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  #1  
Old 04-12-2007, 03:14 AM
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Default Some natural shell goodness

**UPDATE 4/19**

Here's my latest aquisition



13x7 Birds Eye Maple (1/2" thick shell)





-----------------------





Might be adding this little beauty to my harem of sexy snares. Santos Mahogany stave built shell. Oh... and for those of you that think Mahogany is cheap wood you're thinking the wood that's labeled at mahogany that isn't true mahogany. =)

Enjoy!

Last edited by crazyhorse; 04-19-2007 at 02:40 PM.
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Old 04-12-2007, 03:27 AM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

Wow. That is sexy. I'm thinking euber-thin black nickel tube lugs and matching hoops would make that snare to die for
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Old 04-12-2007, 03:27 AM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

WOW! Insane drum porn and it's not even done!

The density of that shell is probably equal to or greater than a plywood rock maple shell, due to the fact that a stave shell uses about 1 percent of the glue that a ply shell does.

Get it and put it together and tell us how it goes.
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Old 04-12-2007, 03:31 AM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

I dunno... I love my chrome. Actually I'm having custom lugs done for me at a CNC shop so hopefully I'll be able to get those soon. It's either this one or a bubinga one like it. I'm torn. =) BTW.. if anyone gets an itch for one of these let me know and I'll put ya in touch with my buddy that makes them. Meeting him has had a rather negative impact on my wallet.

I did show my birdseye maple shell right?
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Old 04-12-2007, 03:41 AM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

isn't that a bloke from Ghostnote? How much did he want for it?

I'm really looking into building some stave shells, especially with all the beautiful woods there are in Australia. I have all the tools, i got such a kick out of assembling and finishing my gig kit that im really keen to get stuck into another one.
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Old 04-12-2007, 03:52 AM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

Yep.. Franky goes to hollywood.. his name is Francois. I'll pm you on the pricing bit.
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Old 04-12-2007, 05:09 AM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

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Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga View Post
WOW! Insane drum porn and it's not even done!

The density of that shell is probably equal to or greater than a plywood rock maple shell, due to the fact that a stave shell uses about 1 percent of the glue that a ply shell does.

Get it and put it together and tell us how it goes.
Please get off the glue stuff, are you related to Mr. Ed? How about giving us a taste of your glueless shells? I'd love to hear the difference.
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Old 04-12-2007, 07:27 AM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

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Originally Posted by Jusstickinaround View Post
Please get off the glue stuff, are you related to Mr. Ed? How about giving us a taste of your glueless shells? I'd love to hear the difference.
Ease up tiger, it's not like he's lying or being disrespectful to your family...

Stave and solid shells are practically a different animal. You will hear the difference. If you like normal ply drums, that's fine, if you like solid/stave drums like DMC thats ok too. He can voice his opinion and say some facts behind the drums themselves.

You seem to be getting a bit defensive on any mention of ply, mid-range, phillipine-mahogany, or Gretsch drums being inferior. Maybe you should lighten up and take the comments about drums with a grain of salt...

I played a stave shell drum last week and it was superb. 6x13" and some Australian hardwood if I remember, very similar to those Brady snares everyone drools over. I'm not going to do it justice by trying to describe it, so all I'm going to say is go out and try one for yourself.

DMC's band's site:
www.terrasonus.com
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Old 04-12-2007, 02:23 PM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

Stickin: I'm sorry buddy but the shell REALLY does make a difference in the sound. I'd encourage you to find a stave builder near you or someone that owns a stave shell and try one out for yourself. I'm not going to harp on the glue bit but the drums are truly playable works of art. I mean...if you pulled all the hardware and finish off your ply shell would you be able to look at it and say "damn... that's gorgeous!" lol Plus yes, sound wise these have a unique sound and it really brings out the properties of various woods using this construction method.
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Old 04-12-2007, 02:59 PM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

I'm really being tempted by the idea of buying a 6.5x14" (or 13") pearl free-floating snare and then picking up a really nice stave/solid shell or two that I can slip in.

Or just fit it with some of those black nickel tube lugs I was talking about...
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Old 04-12-2007, 03:20 PM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

lol It would probably be pretty slick with the black nickel. Dunno though... brass would look pretty darn sweet on this color I think.
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  #12  
Old 04-12-2007, 06:14 PM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

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Originally Posted by Ozzy Biz View Post
Ease up tiger, it's not like he's lying or being disrespectful to your family...

Stave and solid shells are practically a different animal. You will hear the difference. If you like normal ply drums, that's fine, if you like solid/stave drums like DMC thats ok too. He can voice his opinion and say some facts behind the drums themselves.

You seem to be getting a bit defensive on any mention of ply, mid-range, phillipine-mahogany, or Gretsch drums being inferior. Maybe you should lighten up and take the comments about drums with a grain of salt...

