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  #1  
Old 07-29-2014, 02:36 AM
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Default Leave Me Alone, rant 2

How timely to get on the forum and see a thread titled "Leave Me Alone", because I want to post one titled that too, but with a different twist. "You jealous, no-nothing-about-drums-wanta-be's, LEAVE ME ALONE!" Quit telling me after a performance that my drums are out of tune.... Stop telling me that my rolls aren't smooth enough (from jazz players, and I'm a rocker), stop telling me that my great Ludwig set sounds flat ("Sorry dude, but I have Remo Emperor heads on for a reason, and my drums aren't tuned to musical notes.. they're tuned to John Bonham's tuning because it's a Bonham-size set!).... etc... etc.. etc.... Why are there always people that try and tell you what your drums should sound like and how you should play? Why do wanta-be jazz players try and tell a rock player how to do rolls? At the same time that these wanta-bees are telling you you should play different and your drums should be different, 10-times as many people, including other musicians, are telling you that you sound great!
Have you guys all experienced such things? I just want to tell these weirdo's "Dude, go tell it to my 2 classic rock band groups, my church worship team, and the other people I play for that love me playing for them."
Am I perfect, and have no room for improvement? Of course not.. have a long way to go.. but these people that either aren't musicians and think they are, or don't play the same genre of music are very annoying...
People, "Leave me ALONE!"
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Old 07-29-2014, 02:51 AM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

Well, I wasn't going to say anything, but ok. ;)
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Old 07-29-2014, 03:23 AM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

marthared:

I have had a few people tell me stuff like that, but not many.

I don't exactly know how to say this. I don't want to offend you or anybody else.

Ah heck, I'll just say it !
I think this is happening to you mostly because you are a female drummer.
I think many people feel a female drummer needs their assistance and their opinion.
And these same people think a male drummer does not need their assistance or opinion.

It's crazy I know, but I'll bet that is what is happening here.

.
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Old 07-29-2014, 04:32 AM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

I don't mean to offend either, but half of this may be sexism. My spouse gets this treatment at work at times. Some males thinking that a woman ' needs to know this/that' and of course these men 'know everything' and tell her.

But are these others all male? Are they all drummers?

Honestly, If these were other drummers making such comment, I'd actually test their judgment. If not done already, I'd record myself/band and see what it sounds like 'out there' where they sit. Drums do sound different 'out there' off the bandstand, thus the need to always record on a little device, even rehearsals. If alls Ok, then ya they're full of BS...end of story.

To me, rolls are rolls, in jazz vs. rock or any other genre.
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Old 07-29-2014, 04:34 AM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by opentune View Post
To me, rolls are rolls, in jazz vs. rock or any other genre.
I dunno man, have you ever tried to get a good dinner roll going on the kit? Doesn't work so well, regardless of genre.
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  #6  
Old 07-29-2014, 06:42 AM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

I honestly hadn't really considered it being a female/age thing.... but I think you're probably right. I've recorded myself multiple times for critiquing my technique and the drums themselves.. I ask my bands and my worship team leader to tell me if they'd like me to do something different and if the drums sound good... all is good with them.. sooo.... Yuk! ... But I DO have a sense of humor... "dinner rolls"!!!! LOL~~~ good one! If I see the last guy that did it again, I'll make sure I have some to give him!
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Old 07-29-2014, 07:47 AM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

Musos never tell me things like that after gigs. Occasionally when I've posted videos online people have suggested that I could work on my left wrist. It's a fair point - my left wrist has all the suppleness of a Thunderbirds puppet.

In a way, being criticised for one thing is a compliment. There's a lot of things that can be criticised in a performance - time, tightness, dynamics, feel, cycbal choices, drum tone and tuning (esp snare), setup, note choices, mechanics of movement, listening/responsiveness, etc.

So if someone criticises just one thing abut your gig, then that implicitly suggests that they think you're going okay in the other areas. If a muso in the audience has a shopping list of grievances about your playing then it's unlikely they'd say anything, rather than suggesting possible improvements to one or two areas.

Martha, given the above, I'm not convinced the amount of "helpful" feedback you're receiving is due to gender. Maybe it's a combination of being a woman, an inexperienced musician, and operating in a worship environment?
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:02 AM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

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Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Martha, given the above, I'm not convinced the amount of "helpful" feedback you're receiving is due to gender. Maybe it's a combination of being a woman, an inexperienced musician, and operating in a worship environment?
.... Oh! Leave her alone...

