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  #561  
Old 04-17-2006, 04:32 PM
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Default Re: John Bonham

Sticktrick- You're a clever guy.
Who cares about John's right foot speed? He had a pretty mean right foot- but as stated already I can easily name ten-fifteen other drummers before or during his time who had a faster right foot. Technique, chops, whatever is something that doesn't matter to the quality of the drumming. If there's a technical weakpoint, okay, sure. Not like Bohnam had one. Anyways, his drumming is great- regardless of who has a better right foot (which drummers such as Tony Williams, Art Blakey, Buddy Rich, Billy Cobham, Elvin Jones or Carmine Appice or whoever did have) his drumming stands on it's own as absolutely legendary. Regardless of who had faster hands, faster right foot, shorter hair, nicer clothes or whatever.
The point I'm trying to get at is that technique is only a means to access your creativity. It's not the be all end all. You can STILL create amazing drum parts without having the godliest right foot in the known universe. This is one of the reasons why Bonzo was such a legendary drummer. Technique is really amusical- it has nothing to do with making great drum parts. Look at Steve Jordan. Has he ever played busy music? I'm not sure, I haven't heard it. He's one of the most in demand and awesome drummers today because he has great parts. Same with Bohnam. Was he technically as virtuoistic as some of the above drummers? No. Were the drummers above better drummers than him? Depending on who you talk to, yes or no, but I love Bohnam and he's right up there with those drummers (even further than most) on my favorites list. It doesn't even matter who had more chops to me.
You'll notice if someone said something like "Elvin Jones is a better polyrhythmic player than Tony Williams" I'd probably say something like "Yes, you're right, but who REALLY cares?". Then, a discussion would follow about how he was a better polyrhythmic player than than Tony. I wouldn't ever try to assert that Tony could smoke Elvin, even if Tony was a better rock drummer, had better hands, had better licks, whatever. They're both fantastic, and I love both almost equally at different times. They're different, and they stand on their own- I don't ever feel a need to defend Tony Williams, or John Bohnam. I know what and who those two, or any drummer, are. I know what they aren't as well. I have a feeling that some of these really popular drummers are greatly overhyped by some, and it doesn't do them justice.
J- That's a great quote, everyone in every field should have that attitude, I feel. Just because you're building on someone doesn't mean they're not giants. Their work stands by itself, it doesn't even need defending.
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  #562  
Old 04-17-2006, 05:00 PM
Sticktrick
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Default Re: John Bonham

Yeah Duke, you're right with what you say.

I'd like to stretch my point a little further and get away from Hands and Feet. If I REALLY think about the qualities that I appreciate most in all my drumming heroes, I think that the two most important physical parts are not Hands and Feet, but Ears and the Heart.

THATS what it takes to be a great drummer. You need big ears to really notice what the other guys in the band are doing and to hear what they demand from your drumming. You need to pay attention to all the small details of their playing. You need these ears to determine if you're too loud, too soft, too far laid back, etc. Also to realize if the sound you're getting from your drums is the way you want it to be.
You also need a big heart, because if the music you're playing is not touching you there and if all you play doesn't come from your heart, then you will be a brain-driven drummer that no one will want to listen to, because you will never ever be able to touch someone elses heart with your playing.

Hands and Feet are just the limbs that execute these things, but they should always come from your heart and lock in with what you hear with your ears.

And now back to John, Tony, Elvin or any other true musical great drummer: They all certainly had big ears and their playing really came from their heart. If all these crazy Bonhamides that are just talking about his right foot, reduce John to this foot, then they obviously just didn't get, what he was all about: Music, Soul, Heart and Ears. End of the Story.

...

Oh yeah... and I forgot about this: Balls. Thats what it also takes.
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  #563  
Old 04-17-2006, 07:42 PM
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Default Re: John Bonham

Yeah, I like where this is all heading. We're getting off the bull of being the fastest and getting towards the more musically complimenting.

