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  #1  
Old 04-28-2015, 03:38 PM
Xioz Xioz is offline
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Default Mics, Mixers, and Live Sound

Hello everyone! I have a complex problem that I hope someone could point me in the right direction. Please assume I have zero experience with recording/live sound.

Just this past Sunday, my Worship Team Leader stopped me to let me know that he is going to propose a budget to have my kit completely enclosed and mic'd for our Sunday services. Up until now, I have been just on stage behind a plexiglass shield. He wants to try to control the volume a little more and be able to record. I told him that I would do some research.

I have a 7-piece kit with 4 cybals and hat. After a little research, I think I am going to go with the Samson 8-kit plus the Samson 3 pack of snare/tom mics. This will allow me to mic all my toms, bass, hi-hat, and snare (top and bottom), and have two overheads in the x/y setup. 11 mics in total

Which brings me to my delima... I am looking for a 12 channel mixer that will be cost efficient. I plan on keeping that near my kit so I have control over the sound, but then running the output to the main board. I also plan on running the monitor line into the last channel so that I can use the setup as an in ear monitor with headphones.

I hope I made sense and please tell me if I am trying to attain the impossible. I have had no experience with mixers so I don't even know if my idea is even possible. Thank you for your time.
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Old 04-28-2015, 05:26 PM
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BradGunnerSGT BradGunnerSGT is offline
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Default Re: Mics, Mixers, and Live Sound

Are you trying to mix yourself and send just a stereo Left/Right to the FOH engineer? That's probably not going to work out well, since what you want to hear and what the FOH engineer needs to be able to control within the room probably aren't going to be the same thing. There are drummers who do that, but as a drummer and a "sound guy" I wouldn't recommend it.

What you probably want is more control over your own sound in your monitors. If that is the case, then you can get a split snake (you plug your mics into the box and it has 2 sets of pigtails, one for your mixer and one for the FOH. This lets you control what you hear independently of what gets sent to the FOH.

The other option (depending on the mixer that you are going to use) is that if the mixer supports a line out on each channel, you can send line-level signals for each microphone to FOH. The cons of this (from the FOH perspective), is that he doesn't have control of the input gain from his position and if the signal is too hot (clipping out) he has to rely on you to adjust it. As long as you set a good level and don't mess with the input gain once you start playing, then this could work.
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Old 04-28-2015, 05:46 PM
Xioz Xioz is offline
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Default Re: Mics, Mixers, and Live Sound

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Originally Posted by BradGunnerSGT View Post
Are you trying to mix yourself and send just a stereo Left/Right to the FOH engineer? That's probably not going to work out well, since what you want to hear and what the FOH engineer needs to be able to control within the room probably aren't going to be the same thing. There are drummers who do that, but as a drummer and a "sound guy" I wouldn't recommend it.

What you probably want is more control over your own sound in your monitors. If that is the case, then you can get a split snake (you plug your mics into the box and it has 2 sets of pigtails, one for your mixer and one for the FOH. This lets you control what you hear independently of what gets sent to the FOH.

The other option (depending on the mixer that you are going to use) is that if the mixer supports a line out on each channel, you can send line-level signals for each microphone to FOH. The cons of this (from the FOH perspective), is that he doesn't have control of the input gain from his position and if the signal is too hot (clipping out) he has to rely on you to adjust it. As long as you set a good level and don't mess with the input gain once you start playing, then this could work.
First off, thank you for the info.

As for the FOH (I am guessing this is the person that sits at the sound board, again I am brand new to live sound), we have a few people that rotate out each week. Our main concern is that the main board has only 2 open channels at any give time. One is being used for a condenser mic that sits behind me and feeds into the in ear monitors ONLY, just so I can hear myself in my headphones. I really only have access to that channel on the main board. I thought it would be better for me to pre-mix the sound at my board and stereo line in to the channel
I already use for the one mic.

I figure that theoretically, he should be able to tweak the house sound as needed as if it was all coming from one mic. Granted there would need to be a lot of communication between us to make sure that everything sounds good on my end.

Also, is it possible to just plug one board into another? Again, I am completely green to live sound.
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Old 04-28-2015, 05:57 PM
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Matt Bo Eder Matt Bo Eder is offline
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Default Re: Mics, Mixers, and Live Sound

OK Mr. Green-to-live-sound:

First off, if this guy is proposing a budget to get you miced up, why are you having to be the one making the purchases and why is it your problem to pick the gear? The sound guy should have an idea of what he needs and how to make it happen.

