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  #41  
Old 07-06-2007, 11:05 PM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

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Originally Posted by ironcobra View Post
but the majority of everyone on here seems to think the electric kits sound horible and acoustics sound amazing......but what acoustics are you comparing the e kits to? surely you can be saying a pearl vision sounds better then an electric, even though all of you still say acoustics sound better, im going to stick to my idea that electrics sound better.
Comparing flagship e-kits to entry level acoustics is pointless, since the prices don't really correlate. The Roland TD20 costs some $8,000. With that cash you could buy any high-end kit with a good amount of top notch cymbals. Even the TD3 costs around $1,500 -- a sum which will buy you a great second-hand kit with great second-hand cymbals. Of course one could debate that you would have to buy several acoustic kits to achieve the amount of sound variations of an e-kit, but that's just not true. I mean, one good kit will work in any musical setting if you use correct heads and tune properly. How many different, good sounding kits one really needs?
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  #42  
Old 07-06-2007, 11:10 PM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

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Originally Posted by ironcobra View Post
i know what your saying, but i mean, with the click of a button, you can change from a metal snare, to a wood snare, to an african drum, in a matter of seconds.

if only i could replace the toms on my acoustic with the ones on my electric, that would sound amazing
What happens after the novelty factor wears off ? All those points about pulling different sounds out of an acoustic kit by tunings , hit placement and velocity all add to the expression and personality of a player.It doesn't matter how awesome the sound of an ekit , how many sounds it holds you simply won't pull any personality out of it. It sounds like you like the ekit becuz you don't have to do any work - it's tuned , sounds nice right away and technique isn't as important.
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  #43  
Old 07-06-2007, 11:12 PM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

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Originally Posted by Geoff Tipps View Post
What happens after the novelty factor wears off ? All those points about pulling different sounds out of an acoustic kit by tunings , hit placement and velocity all add to the expression and personality of a player.It doesn't matter how awesome the sound of an ekit , how many sounds it holds you simply won't pull any personality out of it. It sounds like you like the ekit becuz you don't have to do any work - it's tuned , sounds nice right away and technique isn't as important.
your right it some ways, im a sucker for a really nice sounding simple beat, but hey man, dont make me sound like a lazy n00b that sucks at drumming, cuz that wouldn't be true, plus im still playing my acoustics soooooo yeah..
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  #44  
Old 07-06-2007, 11:15 PM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

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Originally Posted by ironcobra View Post
your right it some ways, im a sucker for a really nice sounding simple beat, but hey man, dont make me sound like a lazy n00b that sucks at drumming, cuz that wouldn't be true, plus im still playing my acoustics soooooo yeah..
He never said anything insinuating that. I agree with what he said. I personally get the feeling that you like the e-kit most because you don't have to worry about tuning, trying different heads, and doing things to get a particular tone out of the drum. You also don't have to worry about your personal touch because you can just choose a sound that fits what you want to hear no matter how you hit it. That's the impression I get by this post.
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  #45  
Old 07-06-2007, 11:30 PM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

Okay, I think this is one of those situations where you have to say to ironcobra: That's nice, hope you enjoy it, but don't push your mantra on acoustic drum purists. You're not going to win the battle, because we're never going to prefer e-kits to our acoustic kits, even if they're low end. It just won't happen.
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  #46  
Old 07-07-2007, 12:24 AM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

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Originally Posted by kung_f00 View Post
Okay, I think this is one of those situations where you have to say to ironcobra: That's nice, hope you enjoy it, but don't push your mantra on acoustic drum purists. You're not going to win the battle, because we're never going to prefer e-kits to our acoustic kits, even if they're low end. It just won't happen.
the last thing i want is for this thread to turn nasty, everyone think about flowers, plus, i still think acoustics are better(if you could only have one) but i just dont see how anyone should(or can) go without an electric

its kinda like buying a car, without windows or seats or a trunk, just the moving parts. i think you need both to experience really what can be achieved on both electric, or acoustic, or the two combined.
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  #47  
Old 07-07-2007, 02:05 AM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

Just keep working on your stick control. To get a good sound out of a kit you need to be able to play solid strokes, dynamically. If your technique is good then you'll get a good sound out of a kit of any quality.

