John Bonham

[dothecrunge]

Originally Posted by ewanlaing

oh god am i gonna ket killed for this. first off john bonham was an amazing drummer. his right foot was indeed very fast and his triplet fills were vey impressive. he played a lot of really cool stuff. two things, however, bother me when i listen to zeppelin. one is personal, in that i'm not actually a huge fan of that kind of rock, though i'm not saying it's bad music. heck it's incredible. the second is this. moby dick solo is, in my opinion, slightly too long and slightly too dull. even the studio version. i can never be bother to properly pay attention to the whole thing, cos it isn't exciting to me. it doesn't seem to have a pulse to it. the fact that the concert version was half an hour makes it worse, though the video clips on this site did make it seem like a much better solo. i think the studio version was a mistake, and i personally prefer the guitar parts. don't kill me please.

The original length of the album version of Moby Dick was about 10:00 minutes long. It was his usual style. Sticks>hands>sticks. For some reason, Page opted to edit out everything other than when Bonzo used his hands.

Another tidbit of information: The intro and outro of Moby Dick and the actual solo were recorded at seperate times.

[NUTHA JASON]

in some ways i could agree with you ewanlaing but always remember to put the event into its context. what were other rocks solos like at the time. remember that you and i have been spoilt by almost thirty years now of drummers who have done wonderful solos AFTER bonham. read my signature and understand that binham is a giant upon whose shoulders many drummers now stand taller. led zep were quite indulgent in the solo department. but i'm not really interested in bonham as a soloist. i ABSOLUTELY love his grooves and structural ideas. i have never attempted to cover moby dick but i can cover nearly every other zep song, for no other reason but for the joy of playing along with the man himself. i learned to groove from two drummers: john binham and phil rudd. funnily enough it was phil collins and chester thompson that got me into solos.


j

The all purpose Bonham Checklist:

1) Powerful, open sound. This was a rarity in a time of single headed, cardboard box kits. He HIT the drums and got them to ring out. He was *THE* counsummate rock drummer, not a warmed over jazz or bop drummer.

2) Unique, and iconic kits. He made vistalite even cooler to have. You know you want one, or a green sparkle maple kit. He had big drums, and used them all, nothing was wasted or for show. You have to love the gong and that hihat jingle ring.

3) Indulgent, but ground breaking solos. Like them or not, they were a lot groovier and better put togeather than most rock solos of that era. You can keep "toad", iron butterfly and Peter Criss. I'll take Bonzo's force majeure.

4)The groove: he played in a way that wasn't just 2/4 or 4/4. Listen to his swing closely, and it's far from simple robotics. When the leavee breaks is a towering groove, probably the most sampled and influential in history. He spiced his playing well.

5) The foot like castinets. Literally developing the first "power foot" of rock. he could hammer his kick, and play fast doubles and triples that took most drummers two kicks to do. He set a precedence in rock drumming: to really HEAR and FEEL the kick drum. He was a prime mover for the music. He was the perfect ying to Paige and Jones yang.

For all the reasons and above, he remains the godfather of rock drumming, with a nod to Carmine Appice. Bonzo is listed on countless pro drummers "greatest influences" list. It's one thing to have great chops or a solo now, building on what Bonzo started.

[Oxygeneral]

Hi There!!

I always thought that Bonham would have been great with a funky soul kind of outfit. His Moby Dick solo never did anything for me, but the way he used space was very influential to my drumming. The best Led Zeppelin album was the last one - In Through The Out Door. "Carouselambra" is a masterpiece.

[ewanlaing]

fair points guys. i thought the drums sounded kinda weird, i didn't realise he used his hands. it was that part of the solo i found slightly dull. i do love the song, and i think i am a bit of an ignorant kid when it comes to drum solos. by the way, in moby dick, for the little guitar solo bits, was jimmy page deliberately going slightly over time?

[dothecrunge]

Originally Posted by ewanlaing

fair points guys. i thought the drums sounded kinda weird, i didn't realise he used his hands. it was that part of the solo i found slightly dull. i do love the song, and i think i am a bit of an ignorant kid when it comes to drum solos. by the way, in moby dick, for the little guitar solo bits, was jimmy page deliberately going slightly over time?

