Practicing with Marching band sticks, or heavier in general

[Michael G]

My teacher told me to practice with marching band sticks to help develop my hands a few months ago and I have been doing that since. (Those metal speed builders are like $44. While they do work, I feel as though I have better control on the bigger fatter marching band sticks then my regular 5As or any other.

Should I continue practicing with the big'uns or just stick to my normal sticks?

[vadrum]

i use both. sometimes i practice w/ larger sticks, sometimes i use smaller 5as or 7as or jojo mayers' sticks just to break monotony. plus, its helpful if you routinely switch stick sizes from situation to situation.

[maddrummr]

I dont use heavy sticks because too build speed...ill just turn up the metronome.
WHY? you ask...
I already have my feel for the sticks I use and I know what i can do with them. If i switch to a heavier stick my technique will change and alter to counter the heavier stick. Im sure practicing with heavier sticks works for some...but I tried and was not comfortible. I also use the HQ RealFeel double sided pad and use the side that gives me less rebound to build up my rudiments and such.

Just my 2 cents.

[Pete Stoltman]

Playing with marching sticks is really good if you're playing in marching band or drum corps. If not I suggest you limit the amount of time you spend working out with the logs. Why train your muscles to respond to something that is not what you are going to use in a "real world" situation? This is another example of what I referred to in the post about shortcuts to good technique. Other than a short term use I fail to see much value in continued practice with sticks that are not what you use in an actual playing situation.

[hungrypo]

i do about an hour of rudiments/night with marching sticks on a practice pad. i have been for just under a year and i feel they've really helped my technique. they helped me isolate the muscles in use from the muscles at rest, and given me greater efficiency of motion. they helped me to focus on the fulcrum and how to manipulate it consistently. you'll find that practicing with marching sticks will help you use ANY type of stick more effectively such as brushes, rods, or mallets.

i came to use marching sticks on the advice of a teacher. i sought out this teacher in an effort to get my rudiments together and the first thing he told me to do was to use marching sticks. i felt the benefit almost immediately and have stuck with them. my teacher also warned me to never use marching sticks on the kit. they can damage the heads and cymbals, and its not good on your wrists to whip them around like that. so only on the pad.

[h3r3tic]

I find practsing with heavier sticks really cool.

The funny thing that happened was that I used to play with 7a, latter to 5a and was really confortable for a big while. But after I saw Johnny Rabb's 30 days to better hands and a small video about Tony Royster explaining how to develop speed and suggesting to practise with heavier sticks I've decided to play with some 2b's and I have to say... THEY RULE!!!

Now I don't want to play with 5a's anymore, I'm so confortable with the 2b's. They feel much more confortable!!!

Heavier sticks rule!!!

[n2xlr8n]

Originally Posted by Pete Stoltman

Playing with marching sticks is really good if you're playing in marching band or drum corps. If not I suggest you limit the amount of time you spend working out with the logs. Why train your muscles to respond to something that is not what you are going to use in a "real world" situation? This is another example of what I referred to in the post about shortcuts to good technique. Other than a short term use I fail to see much value in continued practice with sticks that are not what you use in an actual playing situation.

You have ESPN, lol. This is almost exactly what I was thinking.

I'm in the basic rudimental-learning stage now. If I try to use anything other than the sticks I normally play with, I go backwards.

IMO, playing for extended periods on the kit, with the equipment you intend to use, is the best practice. There are no shortcuts.

Except the Gripmaster. ; ) j/k

SRJ

[Pete Stoltman]

Originally Posted by hungrypo

i do about an hour of rudiments/night with marching sticks on a practice pad. i have been for just under a year and i feel they've really helped my technique. they helped me isolate the muscles in use from the muscles at rest, and given me greater efficiency of motion. they helped me to focus on the fulcrum and how to manipulate it consistently. you'll find that practicing with marching sticks will help you use ANY type of stick more effectively such as brushes, rods, or mallets.

.

Why can't you get those same benefits using traditional concert or set sized sticks? What is it about the big sticks that does this? I'm not trying to be a jerk but I just don't see why some people think they need to use implements other than what they play with to acheive some kind of technical facility. If you can answer these questions for me maybe I will have a better understanding of what you're talking about.

1) What do you mean they help isolate the muscles in rest from the muscles in motion? Why can't you isolate those muscles with a traditional sized stick.

2) Define what you mean by efficiency of motion and again what is it about marching sticks that you can't get with trad sized sticks?

I understand what you mean about helping to focus on the fulcrum but I certainly wouldn't think that would be something you have to continue to use the heavier sticks for after getting your fulcrum position down.

