Technique/Grip Issue - Knuckle

[jamianillustration]

Hi all.

So I just realized that the standard grip is in fact with the stick held between the thumb and the index finger at the FIRST knuckle (counting from tip).

I hold mine at the second knuckle.

I can move it over to the first knuckle, but it feels akward, I do not have as good of control, and as soon as I have to play something loud or complicated, the stick slides down to my second knuckle.

Is there any reason I shouldn't just stick with MY grip? I am concerned that holding at the second knuckle is bad technique/will lead to physical problems/will limit speed, but it is much more comfortable for me and I get a lot more power out of my stroke.

Also, if everyone feels I should learn to hold it like "everyone" else does, does anyone have any tips on how to re-learn how to hold sticks? I've been playing this way since I started and for many years.

Thanks.

[mr_hayward_99]

on billy wards dvd big time he says he hold the stick like u describe because he can get more power andspeed on things like double stroke rolls

[jamianillustration]

So is there any harm in continuing with this grip?

Should I take the time and effort to retrain myself to hold like most of the greats do? I see Steve Smith analyze technique to the point of a science, and I can't help but feel like I won't be able to meet that level if I'm learning with a grip that has limitations. But does it?

[Michael G]

Originally Posted by jamianillustration

Hi all.

So I just realized that the standard grip is in fact with the stick held between the thumb and the index finger at the FIRST knuckle (counting from tip).

I hold mine at the second knuckle.

I can move it over to the first knuckle, but it feels akward, I do not have as good of control, and as soon as I have to play something loud or complicated, the stick slides down to my second knuckle.

Is there any reason I shouldn't just stick with MY grip? I am concerned that holding at the second knuckle is bad technique/will lead to physical problems/will limit speed, but it is much more comfortable for me and I get a lot more power out of my stroke.

Also, if everyone feels I should learn to hold it like "everyone" else does, does anyone have any tips on how to re-learn how to hold sticks? I've been playing this way since I started and for many years.

Thanks.

Nope, there is not one good reason. Switch to the correct grip now, you will get use to it, it just takes time. Even though you have quite alot of playing time in your bad technique, you must fix it. It takes 30 days of consistent work to break a bad habit.

This will be hard, trust me breaking habits is the toughest thing in the world, drumming or not. Do not let yourself slip back into the way you are use to playing, it will all benefit you in the long run.

[skaman]

I agree with Smoothjazz. Do it as soon as possible. I also had same issue. I needed around a week to get used to first knuckle but in my band it took arround a month to break the habbit and to get used to new feeling. You will be able to apply fingers more efectively on the first knuckle. Consider gripping stick between midle finger and thumb too. This aproch is even more loose. I use both. When I play with wrists i use midle, when I need fingers i switch to first knucle of index finger. I learnt that from Dave Weckel's video Natural Evolution 1. Diferent grips for diferent situations. Sometimes your current grip can come handy too. Don't limit your self. Learn all of the grips.

Have nice time.

[samthebeat]

It's not wrong to grip in the second the second knuckle. It is not wrong to grip with the back fingers. It all depends on what your trying to do.

Finger conrol is more efficient when griping with the first, becuase you have more fingers to use. How ever it is constrictive when playing big back beats because it is quite tight and hard to be loose with, so you need to learn to use both. I think you will find this happens natrually though, it did with me, I allways gripped with the second until I started learning finger control, when i started learning it it felt naturual to grip with the first nuckle. However when playing backbeats I grip with second, and anything that does'nt involve speed.

[JWM]

If you watch a player like Mike Mangini (world's fastest hands), you'll notice he almost always grips at the first knuckle... and he can smack the heck out of his drums with it.

I personally recommend developing the grip at the first knuckle with the "3 point fulcrum" approach. I find it helps to keep the hand relaxed and smooth. You have a nice opening in the hand which helps you to avoid tendinitis and other issues.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

The way Dom Famularo explained it to me is that the first knuckle fulcrum (he calls it the control grip) does give more control, and it is also the classically taught technique. When we play faster and/or louder, the stick will want to slide up one knuckle, to the second knuckle. Dom calls this the power grip. As you play loud, then soft, then fast etc, the stick will shift naturally between the positions. Hope this clears it up a bit. DPS

[JWM]

Originally Posted by DrPowerStroke

The way Dom Famularo explained it to me is that the first knuckle fulcrum (he calls it the control grip) does give more control, and it is also the classically taught technique. When we play faster and/or louder, the stick will want to slide up one knuckle, to the second knuckle. Dom calls this the power grip. As you play loud, then soft, then fast etc, the stick will shift naturally between the positions. Hope this clears it up a bit. DPS

This is true for the index finger... however, I think it is generally a good idea to keep the middle finger in first knuckle position. You don't want to wrap it around too much and squeeze too tight, because (at least in my experience) the stick will slip from the thumb and index. It also strains the hand and limits the stick's range of motion.

Again, using Mangini as an example, he seems to almost always have the stick positioned at the first knuckle... and he flies around the kit and really lays into it--

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wz_L0wlLcVM

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Originally Posted by JWM

This is true for the index finger... however, I think it is generally a good idea to keep the middle finger in first knuckle position. You don't want to wrap it around too much and squeeze too tight, because (at least in my experience) the stick will slip from the thumb and index. It also strains the hand and limits the stick's range of motion.