Turning your back on the acoustic is not a good idea. It's easy to get addicted to the E kit and get put off getting on the real thing, I've done it myself. It made me sad hearing myself play when i did finally play again

Anyway, using a E kit live doesn't look so hip.....
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  #48  
Old 07-07-2007, 02:12 AM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

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Originally Posted by ironcobra View Post
i totally agree that the sound is hard to change with different styles of hitting, but its not as bad as you think, when it comes to volume+hit power its it works out just as good as an acoustic, but getting different sounds off of different points on the pad is useless.
Actually, since I've been playing (and messing with, and adjusting, and readjusting, and messing with) my electrics for over 4 years now, I'm pretty sure it's exactly as "bad" as I think. ;) But that's just the point: that's what I think. It's all about what we need, expect, and receive out of our respective kits and whether it suits us or not.

To me, no amount of playing with the sensitivity and other settings is ever going to make a PD-120 feel, respond, play, or "sound" (bearing in mind that the sound is limited by the sample) of my acoustic snares. Since I'm big on what I can get out of my snare, I feel limited when I play my electrics.

I'm in near total agreement with you regarding the pads sense of strike location. At most you get a half-trigger or a volume drop. Weak. :D (As I understand it, the pads that are standard on the TD-20s, compared with the updates to the brain, go a long way in closing the gap, but as someone mentioned, who can afford them? :) )

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but besides all of the thoughts about about ekits and akits, i think with a big enough amp, and a very good set of roland's, the electric sets will give you very excellent sounds + much better variety
I agree on the versatility, which is why I'm about to start researching how I want to mount some of my pads and my brain around my acoustic kit. I love having nearly a thousand sounds at my disposal. But, overall, when it comes to playing in my band, I have tweaked up a kit and made a copy of it with a couple of minor changes. Two "kits". That's what I play 99% of the time. So really, after the novelty wore off, they're like having a normal kit to me. I do some other stuff with them on occasion, but lately I haven't had the time.

Regarding the amp, I've found that unless you're playing in a very small venue, the "one powered amp" approach (such as using a keyboard amp or the like) falls down very quickly. At higher volumes, it becomes much harder to get good low end, and the cymbals suffer a great deal since everything is getting washed out. The best sound I have gotten was at a venue with twin subs and really nice main cabs, and plenty of wattage pushing them.

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im going to stick to my idea that electrics sound better.
Hey man, that's great. I'm just going to maintain that both have their application and place. "Sounds better" is in the ear of the beerholder. ;)
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  #49  
Old 07-07-2007, 02:28 AM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

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Originally Posted by ironcobra View Post
the last thing i want is for this thread to turn nasty, everyone think about flowers, plus, i still think acoustics are better(if you could only have one) but i just dont see how anyone should(or can) go without an electric

its kinda like buying a car, without windows or seats or a trunk, just the moving parts. i think you need both to experience really what can be achieved on both electric, or acoustic, or the two combined.
I'm going to buy a VERY cheap E-Kit one day just for practice purposes.

That said I've played an E Kit extensively in stores and at friend's house. I don't like the feel and I'm farm more interested in a Starclassic with any cymbal combination I want than I am in a V Drum set with crappy feeling cymbals and poor dynamic range. I always feel that the tones are unnatural and the resonance is completely fake. That's just me. I could NEVER give up Acoustics and I doubt I would ever play an E kit live and feel really good about it.
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  #50  
Old 07-07-2007, 02:39 AM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