Of course. Jimmy Page deliberately does everything.

Listen to the intro to "Friends", you can hear one slightly out of tune string. He does little things like that all the time.

Another example. Listen to "The Crunge", he tests the strings to hear himself before the guitar part kicks in, yet he does it live!

[DrummerEven]

John Bonham and Led Zeppelin was the creators of "rock" .
We can just say that Bonzo was and is the best rock drummer ever.










<3 Bonzo

[ewanlaing]

this is hard to disagree with. i can't think of a modern rock drummer who hasn't taken a trick or two from him.

So many fallacies still exist about the man, it's a shame really.

Bonham never played intoxicated on any Zeppelin show, he took great pride in being the glue that held the band together, the buck stopped with him. He knew that if he was 'off' the band never stood a chance of sounding it's best...the other members of Zeppelin knew this, also. The pride also manifested itself in a 'phobia' that was stronger than his inclination to overindulge in drink to combat the feelings of guilt he would get while touring(from being away from his family) and the boredom that accompanys it, he was more afraid of having a 'bad night' and the guilt he'd feel as a result(similar to Charlie Watts in this 'perfectionist' regard), than the other guilty feelings that were drowned in drink. He had a JOB to do, and he was gonna do it to the absolute best of his ability.

He did overindulge greatly off stage, and often 'jammed' with other groups totally drunk. The comment about demolishing the drumkit applied to a drumkit that belonged to a poor unsuspecting drummer of whom, Bonham was about to jam on his kit...perhaps in a state of intoxication...as this was when the 'devil' would come out in him.

On his own drumkits, he never 'thrashed' the drums and cymbals were struck correctly. He broke very few things. When younger, he would be harsh on sticks, this changed qtuickly, however, and he rarely broke them afterwards. Heads? He had the same Emperor snare head on that 402 for three US tours. Follow the performance history from the DVD....very little bashing, if any, is evident.

I will tell you he was a master drum tuner. EVERY tension rod was tuned in perfect pitch to the others on that particular head. Tuning is a lost artform, his ears were sensitive enough to perceive any discrepancy. I believe Joe Morello has this talent, also.

He loved to sing. He often wished he was, in fact, the singer, not Plant, and loved the opportunity to put harmonies of lines in on Zep tunes, even his tune count offs were sung...we've done four already....and from the 'outtakes' of Fool, One ah, Two ah...etc . Kinda reminds one of Buddy Rich's forrays to the mic.

He was an originator of a specific new style of drumming for a newly emerged genre. It wasn't the straight ahead metal of Sabbath or the classically influenced metal of Purple, it was the 'metal' that would incorporate every other type of music from English Folk, to Blues, to Psychedelic to Middle Eastern and Indian to Country and Pop, everything into an immediately recognizable sound that could only be attributed to Zeppelin. The vehicle he would choose to draw the template from would be the R+B and Funk styles that were newly emerging from the US with selected synchopated Blues ones. The backbeat influences of these styles were coupled with the desire to shadow and mimic the rhythmic strum patterns of the Electric Guitar in the many and varied compostions and make the rhythmic 'thrust' of the music as potent, yet, unassuming, as possible....quite brilliant, really.

Through all these involvements in all these music genres, his drum sound fit perfectly. Some may complain about D'Yer Maker, BUT, if you played the typical cross sticked and accented reggae pattern that accompanies the upstroked guitar of the genre, it would have fit as appropriately as all the other compositions.

As Carl Palmer says 'He(Bonham) got it right, I got it wrong'.....though, this is a comment regarding the style of music for the American marketplace, it is just as appropriate concerning the approach to the instrument, as it was Bonham's drum style that was the underlying foundation to the compositions of Zeppelin, and indeed as witnessed by the beginning drum beats of 'Levee' or D'yer Maker or Moby Dick or Ramble On....artistry that is immediately recognizable.

For those who don't recognize this, one day the light bulb will go on and you'll understand the magic, majesty and magnificence that was John Henry Bonham.