I played a stave shell drum last week and it was superb. 6x13" and some Australian hardwood if I remember, very similar to those Brady snares everyone drools over. I'm not going to do it justice by trying to describe it, so all I'm going to say is go out and try one for yourself.

DMC's band's site:
www.terrasonus.com
I currently have no sound recordings on my band's site of the Spirit set. However, you can hear snare and kit samples at http://www.spiritdrums.com/snare/sounds.html.

Solid-shell and stave drums exaggerate the inherent properties of the wood (or, looking at it another way, ply drums reduce the inherent properties of the wood). They are louder and have more presence, articulation, sustain and projection. However, that's not always a good thing. My Spirit set is very lively and its sound draws attention to itself. It has the potential to overpower the other instruments in the band, similar to a metal or acrylic set. So I usually have to play it pretty softly, where it is still expressive and beautiful, but I crave more opportunities to let 'er rip.
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  #13  
Old 04-12-2007, 11:10 PM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

how much do those cost ya?
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  #14  
Old 04-12-2007, 11:21 PM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

Stave shells run from about $100-250 depending on the wood used. That doesn't count hardware, etc.
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  #15  
Old 04-13-2007, 02:29 AM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

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Originally Posted by Ozzy Biz View Post
I'm really being tempted by the idea of buying a 6.5x14" (or 13") pearl free-floating snare and then picking up a really nice stave/solid shell or two that I can slip in.

Or just fit it with some of those black nickel tube lugs I was talking about...
could you do that? that'd be awesome....
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Old 04-13-2007, 02:34 AM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

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Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga View Post
I currently have no sound recordings on my band's site of the Spirit set. However, you can hear snare and kit samples at http://www.spiritdrums.com/snare/sounds.html.

Solid-shell and stave drums exaggerate the inherent properties of the wood (or, looking at it another way, ply drums reduce the inherent properties of the wood). They are louder and have more presence, articulation, sustain and projection. However, that's not always a good thing. My Spirit set is very lively and its sound draws attention to itself. It has the potential to overpower the other instruments in the band, similar to a metal or acrylic set. So I usually have to play it pretty softly, where it is still expressive and beautiful, but I crave more opportunities to let 'er rip.
Yes, they sound good, but not really any better than other kits I've heard. Personally I'd rather own a vintage Ludwig kit over anything I've seen. It's not just the sound to me, it's also the character of the drum and the drum maker. I've no doubt they are great drum makers, but to me they look a bit too much like furniture, pretty, but boreing.
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Old 04-13-2007, 02:50 AM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

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Originally Posted by Ozzy Biz View Post
I'm really being tempted by the idea of buying a 6.5x14" (or 13") pearl free-floating snare and then picking up a really nice stave/solid shell or two that I can slip in.

Or just fit it with some of those black nickel tube lugs I was talking about...
A stave or solid-shell drum with floating heads would be the ultimate drum! No penetrations into the wood and the purest concentrated wood sound ... the way drums have been made for thousands of years.

Solid shells and staves are the most ancient ways of making wood drums. There's just something about that connection to history that makes solid shells and staves so enchanting to me - in addition to the amazing sound.
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  #18  
Old 04-13-2007, 03:19 AM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

Hrm... wouldn't be that hard to design the free floating setup. Guess I'll call my machine shop buddy tomorrow. All it is is a long threaded tube really.

Stickin: Umm... how much more character can you get?! We're talking about a labor of love here... each piece cut by hand to an exact angle, pieced together, hand lathed to a smooth surface. Then hand finished and sanded to a perfect shine. THAT my friend is character in a drum and a drum builder.

But yes.. I think I'm going to nab this one. Guess I'll make a call tomorrow and get a trick throwoff and some other goodies headed this way to finish it up.
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Old 04-13-2007, 03:48 AM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

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Originally Posted by crazyhorse View Post
Hrm... wouldn't be that hard to design the free floating setup. Guess I'll call my machine shop buddy tomorrow. All it is is a long threaded tube really.

Stickin: Umm... how much more character can you get?! We're talking about a labor of love here... each piece cut by hand to an exact angle, pieced together, hand lathed to a smooth surface. Then hand finished and sanded to a perfect shine. THAT my friend is character in a drum and a drum builder.