Maybe there are quicker drummers or drummers with more chops or whatever, but who out there fits into his/her band as well as Bonham fit into Zeppelin? Actually, the whole band fit so well together, much of what they did and do outside of Zeppelin falls short in my opinion. For instance, and granted is was just a session job and an album I love, but did Dave Weckl's playing with Plant and occasionally Page on the Honeydrippers Vol. 1 album inspire anyone to rush out and pick up some drum sticks, work on vocals, or a buy a new guitar? Who would say that Bonham has more chops than Weckl (not me), but he certainly has chops: there is still alot of clean technique involved in the playing of Bonham.

Zeppelin as a band was one where each member was an excellent musician, but in addition to that, they played well together. Geez, there are so many great drummers, but not all of these guys are playing in groups where the rest of the members take care of their own individual musical business as well as the members of Zeppelin did.

BTW, I saw a post earlier that sort of bashed Plant a little. Plant is an excellent musician. His rhythm, dynamics, his feel for lyrics, the way he chops words and holds phrases out - you can tell he likes to cut his stuff from the same cloth as guys like James Brown. Plant and Bonham gave Zeppelin it's sound and feel as much as anyone has given a band anything.

Another thing I'd add is that Bonham wasn't a drummer who was out cooking a quiche when simple srambled eggs would do. First, he did what the music called for and what his band needed - throwing a little personal spice and taste in at the same time and showing off occasionally just to make sure no one forgot he was back there helping to hold down the fort with Jones.

When I think about a good drummer when compared to someone else, I don't just look at a person's playing. Most of us can move our hands and feet pretty fast in a coordinated effort over our instrument. However, how many of us and how many of the drummers that get mentioned as being "better" than Bonham can help create and sit in a pocket as tightly, be musically supportive, stand out in a group's sound without being completely dominant, and fit into the musical situations in which we find ourselves as well or better than Bonham did. If I could do that, I'd be pretty happy even if I didn't have broken bass drum triplets at quarter note = 180 or a 4 voice polythm going on.

I'm not saying that every person that plays simple stuff necessarily falls into the Bonham category as far as feel and such either. There are alot of professional recordings where the stuff is as simple or simpler than some of Bonham's playing that does not even come close to being as tight or supportive or fit into the group's tapestry of sound as well as Bonham's playing fits into Zeppelin's or give a band such a fat, comfortable, broad base over which to play. Charlie Watt's is play's pretty straight ahead ideas. Can anyone imagine his sound as part of Zeppelin? I can't, but he fits in whith the Stones very well.

Bottom Line
I wonder if a few replies to this post by could possibly give a list of drummers people think sat or sit so well with the band or bands they play/played in? I'd be much more interested in investigating and listening to drummers within groups on that list than I would a list of drummers who have faster feet or the quickest paradiddles or whatever. Who do you think fits in as well as or bettern than Bonham did with Zeppelin? Whose drum sound do you think is as signature as Bonham's and at the same time is backed up by a group where nearly every member's sound is as signature to the sound of the group without a single sound being completely dominant? Hit me...

Thanks in advance for any info you give.
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  #564  
Old 04-17-2006, 08:28 PM
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Default Re: John Bonham

only guy i can think of is jimmy chamberlin. his parts just slide perfectly into pumpkins music. i was thinking of keith moon, but he almost seems a tad too obvious.
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  #565  
Old 04-17-2006, 09:12 PM
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Default Re: John Bonham

Quote:
I can easily name ten-fifteen other drummers before or during his time who had a faster right foot.
alrite, i can agree with most of what your saying but that statement is absolutely rediculous, please name 15 people that BEFORE OR DURING his time had a faster right foot. And please provide some examples of their playing. I pretty much exclusively listen to stuff before 1980, and i havent heard anybody touch bonham in his right foot speed, let alone power.
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  #566  
Old 04-17-2006, 09:34 PM
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Default Re: John Bonham

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonham to the moon
alrite, i can agree with most of what your saying but that statement is absolutely rediculous, please name 15 people that BEFORE OR DURING his time had a faster right foot. And please provide some examples of their playing. I pretty much exclusively listen to stuff before 1980, and i havent heard anybody touch bonham in his right foot speed, let alone power.
I want to see this too.