[aahznightsky]

I still think he's an amazing drummer but jfyo, he didn't tune his drums. His drum tech did. Jeff Ocheltree. Look him up. He's been the tech for Lenny White, Cobham and a number of other amazing drummers. It was Ocheltree who started the whole "resonant heads tighter for projection" concept that made bonham's drums sound so great.

[dothecrunge]

Originally Posted by aahznightsky

I still think he's an amazing drummer but jfyo, he didn't tune his drums. His drum tech did. Jeff Ocheltree. Look him up. He's been the tech for Lenny White, Cobham and a number of other amazing drummers. It was Ocheltree who started the whole "resonant heads tighter for projection" concept that made bonham's drums sound so great.

Jesus Christ. Enough with Jeff Ocheltree. I'm so sick of that hack. JHB started working with him in 1977. NINETEEN SEVENTY SEVEN. Is that too hard to understand? JHB had been playing drums, and tuning them himself LONG before JO was around.

Originally Posted by aahznightsky

I still think he's an amazing drummer but jfyo, he didn't tune his drums. His drum tech did. Jeff Ocheltree. Look him up. He's been the tech for Lenny White, Cobham and a number of other amazing drummers. It was Ocheltree who started the whole "resonant heads tighter for projection" concept that made bonham's drums sound so great.

Was Ocheltree around teching for Bonham during the fourth album? How about Presence? How about Grafitti?......I don't hear much of a difference in the great sound from the live performances of Madison Square Garden in 73, to Earl's Court in 75 to Knebworth in 79.....it sounds pretty damned good to me all the way through.
Mick Hinton was Bonham's longest 'serving' roadie. Recently he says in a current issue of an English percussion publication, 'Bonham tuned all his snares, himself....' he states he tuned the rest of the drums. THIS, in my opinion and according to MY research is wrong.
What is 'wrong' about the tech statements is the fact that replacing a head, by removing an old one and putting a new one on doesn't constitute 'tuning'. John Bonham tuned ALL his drums prior to shows by checking them and adjusting where necessary, that went for Hinton, Smith and Ocheltree, and I stand by this belief.

"John would sometimes check my bottom head tuning before shows-especially in humid areas." Jeff Ocheltree, Modern Drummer magazine

John Bonham would, in fact, from all my research, check a drum as soon as he discovered a sonic discrepancy and tune to bring the drum back to perfection.
The techs had very little work to do regarding 'changing' heads with Bonham. He HATED new drumheads, and as Ocheltree says, " Bonzo wouldn't change the heads unless it was absolutely necessary- he liked the sound of heads played in."

You have to cross all the comments by those involved with all your other research to get an accurate picture of what really was the situation. Unfortunately, Bonham doesn't rank on your influential drummer list anywhere that would cause you to devote the years studying him that I have.

[aahznightsky]

Originally Posted by dothecrunge

Jesus Christ. Enough with Jeff Ocheltree. I'm so sick of that hack. JHB started working with him in 1977. NINETEEN SEVENTY SEVEN. Is that too hard to understand? JHB had been playing drums, and tuning them himself LONG before JO was around.

Even if he started working with Bozo in 77, how on earth does a hack do such a good job that he's hired by countless top level players?

[NUTHA JASON]

Jeff is no hack. he was very experienced when he started working with bonzo and was much more experienced afterwards. the fact does remain the bonzo was his own engineer. his tastes were prime. JO stepped in but only to help not to create the famous bonham sound. i have loads of material about bonham from a large variety of sources. JO would tune up the kit as per bonham's instructions but he was never allowed to tune bonham's snare. john always did that himself. i think it is wrong to take away from either of these great men.

hope this helps.

j

Originally Posted by aahznightsky

Even if he started working with Bozo in 77, how on earth does a hack do such a good job that he's hired by countless top level players?

Interesting, you've gone from taking the guy's words as gospel to calling him a hack.

[aahznightsky]

Originally Posted by ClockworkOrange

Interesting, you've gone from taking the guy's words as gospel to calling him a hack.

lol! All I'm saying is that if Dothecrunge calls him a hack, why was he in such high demand. I don't think he's a hack at all!

And I agree with Nutha %100 on ALL of this.