But yes.. I think I'm going to nab this one. Guess I'll make a call tomorrow and get a trick throwoff and some other goodies headed this way to finish it up.
I don't know what it is, but there is just something very special about vintage drums, the sound may not be any better than newer kits, but they have a different sound that is hard to find in newer kits. Plus to me, Ludwig Classic lugs are just that, classy, and I dig the finishes they used.
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Old 04-13-2007, 03:55 AM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

I loved my 70's slingerlands. =) Oh and my new snares sit right next to my 1960's slingerland snare.... so I understand that to a point.
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Old 04-13-2007, 02:09 PM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

Huh? How is that shell built? I can`t see any plies...
Anyway it is really sexy. Give us some more pics when it is built! =)

Always thought about building a snare...is it very difficult? And much costs a normal Keller maple shell?

thanks,

Karl
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Old 04-13-2007, 02:16 PM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

Karl,

That's because there ARE no plies. A "stave" drum starts out life like this:



Then it ends up like this:



before finally looking like

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Old 04-13-2007, 02:22 PM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

CH, my sister lives in Charlotte...When you finish that stave drum how about just dropping it off at her place and she can mail it to me. Thanks.

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Old 04-13-2007, 02:25 PM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

LOL! Sure thing dude. Anything for a fellow Taye player. If you're ever up this way visiting let me know and you'll definitely get to test drive it. =)
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Old 04-13-2007, 04:02 PM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

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Karl,

That's because there ARE no plies. A "stave" drum starts out life like this:

haha...thanks for the quick response! That looks absolutly amazing. And kinda sick...I`m always stunned about those constructions.
I think a Remo Snare drum is also built in this "wine ton" way.

Are there particular advantages??

Karl
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Old 04-13-2007, 04:11 PM
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Default @ crazyhorse

nice work, very nice work.

brady does ist also, and do you know germany's troyan drums? they, too. ;-)
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Old 04-13-2007, 04:17 PM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

Karl,

At the risk of getting everyone in an uproar again..... Yes there are. A typical ply snare drum probably has around 2,000 square inches of glue. That one you're looking at probably has around 20-30 square inches of glue. Glue = dead space in the sound.
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Old 04-13-2007, 05:08 PM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

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Karl,

At the risk of getting everyone in an uproar again..... Yes there are. A typical ply snare drum probably has around 2,000 square inches of glue. That one you're looking at probably has around 20-30 square inches of glue. Glue = dead space in the sound.
Yeah, understood. And just by the way: Are there still drums made from just 1 piece of wood?? =)
So without any glue...

just curious.

Karl
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Old 04-13-2007, 05:20 PM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

deathmetalconga has the shining example of that... http://www.spiritdrums.com
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Old 04-13-2007, 05:29 PM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

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Yeah, understood. And just by the way: Are there still drums made from just 1 piece of wood?? =)
So without any glue...

just curious.

Karl
A number of companies make solid-shell snares, like Brady. It is easy to find people who will sell you a raw solid shell to finish. To my knowledge, there is just one company that makes entire sets out of solid wood shells: www.spiritdrums.com.

There are other options. There is also block construction, where wood is cut into blocks and stacked and glued together in a circular "brick wall." This uses more glue than a stave drum, but less than a ply drum.

Some companies make steambent shells - there is just one plank of wood that is heated with steam and bent into a circle and the ends are glued together. This is how Western drums were most often made up until the Industrial Revolution. Then, people developed plywood technology and found they could make drums faster and at lower cost, and still produce an excellent sound. So that's the way Western trap set drum shells have been made for 150 years, with little change, and I'd say 95 percent of all drums sold are ply construction, the rest being non-wood and non-ply wood. About the only areas that stave and solid shell still dominate are hand percussion.

Solid-shells and stave drums concentrate all the qualities of a wooden drum. There is no glue to absorb sound and the grains of wood conduct sound from the bearing edge into the resonating area. There is more resonance, sustain, attack, character and volume compared to a ply drum. This is not necessarily a good thing, depending on the situation, but it is these qualities that endear solid and stave shells to those who like them.
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Old 04-13-2007, 08:08 PM
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Default @ deathmetalconga

craviotto does also.
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Old 04-13-2007, 08:34 PM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

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Originally Posted by crazyhorse View Post
Glue = dead space in the sound.
I won't argue that there are no differences in sound between stave or solid shelled drums and ply drums, because there ARE differences, but I think you guys are maybe oversimplifying the glue issue.

Glue doesn't necessarily mean a dead space in the sound. Fiberglass drums are 50% or more "glue." Acrylic drums are essentially 100% specialized "glue." I've built laminate bows, and I can tell you that some glues are more dense than most woods, and can actually enhance certain characteristics of the wood.

If you prefer solid wood or staves that's great, but get over the "glue is bad" mindset. It's just different.
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Old 04-13-2007, 08:52 PM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

I am sure there is a difference in sound, and I am sure it is nice to have an arsenal of different made drums, but "That Great Gretsch sound" does not come from a solid wood drum. I don't think anybody would argue with me that the Gretsch USA drums are great sounding drums, however they are not made out of 100% Maple shells. There is one ply of gumwood in between and I think that is one of the reason for the sound.
I think 100% Maple is not the best formula for drum shells, I believe a mixture of wood is more ideal.
So just saying that the glue effects the drum negatively doesn't do it for me, sorry.
I am also working right now on a steam bent Maple shell, and can't wait until I can try that sucker out.
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Old 04-13-2007, 09:55 PM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

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I won't argue that there are no differences in sound between stave or solid shelled drums and ply drums, because there ARE differences, but I think you guys are maybe oversimplifying the glue issue.

