why you should never leave your 'comfort zone'...

[T-1000]

Hi folks, I know you are meant to practice at a speed that is out of your 'comfort zone' - otherwise you would never improve - but, by definition, if you are out of your comfort zone, for, example, playing a single stroke roll, your technique probably won't be perfect, because you're not comfortable playing it at that speed.

So it seems to me, that either you play at speeds you're comfortable playing at, and therefore never get faster, or try to get faster, and end up playing with sloppy technique, so, eventually sloppy technique gets programmed into your 'muscle memory' - and, again, you don't get faster. A lose/lose situation, basically.

So, just exactly how are you meant to improve your speed?

[GRUNTERSDAD]

gradually...with a metronome, and in small increases. not from 100 to 160, but from 100 to 110 or 120. muscle memory is known as proprioception, and one thing that helps in the drumming world in audible reinforcement. Hearing the metronome and then hearing the drum strokes will help your overall memory improve. But again the main point here is to be gradual. Of course at first you will be a little sloppy. but dont continue playing when its sloppy. If your single strokes get sloppy after one minute stop and start over. They will eventually get better until they feel perfect then increase another 10 beats per minute. good luck.

[jonescrusher]

No, you're missing the point; you have to consistently 'leave' your comfort zone in order for your technique to improve and get rid of the sloppiness. Obviously, the first few times you exit the comfort zone you must expect to lose technique, but regular practice will increase tightness. Don't worry about sloppiness becoming ingrained through muscle memory - muscle memory occurs over the long term, not over a few practice sessions.
Ensure that you've set a bpm target that is realistic nad not too far outside of your comfort zone, and then persevere like never before. It's easy to lose heart quickly, so keep in mind that good technique takes months and years to accomplish. You may need to spend weeks on one bpm target.

On developing speed, I recommend looking into using rhythm scales (try the search function, although this is unlikely to work). I think looking at speed in terms of 'note density' rather than bpm is a more efficient method.

Good luck, and remember these things take years, not weeks to acheive.

[Drummer Karl]

Well...the thing is CONSISTENCE.
If you practice a single stroke roll or any excercice you should do it always in your comfort zone and when doing this, do it for more than 5 minutes! Do it for at least 10-15 minutes without big breaks (drinking, other work etc.).
You will improve your speed by practicing like this: in your comfort zone and consistenly!

That is how it works for me and I think for many others, too. Or?

Karl

[jonescrusher]

Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD

gradually...with a metronome, and in small increases. not from 100 to 160, but from 100 to 110 or 120. muscle memory is known as proprioception, and one thing that helps in the drumming world in audible reinforcement. Hearing the metronome and then hearing the drum strokes will help your overall memory improve. But again the main point here is to be gradual. Of course at first you will be a little sloppy. but dont continue playing when its sloppy. If your single strokes get sloppy after one minute stop and start over. They will eventually get better until they feel perfect then increase another 10 beats per minute. good luck.

I agree with taking small steps, in fact i'd recommend moving up in increments of 5 bpms. However, I disagree about stopping when things get sloppy. Certainly stop if muscles are tensing and strokes are approaching a complete breakdown, but stopping if you're falling out with the click will ensure no progress at all. Moving up in very small increments should mean this won't be a problem anyway. And i'm not sure muscle memory canstrictly be referred to as proprioception; proprioception is the brain's sixth sense that recognises the relative positions of the limbs, ensuring balance and coordination. Ok, sorry, i'm being a complete pedant;)

[n2xlr8n]

Originally Posted by jonescrusher

No, you're missing the point; you have to consistently 'leave' your comfort zone in order for your technique to improve and get rid of the sloppiness.

On developing speed, I recommend looking into using rhythm scales (try the search function, although this is unlikely to work). I think looking at speed in terms of 'note density' rather than bpm is a more efficient method.

Good luck, and remember these things take years, not weeks to acheive.

Great advice.

Being a "beginner" again when it comes to rudiments, I can't say enough about how well this has worked for me. Let's say I routinely practice SC at QTR=125, I'll practice the last 15 minutes (no breaks) at QTR=145.

For my last 10 minutes, I then use a standard QTR=80 note to increase the rhythm scale until I can't get any faster without tensing up. This has produce a dramatic increase in my cleanliness and speed (~45 bpm in 3 months, if you're curious).

SRJ

[jeffwj]

I think of it both ways:

1. Practicing outside your comfort zone for shorter periods of time (or maybe alternating between notes of a faster and slower rate) will get your hands used to the higher speeds. Your body will respond to the demands made on it as long as those demands are reasonable. This is the good thing about practicing outside your comfort zone.

2. Practicing inside your comfort zone for longer periods of time will increase your endurance. Remember that exercises like the Stone Killer were meant to be practiced 50 times each. This can be done at the top of the comfort zone to challenge your hands, but playing something that long outside your comfort zone can bring muscle tension which you don't want.