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Originally Posted by ironcobra View Post
i think you need both to experience really what can be achieved on both electric, or acoustic, or the two combined.
You may be right , but for most people money is an issue. I would say that most would be in an either or situation with what they purchase. If it was me and I had saved enough to buy a new akit or an ekit I would go for the akit.Even a thing like a Roland SPDS costs About 800 bones in my neck of the woods.Personally that 800 would go to cymbals.And just so you don't think I am a acoustic purist , I am currently working with the SPDS along with my kit. Renting it. It is fun and can do lots of neat tricks but I find programming it and tweaking it take just as much time as working on rudiments , tuning and technique.It's fun but I'm not sure I want to spend that cash on a peripheral for my drums.
Having said that , you seem to be having a blast with the ekit and can afford it so if that's what you prefer then cool, that's what you prefer.
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  #51  
Old 07-07-2007, 05:00 AM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

I don't own one, but I would really like to have an e-kit. I play them all the time, and they are really fun especially since you can switch through sounds and I would be able to play the drums all the time...but I don't think they would replace acoustic ones for me.
Because when I'm at guitar center, yeah, I like to play the e-kits, but its only for the fact that I know I'll never get off their Starclassic, DW's or any other nice kit they have set up there.
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  #52  
Old 07-07-2007, 06:36 AM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

There are pro's and con's to an electic kit. yeah you can switch around differnt sounds,types, and control options. the down side is your creativity level will plumit drasticaly.

Stay true
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  #53  
Old 07-09-2007, 03:37 PM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

I have both.
my e-kit is great for practicing and sounds decent but I would never give my acoustics up.
They feel totally different.

Why say your done with acoustics, why can't you play both?
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  #54  
Old 07-09-2007, 07:41 PM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

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Originally Posted by ironcobra View Post
i just dont see how anyone should(or can) go without an electric

its kinda like buying a car, without windows or seats or a trunk, just the moving parts. i think you need both to experience really what can be achieved on both electric, or acoustic, or the two combined.
Yeah, exactly, that's why Buddy Rich was such a lousy drummer. He never played an electric kit, just a horrible sounding Slingerland.
Besides, I'd love to own a car without windows or a trunk.

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  #55  
Old 07-09-2007, 07:56 PM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

i played some like 4000 roland at guitar center, and no me gusta.

I went into it unbiased, just to see if i liked it and i didnt. The sound was delayed, and when id id fast rolls onlike the hi-hat or snare it didnt take every hit.

Not to mention you couldnt manipulate bell sounds, rim shots, side stick, etc.
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  #56  
Old 07-11-2007, 04:52 AM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

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well today i went out and rented an electronic drumset, so that i could become more familiar with the control module, and i have to say, im never going back to acoustic

being able to switch to completly different sound kits with the push of a button, and having drums that sound professional, i cant see any other way. i dont know what it is that keeps people playing acoustic, but i suggest trying out an electric for more then an hour (if you havn't) , although i might buy another cymbal for my acoustic, the rest of my drumming will probably go to electric.

i know im going to get cyber bullied for this, but what can i say? i can't belive i didn't buy one of these before
the problem is how they sound when you start doing moeller or real fast push pull or even doubles it sounds very electronic. the loss of dynamics is also a disadvantage as well. but, as far as using a variety of kits and weird "play-alongs", its pretty amazing. i play a dt extreme for rehersal purposes, but for the actual recordings i go acoustic. the option to have a professional sound when rehersing with the band or even alone, and the ability to hear really well and get certain intricate parts tight is a great advantage of the electronic kit
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  #57  
Old 07-11-2007, 04:55 AM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

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There are pro's and con's to an electic kit. yeah you can switch around differnt sounds,types, and control options. the down side is your creativity level will plumit drasticaly.

Stay true
Bruiser
personally anything that allows me to have such a vast variety of drums and percussion enhances my creativity level
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  #58  
Old 07-11-2007, 05:02 AM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

i say if the man wants to play an electric kit let him, its not worth arguing over.. i personally love acoustics but i mean theres another 20202 other drummers with acoustics
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  #59  
Old 07-11-2007, 05:20 AM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

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Originally Posted by balboa View Post
the problem is how they sound when you start doing moeller ---
How can the movement of your arms translate into the sound of an e-kit?
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  #60  
Old 07-11-2007, 01:11 PM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

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Originally Posted by Wavelength View Post
How can the movement of your arms translate into the sound of an e-kit?
I think I understand what he means......the sound produced has a threshold or limit and when the pad is struck at peak power and the sound comes out sounding digital.
That make any sense ?
Same when you play a closed stroke roll.
I guess you'd have to try a kit to experience it.

