singing drummer, mic woes...

[nate]

hiya...

need a little help, i play drums and sing. i hit the drums kinda hardish (not something i'm proud of, just fact) and sometimes i sing quite quiet, and also quite loud I've been working with some good sound people over the last few weeks, and they've all said the same thing, when i sing soft, they can't pick up my vocals, without getting loads (to much) of the drums. I try and sind as close to the mic as possible.

i played a show a little while back and the guy gave me a mic that looked like this i'm not 100% is was this but it looked like it, it seemed to work quite well...

anyone had this problem, how they get around it....anyone use this mic?

BTW i will wont use a headset, IMHO i think they make you look like you work in a call centre....and you get loads of breathing issues....no headsets...

if anyone has any ideas/help that would be great, as it annoying people can't hear the softer stuff.....


thanks

[gmrakich]

You should make sure the mic you use it unidirectional. It only picks up what comes into it from directly in front of it. Mics that are omnidirectional pick up everything from all angles. This should take care of it.

[k3ng]

yeah a unidirectional mic and a jeff indyke style mic stand so it won't get in the way of your hands.

I sing and play too and unidirectionals solve the problem. point at ur mouth and the drums are almost unheard.

[nate]

cheers...anyone got any actual mic suggestions, ones that are tried and tested...


c'mon, c'mon, i know you guys have the info......you guys are smart...

[JIM_fear]

Well, the mic that you have in the link is a drum mic and not even a high quality one. That's not intended for vocal use and it doesn't have an internal pop filter.

An SM58 would serve you a great deal better than a PG56 and is pretty cheap. They are great for live vocals. Personally, I prefer the Beta 58A for live vocals. It will cost you a bit more than the SM58 but it's definitely worth it. Hope this helps.

[nate]

Originally Posted by JIM_fear

Well, the mic that you have in the link is a drum mic and not even a high quality one. That's not intended for vocal use and it doesn't have an internal pop filter.

An SM58 would serve you a great deal better than a PG56 and is pretty cheap. They are great for live vocals. Personally, I prefer the Beta 58A for live vocals. It will cost you a bit more than the SM58 but it's definitely worth it. Hope this helps.

thanks for the info, i've used a SM58 at most gigs, and the sounguys still find it pretty hard to get my softer vocals, without getting the drums to much (they're v.good sound guys too, 1 does black sabbath, so it's not them). i mic i used looked a lot like that drum mic link i sent, but not that actual mic...

[bighaibigdrums]

Go for a Shure WH30 headset mic. It will cost you a couple of bucks but it will solve all your problems

[nate]

thanks, but no thanks, i dont work in a call center, and i dont want people to hear my panting..


c'mon guys...

[rendezvous_drummer]

You could use a Shure SM57. Some other mics you could use are:

Shure Beta 58
Sennheiser E945

These ones are very good as well. I think the SM57 and SM58's are pretty much the same mic though, only a different capsule. Could be wrong. But i'm totally with you on the no headset thing. Not only would it pick the breathing and all, but you would look like a major tool.

Originally Posted by nate

thanks, but no thanks, i dont work in a call center, and i dont want people to hear my panting..


c'mon guys...

If you are worried about your looks then you aren't too serious about getting your vocals heard properly.

[bighaibigdrums]

Originally Posted by PureRockFury

If you are worried about your looks then you aren't too serious about getting your vocals heard properly.

Couldnt have said it better.

[nate]

Originally Posted by PureRockFury

If you are worried about your looks then you aren't too serious about getting your vocals heard properly.

Originally Posted by bighaibigdrums

Couldnt have said it better.

erm..

i think this is a little unfair.

i've heard drummers use these sets in questions, and you can sometimes hear a lot of breathing. i don't want to hear my breathe over songs. i sing entire songs, not just little bits and want to do as best as possible.

quite the opposite, in fact, the larger mics that use normal stands have a much better range and response than these....

..also as i stated there is a massive dymanic range if my vocals, so i need to be close to mic for quiet vox, back of for the loud ones. how would i achieve this with a head set?


I also think these comments are a little unfair, how many of you would play a pink fluffy kit with orange strips and green neon flashing lights....before some of you answer 'yeah if it sounds great' whatever i think you get my piont...and so what if i don't like the look of these head sets? huh?


trust me, i work very hard for my music, and this post was intended as research for me to improve it further, please dont post comments suggesting i am shallow.