FYI I have played in marching band and drum corps (ok it was like a million years ago) and have a great appreciation for the style. I still practice rudiments daily but do it with 5A sticks. I still have a pair of corps sticks and drag them out from time to time just for kicks but I find absolutely no real world benefit in long term practice with them.

[Dimroc]

Practicing with Corpsmasters or similar-style beefy sticks is probably going to be more efficient for building chops. I believe practicing the PASIC rudiments and their ilk with tree trunks brought quicker results for me. Also, for all you folk who preach adaptability, why shouldn't you practice with bigger sticks? It's just another situation for your hands to adapt to. This is not to say practice all the time with them, then do your shows with 5a's. That'd be silly.

[Pete Stoltman]

[quote=Dimroc;261893]Practicing with Corpsmasters or similar-style beefy sticks is probably going to be more efficient for building chops. QUOTE]

Why????

Heavy sticks will give more rebound. If you want to build up your chops I think the opposite could just as easily be said. Working with light sticks makes you work harder and consequently "build your chops" faster. It's not the sticks that make you better it's the hand development.

[LinearDrummer]

[quote=Pete Stoltman;261920]

Originally Posted by Dimroc

Practicing with Corpsmasters or similar-style beefy sticks is probably going to be more efficient for building chops. QUOTE]

Why????

Heavy sticks will give more rebound. If you want to build up your chops I think the opposite could just as easily be said. Working with light sticks makes you work harder and consequently "build your chops" faster. It's not the sticks that make you better it's the hand development.

You nay be right but I have to disagree...

I played in a Pep Band last semester and the drumline guys had incredible technique...waaay better than me...They told me I needed to practice with the big sticks especially since I changed to traditional and need more strength with my left hand...

It seems to be working cause when I go back to 5a' s or 2b's they are so light and my speed seems to be getting better and left hand power is better...

Just my opinion....

[Dimroc]

Don't get me wrong. I'm agreeing with you that heavier sticks will not make you a drum god overnight. I think playing with heavier sticks is good to augment your playing and work up brute muscle strength. Throwing down meaty double stroke rolls with is tougher with big sticks, I don't care how much rebound you're getting. It takes more initial force to throw the stick into the head and it takes more muscle strength to properly control the rebound. And last I heard, making your hand muscles stronger never hurt anything (of course, this is presuming you are using proper techniques regardless of stick size).

[vadrum]

[quote=Pete Stoltman;261920]

Originally Posted by Dimroc

Practicing with Corpsmasters or similar-style beefy sticks is probably going to be more efficient for building chops. QUOTE]

Why????

Heavy sticks will give more rebound. If you want to build up your chops I think the opposite could just as easily be said. Working with light sticks makes you work harder and consequently "build your chops" faster. It's not the sticks that make you better it's the hand development.

not sure i understand how bigger sticks rebound MORE.....if that were true there wouldnt be a single drummer out there using small sticks.....

look the idea is the same as practicing w/ brushes, more resistance. i have a much harder time moving bigger sticks than i do tiny sticks. why? because they are bigger.

further, if i go out to sit in at someones gig im not garaunteed that im going to have a similar set of sticks as the ones i routinely use. i do not walk around town w/ my sticks tucked up my sleeve just in case i get a chance to play. it took me a long time to get used to having to deal w/ different sized sticks routinely and not feel uncomfortable. how did i overcome this? by using different size sticks within my practice regiment. i also wouldnt want to play a rock gig w/ 7a drumsticks, id rather bump up a size and not have to work so hard to get a bigger sound. as hard as i would have to play to keep up w/ the amps would lead to a lot of broken sticks.

this commitment to practicing w/ only sticks only at a pad or drum seems really silly to me when you have players like dennis chambers that stated he practiced rudiments on pillows to build chops, or alan dawson who religously practiced rudiments w/ brushes because it help to build his hands. jeff watts played 2 different size sticks on the tonight show for a long time, switching from 5as for jazz to 3as for funk. (and thats straight from his mouth, not second hand).