Also I've never been limited creatively on an e-kit .....if anything it broadens your creativity.
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  #61  
Old 07-11-2007, 02:12 PM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

Well, as an owner of a Td8, a mid-range Roland ekit, dynamic range is adequately reproduced, that is, you can play using Moeller technique and execute accented and unaccented strokes whether playing down, up, full or tap strokes. OK, there are only a few dynamic levels, but the mesh heads are touch sensitive and the rims are triggered also.
A different touch is required to play the Roland kits over an acoustic, hence why its never a good idea to stick solely to these kits.
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  #62  
Old 07-12-2007, 08:43 AM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

I won't listen to fake drums.
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  #63  
Old 07-12-2007, 03:01 PM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

Music sound issues aside, I think a big concern we're not talkin' about is the attitude of the bandleaders you plan to work with. If you're going your way exclusively, what are you going to do if you're contracted for a big show and the money man looks over at your kit and asks where are your real drums? Are you going to give him this pros and cons and stuff? If you do, you'll just be told to leave and they'll have another drummer on stage before you've finished your tear down. If this was me I think I'd still stay up on my acoustic while flirting with this.
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  #64  
Old 07-12-2007, 05:17 PM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

IM SORRY, I WAS WRONG, ACOUSTIC KITS ARE WAY BETTER, I GUESS IT JUST TOOK ME A FEW DAYS TO REALIZE, ALL OF MY OTHER POSTS ARE NOW INVALID OF MY OPINIONS:)
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  #65  
Old 07-13-2007, 04:32 PM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

It all comes down to what works for you. Some folks like acc gtrs, some like electric, some like both. Saying that one or the other is the only way only limits your self. The drummer for Trivium has a custom made ddrum kit, (ACC), and every drum is triggered. Most every major metal band triggers at least the BD(s). A lot of major acts play acc's on stage but trigger the sounds. Most drummers that walk in to the gtr center sit down and play the ekits, but then get up and say how accs are better. Then why wank on an ekit for half an hour? Looks ? Do you know how silly that sounds." I won't play them because they're ugly." I have an amazing 1981 Tama superstar kit, and a Roland TD 20. I wont take my Tamas out of my studio due to size and hauling constraints. I can set my ekit up in about 15 mins and it sound great, IN EVERY ROOM I PLAY. My point, don't limit yourself.
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  #66  
Old 07-15-2007, 07:22 AM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

I've played around on an electric set at my local music shop, but it just doesn't feel like an acoustic set. Not enough of a connection between me and the instrument, I guess. It's just not the same.

Plus, the sound isn't flexible at all.
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  #67  
Old 07-15-2007, 08:17 AM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

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Originally Posted by ledzepjb View Post
They look ugly, sound quite ugly, dont like them, theyre ugly.

Iím not going to comment on the sound but they have no stage appeal at all. Ugly is correct. Nothing looks better than a nice kit with the lights flashing across the finish. No electronic kit will give you that.
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  #68  
Old 07-15-2007, 10:04 AM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

Maybe Iím in for a ĒbeatingĒ here, but what the heck..

Are drummers in general a conservative breed? Is all innovation bad?
The keyboard players out there very seldom haul around on a grand piano or a Hammond B3, the real thing does sound better, but they usually opt for more freedom of choice soundvise and easier logging of gear. Most of the time they are using their electronics just to emulate piano or organ. Guitarists use every gadget out there, all the time, they would run their signal thru a bucket of beer if it got them the sound they like