A balance between the two should provide a beneficial practice session.

Hope this helps,
Jeff

[wybasher]

Originally Posted by T-1000

...
So it seems to me, that either you play at speeds you're comfortable playing at, and therefore never get faster, or try to get faster, and end up playing with sloppy technique, so, eventually sloppy technique gets programmed into your 'muscle memory' - and, again, you don't get faster. A lose/lose situation, basically.

So, just exactly how are you meant to improve your speed?

You may be overthinking this but if you like dissecting your head then I offer the following notes. Others are free to disagree. If the information helps you, great; if not, throw it away.

If you think of music/drumming as a language of communication, then you don’t need to train in tiny gradual steps.

If you think of drumming as a skill, then perhaps the gradual progressive approach is the best for you.

To further explain communication as motivation…

Observe how a small child learns to speak. He’ll eventually learn to talk at 200 words-per-minute without bothering to sync his lips,tongue,lungs to utter syllables in time to a metronome. The motivation for the child is the immense need to communicate to his parents. His first attempts at saying the word “peanut butter” will be quite sloppy. It might start out as “pee bah” and then “penna budda”. But eventually, the child’s brain will then constantly correct the mechanical motions of his mouth until he’s able to tell his mother that he wants more food.

Observe how a small child learns to walk then run. He does not try to synchronize his leg movements of a metronome so that he can transition from walking to running. He intuitively figures out this transition (by trying to run and falling down on his ass a zillion times.) His motivation is that he sees a toy on the other side of the room and he wants to get from point A to point B as quickly as possible. Here’s an interesting thing… take a 20-year-old adult that has never sync’d his footsteps to a metronome and he’ll be able to do it on demand. Why is that?

As you already suspected, you’ll want to get out of your comfort zone. If your ears and brain are functioning properly, you’ll perceive that you sound sloppy and it will subconsciously correct your muscles motions until it creates the smooth speed your mind is craving. So one way to diagnose someone’s sloppiness is not to look at his hands…but instead to examine his head: can he actually hear and perceive his own sloppiness? Many drummers cannot, so they remain sloppy even if you alter the grip of the stick in their hand.

Try this mental experiment. Imagine you lost your voice and the only way you could communicate with the outside world was through your hands beating out drum patterns. So ordering a hamburger requires a 5-stroke roll at 160bpm. And asking a girl for date requires a 7-stroke roll at 200bpm. To dial a number on your phone would require a paradiddle at a 100bpm. If the motivation was this critical to living, you’d learn quite a bit in short amount of time. You probably wouldn’t wait around increasing the metronome from 80 to 90 to 100, etc. You need the hamburger today or you’ll starve to death.

Likewise, two guys are trying to learn Spanish. One guy is using it to eventually ask a beautiful girl out. The other is trying to get a good grade on a foreign language test. Their motivations are different. You can guess which will be more effective.

I find metronomes very helpful for locking down and practicing extended grooves. But have not found them helpful for dramatically increasing rapid-fire coordinated speed (such as single strokes between the hands).

Others have suggested a blended approach with gradual and not gradual. That’s probably another good approach.

[wybasher]

Originally Posted by jeffwj

I think of it both ways:

Love your answers...

Seems like you're an excellent teacher with an open mind.

[vadrum]

one of the best peices of advice i ever read w/ regards to increasing speed came from the former drummer from pantera (whose name is escaping me @ this time).

he was trying to build speed w/ single stroke rolls on the double bd pedal. he took a metronome and started at a nice slow tempo he could control (say 60 bpm) and then he would practice playing RLRL on the double pedal for an interval of time (perhaps repeated a few times) @ one tempo each day. he continued to do this for a year until he built his speed up to his current ability.

this is a great way to build speed and control. slow and steady covering pretty much every possible tempo. if you have the patience and are not worried about the amount of time you have to make progress, then this approach could work for you.

[jonescrusher]

Originally Posted by wybasher

You may be overthinking this but if you like dissecting your head then I offer the following notes. Others are free to disagree. If the information helps you, great; if not, throw it away.

If you think of music/drumming as a language of communication, then you don’t need to train in tiny gradual steps.

If you think of drumming as a skill, then perhaps the gradual progressive approach is the best for you.

To further explain communication as motivation…

Observe how a small child learns to speak. He’ll eventually learn to talk at 200 words-per-minute without bothering to sync his lips,tongue,lungs to utter syllables in time to a metronome. The motivation for the child is the immense need to communicate to his parents. His first attempts at saying the word “peanut butter” will be quite sloppy. It might start out as “pee bah” and then “penna budda”. But eventually, the child’s brain will then constantly correct the mechanical motions of his mouth until he’s able to tell his mother that he wants more food.