[Pete Stoltman]

Look guys, I'm not saying that you should only use one stick for everything all the time or any kind of nonsense like that. I carry a couple different sizes of sticks in my bag and use them as necessary for the job at hand. What I'm trying to get across is that several guys have stated that they are using the big sticks for practice in hopes of building chops. Ok fine, go ahead and I hope it works for you. My belief is that if you build your chops using the implements that you will most likely be using in real playing situations that you will have better long term results. Changing the tools to an extreme size change is in the long run just playing around with your muscle memory. Changing sizes from a 7A to a 5A is not a big stretch. Going from a 5A to a 3S is a huge difference. And yes, I understand the Chambers pillow thing etc. Make your hands work, that's the idea. If you want a good example I know guys who told me when they met Frank Arsenault he could play an even double stroke roll on an outstretched sheet of notebook paper (with marching sticks). Now that's some control.
Ok, I'm getting off topic here so I'll close this off and just say that the purpose of a forum like this is to offer a variety of views on drumming and techniques. So more power to you if that works but as for me I'll leave the corps sticks in the closet unless I get a jones for playing "Three Camps". Have fun.

[murphinelli]

When I was taking drum lessons about 25 years ago my teacher had me do the same thing. 2B's. I believe this stick size is easier to learn control with in the beginning. There is more momentum from throw & rebound due to the larger size/weight/length. I won't get into the physics equations for this....;-)

This big stick theory also applies to learning stick twirling techniques. The reasons are similar. It's much easier to spin/twirl a longer/larger stick than a smaller one. The angular momentum is greater (and more directed) and easier to control. Once you have the larger/longer stick twirling technique (control) down, twirling smaller/lighter sticks is easier. Easier than starting with the smaller sticks. See the stick twirling thread for recommendations on this...i.e. making your own long sticks out of dowel rods to practice with.

While I'm at it....this same strategy is used in boxing - speed bag size. Beginners are recommended to use the larger speed bag. Easier to control. Once again angular momentum. Once a beginner becomes proficient at controlling the big bag, he/she can move to the smaller bag that the pros use.

Anyways, I wonder how many instructors on this site recommend 2B's for their beginners?...I'm going to guess quite a few.

[sloppyn9ne]

wow you guys are really over analyzing the situation. Sticks are sticks. Either way your developing muscle. Some sticks are hevier than others. Thats kinda like only being able to work out with one weight for 30 years, it just doesnt work. Going from marching sticks to regular set sticks shouldnt be too "drastic of a change". And no if you have the right technique going from different stick size's shouldn't alternate your technique.

I could safely say that 90% of my chops on set came from marching band. And I can play just as fast with pretty much any size.

P.S: I dont mean to sound like a bragging ass**** but I mean its true.^^
and I'm sorry I can't spell good either.

[hungrypo]

Originally Posted by Pete Stoltman

Why can't you get those same benefits using traditional concert or set sized sticks? What is it about the big sticks that does this? I'm not trying to be a jerk but I just don't see why some people think they need to use implements other than what they play with to acheive some kind of technical facility. If you can answer these questions for me maybe I will have a better understanding of what you're talking about.

1) What do you mean they help isolate the muscles in rest from the muscles in motion? Why can't you isolate those muscles with a traditional sized stick.

2) Define what you mean by efficiency of motion and again what is it about marching sticks that you can't get with trad sized sticks?

I understand what you mean about helping to focus on the fulcrum but I certainly wouldn't think that would be something you have to continue to use the heavier sticks for after getting your fulcrum position down.

FYI I have played in marching band and drum corps (ok it was like a million years ago) and have a great appreciation for the style. I still practice rudiments daily but do it with 5A sticks. I still have a pair of corps sticks and drag them out from time to time just for kicks but I find absolutely no real world benefit in long term practice with them.

hey man..i'm not dogging anyone else's practice routine. all i'm saying is that i use marching sticks on the advice of a teacher, and i feel they help my technique. i dont think of them as a "shortcut", but rather an effective way to learn stick control. i still spend plenty of time with my 5B's. but i think its narrow-minded to think that only using one type of stick is the best way to learn to control. you should be equally able to express yourself rythmically with sticks, rods, mallets, brushes, using only your hands, etc. learing to find and manipulate the fulcrum of any "tool" is the name of the game.

[somedrummer]

I think it's just the idea that heavier weights build muscle faster. For example, if you were at the gym lifting weights. You are trying to get the most muscle for your time, so rather than grab 5 pound weights you grab 20 pounders. You will build muscle faster. I think we're just thinking along those lines, Pete.

[centralzeke]

Drumming is not like lifting weights..

[Pete Stoltman]

Originally Posted by hungrypo

hey man..i'm not dogging anyone else's practice routine. all i'm saying is that i use marching sticks on the advice of a teacher, and i feel they help my technique. i dont think of them as a "shortcut", but rather an effective way to learn stick control. i still spend plenty of time with my 5B's. but i think its narrow-minded to think that only using one type of stick is the best way to learn to control. you should be equally able to express yourself rythmically with sticks, rods, mallets, brushes, using only your hands, etc. learing to find and manipulate the fulcrum of any "tool" is the name of the game.