Glue doesn't necessarily mean a dead space in the sound. Fiberglass drums are 50% or more "glue." Acrylic drums are essentially 100% specialized "glue." I've built laminate bows, and I can tell you that some glues are more dense than most woods, and can actually enhance certain characteristics of the wood.

If you prefer solid wood or staves that's great, but get over the "glue is bad" mindset. It's just different.
If acrylic plastic is glue, then any substance made of complex organic or synthetic organic molecules could be glue. Do you really mean that?

In any case, you are right in that glue is not necessarily bad or good. Maybe it does improve the sound - or maybe it deadens the sound (as I tend to believe). The truth is, nobody really knows about mystery glue. What is its specific gravity? Is it oil or water based? How does it interact with wood fibers? All this matters. Most of what we know about glue comes from stave and solid-shell makers trying to promote their products.

I do find it telling that no ply drum manufacturers ever discuss glue, what it's made of, how much they use, its properties, etc. Their silence on this important ingredient does not inspire confidence.
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Old 04-13-2007, 10:11 PM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

DMC, my comment wasn't so much directed at your views - I believe you have always said that we don't really know what the effect of the glue is. I agree with you there, because I doubt we'll ever be able to quantize the acoustic properties of the glue itself vs. the effects it has on the wood plies, etc. I just was rebelling against the "glue is bad" vibe in general, and the statement that glue causes dead spots in the sound.

I'm not a chemist, but as I understand it from a guy here who runs an aerospace parts plant, acrylic resin and many of the organic/synthetic resins can be used as "glue" in certain applications. They combine gluing, laminating, and molding processes, so the lines get a little fuzzy (to me anyway). I guess my point was simply to expand peoples' conception of glue.

Anyway...

Last edited by IDDrummer; 04-13-2007 at 10:42 PM.
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  #36  
Old 04-13-2007, 11:18 PM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

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DMC, my comment wasn't so much directed at your views - I believe you have always said that we don't really know what the effect of the glue is. I agree with you there, because I doubt we'll ever be able to quantize the acoustic properties of the glue itself vs. the effects it has on the wood plies, etc. I just was rebelling against the "glue is bad" vibe in general, and the statement that glue causes dead spots in the sound.

I'm not a chemist, but as I understand it from a guy here who runs an aerospace parts plant, acrylic resin and many of the organic/synthetic resins can be used as "glue" in certain applications. They combine gluing, laminating, and molding processes, so the lines get a little fuzzy (to me anyway). I guess my point was simply to expand peoples' conception of glue.

Anyway...
Good points, especially about how resins can be their own medium, or used to bind other things together. Modern materials science really does blur all that.

One good place to start understanding glue would be to know its specific gravity. Ideally, it would be at least equal to the wood when dry. The less it is, the more "dead" it will be. If it's too high, however, it could alter the natural wood resonance - not necessarily a bad thing perhaps.
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Old 04-14-2007, 02:30 AM
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Default Re: Some natural shell goodness

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Good points, especially about how resins can be their own medium, or used to bind other things together. Modern materials science really does blur all that.

One good place to start understanding glue would be to know its specific gravity. Ideally, it would be at least equal to the wood when dry. The less it is, the more "dead" it will be. If it's too high, however, it could alter the natural wood resonance - not necessarily a bad thing perhaps.
This is all very interesting, but it really just comes down to the sound of the drum. If the drum sounds good I don't care if it's made out of particle board.
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Old 04-15-2007, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga
A number of companies make solid-shell snares, like Brady. It is easy to find people who will sell you a raw solid shell to finish. To my knowledge, there is just one company that makes entire sets out of solid wood shells: www.spiritdrums.com.
again: craviotto does also.
shown on namm, last year.
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Old 04-15-2007, 07:38 AM
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again: craviotto does also.
shown on namm, last year.
are you sure your not thinking of steambent shells? they're often called "solid" although they really are more like 1-ply shells. craviotto's shells are steambent shells, so they're not "solid" like spirit drums, which are drums carved out of a solid log.

but if craviotto did have a truly "solid" set disregard the above statement.
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Old 04-15-2007, 08:04 AM
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macmarkus macmarkus is offline
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Default @ monkieman

ouuuh ... my fault. wrong definition of "solid".

you're completely right. craviotto uses "planks" ;-), and brady just offers snare in "solid".
sorry for my mistake and thanks for your correction.
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