Observe how a small child learns to walk then run. He does not try to synchronize his leg movements of a metronome so that he can transition from walking to running. He intuitively figures out this transition (by trying to run and falling down on his ass a zillion times.) His motivation is that he sees a toy on the other side of the room and he wants to get from point A to point B as quickly as possible. Here’s an interesting thing… take a 20-year-old adult that has never sync’d his footsteps to a metronome and he’ll be able to do it on demand. Why is that?

As you already suspected, you’ll want to get out of your comfort zone. If your ears and brain are functioning properly, you’ll perceive that you sound sloppy and it will subconsciously correct your muscles motions until it creates the smooth speed your mind is craving. So one way to diagnose someone’s sloppiness is not to look at his hands…but instead to examine his head: can he actually hear and perceive his own sloppiness? Many drummers cannot, so they remain sloppy even if you alter the grip of the stick in their hand.

Try this mental experiment. Imagine you lost your voice and the only way you could communicate with the outside world was through your hands beating out drum patterns. So ordering a hamburger requires a 5-stroke roll at 160bpm. And asking a girl for date requires a 7-stroke roll at 200bpm. To dial a number on your phone would require a paradiddle at a 100bpm. If the motivation was this critical to living, you’d learn quite a bit in short amount of time. You probably wouldn’t wait around increasing the metronome from 80 to 90 to 100, etc. You need the hamburger today or you’ll starve to death.

Likewise, two guys are trying to learn Spanish. One guy is using it to eventually ask a beautiful girl out. The other is trying to get a good grade on a foreign language test. Their motivations are different. You can guess which will be more effective.

I find metronomes very helpful for locking down and practicing extended grooves. But have not found them helpful for dramatically increasing rapid-fire coordinated speed (such as single strokes between the hands).

Others have suggested a blended approach with gradual and not gradual. That’s probably another good approach.

But of course the fine muscle memory and motor control required to improve hands speed is quite distinct from the predispositions the human brain has for proprioception and language ability. We are not predisposed to drum (although some are more naturally gifted than others, more a coordination issue?), therefore necessity as a motivator could not apply. Or maybe i'm missing the point of your analogies.
Definitely agree that a developed listening ability is one of the most important factors in making improvements.

[wybasher]

Originally Posted by jonescrusher

But of course the fine muscle memory and motor control required to improve hands speed is quite distinct from the predispositions the human brain has for proprioception and language ability. We are not predisposed to drum (although some are more naturally gifted than others, more a coordination issue?), therefore necessity as a motivator could not apply.

This is a good point. But in my experience, there is very little genetic predisposition to use the mouth to communicate a thought vs using the hands or any other limb on your body. Yes, there's a cultural predisposition but not a genetic one. But I'm not a neurosurgeon or anthropologist so we can disagree on this point and I'm ok with that.

If we were to take a healthy infant and have his parents only "communicate" with him via drum patterns, I would guess that his speaking ability would be severely hampered but his hands would be faster than Buddy Rich. On a related note, the ability to speak correctly is not as automatic as it first seems because if you listen to adults that have been deaf since birth, they can barely speak intelligibly. Their inability to hear could not fine-tune their mouth to speak correctly. And the opposite idea is that the ear's perception can correct your single-stokes that are coming out as sloppy flams.

And to continue the observation of deaf people... watch two deaf people communicating in sign language to each other. Average deaf people are doing hand movements that are as fast as Buddy Rich. Of course, they're not doing single strokes on a drum set but if you were to break down their modulations of finger movement, elbow extensions, and so on, you'll see they are manipulating their fast twitch muscles very quickly. And they did not use a metronome to achieve this. Why is this so?

The common denominator seems to be the motivation for communication.

But your disagreement also brings up the ultimate answer: use a belief system that works for you. If you truly believe the gradual approach is superior and is helping you better than any other technique, then you should absolutely use it. If on the other hand, you believe the linguistic approach would get you the most progress then try it that way.

It's been interesting to see what everyone else's thoughts were on this.

[n2xlr8n]

Credit where it's due (at least here on this forum):

Wybasher, Ian Ballard, and IIRC mattsmith were all in favor of the "pushing it beyond your comfort zone" or "playing rhythm scales against a fixed metronome" method. It works fabulously for me.

Thanks, folks!

