difficult gig from the drum chair; having to jump the tempo to match wherever the aux keyboard happen to hit the sampler key. I did that for years with Dionne Warwick and Burt Bacharach trying to line up live with Stevie Wonder's harmonica solo in the middle of "That's What Friends Are For".

So yes, there is lots of possible ways to do all of this stuff - there always have been and it is now easier and more versatile than ever - but to loosely paraphrase Steve Jordan your really good record producers all know that when trying to make a great feeling hit record there is no substitute for having a crack rhythm section in the studio with the singer (at least doing a scratch) all at the same time.

David