Sorry - it's sort of a pet peeve of mine because your situation is not isolated. Lots of churches have people "rotate in and out" of the sound guy position because they all think it's not important to just have a real sound guy come in and do the work, so consequently, lots of churches have bad sound done by people who don't know what they're doing. So it's not personal. It's just frustrating - it's like people who spend a lot of money on their own wedding but forget to budget for a good photographer when they know that's what's gonna really matter after the whole party is done.

So I would suggest you get with your sound guy and let him take care of it. I would offer suggestions as a professional sound guy, but I have this feeling what you're asking and what the church are willing to do are two different things. So I would straighten that out first.
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Old 04-28-2015, 06:56 PM
Xioz Xioz is offline
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Default Re: Mics, Mixers, and Live Sound

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Originally Posted by Matt Bo Eder View Post
OK Mr. Green-to-live-sound:

First off, if this guy is proposing a budget to get you miced up, why are you having to be the one making the purchases and why is it your problem to pick the gear? The sound guy should have an idea of what he needs and how to make it happen.

Sorry - it's sort of a pet peeve of mine because your situation is not isolated. Lots of churches have people "rotate in and out" of the sound guy position because they all think it's not important to just have a real sound guy come in and do the work, so consequently, lots of churches have bad sound done by people who don't know what they're doing. So it's not personal. It's just frustrating - it's like people who spend a lot of money on their own wedding but forget to budget for a good photographer when they know that's what's gonna really matter after the whole party is done.

So I would suggest you get with your sound guy and let him take care of it. I would offer suggestions as a professional sound guy, but I have this feeling what you're asking and what the church are willing to do are two different things. So I would straighten that out first.
I wouldn't necissarily call it my 'problem' and I will not be doing the purchasing in the end. I am volunteering my time to do the research and gather as much information as possible before the decision is made. As I see it, the decision will affect the way I sound and more importantly what I can hear as I will be isolated from the rest of the band. Therefore, I want to make sure that it is done correctly.
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Old 04-28-2015, 07:05 PM
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Matt Bo Eder Matt Bo Eder is offline
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Default Re: Mics, Mixers, and Live Sound

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Originally Posted by Xioz View Post
I wouldn't necissarily call it my 'problem' and I will not be doing the purchasing in the end. I am volunteering my time to do the research and gather as much information as possible before the decision is made. As I see it, the decision will affect the way I sound and more importantly what I can hear as I will be isolated from the rest of the band. Therefore, I want to make sure that it is done correctly.
Then I would say it will be much better if the church invested in a bigger board and the sound guy is mixing the whole thing. That's what eventually will happen anyway. Having you in control doesn't make sense because you're in no position to hear what it sounds like in the house. What kind of board do they have now?
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Old 04-28-2015, 08:12 PM
Xioz Xioz is offline
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Default Re: Mics, Mixers, and Live Sound

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Originally Posted by Matt Bo Eder View Post
Then I would say it will be much better if the church invested in a bigger board and the sound guy is mixing the whole thing. That's what eventually will happen anyway. Having you in control doesn't make sense because you're in no position to hear what it sounds like in the house. What kind of board do they have now?
I will propose that idea, thank you. I don't know what board they have. I can find out Wednesday.

For the sake of argument, let's pretend they say no to a bigger board. What mixer would you recommend?

Furthermore, I am not too comfortable with someone controlling how I sound, to be honest, because I want to be able to control what I hear as well. I guess I don't understand why it is such a bad idea. It would be no different than when I played on electric drums. I would pre-mix the mics on my end, make sure I get the sound I want out of my drums, then send that to the main board. Then FOH could tweak my kit as a whole the way it sounds in house. Plus I would have the added benefit of having a channel dedicated to the rest of the band mix (via the monitor chanel coming from the main board).
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Old 04-29-2015, 02:26 AM
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Default Re: Mics, Mixers, and Live Sound

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xioz View Post
I will propose that idea, thank you. I don't know what board they have. I can find out Wednesday.

For the sake of argument, let's pretend they say no to a bigger board. What mixer would you recommend?