[Speedy]

Originally Posted by dothecrunge

Jesus Christ. Enough with Jeff Ocheltree. I'm so sick of that hack. JHB started working with him in 1977. NINETEEN SEVENTY SEVEN. Is that too hard to understand? JHB had been playing drums, and tuning them himself LONG before JO was around.

Man, why you getting so angry over this? Oh and by the way..I don't think Jeff Ocheltree is a hack. There has to be some good in him if he's Bonzo's tech. Wouldn't you agree?

Well, the term 'tech' has changed a lot over the years.

The guy that schlepped your drum cases up over flights of stairs and drove the truck in the 60s was a 'tech' or roadie. Today, the duties can involve not only the setting up of equipment, but, all the correspondence and communication btwn the player and the companies that supply him with gear to scheduling appointments, bodyguard duties, concierge, labour/union relations, event planning and whatever the 'artist' wants in the job description.

The thing most pro players with high profile bands desire is discrepancy and non disclosure, next to the ability to stick a drum kit up via the tour method.

There isn't a 'large' market for drum tech/roadies and the guys that operate in the field usually do so for more than one 'name' drummer, they get their gigs usually through a 'word of mouth' chain. The first question is always 'Can they keep me set up and deal with my gear?" the second is, 'Can they keep their mouths shut?'

[DogBreath]

Originally Posted by dothecrunge

Jesus Christ. Enough with Jeff Ocheltree. I'm so sick of that hack. JHB started working with him in 1977. NINETEEN SEVENTY SEVEN. Is that too hard to understand? JHB had been playing drums, and tuning them himself LONG before JO was around.

Hey buddy, calm down. That is no way to express yourself here. Try something like this in the future:

"Actually, it's my understanding that Jeff O. started working with Bonzo in 1977. If that's true, then he shouldn't get credit for the tuning for the majority of Bonzo's career."

Or something along those lines. See the difference? Also, it is completely unnecessary to say, “I’m so sick of that hack." That is bashing and is a quick road to a ban, and I know that's not what you want. Calm down, dial it back a notch, and keep it respectful.

[dothecrunge]

Originally Posted by DogBreath

Hey buddy, calm down. That is no way to express yourself here. Try something like this in the future:

"Actually, it's my understanding that Jeff O. started working with Bonzo in 1977. If that's true, then he shouldn't get credit for the tuning for the majority of Bonzo's career."

Or something along those lines. See the difference? Also, it is completely unnecessary to say, “I’m so sick of that hack." That is bashing and is a quick road to a ban, and I know that's not what you want. Calm down, dial it back a notch, and keep it respectful.

I see your point.

All I ever hear about Bonzo and his drums are Jeff Ocheltree this, and Jeff Ocheltree that. I'm sick of it.

[finnhiggins]

Originally Posted by dothecrunge

I see your point.

All I ever hear about Bonzo and his drums are Jeff Ocheltree this, and Jeff Ocheltree that. I'm sick of it.

That's fine. But coming from somebody who, in many discussions on many drumming subjects, is quite happily off on a "John Bonham this, John Bonham that" tangent... I think you need to be a bit more forgiving.

Bonham is a great drummer with a great career and who left an indelible mark on our instrument. Ocheltree is a great tech who has done a lot of excellent work in his chosen field. So if other people choose to talk about Jeff a lot... well... that's just fine. Or should I remind you of the fact that 80% of your posts appear to refence Bonham in some way?

[dothecrunge]

Originally Posted by finnhiggins

Bonham is a great drummer with a great career and who left an indelible mark on our instrument. Ocheltree is a great tech who has done a lot of excellent work in his chosen field. So if other people choose to talk about Jeff a lot... well... that's just fine. Or should I remind you of the fact that 80% of your posts appear to refence Bonham in some way?

People can talk about Jeff all they want. What people need to stop doing is crediting Jeff with Bonzo's entire career. Bonzo's drums sounded like cannons way before Jeff was ever around, so I don't see how Jeff did anything to help Bonzo's sound.

And what is "refence"? Is that a typo? Did you mean "reference"?

