Advice for drummers

[Deathmetalconga]

This was hard to read in parts and it's pretty condescending (using analogies is a sure sign of bad argumentation) but there's a lot of wisdom here nevertheless. Read the original here: http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/colum...oundation.html


I present something to you that perhaps you’ve encountered thousands of times and never really noticed it. It happens to 98% of local bands and other sub-par bands alike, and sadly, I don’t think anyone has ever tried to address it head on. A good rock band can be ruined, destroyed, and become a proverbial train-wreck because of one simple and very crucial element in rock music.

The Drums

The song writing can be inspiring, the guitars huge and loud, and the vocals captivating. But suddenly, like war planes bombarding enemy territory, the drummer pulls out an aerial assault of a drum fill, taking any kind of musicality the other musicians have worked hard to create and blowing it to smithereens, leaving the poor refugee listener’s ear drums battered and bruised. We can pin the blame on many things, such as the drummers pride, his off-kilter musical sense, or even plain old fashioned ignorance.
Perhaps, as a song writer, as a guitarist, or even as a drummer, you have recently asked yourself “Something just doesn’t seem right with the way this sounds…”

Perhaps the answer might be found in the article below. Please note that this is an article built upon opinions that I find true and solid. But, please, feel free to leave me comments about how the solo guitar is the foundation of a rock band and Ibanez guitars thru line 6 amps are the only way to go. Your opinions are just as valuable as mine. I mean that…

Here are 3 problems that I see with most drummers and how you can try to fix them.

Lets start with what I think is how the drums should play with others. The drums, first and foremost, are the foundation of any rock band. The drums give us rhythm, the drums provide a back bone, and the drums give the song a driving force and can set the song apart. Let’s use the pyramid analogy once more. We have all seem pyramids in our history books. They start large at the bottom and end up small at the top. Common sense tells us that if it were built upside down, it would topple over and fall. Without that larger and sturdy foundation at the bottom, the whole thing comes toppling over. (Just an aside, this analogy can be used in everything from education to theology.) The drums need to be the larger, sturdier base of any rock band. Never too loud, never too flashy, and always there to support what the other instruments are there to do.


Problem number 1: the drums are too busy and overactive like an ADHD 6 year old boy and have no sense of direction.

Solution: Keep it simple. Bring the rhythm to the down beat, and compliment the song. Think of it this way. You see a beautiful woman walking down the street, and you think to yourself “Wow, I would like to get her number, take her out, and maybe get a little lip action…” Then as she walks closer, you notice that her face is horribly flashy. She has bright red lipstick on, overdone blush, eye shadow that goes all over her face, and a terrible color of eyeliner. Your first thought, if you are anything like me is “wow, what a whore”. Just as makeup compliments a woman, the drums should compliment a song. The same could be said for lead patterns and solo guitars, but that’s neither here nor there.

Drummers that excel in this: JJ Johnson (John Mayer) Jon Bucklew (Copeland). If you are anything like me, you do the following at all rock shows. I walk up to the front of the stage, and depending on whether the band is setting up or already has their gear on stage, I check out the gear. I see what kind of guitars they play, what amps the use to drive them, and what kind of pedals or effects the may use. It is here that I make all sorts of inappropriate, hypocritical and very mean statements in my head, or a close friend, if they are standing next to me. These statements may include “Why would you waste so much money on that solid-state piece of crap?” or “For that money, you could have “x” guitar and still have enough money to buy some decent effects”.

Then, being a drummer with nearly 15 years of experience under my belt, I notice the drum kit. As I said earlier, 98% of the time, local bands and sub-par bands have this kit. A 7 piece pearl export series with z custom cymbals and a double kick pedal. All on a large, shiny drum rack. I almost want to turn away from the show at that point. Why? Because while there may be 20,000 kits out there assembled that way, there are only 5,000 drummers who, in my opinion, who can give that kit justice. It is my burning and driving opinion that if you reduce the kit, you will make the drummer more solid.


Problem number 2: the kit is too big.

Solution: If all drummers could have a tattoo, I would want it to be KISS…not because of the ground breaking rock band, but because it stands for “keep it simple, stupid”. Lets be honest, you aren’t going to really use toms 3-8, and if you did, it probably wouldn’t fit in the song at all. You really only need a crash, a ride, and some hats. A splash is acceptable, but anything more than that is fluff. A pet peeve of mine is the china crash. It’s excellent for a quick cut through in metal, but most drummers I know use it as a ride. I want to rip my ears out at this point.