:)
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Old 07-29-2014, 11:27 AM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

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Originally Posted by Mad About Drums View Post
.... Oh! Leave her alone...

:)
Have I said something wrong?
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Old 07-29-2014, 01:15 PM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

There's a barely visible smiley there. :-D

Ms Martha (forgive me if I presume erroneously that Martha is your real name), I agree with the other commenters that sexism is likely playing a role. For that, I apologize. Mansplaining is never acceptable. I applaud you for daring to take up an overwhelmingly male musical pursuit. Drumming isn't easy in the first place, and being a woman in a male-dominated demographic is almost always awful for the woman.

I wish you every success! I have no solution other than a knee to the groin of the worst offenders. Though I suspect that doesn't exactly fit in with your Christian philosophy, I assure you it is remarkably effective. ;-)
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  #11  
Old 07-29-2014, 01:36 PM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

maybe it's the level of your playing. people seem to give more help to beginner types then others. if you were killing it behind the drums no one would say boo.
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Old 07-29-2014, 01:37 PM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

Well, context is everything, but my first thought is that it could be some form of jealousy. Some people enjoy belittling others and undermining them, as if that makes them (the nasty people) appear better somehow. My rule of thumb for determining whether advice is intended to be helpful or not is whether the phrase "you should" is used: if it is, the alarm bells ring like mad.

I suggest you become accustomed to using the phrase "I don't want to." It pretty much puts paid to argument, and it comes in very handy in all aspects of life.
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Old 07-29-2014, 01:47 PM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Have I said something wrong?
Nope... You haven't my dear friend, it's just my dry sense of humour :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by STXBob View Post
There's a barely visible smiley there. :-D
Indeed :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magenta View Post
My rule of thumb for determining whether advice is intended to be helpful or not is whether the phrase "you should" is used: if it is, the alarm bells ring like mad.
...Oh! ...Leave me alone.

:)
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Old 07-29-2014, 02:02 PM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

If you are out in the public, the public will respond. My suggestion is just to say, "I'm working on that," and smile. Maybe jealousy, maybe sexism (jealousy) maybe the comments are made after a night of drinking, who knows, but telling them you are working on your skills and moving on will quell any confrontation, and keep your blood pressure down.
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Old 07-29-2014, 02:16 PM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

Sounds like a mixture of alcohol, sexism, and attraction. Like they were attracted to you, but because they were drinking, and their filters were down, their underlying sexism spilled out.

I think some guys may have a problem saying to a gal that they admired her, so they play the neg card just to get talking.

Total guess though. You have to wonder if you were a guy, would they have even bothered commenting?
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  #16  
Old 07-29-2014, 02:36 PM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

This is interesting.

My approach to feedback: good, an opportunity to learn something.
One approach is to just to say "Thanks, I'll take that on board".
I consider it and run it by people whose competence / opinion I respect.
Then decide if it's something I want to act on.

If multiple people mention the same thing independently, there is likely something there.

I try to leave gender out of skills and technique.
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Old 07-29-2014, 03:32 PM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

I've always found playing shows, that there are the general public, who really don't notice much, unless you really screw up in a song, some musicians that are happy to be out and supporting other bands, who don't say anything, and then there are some musicians in the back that will cut up anything you do, due to jealousy, or just being super critical. And most of those last category will talk a good game, but probably never play on stage themselves. lol.

Someone above mentioned to listen for if you get common criticisms from different people, then maybe there is an element of truth to it, that you may want to investigate on your own.
But always take everything with a grain of salt.

I learned a while ago, that if you are in the band, you draw a lot of attention to yourself. People will come and talk to you, and that's just part of being in a band. Put on your professional face and be polite and gracious, but don't take anything to heart. You could go back to the same club a week later, and not one person will talk to you, because you aren't in the band that day. It helps to keep you grounded. lol.

And there could be an element of you drawing extra attention from being female. It's uncommon enough that people would notice.
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Old 07-29-2014, 03:33 PM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

Another thought: IME, people who are genuinely trying to be helpful are usually aware that unasked-for advice is often unwelcome, so they go out of their way to make it as palatable as possible. I used to know somebody who was vastly knowledgeable in her area of expertise, who used to ask "Would you like me to show you an easier way to do that?" She made it easy to say Yes Please, but it was equally easy to say "No thanks, I'm used to doing it this way and I'm happy with it." Either way, she didn't get anybody's back up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad About Drums View Post
...Oh! ...Leave me alone.