If you did, then yes, most of my posts pertain to John Bonham. Why? Because I know a great deal about the man. You don't see me talking about Peart all the time, do you? I wonder why? Because I know nothing about the man at all, and I don't really care either. I'm a fan of Led Zeppelin, and it's members, and I take great pride in the knowledge I have attained over the years. I don't see anything wrong with that.

I mean, I don't quite understand the point of your last sentence. Should I start talking about other drummers? Would that make your shoes fly off in a fit of joy? [I think I've used that here before ;)]

Crunge is right. John Bonham didn't owe anybody anything. Not Page, not Ocheltree.
Everything he did was down to him.

[finnhiggins]

Originally Posted by dothecrunge

People can talk about Jeff all they want. What people need to stop doing is crediting Jeff with Bonzo's entire career. Bonzo's drums sounded like cannons way before Jeff was ever around, so I don't see how Jeff did anything to help Bonzo's sound.

That's fine and dandy, but you do seem quite antagonistic towards the guy. Bonham had a great sound. A lot of any drummer's sound comes from the hands, so I'd be quite happy to argue that Bonham would have sounded like Bonham on even my drum kit. The job of somebody like Ocheltree (or any of Bonham's other techs) would be to set things up and (potentially) work in conjunction with the sound engineers on recordings or in concert environments to get a great drum tone. In other words, rather than defining Bonham's sound they'd be more about preserving and presenting that sound so you can enjoy it.

There were many more people involved in getting the "Great Bonham sound" down on record for us to enjoy today. Ocheltree was one of them - at least during the latter period - so I really think you're being a bit harsh towards him. Yes, he doesn't deserve all the credit. That's obvious. But he does deserve some. The fact that he is alive and has a DVD available probably helps his standing in this respect quite a lot.

And what is "refence"? Is that a typo? Did you mean "reference"?

Yup, thanks for catching that. I type pretty fast, so typos tend to slip through sometimes if I don't preview...

If you did, then yes, most of my posts pertain to John Bonham. Why? Because I know a great deal about the man. You don't see me talking about Peart all the time, do you? I wonder why? Because I know nothing about the man at all, and I don't really care either. I'm a fan of Led Zeppelin, and it's members, and I take great pride in the knowledge I have attained over the years. I don't see anything wrong with that.

I mean, I don't quite understand the point of your last sentence. Should I start talking about other drummers? Would that make your shoes fly off in a fit of joy? [I think I've used that here before ;)]

Well, it's never happened before - but you could try it and we'll see how it goes!

[Bernhard]

Originally Posted by dothecrunge

Because I know nothing about the man at all, and I don't really care either. I'm a fan of Led Zeppelin, and it's members, and I take great pride in the knowledge I have attained over the years. Should I start talking about other drummers? Would that make your shoes fly off in a fit of joy?]

Yes, please talk also about other drummers.

I'm dissappointed that you don't care about other drummers. How you can you praise someone as good or best, if you know nobody else???? I see all your posts in another light now....

Bernhard

[dothecrunge]

Originally Posted by Bernhard

Yes, please talk also about other drummers.

I'm dissappointed that you don't care about other drummers. How you can you praise someone as good or best, if you know nobody else???? I see all your posts in another light now....

Bernhard

I've never said Bonzo was the best drummer. If a "favorite" thread comes up, I'll say Bonzo, because he's my favorite, but I would never say he was the best.

It always amazes me... one post from Bernhard and suddenly I feel belittled and insignifcant...

Well Dothecrunge, I appreciate your feedback on John Bonham. It is obvious that you know a good deal about the man, but I think we all need to open our mind a bit. I did, I started listening to ?uestlove, and my biggest influence when I started was Lars Ulrich. So there's an example of a fairly open mind; and I feel much better for it.