And I wasn't dogging yours I just asked you to explain what you meant by the statements in your post. If you really believe what you said and have a sound basis for stating those things you should be able to explain it. That's why I asked those specific questions. Maybe I'm all wet or missing something and asked if you could elaborate on your statements. Frankly I'm not sure that you believe what you said or just put something out there that sounded like it "should" make sense.
Further, I never said that you shouldn't be able to play with different implements or sticks of different sizes. You're putting something in there that was never stated. The whole point of this thread is that a belief exists that guys can learn to play better by using marching sized sticks for regular practice. I'm not convinced that this is true. You started to make some points but stopped short of following through.

[somedrummer]

Originally Posted by centralzeke

Drumming is not like lifting weights..

How so? We are trying to build muscles too. They happen to generally be smaller than the ones we lift weights for, but why should we not kill two birds with one stone, that is, drumming and lifting weights at the same time? Therefore, using heavier sticks (to build muscle, not all the time, of course) makes sense.

[somedrummer]

Originally Posted by Pete Stoltman

...a belief exists that guys can learn to play better by using marching sized sticks for regular practice. I'm not convinced that this is true...

I think what the original poster meant was that muscles are built faster when using heavier sticks, not that one can "learn to play better" with these sticks. I think this makes sense.

[Pete Stoltman]

Yeah he actually said to develop his hands. Guess that could be taken a couple different ways. I'm not really sure that we want to build up muscles in our hands ie: big muscles but to develop muscle control.

[Pete Stoltman]

In case anyone is interested I just received a pm from Hungrypro in which he gave some very well reasoned and thoughtful answers to the questions I alluded to in earlier posts. He has some good reasons behind the method he uses for practice with marching sticks. I can certainly respect that. I won't try to give you his answers but I hope he will take a couple minutes to explain what he does and why he does it.
This is what I really was getting at guys. Having a good reason for using a particular method and some results to back it up are valuable to us. Just saying "go practice with big sticks" has little value.
Thanks to Hungrypro for a good dialogue and being able to have a debate that stayed on point without personal attacks.

[hungrypo]

cheers Pete....here's the message i sent....

Hey Pete...

Your first question was about muscle isolation.

I find that using marching sticks helps me with isolating the muscles that are working from the muscles that are at rest. For instance, if i want to work out my fingers, I can really feel the weight of the stick being supported and manipulated with my fingers, and I find it easier to tell if I start cheating by using my wrist. Conversly if I'm working on wrist actions (like moeller or the free stroke) I find it easier to tell if I start cheating by using my fingers. Also I find it easier to tell where the tension is in my arm and upper body. If the motion is fluid and relaxed, the stick will bounce with minimal effort, even with a marching stick. Because a marching stick is so big, the motion is exaggerrated and I find that I can really tell when an aspect of the motion is flawed. It really helped me compare my left hand to my right. The right was moving very fluidly, the left not so much. When I use marching sticks it exaggerates the weaknesses in my left compared to my right and makes it easier for me to make adjustments.

Your second question was about efficiency of motion.

I find with marching sticks that, although they are heavier, I can bounce them pretty much as easily as my 5B's as long as i'm using "good technique". As my technique improves I find I'm using less and less effort to get the same results from the stick. I call this efficiency of motion. I'm not sure if you'll find that term in a drum instruction book, but that's what I'm calling it. The better I get at moving the marching stick with as little effort as possible, the better I get at moving the 5Bs with proportionately less effort.

If I can sum up the benefits of practicing with marching sticks is that they're like putting my technique under a magnifying glass. They exaggerate all aspects of my grip, finger, wrist, arm, and shoulder motions so that they can be fine tuned - like an artist would use a magnifying glass to apply some delicate shading to a drawing. I dont really use them to build speed or muscle. Most of the time when i do my practicing with them the metronome rarely goes above 80 bpm. Speed develops as a by-product of good technique, and I do believe that using marching sticks is an excellent way to build good technique. If you haven't tried it, I recommend you do. And if you have tried it and dont like it, well then there's not much else to say. i hope this answers your questions.

po

[Johnest]

I use heavier sticks (Vic Firth Thomas Lang model) from time to time. I generaly use them whem i try to learn a new hand pattern or when i work at some interdependency stuff. The weight of those sticks seems to help me a bit to concentrate on every movement on those kind of practice. But, as soon as i get comfortable with the movements, i switch to my lighter sticks.