Again, using Mangini as an example, he seems to almost always have the stick positioned at the first knuckle... and he flies around the kit and really lays into it--

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wz_L0wlLcVM

I don't ever think about the middle finger. It is relaxed around the stick. Get Dom's book, he explains it very well in there. And we can discuss grips all day but really, it is not that mysterious: look at your hand in its relaxed state, and try not to mess this natural state of affairs up too much for too long at a time. After hearing at least a dozen very strong opinions on it (yes, my own included), that is my take away message. DPS

[k3ng]

Hmmm i've never actually paid attetion to my knuckle before.. i just had to take my stick and check and here's what i found out.

when i play in more french grippy position it goes to the first knuckle.. and then when i go into a more german grippy position it goes into the second knuckle..

so.... anything wrong here? I feel fine I guess.. no hand pains no technical difficulties... been playing this way for about 5 years i guess... but more so when i did alot of double stroke work a little over 2 years ago. So, with that background info, correct me if i'm wrong...

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Originally Posted by k3ng

Hmmm i've never actually paid attetion to my knuckle before.. i just had to take my stick and check and here's what i found out.

when i play in more french grippy position it goes to the first knuckle.. and then when i go into a more german grippy position it goes into the second knuckle..

so.... anything wrong here? I feel fine I guess.. no hand pains no technical difficulties... been playing this way for about 5 years i guess... but more so when i did alot of double stroke work a little over 2 years ago. So, with that background info, correct me if i'm wrong...

If you really want to spend time on the very fine details of hand mechanics, like I did with Dom, then get his book and if at all possible, take lessons with him. If you feel fine, then just play. What knuckle your stick goes to is determined by what volume and speed you are at. That is, if your hand is relaxed. If so, then you are probably fine. DPS

[JWM]

Originally Posted by DrPowerStroke

I don't ever think about the middle finger. It is relaxed around the stick. Get Dom's book, he explains it very well in there. And we can discuss grips all day but really, it is not that mysterious: look at your hand in its relaxed state, and try not to mess this natural state of affairs up too much for too long at a time. After hearing at least a dozen very strong opinions on it (yes, my own included), that is my take away message. DPS

I've looked through Dom's book, and while there is valuable information, I don't feel it's the final word. Personally, I've never thought he has terrific technique. He tends to stick out his pinky, and this is really not a good idea as it causes strain (try making a fist and sticking out your pinky while keeping the fist).

I studied with Rick Steed, a student of Murray Spivack's in California, and Murray's concepts are the source of technique for players such as David Garibaldi, Vinnie, Chad Wackerman, Louie Bellson and other fine players. The grip (for matched) has the fulcrum in the middle finger in first knuckle position (or in between the first and second knuckle for more power). The ring and pinky lightly curl around the stick and do NO gripping (and the pinky NEVER sticks out). It can apply to Moeller and/or Gladstone (although it's best suited for Moeller).

Check out Chuck Silverman's page... he was a student of Spivack as well--

http://chucksilverman.com/technique.html

Mangini also uses a matched grip that is in-line with these concepts, so I'd encourage exploring them.

[jamianillustration]

Well thanks for all the replies. I'm still not sure what I should do. Half of you guys think the classic first knuckle aproach is superior. Half of you say to do what feels right.

Anyway, I just watched the new Tony Royster Jr. video here on drummerworld, and he has the exact same grip as me (though my traditional is a little better ;)). He plays fast enough for me. I'm thinking I might take the time to learn the classic grip, but I'm probably gonna stick with mine.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Originally Posted by JWM

IPersonally, I've never thought he has terrific technique. He tends to stick out his pinky, and this is really not a good idea as it causes strain

You make good points overall, and I am sure you are a great drummer and technically savvy. However, to say that one of the world's top clinicians' technique is " not terrific", and that his "pinky is sticking out", is strange. Dom is all about elimination of tension, and he has taught and perfected this for 30 years....so I think you may have him confused with someone else.
DPS

[jazzin']

Yeah, I really don't think there are many with better technique than Dom...to say he has bad technique is kind of ... odd.

To answer the question though, I would move the grip to the first knuckle. When I first started playing I held the stick in the second joint with most of my finger wrapped around the stick. When I started lessons it took a little while to fix but the benefits were huge. More control, less tension=more speed, more endurance.

Try and fix it, I say.

[JWM]

Originally Posted by DrPowerStroke

You make good points overall, and I am sure you are a great drummer and technically savvy. However, to say that one of the world's top clinicians' technique is " not terrific", and that his "pinky is sticking out", is strange. Dom is all about elimination of tension, and he has taught and perfected this for 30 years....so I think you may have him confused with someone else.
DPS

Dom's a wonderful guy, and an enthusiastic teacher. But I've seen his pinkies stick out on more than one occasion. This habit doesn't mean he can't teach good technique, but...

I just encourage you to look at other players such as Mangini and Garibaldi for examples of flawless hand technique.