I know there are some issues related to using electronics, but I find it strange that so many of us are using statements like, itís not real drums, it looks bad, itís cheating and so on.
In my opinion there are many pros and cons regarding the use of electronics live or in studio.
BTW Iím talking about high end electronics like the TD-20
Pros:
Electronics can more easily be set up ergonomically due to a more shallow design.
Itís easier to get good PA sound from electronics than a miked set.
You have a range of sounds at your fingertips. If youíre in the cover business youíll be able to emulate the drum sound from the original recording, (If thatís what you want)
Easy access to a range of percussion sounds.
A little easier to log around and set up.
Cons:
It does not sound as good as a perfectly tuned high quality acoustic set.
Cymbal sounds are not quite good enough Ė yet.
You need a very good PA system to get good sound.
You need good monitoring
OK, itís not as good looking as my Pearl set.
Things break from time to time, if your module craps on you itís just pack up and go home.
Doesnít feel like acoustics, again specially the cymbals. The new breed of mesh heads is quite good.

I totally agree that a nice acoustic with sparkling finish is very appealing on the stage, but how often is this hidden behind guitarists and whatnot?

And by the end of the day, it should be about the audience experience should it not? If electronics heightens the experience for the listener, why not?

Sorry for the ranting!

/Oldie
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  #69  
Old 07-15-2007, 02:19 PM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

...I signed up for a weekend warrior program at a local music shop.

An electronic kit was provided for the practices, some kind of Roland, not sure of the number. They are kind of cool, but after using them for the six weeks, any desire that I may have had for them has disapeared.

If I was a working pro, and they could earn me money, I would have a boat load of them. However, seeing as I am a hobbyist, they have no appeal to me. To me, drums are more than things I hit to make noise, they are adult leggo, or tinker toys. A lot of the enjoyment that I get from my drums is in tweaking them, customizing the hardware, adding my own personall touches, and to some degree, working with wood. I am not as technologically adept as I would need to be to get that same enjoyment from an electronic kit, and I am too old, fat, and lazy to learn.

If I ever do go over to the dark side, I would probably look into triggers and a good module. That would be my compromise.

Barry
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Old 12-03-2007, 05:10 AM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

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Originally Posted by mattsmith View Post
Music sound issues aside, I think a big concern we're not talkin' about is the attitude of the bandleaders you plan to work with. If you're going your way exclusively, what are you going to do if you're contracted for a big show and the money man looks over at your kit and asks where are your real drums? Are you going to give him this pros and cons and stuff? If you do, you'll just be told to leave and they'll have another drummer on stage before you've finished your tear down. If this was me I think I'd still stay up on my acoustic while flirting with this.
just saw trans siberian orchestra, he uses e-kit!!!
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  #71  
Old 12-03-2007, 05:54 AM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

I couldnt really see someone playing an all electric set during a live show. Im not talking about Neil Peart's partial electronic setup (because thats totally awesome). But i guess whatever floats your boat we gotta respect.
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  #72  
Old 12-03-2007, 06:16 AM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

Electronic drums have been, and always will be, a novelty item in my opinion. The feel, the look, everything about them is completely void of the personality and feel that you can only get with a real drum kit. They definitely have their place. They're just not for me and never will be.
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  #73  
Old 12-03-2007, 06:20 AM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

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Originally Posted by ironcobra View Post
well today i went out and rented an electronic drumset, so that i could become more familiar with the control module, and i have to say, im never going back to acoustic

being able to switch to completly different sound kits with the push of a button, and having drums that sound professional, i cant see any other way. i dont know what it is that keeps people playing acoustic, but i suggest trying out an electric for more then an hour (if you havn't) , although i might buy another cymbal for my acoustic, the rest of my drumming will probably go to electric.

i know im going to get cyber bullied for this, but what can i say? i can't belive i didn't buy one of these before
Because no matter how hard you try E-"Drums" always sound plastic and fake. I hate them with a passion.
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Old 12-03-2007, 06:34 AM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

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Electronic drums have been, and always will be, a novelty item in my opinion. The feel, the look, everything about them is completely void of the personality and feel that you can only get with a real drum kit. They definitely have their place. They're just not for me and never will be.
Ya I think the guys I play acoustic jazz with may have some "issues" regarding their sound. I agree they have their place in the world but not for me and never will too.
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Old 12-03-2007, 06:52 AM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