[LinearDrummer]

Originally Posted by centralzeke

Drumming is not like lifting weights..

Yeah but you do have to develop strength in muscles...

[n2xlr8n]

For myself (and more than a few working folks), it comes down to time management.

If I had more than an hour/day to work solely on technique, I'd probably stray from the "beaten path", if for no other reason than to prevent boredom.

As it is, I have to practice in the method I actually play, unless it's pad time, in which case I try to emulate my kit setup.

SRJ

[abe]

Originally Posted by hungrypo

cheers Pete....here's the message i sent....

Hey Pete...

Your first question was about muscle isolation.

I find that using marching sticks helps me with isolating the muscles that are working from the muscles that are at rest. For instance, if i want to work out my fingers, I can really feel the weight of the stick being supported and manipulated with my fingers, and I find it easier to tell if I start cheating by using my wrist. Conversly if I'm working on wrist actions (like moeller or the free stroke) I find it easier to tell if I start cheating by using my fingers. Also I find it easier to tell where the tension is in my arm and upper body. If the motion is fluid and relaxed, the stick will bounce with minimal effort, even with a marching stick. Because a marching stick is so big, the motion is exaggerrated and I find that I can really tell when an aspect of the motion is flawed. It really helped me compare my left hand to my right. The right was moving very fluidly, the left not so much. When I use marching sticks it exaggerates the weaknesses in my left compared to my right and makes it easier for me to make adjustments.

Your second question was about efficiency of motion.

I find with marching sticks that, although they are heavier, I can bounce them pretty much as easily as my 5B's as long as i'm using "good technique". As my technique improves I find I'm using less and less effort to get the same results from the stick. I call this efficiency of motion. I'm not sure if you'll find that term in a drum instruction book, but that's what I'm calling it. The better I get at moving the marching stick with as little effort as possible, the better I get at moving the 5Bs with proportionately less effort.

If I can sum up the benefits of practicing with marching sticks is that they're like putting my technique under a magnifying glass. They exaggerate all aspects of my grip, finger, wrist, arm, and shoulder motions so that they can be fine tuned - like an artist would use a magnifying glass to apply some delicate shading to a drawing. I dont really use them to build speed or muscle. Most of the time when i do my practicing with them the metronome rarely goes above 80 bpm. Speed develops as a by-product of good technique, and I do believe that using marching sticks is an excellent way to build good technique. If you haven't tried it, I recommend you do. And if you have tried it and dont like it, well then there's not much else to say. i hope this answers your questions.

po

Thanks for you explenation. I felt these things but couldn't explain that so good. It's true! I'm not pro but as begginer it's really much more easy to cheat with light sticks that I mainly use in jazz than with 2B. I don't do any killer chops with them just slow free strokes. For me it's an easy way to remind perfect rebound feeling.

[Dispatched]

Hey what do you guys think about practicing with metal sticks, like solid aluminum that weigh 4 ounces each. Does anyone use metal sticks?

Also would practicing on pillows improve your technique even if you are trying to stick to the Free stroke?

[JWM]

I think this all depends on what your goals are. Everybody has a different reason for playing the drums.

Drummers such as Virgil Donati, Thomas Lang and Mike Mangini use a heavier stick. Mike Mangini broke the matched grip speed record with a heavier stick. You can be pretty certain that, if you want to achieve goals like that, a heavier stick doesn't hurt.

Personally, I love the good ol' Vic Firth "Rock" sticks.

[jazzin']

Great reply hungrypro. You articulated what everyone else thought.

On a side note, I think people are constantly confusing the issue of learning technique and actually applying that to the reason we play drums... to make music.

I find alot of people say things like 'we are not athletes', 'this is not a competition', 'we are playing music, not a sport' etc etc.

We all recognise that we do this for the music, well I hope we all do anyway, and the difference between playing music and learning the technique to play that music is really rather similar to the way a ... martial artist (or sprinter, boxer) might practice small techniques that make up one of his forms and then go out to do his whole form. He would not think of it as sport or a technical exercise, he thinks of it as his art or expression or performance much the same as any athlete. Now I'm the last person that would practice technique for techniques sake. I try to make everything I do as practical as possible with no extra techniques that I feel I would definately not use whilst playing.

We do, like anyone athlete or otherwise, have to tune our bodies and mind to a fine degree to be able to play at the top level of musicianship. To be able to immediately and without conscious thought express exactly what we hear in our heads is quite a feat really and as many people on here know takes an absolute multitude of hours to do and more than a lifetime to perfect.