[drumtechdad]

Well, clearly, the answer is to be like Mike Portnoy and have a roadie stick a gooseneck mounted mic in front of you at just the right moments. ;-)

My son is a singing drummer--same issues. The solution was a headset mic. They can be had in very high quality, save up for a good one.

Regarding the breathing issue: breathe through your nose. How do you think so many big artists get around the problem, even ones who dance and sing at the same time?

As for dynamics--sing softer in the soft bits. You've already discovered that you can't back off the mic as if you were standing up front, so you have to change your technique anyway.

As for looks--only you can decide which is more important to you, the music or the visuals. Given that you see these things every day now with music acts I don't know what the big deal is.

[cjl71178]

The last band I was in, I sang about 75% of the songs. I used a Shure Beta 58 and IMO, it's one of the best mics I've ever used. I just used to have the stand off to the left side and when I needed to sing, I'd just pull the boom arm over.

I'd suggest either a Beta 58 or 57.

I used to have a Shure headset mic which I didn't care for so I kind of agree with you Nate on using the headset. However, I did have a friend who used a headset mic which didn't look too bad at all (I believe it was made by Crown). I almost considered buying one, but I had the same problem wondering how to maintain dynamics with my vocals, especially with a regular mic you can just back off it.

Here's another suggestion if you were to go with a headset mic or even a regular mic: You can get a "on/off" switchbox for your vocal mic. A soundman I used to work with made one for me because when I wasn't singing, my vocal mic picked up alot of stuff and it was better for the overall mix. I used to just place it right next to my hi hat pedal and when I was ready to sing, I'd just stomp on it and my mic would be on.

Best of luck.

[driver]

Originally Posted by nate

how many of you would play a pink fluffy kit with orange strips and green neon flashing lights

**runs to OCDP with 10 grand**

;o)

[Muckster]

You could always go with the classic Jeff Indyke signature mic.

[JIM_fear]

Originally Posted by nate

thanks for the info, i've used a SM58 at most gigs, and the sounguys still find it pretty hard to get my softer vocals, without getting the drums to much (they're v.good sound guys too, 1 does black sabbath, so it's not them). i mic i used looked a lot like that drum mic link i sent, but not that actual mic...

Then you should definitely go for the Beta 58. It will cost you about $150-160 USD and it's definitely a great live vocal mic and in my experience it picks up better than the SM58 when you are close to the mic. That should solve your problem. As long as the mic isn't pointed towards your kit it won't pick up anything but your voice.

Originally Posted by JeffIndyke

Nice to hear someone finally say something nice about my mic!

I think he was being ironic, Jeff...

[beer bong]

I recently covered my headset mic with flesh coloured medical tape. Looks abit NASA close up, but from a distance looks alright. The black wind cover can be covered in a similar colour pantyhose material to complete the job.

Obviously for more inspiration during the love songs, the pantyhose section chosen might want to be taken from somewhere toward the gusset, and unwashed...........

[T.Underhill]

Originally Posted by Mediocrefunkybeat

I think he was being ironic, Jeff...

Fabulous!
.

[justathought]

Just a thought...dunno if this will help but couldn't you use a fairly cheap directional mic with a compressor and a on off pedal for large sections of scilence to prevent feedback??

...just a thought

[caddywumpus]

Originally Posted by justathought

Just a thought...dunno if this will help but couldn't you use a fairly cheap directional mic with a compressor and a on off pedal for large sections of scilence to prevent feedback??

...just a thought

Audix OM series microphones are great. They are EQ'd for vocals, reject sounds coming in from the sides, can handle a high SPL without distorting, and they reject feedback nicely. I've used the OM-2 and OM-3, and they are incredible! They are a definite step up from the SM-58, and the OM-2 costs the same!

[bonzolead]

I've used headsets,boom stands,etc. the best i've found is a round mic stand base with a gooseneck with a Shure 87a mic i've used SM58's for years and they are an excellent mic but the 87a is a condenser mic so it's phantom powered and it's isolates the instruments and other ambiant noises.the set-up tucks aways into a nice tight spot if you like myself sometimes play on small stages then you know every little bit of space counts.

Keep Swattin'
Bonzolead

[chillbeast]

Originally Posted by bighaibigdrums

Go for a Shure WH30 headset mic. It will cost you a couple of bucks but it will solve all your problems

THIS.