Drummers who excel in this: Matthew Puttman (lovedrug, Living sacrifice) Weston (eisley) Most jazz drummers. Let’s face it, half of the rock drummers out there only dream that they could play jazz. Jazz music=smaller kit. Rock music=huge kit. Surely you can make the connection there…

I have met many drummers in this great land of ours, and if there was one thing in common that they all have (yes, myself included) is that we are all puffed up with pride. Something about getting behind some wood, metal, and plastic and beating it all to death makes us feel so big, so masculine, and so God-like. I’ve been there too, but what we have to realize is that we are not there to have the spotlights on us. If you have this mindset, please do your guitarist a favor and find another band to play in. I'm sure that most drummers who read this are actually pretty good. There are a lot of great players out there. However, the problem comes when the drummer thinks “I should show off some of my skills in this part of the song. That’s different!” I worked at an office for a brief period of time, and one day I noticed that every day I went in to work, the office was always very clean. The trash had been taken out, the windows had been cleaned, and somehow, there was always the lingering scent of lemon. Every evening, when the employees had left, the janitor came in, when no one was there to see, and would clean up behind the mess we had just made.

Drummers, consider yourselves the janitors of the rock world, going behind the over inflated solo guitarists, the artsy and quiet rhythm guitarists, the eccentric bassists and bleeding heart vocalists and cleaning up whatever mess they bring to the stage. It is your job to clean it, polish it, and make it presentable. Its not a glorious job, so be prepared before you get into it.


Problem number 3: Your head is too big.

Solution: Change your mindset. You aren’t the focus of the band. Who in their right mind (besides other drummers who, arguably, aren’t in their right mind) would want to sit and listen to nothing but drums drums drums? Take the time to realize that you are the solid foundation to any rock band, and though without you, everything falls apart, you still need to have the humility about you to make sure that you do indeed make some good music together.

Drummers that excel in this: Pat Wilson (weezer) Fergal Lawler (The cranberries) and Local Drummers Eric Meeks and Josh Ayres. Some of the best drummers a guitarist could ask to play with.


Random Rants about drummers: Use fills tastefully, please don’t put them at the end of every phrase, or the end of every 4 phrases. Use them when the song calls for it. Your cymbals are made of precious melodic metals. They are not your girlfriend, so don’t bang them whenever you feel like it. Make sure the moment is right. Double kick pedals should really only be used in metal or hardcore. I'm tired of hearing lousy drummers buy double kicks and then put a quick flam at the beginning of every phrase. That sounds really terrible. Please stop. Put your sleeves back on. Sleeveless drummers bother me a little. It goes back to the ego thing. Your muscles don’t look bigger, so go ahead and stop the façade. Please tune your drums carefully. This is all up to your taste, but put some serious thought into it. This makes or breaks your drumming.

I do appreciate your time in reading this article. I hope that you and your band can use it. I have one goal in this whole article writing business…to make music better. I think I have some pretty good ideas that though aren’t original to me, they could be said by me. Remember that drums can make or break the band. Don’t be scared to tell your drummer to take a chill pill, and drummers, don’t get upset if someone tells you to be quiet. Remember what I told you about people in their right mind not wanting to listen to drums all day long? It’s a burden we bare; it’s just that others bear it better than some.
Drummers, you are the foundation, you are the solid rock, and you are the janitors. It’s not a flashy job, but without you and your excellence, rock music would not be where it is today. Keep up the good work.

-Mikey Harper

[nebula821]

I couldn't disagree with this guy more! It was indeed very condescending. I hate to sound negative but....whatever.

[brittc89]

This is purely a meager attmpt satire and does not reflect any actual views of mine, well maybe sometimes, but I dont wanna offend anyone... I love guitar players! Really! Sometimes, but someone cannot love everyone all the time. I found a lot of stuff in that article to be true of some drummers, but maybe we can all agree that at some parts it was a little cutting...


One of the main issues in music today is the pretentious rantings of people who feel that they may dictate to everyone how to play their instrument (by the way, they play drums too so they definitely do know what they are talking about, the problems with the modern foundations of their instrument, and simultaneously provide answers to all the problems of god-awful music through one simple voicing...