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just saw trans siberian orchestra, he uses e-kit!!!
Great, and all those e-kit guys will have to do is wait 10-12 years for the next Manheim Steamroller wannabes to blow past them. In the meantime the acoustic drum guys can play the 1.6 million gigs in between.
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Old 12-03-2007, 07:18 AM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

........Oh, that slightly off- center smack on a 10" tom with new heads,
the stick softly caressing the rim to also produce an almost-not-there- click as well..

everything resonating a touch more than you had anticipated........

the 2 flavored bass drum heel-toe double, the first a DUH and the second, a DHUP!....

can this be replaced? I think not. can it be added to maybe, yes.

I would be curious as to what our good friend and resident Hybridologist, Harry Conway thinks ; )
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Old 12-03-2007, 09:26 AM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

My ears were burning. Someone said my name. Certainly, acoustics have their place and e-kits have theirs. Gonna jam with a jazz trio? Not a good idea to show up with an e-kit. But also, don't show up with a 10 piece double bass power tom monster kit either. Someone called e-kits a "novelty". Well, they are entitled to their opinion, sure, but my kit was born in 1985, so, much like rap/hip-hop music, this "novelty" seems to have some "longevity" to it. They just keep on refining old and inventing new. And with multi-billion dollar companies behind this technology, I think it's here to stay. Right now my drums "kinda" sound like tablas. Could I ever get my 26, 15, 16, 18 Luddies to sound like tablas? No. Right now, with all the volume adjusts I have, I'm jamming with my "Boom box" and getting a really nice balance. Something else I couldn't do with the Luddies. If I knew "then" what I know "now", I would have embraced the electronics 22 years ago. Now, I'm just an old drummer dog bein' taught new tricks. Oh, my new avitar, that's Lenny White sittin' behind my "new" kit, the 1985 Tama TS-305 Techstar.
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Old 12-03-2007, 09:48 AM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

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Now, I'm just an old drummer dog bein' taught new tricks. Oh, my new avitar, that's Lenny White sittin' behind my "new" kit, the 1985 Tama TS-305 Techstar.
I'd love to blend myself into my favorite tracks, that I'm sure I'm missing out on. Also, I'm being pushed into triggering some pads because of the limited harmonic content of our 3 piece guitar drum bass. Not sure how I feel about the added responsibility. Its a whole new world, I'm sure. I'm fighting it for now..

Lenny, yes, If you listen to the one monster fill in the closing chorus of Sorceress from RTF Romatic Warrior, that captures what Lenny is all about
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Old 12-03-2007, 10:54 AM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

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... triggering some pads because of the limited harmonic content of our 3 piece guitar drum bass....
One of the first cats I saw up close and personal doin' that was Mark Zonder, of Fates Warning, triggering all kinds of stuff when they did "A Pleasant Shade of Grey" at the Whiskey in Hollywood. Monster show, and we stood 10' from the front of the drum kit. Saw Terry Bozzio playin' an e-kit for Jeff Becks "Guitar Shop" tour. 1989. I don't think anyone felt "cheated" there. What really pulled me over into the "dark side" was when the guitarist left "our" guitar, bass, drum thang. What, just drum and bass now. And then there were two. So we both got loop stations and never even looked for a replacement guitarist. Re-invention at age 48.
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Old 12-03-2007, 11:11 AM
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Default Re: I'm FINISHED with acoustic drums

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Re-invention at age 48.
...and why not.
If you' ve-invented yourself, Harry, then your'e only 38, man ! : )

I wear your shoes at this moment. Our guitarist has left too. Well, physically hes still here, but..... you know what I mean.

He feels very inadequate without chords around him..- does'nt need to,- but we music-types are all so insecure, are'nt we : )

.. So the bass player's playing a 6 string , and I'm considering some pads as a consequence.

I don't particularly like the music Akira Jimbo plays, but the Idea of playing rhythm & harmony together as a drummer is intriguing.

Last edited by aydee; 12-04-2007 at 04:28 AM.
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