If you are worried about the breathing noise, get a noise gate and set it up properly, some light compression might help with getting your softer vocals to cut through the mix.

[AVW777]

I use a Beta 57A works great for sing softly and loudly.

[Concrete Pete]

Hey Nate,


I'm a singing drummer also, and I've been thru the gamut of mikes, stands, booms, etc., etc., etc...... I eventually came back to a headset mic. Forget how it looks--go for ease and sound. My headset mic is pretty slim, and was frankensteined together by a pro friend of mine--I'll take a pic when I get a chance. It works GREAT, and is light as a feather. It also has a volume control on the box (belt clip mounted) so I can adjust my volume, not someone else.

As far as the mic picking up breathing noise, (I call that Huffing" or "Darth Vader syndrome!) all I had to do was position the mic head on the SIDE of my mouth, (away from being directly under my big nose!) and about 1/4" away from touching my face, and bent into a "P", so the mic faces my mouth. I also put TWO small foam covers over the mic, which also helps a lot.

I don't know about you, but constantly leaning into or away from a mic on a stand or boom was very tiring to me, and subtracted from my drumming. The least tiresome version of that was a long boom behind me with a 2' gooseneck in a "U" overhead. Even then, it got old, as I sometimes whip my head around when I really get into a tune. I think most mics (uni or not) will still pick up drum sounds, especially cymbal crashes. Headset mics seem (at least to me) to limit that the most. BTW, my mic is wired, not wireless--I had some sound problems (buzz, etc) with the wireless one I owned, and sold it.

Good luck,
C. P.

[dwsabianguy]

For those who don't know, the capsule is the biggest single factor in the sound of a dynamic mic. Shure 57s (Beta and SM series) are tailored more toward instrument use, whereas 58s are tailored for vocal use. And in that light, if I was to choose a Shure dynamic mic for live vocal use, it would be a Beta 58. The Betas seem to have more high-end reproduction, which will translate into a slightly better cut, while the dynamic capsule will be heard better (more mids with dynamic than condenser, normally) through the mix.

But since drums tend to leak into all sound sources in live sound to a degree, I'd go for something with a tighter polar pattern to block out as much off-axis sound as possible. Think super- or hypercardioid. The Beta 58, Beta 87, Beta 56 if you want that one (by my experience, its most common use is on snare and toms), and most Audix OM-series mics. Sennheiser makes some good stuff, too - the e845 would probably be your best bet for drum vox for the price, though the e945 will probably sound better.

I've never seen a live-use vocal mic that was omnidirectional. The only omni mics I've ever seen were either studio condensers, Earthworks mics, or contractor measurement mics.

Slap a little bit of gating and compression, and you should be good.

[mcbike]

I use a shure 87A and a boom stand. The only thing I do different than most is put my mic on the right side next to the floor tom. It gives me more space to open up on the hats and snare without hitting the mic. I discovered this by accident because I had a fan blowing into my mic so I switched sides, and I really like it.

[Meat the beat]

You'll be hard pushed to beat the Beta 58, but if you need a little more directivity, use the Beta 56, its slightly more suited to vocals than the beta 57.

Get a headset - a good one, use an on/off footswitch for panting moments and light compression.

[Aeolian]

Originally Posted by Meat the beat

You'll be hard pushed to beat the Beta 58, but if you need a little more directivity, use the Beta 56, its slightly more suited to vocals than the beta 57.

This is probably what was put in front of you. A Beta 56. The Beta series is more directional (Hypercardioid instead of regular cardioid). The 56 is basically the same thing as the 57 but with the integrated mount which probably makes it easier on a boom around the front of you.

The 58 and 57 (either SM or Beta) are basically the same capsule, but the nature of the windscreen changes the sound a little. The 58 has more of a scoop to the sound that works well with most voices. But some people like the sound of their voices with a 57 better (I'm one of them).

The Beta mics are also a little hotter output so there is a bit more gain that also helps with the level of your voice before feedback.

The only issue with hypercardioid mics is that they have almost no rejection at 180 degrees, unlike a cardioid. Meaning that whatever is directly behind them will get picked up too. This is more of an issue when they are on stands in front of wedges and pointed up at the singers so that the rear of the mic is pointed directly at the wedge. They work better pointed more flat. Same with one over your kit. Try to make sure the back of it isn't pointed right at a crash.