The Electric Guitar
The song is powering down a bone crushing chorus, the bass is rumbling, the drums are charging and suddenly the lead guitar player comes in and does what he does best... bitches. He doesnt feel like thats the direction he wants his music to go in, his effects pedal is out of batteries, hes broken a string, the drums are too loud, the bass player is too ugly, and, dammitt, its just too hot for him on stage. We can pin the blame on only one person and he is definitely not too loud or ugly. Have you ever asked youself, why do we sound like something that climbed out my aunt beatrice's goiter and formed a rock band and what can we do to get people to take their fingers out from deep within their own ears but also take out the large forks they had inserted into their own eyeballs rather than endure our music? The simple answer may be well within this article.

Problem One: The guitar player has no sense of time and keeps on starting his guitar intros off twice as fast as you have ever played the song in rehearsal and then slowing them down as if a little boy with ADHD who then is hit by a really really big train...

Solution: Obtain a cattle prod and keep the rhythm by giving a good jab on all four counts before the song starts. If this doesnt work, tell him his sister looks like a prostitute, I dont really think that would really help anything, but its worth a shot.

Problem two: The guitar player seems to think you are a janitor.

Solution: This is an easy one, tell him that if you really are the janitor in this band, maybe you arent the best person to be in it. He would probably be better off with a cowhand on a ranch, possibly even the same guy you borrowed the prod from, or something like that to help him clear away all the bull@$#% that seems to be dribbling out of his mouth. Watch it... ya missed a spot, right under the chin... there ya go.

Problem three: No one likes to sit behind the guitar player at the movie theater because, gosh darnit, they just can seem to get away from that gargatuan mellon that seems to rest so high upon his cute lil' shoulders.

Solution: Unless you are making a good amount of money, get outta this band, relationship, whatever it is! You dont have to play with this guy and youd probably be better off without him in your band... Or you could just also give him a quick pop in the head with a mildly sharp pin and hope that helps to slow the swelling of his ego, but then again, who knows, Im just silly janitor who missed his daily dosage of "chill pills" today.


Once again, this is all just in good fun...

[khanedeliac]

Good link DMC, thanks for the article.

Definitely some wisdom being passed on here, but it IS stuff most of us will have heard or been told before.
I think the willingness to listen to the man's opinion is somewhat undermined by the fact that he does use a condescending tone reminiscent of someone telling a 11 year old schoolboy "You are doing good, you just need to focus more, OK Champ?".

Yes, it is important for us to support the music, to act as the band's engine, driving force or whatever other motoring analogy you wish to use; BUT what about self-expression?

Why should the drummer be restricted to simply keeping time? I agree there are a number of drummers in local/unknown bands who overplay, but I have also seen a staggering amount who UNDERplay.
I would not want to be part of a band where my expression was repressed. I know that Im not just gonna be able to bust out a blur of fills all the time, but I refuse to just sit there and play 2 & 4 for a whole set. (Yes, some songs call for just a 2 & 4 with little/no fills or embellishments; but I would find playing a whole gig like that rather bland)
As with so many things in life, we have to find the fine line and walk it with care; only using fills when it adds to the music and knowing how to manipulate the rhythm of a song/piece/freak out.
Im sure most of us have noticed that lead guitarists dont (generally) apply this much discipline to their playing. Why should they not have to worry about how they are serving the song? I say if you are a drummer who likes to embellish more than the "average" (whatever that is) drummer, then you find a band that wants that from their drummer, or you start a band that will accomodate that style of playing.

His jazz drumming point is rather opaque, seeing as in Jazz, supporting the music often means 'playing-out', which is the whole point he is rallying against. Smaller kit doesnt necessarliy mean 'smaller' playing.

Conclusion : We should not be limited to being human metronomes (unless you are playing country or bluegrass), BUT we should also not be a smorgasbord of tom rolls and bass triplets (unless your band relies on you playing that way).
Self-expression on the drums doesnt HAVE to mean playing out more, sometimes its just the way you articulate yourself, with that open hi hat on the "&" of 4 and junk.

I think he's right, though he did use lots of overstatements. Actually, the entire article was an overstatement... but it helps get the message across.
I do agree that a drum kit should be more than a $3500 metronome, and the drummer should be more than a time keeper. But I'm sure the author of the article agrees with that just as well. A drummer must serve the music, I couldn't agree more, but that does not mean doing nothing but keeping a rhythm. Anyone in his right mind knows that.