Name and links, mp3s.

15 people I'm waiting for.
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  #567  
Old 04-17-2006, 09:41 PM
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Default Re: John Bonham

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonham to the moon
alrite, i can agree with most of what your saying but that statement is absolutely rediculous, please name 15 people that BEFORE OR DURING his time had a faster right foot. And please provide some examples of their playing. I pretty much exclusively listen to stuff before 1980, and i havent heard anybody touch bonham in his right foot speed, let alone power.
And in one fell swoop, the discussion returns to the banal.

Serious, BTM - do you really, really think it is essential for your man Bonham to be The Fastest, The Most Powerful? Can't he just be an amazing musician? My favourite studio drummer around today is Matt Chamberlain. Does that mean I have to argue that his hands are better than Vinnie's? No! I just happen to like his stuff more.

So, I guess the ultimate answer is: Who cares? And if so, why?
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  #568  
Old 04-17-2006, 09:46 PM
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Default Re: John Bonham

agreed finn.
i've said it before and i'll say it again... i've never been that impressed with bonzo's speed...look he was fast and powerful...but it was always his taste and musicality that struck me. you can hear that he is having fun drumming.

j
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  #569  
Old 04-17-2006, 09:48 PM
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Default Re: John Bonham

Quote:
Originally Posted by finnhiggins
And in one fell swoop, the discussion returns to the banal.

Serious, BTM - do you really, really think it is essential for your man Bonham to be The Fastest, The Most Powerful? Can't he just be an amazing musician? My favourite studio drummer around today is Matt Chamberlain. Does that mean I have to argue that his hands are better than Vinnie's? No! I just happen to like his stuff more.

So, I guess the ultimate answer is: Who cares? And if so, why?
I agree with you on that one reguarding Matt Chamberlain. Wonder stuff he does on the latest Morrissey album.
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  #570  
Old 04-17-2006, 10:56 PM
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Default Re: John Bonham

Quote:
And in one fell swoop, the discussion returns to the banal.

Serious, BTM - do you really, really think it is essential for your man Bonham to be The Fastest, The Most Powerful? Can't he just be an amazing musician? My favourite studio drummer around today is Matt Chamberlain. Does that mean I have to argue that his hands are better than Vinnie's? No! I just happen to like his stuff more.

So, I guess the ultimate answer is: Who cares? And if so, why?
well i didnt want to go back to this, but i couldnt let that go. I dont care if bonham did have the fastest right foot, but the fact is, is that he did have an extrmemly fast right foot and me being a a huge bonham fan, its completely false to say that at the time there were 15 guys that had a faster right foot. Im ready to be preoven wrong, if he can give names of 10-15 people and some examples then i'll shut up, but until then thats absolutely rediculous to say.
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  #571  
Old 04-18-2006, 12:26 AM
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Default Re: John Bonham

BTTM and fixmejesus- I will PM you both because I don't want to talk about other drummers much more.
You guys are still missing the point. It doesn't even MATTER who's faster. Why split hairs about it? All are great!
I thought I'd return this discussion to John Bonham. I have a question. How do you guys all count the drum intro to Rock and Roll?
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  #572  
Old 04-18-2006, 01:10 AM
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Default Re: John Bonham

Quote:
Originally Posted by theduke86
I thought I'd return this discussion to John Bonham. I have a question. How do you guys all count the drum intro to Rock and Roll?
I transcribed it as follows:



I'm not sure, but I think on the album version, he's stricter about playing a locked hands shuffle through the tune, but on the live stuff I think he cuts the snare down to just the backbeats and some ghosted, locked hands here and there.