Some soundmen are nervous about putting a hypercardioid mic in front of a singing drummer because the very narrow pattern will cause the drummers voice to fade in and out if he moves his head. As long as you are one of those folks who sings with your lips right on the mic's windscreen, this shouldn't be a problem.

[jim_gregory]

I posed the same question for the same reason. I took the advise and got a beta 58A and never looked back. Do it and call it done.
Be warned that there is no perect answer.

[Jerry F]

Although no longer available you might want to check out the Sennheiser 855 if you can find one. It's a hyper-cardiod dynamic mic that will cut through the mix and has a good range. It has a slightly lower sensitivity (1.8mV) than the 835 (2.7mV) which helps prevent picking up the drums. It's very directional so you will have to position it directly in front of you. I've read that it is comparable to the Shure beta 58A.

[Spreggy]

Originally Posted by PureRockFury

If you are worried about your looks then you aren't too serious about getting your vocals heard properly.

If you aren't worried about how you look, how is it you belong on stage?

Just sayin'.

Besides, a headset takes any mic technique out of the question. It would be ideal however if your band is named The Borg.

[kettles]

This thread is over four years old. I wonder how Nate got on with his mic problem?

I've been playing & singin for over 50 years now and when things get technical one of the first problems is the vocal mic and the pick up from the drums. Heres what I do, I raise and lower the boom, I have it fairly tight and the up position is just above my head and the amount of bleeding is minimal when its up. As for mics I now use a regular sm58 but I did use a 57 for years but its a fragile piece and is safer as a hand held mic. Love the sound of the 57 over everything except a few of the older Syns.
As for the softer vocal dynamic I'm not sure what you can do other then the band working a power dynamic too. I think your looking for some studio magic at a live performance. Maybe a studio engineer might have some ideas for you on that one. Possibly a sound company that has lots of experience with groups that utilize alot of effects. I'm thinking theres an enhancer that can give you the effect your looking for. As a Blues performer I'm not into to many effects and other than a pinch of verb out there, thats all I need. Todays technical components are amazing even for live performance so I'm guessing what your asking about is out there.


.............I think the band dropping a hard dynamic down and the soft voice there right on time is a great effect. We use it in Blues music a ton and the response is always there.
Doc

[brentcn]

Beta 57.

The Beta 87 is a much nicer mic (too nice!), and it's quite a bit brighter than the 57 -- and also more expensive. The Beta 57 rolls off nicely on the high end, so cymbal bleed isn't quite so bad. The Beta 58 is OK, too. Tried them both, prefer the 57 for its sound, and the grille shape.

+1 on moving the mic to the floor tom side!

[mikel]

Dont know why everyone keeps giving this guy a hard time over headset mics.

He said in his initial post he wont wear one cos he dislikes them. End of story.
Come up with a viable alternative instead.

If you didn't like say...... Sonor drums or Vic Firth sticks, for whatever reason, just cos someone said "hey whats wrong with you, there the best" would you instantly start using them? Didnt think so.

Give him a break.

[tamadrm]

Originally Posted by chillbeast

THIS.

If you are worried about the breathing noise, get a noise gate and set it up properly, some light compression might help with getting your softer vocals to cut through the mix.

+1...they work great,and with a wind screen,there's just no way you will hear breathing noises.Forget that "calling center" nonsense..Deen Castronovo (Journey) uses one to great effect,and he's a pretty busy drummer. Thats only one example.They are becoming more and more popular with singing drummers......because they work,and because they solve a multitude of problems.And to me...its looks cool and professional; nothing more.

If you're worried about other sounds like grunting bleeding through,on tunes you're not singing........thats what they have on and off switches for.No brainer.Cheers

Steve B

[mikel]

Originally Posted by tamadrm

+1...they work great,and with a wind screen,there's just no way you will hear breathing noises.Forget that "calling center" nonsense..Deen Castronovo (Journey) uses one to great effect,and he's a pretty busy drummer. Thats only one example.They are becoming more and more popular with singing drummers......because they work,and because they solve a multitude of problems.And to me...its looks cool and professional; nothing more.

If you're worried about other sounds like grunting bleeding through,on tunes you're not singing........thats what they have on and off switches for.No brainer.Cheers

Steve B

Someone else not listening.

He said he wont wear a headset, he hates them. Hello.....

[tamadrm]

My post was directed at the OP...not you.

Steve B