[jazzin']

Agree with you there Philly. Although a lot of drummers would be offended by reading this, and rightfully so with that tone of his, but every point he made is one I have seen performed way too much. Well, obviously some points were a bit over the top but I think overall it was a good article (if written in the wrong way) that if it could be read with an open mind and the points taken into consideration could be very useful. Then again, every drummer should already know all this stuff. But, I guess that's his point. Although every drummer probably does know this stuff, not every drummer practices this stuff. Even though they no doubt preach it.

So while it may have been written with a lot more taste I still think it should be taken into consideration, for while most drummers know this stuff there are still far too many that just don't seem to listen and feel the need to smash away and add to the ruin that may have been a good song. Certainly not always the drummers fault though as this guy seems to imply. More often than not the guitarist is as much to blame as anyone else in the band.

This reminds me how often I hear a drummer say he is influenced by Steve Gadd the most. Then you see him play down at the local and he is the exact opposite, hammering away every four bars with a monstrous fill and crashing mightily away on all his cymbals.

Although I also agree with you 100% there as well Brittc89!

Note: please don't take this as a post though that I agree with the fact that a drummer should be doing nothing but playing straight time with no fills or colour in his playing. But, it just seems that too many drummers simply don't know when to stop or what colour and taste is when playing. That's all.

I must admit I laughed a lot at the 7 piece pearl export kit statement. It's so true.

[jonescrusher]

And this was written by a guitarist? Ironic at best, offensive at worst. In my experience guitarists are by far the most difficult members of a band, pretty much for all the reasons listed below. Very lol.

[kung_f00]

This is why I hate working with guitarists.

[c-ditty]

useless article. nuff said

[joeysnare]

there were some decent points in there,but it still has that annoying tone to it,like the guitarest is trying to calm down a rambunctious child.forgive my spelling.

[Mr. Pasquini]

I say play to support the music. I think that in some music it's very important to do lots of fill work and doubles. Don't over play but even more important don't underplay. Nobody will be interested in your playing if you do a 4 on the floor rock beat your whole life. Though it's not important to be the center of attention, it's still important to make your music individual, and enjoyable.

Just don't be an idiot. Every member of a band is equally important, have no illusions.

[NUTHA JASON]

there are a lot of truths there.

i'm playing battle of the bands again this year and also from past years of BOB i can say that i know what this is all about. when the bands are setting up and sound checking i can usually tell if my band is going to win or have to work extra hard to secure the through. the first clue comes from the other drumme's kit and how they set up. this week's round the one dude showed up with factory heads. the next clue is from the guitarist ... does he plug in and start trying out various effects and tuning at top volume? how long does it take him to tune? same with the bass. meanwhile what is the drummer doing? is he practicing fills or chops (ones that he has been working on but is not ready to use yet).

its the guys that set up quietly and quickly, tune digitally in a heartbeat, count off and play 30 seconds of a song and then clear off the stage ... these are the guys you have to start worrying about in the competition.

j

[drumminjohn]

Originally Posted by khanedeliac

Good link DMC, thanks for the article.

Definitely some wisdom being passed on here, but it IS stuff most of us will have heard or been told before.
I think the willingness to listen to the man's opinion is somewhat undermined by the fact that he does use a condescending tone reminiscent of someone telling a 11 year old schoolboy "You are doing good, you just need to focus more, OK Champ?".

Yes, it is important for us to support the music, to act as the band's engine, driving force or whatever other motoring analogy you wish to use; BUT what about self-expression?

Why should the drummer be restricted to simply keeping time? I agree there are a number of drummers in local/unknown bands who overplay, but I have also seen a staggering amount who UNDERplay.
I would not want to be part of a band where my expression was repressed. I know that Im not just gonna be able to bust out a blur of fills all the time, but I refuse to just sit there and play 2 & 4 for a whole set. (Yes, some songs call for just a 2 & 4 with little/no fills or embellishments; but I would find playing a whole gig like that rather bland)
As with so many things in life, we have to find the fine line and walk it with care; only using fills when it adds to the music and knowing how to manipulate the rhythm of a song/piece/freak out.
Im sure most of us have noticed that lead guitarists dont (generally) apply this much discipline to their playing. Why should they not have to worry about how they are serving the song? I say if you are a drummer who likes to embellish more than the "average" (whatever that is) drummer, then you find a band that wants that from their drummer, or you start a band that will accomodate that style of playing.

His jazz drumming point is rather opaque, seeing as in Jazz, supporting the music often means 'playing-out', which is the whole point he is rallying against. Smaller kit doesnt necessarliy mean 'smaller' playing.