As far as counting it, I think the above is the most logical. I've seen transcriptions and tabs that add a 2/4 bar or something right before the band comes in to make up for an entrance that starts right on 1 of the first bar and ends with a crash right on a downbeat when the band comes in. I definitely hear the crash on the upbeat (just before the band enters on the downbeat) plus I don't think that it's logical to have a bar of 2/4 before the band comes in when the rest of the tune is in 4/4.

Incidentally, I've seen published transcriptions that so something similar on Misty Mountain Hop. One actually adds a bar on 9/8 or something. For me, I don't think Zeppelin, even as rhythmically sound as they were, would do something like that on a tune like Misty or add a 2/4 bar before the band enters on Rock and Roll. It's far more logical to transcribe the intro with no barlines and begin counting backwards if necessary to figure out where the intro starts with respect to the band coming in. Then you end up with something like the above graphic: an entrance in the middle of a pick-up bar to a 4 bar intro - very logical, very straight forward, and very likely.

BYW, on the studio version during the verse parts, I hear a few different bass drum variations (which I have transcribed), but through it all, Bonham plays a heavier downbeat when riding on the hi-hat. I've seen transciptions that have him playing just quarters while riding on the hih-hat, but I don't hear it that way. Also, on some of the live videos, you can catch a glimpse of his stick and it's definately articulating two attacks (the downbeat and the upbeat), so the sort of two attacks for the price of one seems like a reasonable technique to employ on this shuffle groove.

Of course, I am probably totally wrong, but hopefully someone will correct me and I can amend my transcription and be better for it. :)

Thanks for the opportunity to bring this discussion back to music. Oh, and my feet are not very fast (yet), so I have to make up for it by studying the people whose music I enjoy so that someday I'll be a better musican AND my feet will be faster. :)
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  #573  
Old 04-18-2006, 01:13 AM
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Default Re: John Bonham

Quote:
Originally Posted by fixmejesus
I want to see this too.

Name and links, mp3s.

15 people I'm waiting for.

Read my first post. Think about it. I have a question for you: Why do you care about this? Does it make Johns accomplishments better if there aren't any drummer with a faster right foot? Does it make them worse if there are? Will you enjoy Zeppelins music more or less if you know exactly?

I still don't understand why so many people on this whole forum confuse drumming and music with sports. You wanna compete? Go play soccer or become a runner.

I also don't understand this whole "my favorite drummer is better than yours" attitude. Cut the crap guys, it's annoying as hell. There are so many great drummers.... there is so much great music....

Why argue in such pointless ways about such nonsense?

Maybe I also get this whole Discussion Forum idea wrong - that's why I left this forum for quite some time and it's the reason why I'm about to leave once more.

Finn - we'll stay in touch anyway!
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  #574  
Old 04-18-2006, 01:18 AM
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Default Re: John Bonham

That looks like a pretty sound transcription. Really the best way of counting it is to feel it, I can't think of a strict way of doing it personally but then again theory never has been my strong point.

For an interesting variation on the introduction, I play the off-beat snare hits as bass notes so it goes something like this:

(S) = Snare (B) = Bass

SbbSbSbbSbbSbSbbSbSbbSbSbbSbSbSbS

Something along those lines. It's too late to transcribe it properly but it sounds good if your right foot can keep up.

EDIT: StickTrick I entirely and utterly agree with you. Music is not a competition, stop making it one. BTTM I remember you used to do this all the time and it really got on my nerves.
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  #575  
Old 04-18-2006, 01:21 AM
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Default Re: John Bonham

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mediocrefunkybeat
For an interesting variation on the introduction, I play the off-beat snare hits as bass notes so it goes something like this:

(S) = Snare (B) = Bass

SbbSbSbbSbbSbSbbSbSbbSbSbbSbSbSbS

Something along those lines. It's too late to transcribe it properly but it sounds good if your right foot can keep up..
That's cool - I'll try it that way. At one time I experimented with it along those lines, but I couln't keep the feel relaxed. To be honest, I haven't tried it in quite a while and maybe it would be OK now.
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  #576  
Old 04-18-2006, 01:23 AM
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Default Re: John Bonham