SRJ

[lochday]

Great thread!
I am not a very advanced drummer but recently I had to do a rock gig in front of many people. This was troublesome because my cup of tea is essentially Jazz, and I rarely play rock stuff. However, I didn't want to miss an opportunity to play with other musicians. It took me one week to learn all the songs, some of them with patterns I didn't master well, or even didn't know. I think my motivation here did all the work. Although I was conscious of my not always doing fine because I was outside of my comfort zone, the gig was a success and I managed about OK because I wanted so much to do well. This is just food for thought of course.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

Originally Posted by jonescrusher

I agree with taking small steps, in fact i'd recommend moving up in increments of 5 bpms. However, I disagree about stopping when things get sloppy. Certainly stop if muscles are tensing and strokes are approaching a complete breakdown, but stopping if you're falling out with the click will ensure no progress at all. Moving up in very small increments should mean this won't be a problem anyway. And i'm not sure muscle memory canstrictly be referred to as proprioception; proprioception is the brain's sixth sense that recognises the relative positions of the limbs, ensuring balance and coordination. Ok, sorry, i'm being a complete pedant;)

Its the coordination part to which I was referring when I mentioned proprioception. And as for sloppy, minutes for some maybe, hours for others but to practice when it gets real sloppy will probably frustrate the one practicing and only reinforce bad habits. Working thru mistakes will certainly be the road to success and improvement.

[jonescrusher]

Originally Posted by wybasher

This is a good point. But in my experience, there is very little genetic predisposition to use the mouth to communicate a thought vs using the hands or any other limb on your body. Yes, there's a cultural predisposition but not a genetic one. But I'm not a neurosurgeon or anthropologist so we can disagree on this point and I'm ok with that.

If we were to take a healthy infant and have his parents only "communicate" with him via drum patterns, I would guess that his speaking ability would be severely hampered but his hands would be faster than Buddy Rich. On a related note, the ability to speak correctly is not as automatic as it first seems because if you listen to adults that have been deaf since birth, they can barely speak intelligibly. Their inability to hear could not fine-tune their mouth to speak correctly. And the opposite idea is that the ear's perception can correct your single-stokes that are coming out as sloppy flams.

And to continue the observation of deaf people... watch two deaf people communicating in sign language to each other. Average deaf people are doing hand movements that are as fast as Buddy Rich. Of course, they're not doing single strokes on a drum set but if you were to break down their modulations of finger movement, elbow extensions, and so on, you'll see they are manipulating their fast twitch muscles very quickly. And they did not use a metronome to achieve this. Why is this so?

The common denominator seems to be the motivation for communication.

But your disagreement also brings up the ultimate answer: use a belief system that works for you. If you truly believe the gradual approach is superior and is helping you better than any other technique, then you should absolutely use it. If on the other hand, you believe the linguistic approach would get you the most progress then try it that way.

It's been interesting to see what everyone else's thoughts were on this.

Interesting points, but what are the actual mechanics of using a linguistic/communication approach in the context of improving hand speed? Could one only 'speak' through single stroke rolls? How would others understand the language?

[wybasher]

Originally Posted by jonescrusher

Interesting points, but what are the actual mechanics of using a linguistic/communication approach in the context of improving hand speed?

Because of lochday's post, I just realized that my notes overlap Jason Nutha's material by quite a bit. The plagiarism was unintentional (apologies Jason!) and instead of stealing his thunder, I will remind everyone of the link:

http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/s...ad.php?p=29993

Everything Jason says in that link, I totally endorse. Plus he's got all the pretty pictures to further drive the point home.

Perhaps the twist to it that I'm trying to say is that instead of adults trying to teach nuclear physics to children, you can also do the reverse, which is to pay attention to how children naturally learn without fear and reapply that again as an adult to learn single-strokes, Moeller, or other fine-motor-control coordination activities. Strength building activities seem to be done best with an "adult" mindset (so you don't injure yourself); but fine-motor skills seem to do better with a "child" mindset. If you're trying to learn how to dance the samba on the disco floor... it may be easier to regress to a child-like mentality to make it happen. Sometimes, we adults overthink the situation, hesitate because of inhibitions, wrap a lot of pretension around it, and then think we must strap a metronome to our ankle to have any hope of dancing a samba.

Could one only 'speak' through single stroke rolls? How would others understand the language?

These are good questions but they're taking this conversation in a different direction. I'm not thinking of using linguistics on hands to build any new grammar or syntax (such as what deaf people did by creating sign language, or what telegraphers did by creating Morse code.) I'm only taking linguistic aspects and reverse-engineering how we learned it as a child... and then reapply it to our hands (or feet) as if our limbs were the only way to interact with others. In other words, I'm inspired and draw insights from our use of language but have no intention to create another language.

[jeffwj]

Originally Posted by wybasher

Love your answers...

Seems like you're an excellent teacher with an open mind.

Thank you for the kind words. You brought up some good points with going back to a childlike way of learning. Sometimes a student cannot get the concept of the Moeller whip, so I'll have them throw a small ball (usually a Puddy Pad) with an overhanded motion. They automatically use the Moeller motion while throwing, winding up from the shoulder - energy transferred to the elbow and finally to the hand. They didn't have to think about the motion when learning to throw a ball, but as adults, they over-examine the Moeller motion instead of just letting it happen. Something interesting for us all to ponder.

Jeff