Conclusion : We should not be limited to being human metronomes (unless you are playing country or bluegrass), BUT we should also not be a smorgasbord of tom rolls and bass triplets (unless your band relies on you playing that way).
Self-expression on the drums doesnt HAVE to mean playing out more, sometimes its just the way you articulate yourself, with that open hi hat on the "&" of 4 and junk.

I 100% agree with all of this.

Straight beats get annoying in a song... Imagine some of your favorite songs without some of the cool fills in them... One that comes to mind immediately is Zepp's "Misty Mountain Hop".. Now imagine that song as if Bonham was just grooving. Fun groove, yes, but I personally have to hear that dynamic roll at the end, it makes the song..

I just use my judgment when approaching a drum part for a new song.. I know my judgment might not always be best or what makes the song, but thats when a band member will step in and say, "Can you calm it down a bit in that last part?" or "Can you liven it up in the intro to the solo?" or something like that.

I think if you and your band like the sound of the song, and that was the direction you wanted to take the song, then power to you, you have done your job.

[ledzepjb]

Wow, Nutha, i couldnt agree more with you. I was rencently in a competition, the guys i was against set everything up in a flash, played the intro and the chorus of the song, unplugged and left. While that was happening, my guitarist was trying to do some awful highpiched ''solo''(more of high piched noise) and it sounded like cr@p. We almost one, but the ''solo'' ruined it....

So in conclusion to my little story, i feel that guitarist should also know when and how to hold back.

[Deathmetalconga]

This article supports my belief that most musicians like the concept of a drummer more than the reality of a drummer. As I've said before, most musicians would be happy if the drummer just played with a bass, snare, hihat and ride.

The author of the article says he was a drummer for 15 years. I think he played in bands where the drummer was viewed as a simpleton. If you look at the most successful popular music over time, in most cases, the drummer (and every other musician) played very simply. So there is some truth to what the author is saying.

But there are many popular bands where the drummer has as much creative license and respect as any other musician. These bands appeal mainly to other musicians, or people with more refined tastes. In such a band, the simpleton drummer (and his bandmates) would be outclassed and viewed as barely competent musicians. They know this and they're insecure about it.

[kung_f00]

Originally Posted by ledzepjb

i feel that guitarist should also know when and how to hold back.

Holding back is not in a guitarist's vocabulary.

I know I've already posted my two cents on this article.. but the more I think about it, the more upset I get with it. The hypocrisy of the article blows my mind -- despite the claim that this writer makes: "Just as makeup compliments a woman, the drums should compliment a song. The same could be said for lead patterns and solo guitars, but that’s neither here nor there", he brushes off the claim that the same could be said for the guitarists by saying that it's 'neither here nor there'. However, one of the main problems within a band, as ledzepjb brought up, is that the guitarist is so ready to tell the drummer to ease up and keep it simple, but the guitarist insists that they have some sort of "mindblowing solo". In most cases, these mindblowing solos are ridden with mistakes and often detract from the song.

The writer of this article also contends: "Solution: Change your mindset. You aren’t the focus of the band. Who in their right mind (besides other drummers who, arguably, aren’t in their right mind) would want to sit and listen to nothing but drums drums drums? Take the time to realize that you are the solid foundation to any rock band, and though without you, everything falls apart, you still need to have the humility about you to make sure that you do indeed make some good music together." Of course, this is chock-full of even more hypocrisy, as guitarists have no right to be discussing issues of humility. And there should be no focal member in a good band. A good band works cohesively, as a musical unit rather than a rhythm section that syncs with eachother underlying a cocky guitarist who wants to be the next Axl Rose. And while this author believes that in his close-minded mindset that no one wants to listen to just drums alone (drum corps/line comes to mind in this instance), not every person in the audience is there to hear the guitarist 'shred'. Again, the band should be balanced. And in most cases, the imbalance is because of the guitarist, not because of the drummer. After all, the drummer is supposed to work with the bassist to provide a solid rhythm.

I'll leave my rant at this, because I've just about had it with this guy's First Amendment rights. Simply put, if you want the drummer to keep it simple, hold yourself to your own standards, and keep to power chords. Nobody wants to hear arrhythmic, effects-ridden wailing for minutes on end.

Thanks for posting that. It shows the ignorance that can plague musicians of every instrument, not just guitarists.