[Bernhard]

It's incredible, where the name of John Bonham appears everywhere spread over the forum - and this is only the first 2 percents:

in the Jeff Indyke thread
in the Billy Ward thread
in the fastest Double Bass Player thread (sic!!)
Drugs us end music (of course)
Introduce yourself (lol!!!!!!)
Tre Cool (bluffffffffff......
Joey Jordison (arrrggghhh.......
Danny Carey
PDP problems
Stuff you will probably never hear.....
USE AC/DC
Peter Criss
tell me who's the best Metal drummer (double lol)
Meg White (aha!!!!)
Do you sing while playing (...better not)
Anyone Evans EC2 heads....
ching ring hihat tambourines ....why not?
Keith Moon (almost forgotten.....)
Jimmy Chamberlin
Brann Dailor
Virgil Donati
Drums Schools vx. Private Teacher
John Densmore
DW 9000 Pedals (..thats new to me really, because DW didn't exist then....)
The Grand Master Buddy Rich (sorry, he loved only Steve Gadd)
Chris Adler (..not even born then)
My Pearl Export....hmmmm
Dream Singer Duets ( sorry, it's meant Tracy Bonham)
Do people still think Led Zeppelin is overrated???? - what a question

Well, well, I loved this guy once......
Bernhard

...and you'll love him again.

[Kev Richardson]

Still the number one influence in rock drumming today!

Even if there was a separate "Bonham" forum, his name would still be used anywhere/anytime key words like Ludwig, Paiste, Led Zeppelin, the 60's, 70's, drinking etc. were used.

With Bonham, the die hards will find any reason to bring up his name.

"I like to use library paste for little projects..."

"Hey! John Bonham once ATE some library paste, and he was very good at doing it!"

[dothecrunge]

Originally Posted by mediocrefunkybeat

It always amazes me... one post from Bernhard and suddenly I feel belittled and insignifcant...

Well Dothecrunge, I appreciate your feedback on John Bonham. It is obvious that you know a good deal about the man, but I think we all need to open our mind a bit. I did, I started listening to ?uestlove, and my biggest influence when I started was Lars Ulrich. So there's an example of a fairly open mind; and I feel much better for it.

If it helps, you always seemed insignificant to me.

:P

I always feel insignicant; don't worry... personal complex.

[NUTHA JASON]

but just remember:


don't bash bonham!

Maybe it should be, bash Bonham before he bashes you!


LOL!

[finnhiggins]

Originally Posted by Thinshells

Even if there was a separate "Bonham" forum, his name would still be used anywhere/anytime key words like Ludwig, Paiste, Led Zeppelin, the 60's, 70's, drinking etc. were used.

With Bonham, the die hards will find any reason to bring up his name.

Indeed. It doesn't half get tiresome, I have to say! There's what, five hundred-ish drummers on Drummerworld and these guys have somewhere between little and nothing to say about the other 99.75% of them? Urk.

Bonham is a great drummer, but raising one single topic in any conversation on any subject is a good indication that you're probably getting stale and boring in life.

Originally Posted by Thinshells

Even if there was a separate "Bonham" forum, his name would still be used anywhere/anytime key words like Ludwig, Paiste, Led Zeppelin, the 60's, 70's, drinking etc. were used.

With Bonham, the die hards will find any reason to bring up his name.

"I like to use library paste for little projects..."

"Hey! John Bonham once ATE some library paste, and he was very good at doing it!"

My truck broke down this weekend, mechanic told me I need a new John Bonham. Met this girl at the club that night. Let's just say she was pretty John Bonham'd. She Bonham'd me right there in the parking lot.

[NouveauCliche]

Originally Posted by Milo

My truck broke down this weekend, mechanic told me I need a new John Bonham. Met this girl at the club that night. Let's just say she was pretty John Bonham'd. She Bonham'd me right there in the parking lot.

Milo wins.


I'd Bonham him.

[finnhiggins]

Originally Posted by Milo

My truck broke down this weekend, mechanic told me I need a new John Bonham. Met this girl at the club that night. Let's just say she was pretty John Bonham'd. She Bonham'd me right there in the parking lot.

What happens when a man goes through his own portal?

Originally Posted by Milo

My truck broke down this weekend, mechanic told me I need a new John Bonham. Met this girl at the club that night. Let's just say she was pretty John Bonham'd. She Bonham'd me right there in the parking lot.

That's the "Smurf" way to use the name. I was also thinking of that old SNL skit with the superfans.

"What if John Bonham was coaching the bears?" "They'd win 114 to negative 20!"