I can't always get it down to be entirely fair, it's a tricky one and it's really high energy but it feels great when you pull it off. I only do it because it's the way I first listened (incorrectly) to the song. It's a great introduction, good luck with it.
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  #577  
Old 04-18-2006, 02:00 AM
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Default Re: John Bonham

Here's the intro to Mist Mountain Hop that I mentioned above as I hear it. I have the book "Best of Led Zeppelin Drums" and if I remember correctly it has a bar of 9/8 before the band comes in. The transcriber must have heard the upbeat ostenato played by Jones as coming in on the downbeat. I don't hear it that way and I think the below way is much more likely. Again, this is my own take:



Does anyone else hear it this way or a different way?

Also, the groove Bonham plays here to me is very much like the groove he plays for Rock and Roll. The Misty groove is slower than Rock and Roll and there are no locked hands between snare and riding hi-hat, but I believe he employes that shuffle feel in riding the hi-hat where the first attack (on the downbeat) is stronger and the second attack (on the upbeat) is more of a bounce or more of a two for the price of one type thing. A very traditional thing for an R&B drummer to employ, so it's a very likely technique to be part of Bonham's repetoire in my opinion. When you watch the live stuff, you can see this attack and you can see how it's a flick of the wrist technique (sort of - it's actually easier to see or demo than to explain). His bass drum comping in both tunes is very similar as I hear it too.
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  #578  
Old 04-18-2006, 02:03 AM
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Default Re: John Bonham

I hear an anacrusis, but by definition that's the upbeat. Interesting...
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  #579  
Old 04-18-2006, 02:20 AM
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Default Re: John Bonham

It's four measures with two added beats. In your mind, you can add the two extra beats at the front, or the end. Or, if you're like me, I never count anything, ever, anyway.
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  #580  
Old 04-18-2006, 02:29 AM
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Default Re: John Bonham

Coolmanchu- Those transcriptions are sweet. I never really heard rock and roll that way. I used to count it starting it on one... I think it would roll out on the and of 2 on the last bar. You're a smart guy. I dig that misty mountain hop one too.
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  #581  
Old 04-18-2006, 02:33 AM
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Default Re: John Bonham

Quote:
Originally Posted by theduke86
Coolmanchu- Those transcriptions are sweet. I never really heard rock and roll that way. I used to count it starting it on one... I think it would roll out on the and of 2 on the last bar. You're a smart guy. I dig that misty mountain hop one too.
Thanks for the compliment - you said some excellent things above too - really helped get the discussion back to music which I think everyone will benefit from (oh, I sound so level headed and righteous - I'm really not!!!)
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Old 04-18-2006, 03:58 AM
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Default Re: John Bonham

Rock and Roll was transcribed in MD in a different way. It had the left and right hands playing the same thing with accents on certain notes. It also started on the and of 3. The MD one sounds pretty accurate...
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  #583  
Old 04-18-2006, 04:10 AM
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Default Re: John Bonham

has anynody ever seen his fill near the end of achilles last stand on the dvd....amazing
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  #584  
Old 04-18-2006, 04:47 AM
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Default Re: John Bonham

Quote:
Originally Posted by franklinj
Rock and Roll was transcribed in MD in a different way. It had the left and right hands playing the same thing with accents on certain notes. It also started on the and of 3. The MD one sounds pretty accurate...
I think I've seen that version or a version of that version. Personally, for me starting it on the and of 3 just doesn't seem to set as well on this intro because it doesn't come out correctly at the end without some metric adjustments being made. Plus that group of four 8th notes where the first and last are accented really seem to feel like they fall on a strong downbeat (they fall on 3 in my version).