Yes, the drums can be the blame in a band not being on top of its game as much as it could be. In fact because WE'RE the rhythm, the timekepper, the foundation, we CAN sink a band faster than an Iceberg hitting the Titanic. But, any member of the band can be a blame: A singer who can't sing on key, or who would rather show off and be the center of attention instead part of the band. A guitarist who suffers from the same problems as the singer in regards to attention, but also may have the problem of insisting on being the loudest member of the band, and lets not forget untasteful guitar solos. The bass player, who holds down the bottom as much as the drummer could have horrible sense of time etc..

I think this article should have been more on educating the guitarist on what their role in the band is and should be, even if the majority of them reading it think that they're doing their job just fine. It could have possibly involved EVERY member of the band, stating some common problems with each instrument and how to resolve them. But instead it chose to be a blame piece.

[Disco Stu]

Who in their right mind (besides other drummers who, arguably, aren’t in their right mind) would want to sit and listen to nothing but drums drums drums?

This guy's obviously never been to a Kodo concert. They regularly tour all over the world and I'm sure have entertained far more audiences than the author of this opinion piece.

[zambizzi]

This sort of fits w/ the thread I started recently called "The Drummer's Place In the Band"...

Like any music, genre, style, instrument, etc. - it's a matter of taste. Some of my favorite bands have drummers who are often called "over-players"....and some of my other favorites are *definite* under-players. I listen to DMB, Tool, Rush...but I also listen to bands like Weezer, The White Stripes, etc. Yes, even as a drummer, I can appreciate Meg White...even if I don't think she's a great drummer :)

The point is; your band can sound incredible if you over-play...and it can sound incredible if you under-play...because it's a matter of playing for the music and doing something that fits. A thunderous 8-tom fill sounds great in a Rush tune...but it wouldn't sound right in a White Stripes tune...for example.

Personally...I like to do both. When I practice w/ my band I like to attempt several different styles. Sometimes I'll play a straight shuffle w/ some simple fills here-and-there....sometimes I'll use the whole kit...if it fits.

I think some musicians are overly sensitive to what their band-mates are doing. There seems to be a paradigm amongst a lot of non-drummer musicians that the drummer is a machine...and should be seen and not heard. The audience is probably not as sensitive to this and appreciate some creativity.

In my personal opinion...the backbeat+guitar riff+simple vocal has been so insanely overdone in popular music....it's refreshing to hear bands who do something different...especially in rock music.

[Thin Spirits]

From article: "Drummers, consider yourselves the janitors of the rock world"

I hate the author.

From article: "Put your sleeves back on. Sleeveless drummers bother me a little. It goes back to the ego thing. Your muscles don’t look bigger, so go ahead and stop the façade."

Isn't this article about MUSIC? What the drummer looks like or is wearing doesn't matter at all.
Also, withour sleeves, your muscles DO look bigger. Sleeves hide away your arms, and if you have big, strong arms, why would you hide them away?


Nearly everything that was said in this article made me angry. It's extremely sad that guitarists think this way about drummers.

[caprisun3484]

Originally Posted by jonescrusher

And this was written by a guitarist? Ironic at best, offensive at worst. In my experience guitarists are by far the most difficult members of a band, pretty much for all the reasons listed below. Very lol.

ooooohhh the irony
hahaha

[Fur drummer]

The author of the article wouldn't like these great drummers...

Neil Peart- Plays a large kit and does as many fills as he can.Would be considered someone who overplays by the writer of that article.
Carl Palmer- another large kit player.
Keith Moon- Played a large kit and treated every song like it was a drum solo.
Mike Portnoy- Plays a huge kit and would be considered someone who overplays.
Billy Cobham- Jazz/fusion drummer that plays a huge kit.

Just to name a few.

[drumminjohn]

Originally Posted by Fur drummer

The author of the article wouldn't like these great drummers...

Neil Peart- Plays a large kit and does as many fills as he can.Would be considered someone who overplays by the writer of that article.
Carl Palmer- another large kit player.
Keith Moon- Played a large kit and treated every song like it was a drum solo.
Mike Portnoy- Plays a huge kit and would be considered someone who overplays.
Billy Cobham- Jazz/fusion drummer that plays a huge kit.

Just to name a few.

Hahah yeah the author would despise Keith Moon..

[fijjibo]

Well, Im sure the Authors Intentions are good, but what hes saying comes off very arrogant.

Mind you, there is some truth in what he says.

[Deathmetalconga]

Originally Posted by fijjibo

Well, Im sure the Authors Intentions are good, but what hes saying comes off very arrogant.