:)
I don't have much choice, do I - you're never bloody here these days!
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Old 07-29-2014, 05:29 PM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood Jim View Post
marthared:

I think this is happening to you mostly because you are a female drummer.
I think many people feel a female drummer needs their assistance and their opinion.
And these same people think a male drummer does not need their assistance or opinion.

It's crazy I know, but I'll bet that is what is happening here.

.
Just to add, I agree with Jim, Larry and other who said that there is likely an element of mansplaining in this...

I just think it's important how women react to this.
Having a hopefully objective view of my competence at various things, allows me to react differently. For example, at things I'm really competent at because I have a masters degree and over 10 years experience at it and published stuff, if someone mansplains stuff (or other women condescend), you can just calmly state your reasons for what your doing and soon they will realise they have underestimated you.

This is of course not the case with my drumming, where I have two years experience.
In terms of drumming, my instructor provides objective feedback. So if other people raise stuff I know I need to work on, that's cool and has nothing to do with me being a female...
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Old 07-29-2014, 07:37 PM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

This never happens to me.
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Old 07-29-2014, 07:40 PM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

I have never had this experience

but quite frankly ... if it is happening enough for you to start a thread about it maybe they are on to something you should listen to
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Old 07-29-2014, 08:05 PM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Musos never tell me things like that after gigs. Occasionally when I've posted videos online people have suggested that I could work on my left wrist. It's a fair point - my left wrist has all the suppleness of a Thunderbirds puppet.

In a way, being criticised for one thing is a compliment. There's a lot of things that can be criticised in a performance - time, tightness, dynamics, feel, cycbal choices, drum tone and tuning (esp snare), setup, note choices, mechanics of movement, listening/responsiveness, etc.

So if someone criticises just one thing abut your gig, then that implicitly suggests that they think you're going okay in the other areas. If a muso in the audience has a shopping list of grievances about your playing then it's unlikely they'd say anything, rather than suggesting possible improvements to one or two areas.

Martha, given the above, I'm not convinced the amount of "helpful" feedback you're receiving is due to gender. Maybe it's a combination of being a woman, an inexperienced musician, and operating in a worship environment?
Suppleness of a Thinderbird puppet....LOL Grea that's golden.

But Thinderbirds are GO......F.A.B :)

But more OT,yeah chivalry isn't dead,and along with opening doors and standing up when a woman enters a room,comes with the attitude that mes are superior to women,especially in the work place.This also seems to apply,when we have threads about female drummers here.Some of these women are personally strong individuals,who believe in themselves,and can wipe the floor with many male drummers,on every level there is.

That attitude aseems to apply ato other instruments as well,like guitar and bass,but not chello or violin.That's a bit strange to me,as is any gender discriniation.I've worked with female cops,that were twice the cop, as some of the men I worked with.

The analogy would be,"it's not the size of the dog in the foght,it's the size of the fight in the dog."I mean no disrespect,and am not infering anyone here is og any canine species,but the lesson certainly applies.

Steve B
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Old 07-29-2014, 08:27 PM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

Do you have a current teacher or or have you spent time with one?

We all have things to work on and you've acknowledged the fact that you have stuff to work on.

When I first began gigging back around 1984, some experienced drummers came up to me and offered me unsolicited advice on how I could improve. Looking back - almost everything they said was true. I needed a lot of work (still do in fact).

My teachers - in addition to myself - were / are the harshest critics. Then again, I paid them for that - I didn't pay them to stroke my ego (they crushed it in seconds).

Believe me, I've seen many local drummers (of all genders) I'd love to offer unsolicited advice like you're receiving. I'm not their teacher but if I were I'd work on improving some of this stuff. Since I'm not their teacher - I say nothing.

On this musical journey, many of us improve anyways as time goes along. Then again, I've seen many who play no better today than they did 15 years ago.

I'll just keep on trying to be one of those wanna-be jazz people as long as I'm able to continue to hone my craft.

By the way - gender aside - I would of typed the same thing.
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Old 07-29-2014, 08:33 PM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

Picturing the person as physically aged to what my assessment of their mental age indicates always helps me avoid annoyance.

Pundit: "You use to many cymbals".

Me: "Who's a cute little fella? YOUR a cute little fella..."