As far as playing all the articulations in each hand (locked hands): I've played around with playing the entire intro with locked hands and accents, but it seems too weighed down that way. Plus, listening very closely to the recordings, I don't hear the hi-hat articulations on every attack like the MD transcription probably has. I really here those short spaces when he rides and accents on the hi-hat as something different than an attack made by a stick: with the partially open hi-hat, I hear a little "clatter" that could be mistaken as an attack, but sounds different than the other attacks because there is no stick articulation. This "clatter" attack comes off well to my ear when I play the intro as above.

That's not to say one is right or one is wrong - I just like mine better. I don't write for MD and I'm definitely not as qualifed to as the people who do, but I still like to think about this stuff and test it out as much as the next person.

You know, if you happen to have that transcription, I'd really like to see it. Is there a link or a way you could possibly email it or something? I can't help but wonder now... :)

Thanks franklinj.
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Old 04-18-2006, 04:47 AM
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Default Re: John Bonham

Quote:
Originally Posted by theduke86
BTTM and fixmejesus- I will PM you both because I don't want to talk about other drummers much more.
You guys are still missing the point. It doesn't even MATTER who's faster. Why split hairs about it? All are great!
I thought I'd return this discussion to John Bonham. I have a question. How do you guys all count the drum intro to Rock and Roll?
Great, you finally got the point that we want to talk about Bonham here and not Elvin or 15 other drummers that are faster and better than Bonham. I know 15 too that are way better that I'd like to mention all from different parts of the galaxy, but we are here to talk about Bonham.
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Old 04-18-2006, 04:49 AM
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Default Re: John Bonham

Quote:
Originally Posted by theduke86
Coolmanchu- Those transcriptions are sweet. I never really heard rock and roll that way. I used to count it starting it on one... I think it would roll out on the and of 2 on the last bar. You're a smart guy. I dig that misty mountain hop one too.
Yeah mee too. I like that too.
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  #587  
Old 04-18-2006, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdp 9091
has anynody ever seen his fill near the end of achilles last stand on the dvd....amazing
And then Plant does that loong oooooh which sends shivers through my body electric.
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  #588  
Old 04-18-2006, 05:01 AM
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Default Re: John Bonham

I grew up listening to and idolizing Bonham... I was in Guitar Ctr checking out cymbals on Sat and had to stop and watch dvd playing on the tv, with him going off on in my time of dying.. Bonzo rules
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  #589  
Old 04-18-2006, 05:02 AM
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Default Re: John Bonham

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Originally Posted by fixmejesus
And then Plant does that loong oooooh which sends shivers through my body electric.

and those thunderous fills in kashmir are great too

------------------------------------------------
by the way Bernhard....you know how you did that video clip with the aaron spears drum fill at the grammys....how you showed it and then put it in slow-mo a couple times....i suggest that u make a clip for the fill that bonzo pulls off near the end of achilles last stand on the dvd...that would be awesome if you could
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Old 04-18-2006, 05:11 AM
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Default Re: John Bonham

What do you think of the Best of Led Zep book? I think it's a good guideline, but you have to feel it and be in total sync with your bandmates to come close to pulling it off. We don't play our medly of zep covers in front of anyone but close friends. Too much pressure. One mistake an everyone knows.
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Old 04-18-2006, 09:00 AM
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Default Re: John Bonham

lol. great posts everybody.

as a chump who reads music at the speed of a glacier i learned led zep parts differently. for rock 'n roll and also the intro fill to bonzo's montreaux i use a method i call ten pennies.
i put on the head phones (to get perfect stereo and sound) and put a pile of ten pennies on the table in front of me. then i play (on the cd - so i'm sitting still and not drumming) the target section of the song (ie the R'nR intro) with my eyes closed. each time i play it i take apenny off the pile.
next i repeat the above exercise but this time i air drum it to get a feel for the limb movement (no feet yet).
then i turn up the bass and treble and drop the mids so i can hear the bass drum as clearly as possible and do that ten times.
then only do i start trying it out on the drums. (after hearing the piece 30 times).
so its in my head by heart and my hands and feet usually follow.