Furthermore, I am not too comfortable with someone controlling how I sound, to be honest, because I want to be able to control what I hear as well. I guess I don't understand why it is such a bad idea. It would be no different than when I played on electric drums. I would pre-mix the mics on my end, make sure I get the sound I want out of my drums, then send that to the main board. Then FOH could tweak my kit as a whole the way it sounds in house. Plus I would have the added benefit of having a channel dedicated to the rest of the band mix (via the monitor chanel coming from the main board).
If they say no to a bigger board, then there's no hope sound in that church will ever sound right. Granted, churches and volunteering services has started many a career in audio engineering, but it's also perpetuated this stereotype of the "dumb sound guy" that the professionals have to keep re-educating people about.

I say do not give them that option, and make their sound guy learn his craft so he can do a good job.

But for you, before you even buy anything, go out and find one of those Mackie owner's manuals on any one of their VLZ mixers. In it, they go over alot about live sound for the layman in an easily understood manner, and that'll get you started. You might even realize that if you're behind a partition, there's alot of magic you can do with only TWO mics.

Maybe you should hire a professional to come in and evaluate what it is you guys are already doing too. And get pointed in the right direction.
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Old 04-29-2015, 03:45 AM
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konaboy konaboy is offline
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Default Re: Mics, Mixers, and Live Sound

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Bo Eder View Post
If they say no to a bigger board, then there's no hope sound in that church will ever sound right. Granted, churches and volunteering services has started many a career in audio engineering, but it's also perpetuated this stereotype of the "dumb sound guy" that the professionals have to keep re-educating people about.

I say do not give them that option, and make their sound guy learn his craft so he can do a good job.

But for you, before you even buy anything, go out and find one of those Mackie owner's manuals on any one of their VLZ mixers. In it, they go over alot about live sound for the layman in an easily understood manner, and that'll get you started. You might even realize that if you're behind a partition, there's alot of magic you can do with only TWO mics.

Maybe you should hire a professional to come in and evaluate what it is you guys are already doing too. And get pointed in the right direction.
That's a great idea. Our church went through a change 4 years ago and we hired a company to come in and evaluate and recommend changes for our sound system. I will add that they made good changes and additions,(also went overboard in my book with what they sold us vs what we probably needed) however we still have issues with our "in and out" sound guys running the sound properly. I've addressed this with our worship director many times.

You will have to rely on someone else to control your sound. As a drummer you can't effectively control your live sound. You have absolutely no clue what the sound is actually like out front. You hear reflected sounds and if they put you in an ISO booth you'll have zero clue what it sounds like even if you are running in ears.

Like Bo mentioned, you can invest all the money you want into a system, mic's, instruments, sound boards but if they guy running them doesn't have the proper training then none of that will matter.
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  #10  
Old 04-29-2015, 04:23 AM
Xioz Xioz is offline
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Default Re: Mics, Mixers, and Live Sound

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Bo Eder View Post
If they say no to a bigger board, then there's no hope sound in that church will ever sound right. Granted, churches and volunteering services has started many a career in audio engineering, but it's also perpetuated this stereotype of the "dumb sound guy" that the professionals have to keep re-educating people about.

I say do not give them that option, and make their sound guy learn his craft so he can do a good job.

But for you, before you even buy anything, go out and find one of those Mackie owner's manuals on any one of their VLZ mixers. In it, they go over alot about live sound for the layman in an easily understood manner, and that'll get you started. You might even realize that if you're behind a partition, there's alot of magic you can do with only TWO mics.

Maybe you should hire a professional to come in and evaluate what it is you guys are already doing too. And get pointed in the right direction.
I completely understand where you are coming from and truly appreciate the advice. I will take this into consideration.
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  #11  
Old 04-29-2015, 04:27 AM
Xioz Xioz is offline
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Default Re: Mics, Mixers, and Live Sound

Quote:
Originally Posted by konaboy View Post
That's a great idea. Our church went through a change 4 years ago and we hired a company to come in and evaluate and recommend changes for our sound system. I will add that they made good changes and additions,(also went overboard in my book with what they sold us vs what we probably needed) however we still have issues with our "in and out" sound guys running the sound properly. I've addressed this with our worship director many times.

You will have to rely on someone else to control your sound. As a drummer you can't effectively control your live sound. You have absolutely no clue what the sound is actually like out front. You hear reflected sounds and if they put you in an ISO booth you'll have zero clue what it sounds like even if you are running in ears.

Like Bo mentioned, you can invest all the money you want into a system, mic's, instruments, sound boards but if they guy running them doesn't have the proper training then none of that will matter.
Adding it to the list, thank you all for the advice.
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