Mind you, there is some truth in what he says.

I do agree. His tone is arrogant and condescending, but the basic truth is that other musicians want drummers to play more simply and plainly. For the most part, that is true. Of course, I would also like the other musicians I play with, to play more plainly. It would be cool for a drummer to turn that column on its head.

[zambizzi]

Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga

I do agree. His tone is arrogant and condescending, but the basic truth is that other musicians want drummers to play more simply and plainly. For the most part, that is true. Of course, I would also like the other musicians I play with, to play more plainly. It would be cool for a drummer to turn that column on its head.

Not all of them...I haven't met a guitar player yet who has complained about what I do. However, I've now met two bass players who want the drums to be as stupid-simple as can be...including the guy I'm playing w/ currently.

I don't want other musicians to dumb down what they're playing either...if it's complex and rhythmically challenging...great!....just so long as it fits and sounds good.

[Jeff Almeyda]

He thinks 5,000 out of 20,000 drummers with large kits would do well?

I have to say that 25% (5,000 out of 20,000) isn't a bad number. Personally, I find I like much less than 25% of the unsigned bands/musicians that I see.

[MissWorld1952]

Anyone read the comments posted on the bottom of the original article at ultimateguitar.com?

[Legacyrik]

Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga

If you look at the most successful popular music over time, in most cases, the drummer (and every other musician) played very simply. So there is some truth to what the author is saying.

Yes, some POPULAR bands played some real simple stuff..... If popular is what you are after have at it. However the bands people seem to remember, draw inspiration from, don't seem to be as concerned with popularity.

[neilpscuz]

"There is no lick that is more important then the groove". I am not sure who said it it,but it rings so true. Music is a very personal undertaking, it conveys our emotions, our inner-self. If you can convey them on a 3pc and 2 cyms great. Terry Bozzio has a lot more to say using many different timbres of speech. It's all very personal and there is alot of truth in all the opinions expressed. You have to find what is right for you and the group you play with. There is no right and wrong set rule, there is only what you do with it, IMHOP.

[drumminjohn]

Originally Posted by MissWorld1952

Anyone read the comments posted on the bottom of the original article at ultimateguitar.com?

Yeah some of those made me as mad as the article did..

Originally Posted by Legacyrik

Yes, some POPULAR bands played some real simple stuff..... If popular is what you are after have at it. However the bands people seem to remember, draw inspiration from, don't seem to be as concerned with popularity.

The Beatles.
The Rolling Stones.
Led Zeppelin
Pink Floyd
The Doors
Nirvana
And yes... even Radiohead.

Simple music. Popular music. Good music.

[Deathmetalconga]

Originally Posted by Mediocrefunkybeat

The Beatles.
The Rolling Stones.
Led Zeppelin
Pink Floyd
The Doors
Nirvana
And yes... even Radiohead.

Simple music. Popular music. Good music.

I agree. Like it or not, the music that has endured the longest among the most people and remains best-selling - regardless of genre - is the simplest music. Of those bands you list above, only Bonham played in an extraordinarly creative and technically difficult way. The rest of the bands, drummers and other musicians, played basic music. The songwriting is what has given the songs endurance. Only in a few notable cases does complex, techinically difficult music capture the attention of so much of the public over decades, long after its creators have passed.

Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga

Only in a few notable cases does complex, techinically difficult music capture the attention of so much of the public over decades, long after its creators have passed.

Like Rush for instance...

[Deathmetalconga]

Originally Posted by fourstringdrums

Like Rush for instance...

It wouldn't surprise me if one of the Beatles less-popular albums sold more than all of Rush's and Dream Theater's put together. There will always be a huge market for more technically demanding music. But if you're talking about the music that captures and holds the popular consciousness for decades, so far it's the simple stuff.

Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga

I agree. Like it or not, the music that has endured the longest among the most people and remains best-selling - regardless of genre - is the simplest music. Of those bands you list above, only Bonham played in an extraordinarly creative and technically difficult way. The rest of the bands, drummers and other musicians, played basic music. The songwriting is what has given the songs endurance. Only in a few notable cases does complex, techinically difficult music capture the attention of so much of the public over decades, long after its creators have passed.

I'm usually of the opinion (with a few notable exceptions, King Crimson!) that the best songs can be stripped back to just an acoustic guitar and a singer and still work. Take any one of these artists, take almost any song and you'll find this to be true. A great example is Radiohead's Idioteque. I play it on just an acoustic guitar and vocals and it sounds great (obviously, I don't sing it or play it well, but it sounds great when other people do!). That song is electronica. Yet it still works acoustically.