-turn to the woman with him-

Me:"How old is he?...he's adorable!"
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Old 07-29-2014, 08:45 PM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto View Post
Picturing the person as physically aged to what my assessment of their mental age indicates always helps me avoid annoyance.

Pundit: "You use to many cymbals".

Me: "Who's a cute little fella? YOUR a cute little fella..."

-turn to the woman with him-

Me:"How old is he?...he's adorable!"
Sorry, but this approach may result in a punch in the face at some clubs/bars.
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Old 07-30-2014, 01:44 AM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

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Originally Posted by Mad About Drums View Post
Nope... You haven't my dear friend, it's just my dry sense of humour :)
Haha - that was dry! I am so used to getting in trouble for some accidental foot-in-mouth behaviour that it always seems possible :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamadrm View Post
Suppleness of a Thunderbird puppet....LOL Grea that's golden.

But Thinderbirds are GO......F.A.B :)
I was looking at that drumcam I posted a while ago and my left hand and arm looked like a puppet lol.

In the end it really depends on the feedback and how it's given. It might be useful, or not.
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Old 07-30-2014, 02:00 AM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

It's really kind of simple, if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all. It's kind of rude to point out things that weren't asked to be pointed out. Especially after Martha played all night for them. It's just bad manners. They could have just as easily pointed out stuff they liked, but this isn't that type of person we're dealing with right? When someone points out something "bad".... that sort of implies that the "pundit" (thanks Otto) is "better" at whatever is being pointed out.

It's best to not sink to their level but just once I'd love to hear someone dress a guy like this down. Like so I play all night for you and THIS is what you tell me? You're pointing out my faults? Does that make you feel big? Like a real man? Well does it? Punk?
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Old 07-30-2014, 02:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
It's really kind of simple, if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all. It's kind of rude to point out things that weren't asked to be pointed out. Especially after Martha played all night for them. It's just bad manners. They could have just as easily pointed out stuff they liked
Still, I think it depends on the feedback, Lar. Knowledge does not always come wrapped in good manners. Think of BBT - nerds are famous for undeveloped social skills.

Best to judge each piece of feedback on its merits IMO.
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Old 07-30-2014, 02:57 AM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto View Post
Picturing the person as physically aged to what my assessment of their mental age indicates always helps me avoid annoyance.

Pundit: "You use to many cymbals".

Me: "Who's a cute little fella? YOUR a cute little fella..."

-turn to the woman with him-

Me:"How old is he?...he's adorable!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by opentune View Post
Sorry, but this approach may result in a punch in the face at some clubs/bars.
Absolutely.

There's a difference between "to" and "too", and between "your" and "you're". That kind of word crime is just inviting robust entertainment.

Last edited by JustJames; 07-30-2014 at 05:24 AM.
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Old 07-30-2014, 03:03 AM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Still, I think it depends on the feedback, Lar. Knowledge does not always come wrapped in good manners. Think of BBT - nerds are famous for undeveloped social skills.

Best to judge each piece of feedback on its merits IMO.
IDK it seems like if it's the first time I'm saying something to someone, I'm not going to point out faults. Right there... that makes me think anyone who would do that.... they must lack certain basic manners, which also makes me think that I probably wouldn't value their opinion. Unless I know beforehand that they are a great player. But what great player is going to tear you down the first time they speak with you?

If the person is asked by the drummer what they thought....then that's different. Still pointing out the positive first, before getting into the negative, is a kind way to do it.

Basic friggin manners and respect lol.
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Old 07-30-2014, 04:50 AM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

Lar, you are not suited to the military.

Sargeant Major: "Private Ace! Atten-tion!"

Larry: "Hey! What about some frickin manners? I'd do it if you asked nicely, man, but I'm not standing to attention for some frickin Nazi!".

:)
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Old 07-30-2014, 05:21 AM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

You guys have left some VERY interesting ideas! Just a little more info..
-I've only played a few gigs the past year, and have been playing on my church worship team for about 3 years.. currently in 2 classic rock bands that gig private parties some and festivals..
-The first time I got really annoyed with a guy was my first gig with one of my bands.. first thing this guy did as we were setting up was come up to me and say "Hey, do you mind me playing your drums some?"... I said "You can take a look at them, are you a drummer?" and he said "yea".. then he asked our lead guy if he could sit on on some songs.. we were getting paid and our guy said "No, maybe next time"... by the end of the gig he had told my husband that my drums were out of tune, and told our lead guy that we'd never be invited back (he was a cook at the country club we were at). Turned out we learned that he was known to "not be all there".

-The second time was this last weekend when my group went the day before the gig to check out equipment.. the sound guy was there and he had volunteered his drums to be the ones used by our band and by another that we were alternating with. Well, I took one look at his drums and said "I really appreciate it, but I'm used to my drums and I'll bring them... the other guy will think they're fine (they're Ludwig Classic Maple John Bonham sizes, and his looked like a 70's Pearl Forum set that had original heads and rusty stands, old, old cymbals, etc...). They were going to record our session so I wanted us to sound as good as we could. Well, I could tell that he was offended right-off. So at the end of the thing, that's when he got his licks in by criticizing my kit and my playing.

So with these 2 things happening pretty close together, and in the first year that I'm in bands, it's made me wonder if this kind of behavior is a common thing towards musicians... Maybe I'm just "LUCKY"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)
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Old 07-30-2014, 05:55 AM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

Looks like you're just "lucky", Martha. You ran into a right pair of pushy, selfish blighters right there.

The problem here is not the criticism - that's just their weapon - it's them trying to pressure you to do their bidding and you standing up for your rights. The first guy especially sounds like a toxic personality.

Nobody should try to horn in on someone's gig like that - he obviously doesn't have a clue.
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Old 07-30-2014, 05:57 AM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

I'm with Larry on this one. If you feel the need to go up to a drummer and criticize their playing that says more about you than the drummer. The two guys Martha is talking about are clearly douches. Learning something from the critique doesn't change the fact that it's rude. Lots of people are full of themselves and full of something else I won't mention.
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Old 07-30-2014, 09:12 AM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
The problem here is not the criticism - that's just their weapon - it's them trying to pressure you to do their bidding and you standing up for your rights.
^^^ Absolutely this. How very dare they.
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Old 07-30-2014, 12:03 PM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

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Originally Posted by STXBob View Post
There's a barely visible smiley there. :-D

Ms Martha (forgive me if I presume erroneously that Martha is your real name), I agree with the other commenters that sexism is likely playing a role. For that, I apologize. Mansplaining is never acceptable. I applaud you for daring to take up an overwhelmingly male musical pursuit. Drumming isn't easy in the first place, and being a woman in a male-dominated demographic is almost always awful for the woman.

I wish you every success! I have no solution other than a knee to the groin of the worst offenders. Though I suspect that doesn't exactly fit in with your Christian philosophy, I assure you it is remarkably effective. ;-)
My bold; thanks for that! That's a great one and never heard it before, I'll store it away for future use!
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Old 07-30-2014, 12:31 PM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
I dunno man, have you ever tried to get a good dinner roll going on the kit? Doesn't work so well, regardless of genre.
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  #38  
Old 07-30-2014, 01:44 PM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

Having read your stories now, Martha, I agree that the men in question were, without fear of contradiction, complete douchecannons.

I maintain, however, that they wouldn't have practiced such blatant anal haberdashery if you have "outie" plumbing instead of "innie."

I'm with wossname up-thread: "Ooo, aren't you PRECIOUS!" He's welcome to take a swing at me. I've been swung on by douchecannons before. ;-) I don't recommend YOU do that, Martha, unless you've been practicing that knee to the groin.

Here's an idea. Feign appreciation. "Oh, wow! Thanks for the excellent advice! Here, let me give you a hug!" When you're hugging him, you have him right where you want him. In fact, you can actively pull him downwards, so you increase the transfer of force between your knee and his groinal area.

Can you tell I don't like people like that?
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Old 07-30-2014, 01:58 PM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

ah, the old "let me sit in for a couple songs" bit. lol, It used to happen to me a lot back in the day. Unless you know the person, the answer is always got to be no! Even so, one band I used to play in, the bass player was always inviting guys up to sit in with us for a song, singers, guitarists, drummers.

Sometimes you'll get the local bar hero drummer, who tries to pressure you into letting him play, sometimes with a group of drunken buddies. Still the answer needs to be a polite, but firm no, or else you need to get a beater kit and cymbals for gigging, and leave the good stuff at home.
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Old 07-30-2014, 05:50 PM
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Default Re: Leave Me Alone, rant 2

I love you guys... thanks for taking the time to give me some wise, and quite humorous responses! I'll let you know if I continue to be "lucky", and I'll definitely take some of your advice to practice (no out-ie here).
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