Pink Floyd's entire back catalogue up until A Momentary Lapse all sounds great on acoustic guitar, even songs like 'Interstellar Overdrive' right up until 'Southampton Docks' and 'Dogs'. The same is true of all the bands I just listed. The songs don't even need drums! Half the art of a drummer is knowing when NOT to play just as much as actually when you play.

[zambizzi]

Sure...let's apply that logic elsewhere. You can strip a symphony orchestra down to the cellist and you'll still recognize what piece is being played.

Does it sound *as* good w/ all of the layers stripped away?

Not everyone wants to express their art in the most simple way...record sale comparisons aside. I'd be happy to have Neil Peart's success, skills, and worldwide recognition as a legendary drummer. I wouldn't sit back and think "yeah...but man...The Beatles sold MORE albums than we did!"

[jazzin']

Originally Posted by Mediocrefunkybeat

I'm usually of the opinion (with a few notable exceptions, King Crimson!) that the best songs can be stripped back to just an acoustic guitar and a singer and still work. Take any one of these artists, take almost any song and you'll find this to be true. A great example is Radiohead's Idioteque. I play it on just an acoustic guitar and vocals and it sounds great (obviously, I don't sing it or play it well, but it sounds great when other people do!). That song is electronica. Yet it still works acoustically.

Pink Floyd's entire back catalogue up until A Momentary Lapse all sounds great on acoustic guitar, even songs like 'Interstellar Overdrive' right up until 'Southampton Docks' and 'Dogs'. The same is true of all the bands I just listed. The songs don't even need drums! Half the art of a drummer is knowing when NOT to play just as much as actually when you play.

Indeed. All popular music (with a few exceptions) is very simple music. The melody is what captures people's attention and what keeps it. Of course drummer's are going to like fills and think they make a part of a song great. It's a cool fill, of course it makes that part good. Most listeners aren't drummers though and they really don't care if drums are there or not. If it provides a good backbeat and makes the song groove then the drummer has done his/her job very well, fills or no fills.

Using the orchestra analogy doesn't really work I think. An orchestra is made up of many, many small parts all played to create a whole. It is also much more intricate in terms of dynamics, texture, tone etc etc. It is also, like other more 'complex' music, not nearly as popular as mainstream music. If it did have a drummer in it anyway, it would be an exact written part which cannot be diverted from, probably just keeping simple time in parts to add dramatic effect, which is what a lot of guys that don't like the guitarists article don't approve of. Orchestral music is not creative music in terms of the players. It was very creative from the writers point but generally cannot be changed.

[rendezvous_drummer]

Some truths in there indeed, but some of the stuff he stated is just.....dumb.

Oh...and Radiohead is amazing...Idioteque=genious.

[Mr. Pasquini]

Originally Posted by Mediocrefunkybeat

I'm usually of the opinion (with a few notable exceptions, King Crimson!) that the best songs can be stripped back to just an acoustic guitar and a singer and still work. Take any one of these artists, take almost any song and you'll find this to be true. A great example is Radiohead's Idioteque. I play it on just an acoustic guitar and vocals and it sounds great (obviously, I don't sing it or play it well, but it sounds great when other people do!). That song is electronica. Yet it still works acoustically.

Pink Floyd's entire back catalogue up until A Momentary Lapse all sounds great on acoustic guitar, even songs like 'Interstellar Overdrive' right up until 'Southampton Docks' and 'Dogs'. The same is true of all the bands I just listed. The songs don't even need drums! Half the art of a drummer is knowing when NOT to play just as much as actually when you play.

I hate to argue with you because I know I'll be torn apart BUT...
So much of music are the overplayed parts. Sure something may sound good or alright but what makes a lot of music are technical parts, rough parts, drums blasting, bass working, guitar smacking action.

Popular music is not all music. It's what a lot of people like but it's not all music, I wish people would quit using Beatles analogies. Ringo barely played, big whoop. It worked for his music. It's only by coincidence and the dollars of millions of girls who soak themselves in love songs that he became successful.

It almost sounds like you're saying that technical music is less than popular music because it doesn't sell as well. I'm sure you don't mean it but I think it's really important to express yourself, even if it is considered "over playing".

I'll make more sense of this later, Seattle is killing me.