j
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Old 04-18-2006, 03:05 PM
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Default Re: John Bonham

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Originally Posted by NUTHA JASON
lol. great posts everybody.

as a chump who reads music at the speed of a glacier i learned led zep parts differently. for rock 'n roll and also the intro fill to bonzo's montreaux i use a method i call ten pennies.
i put on the head phones (to get perfect stereo and sound) and put a pile of ten pennies on the table in front of me. then i play (on the cd - so i'm sitting still and not drumming) the target section of the song (ie the R'nR intro) with my eyes closed. each time i play it i take apenny off the pile.
next i repeat the above exercise but this time i air drum it to get a feel for the limb movement (no feet yet).
then i turn up the bass and treble and drop the mids so i can hear the bass drum as clearly as possible and do that ten times.
then only do i start trying it out on the drums. (after hearing the piece 30 times).
so its in my head by heart and my hands and feet usually follow.

j
That's cool - I think I try that myself too.

I just use the paper as a guide to refer back to once in a while. Also, going through the step of writing some things down (I don't write everything down) is just another exercise in seeing if what I think I'm playing or hearing is actually what I intend (in addition to recording myself playing it). The other thing the paper does is it allows me to easily communicate my understanding of something to someone else who isn't standing in front of my drums to hear for themselves what my understanding is.

People that are into writing lyrics or even prose alot of times keep all kinds of notebooks and ideas they want to try out. I think doing this on the drums works well for me personally. My notebook is more or less my laptop since I use Finale alot to write things out, but it's still the same idea.

Things I transcribe are different that my own snippet ideas that I've saved because I have the recording to trigger the memory, but still writing it down for me helps even though I usually set the paper aside and go off of sound and feel and memory as soon as possible.

There are alot of sources for these transcriptions out there (like that Best of Led Zeppelin drums) and I too just use that as a guide. There simply are alot of mistakes in these books and tabs, but they're probably 90-95% accurate and definitely catch things that I've missed. So, with the tabs and books and my own ear to correct mistakes I hear, it's not too difficult to come up with a transcription pretty close to a recording. Then working out the mechanics on and away from the kit it the real task. I wonder if I'll ever get the first verse of "Good Times Bad Times" up to speed... (transcribing it is alot easier than playing well).
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Old 04-18-2006, 05:13 PM
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Default Re: John Bonham

Quote:
Originally Posted by NUTHA JASON
lol. great posts everybody.

as a chump who reads music at the speed of a glacier i learned led zep parts differently. for rock 'n roll and also the intro fill to bonzo's montreaux i use a method i call ten pennies.
i put on the head phones (to get perfect stereo and sound) and put a pile of ten pennies on the table in front of me. then i play (on the cd - so i'm sitting still and not drumming) the target section of the song (ie the R'nR intro) with my eyes closed. each time i play it i take apenny off the pile.
next i repeat the above exercise but this time i air drum it to get a feel for the limb movement (no feet yet).
then i turn up the bass and treble and drop the mids so i can hear the bass drum as clearly as possible and do that ten times.
then only do i start trying it out on the drums. (after hearing the piece 30 times).
so its in my head by heart and my hands and feet usually follow.

j
Some serious dedication there, Nutha!! I'd feel like a nap after 3 pennies.
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Old 04-18-2006, 06:06 PM
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Default Re: John Bonham

well yes...it does depend on the piece. listen to the intro to 'bonzo's montreaux'.

there is a lot more going on there than initially meets your ear. listen to it thirty times and you start seeing the layers.

j
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Old 04-18-2006, 07:09 PM
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Default Re: John Bonham

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Originally Posted by NUTHA JASON
well yes...it does depend on the piece. listen to the intro to 'bonzo's montreaux'.

there is a lot more going on there than initially meets your ear. listen to it thirty times and you start seeing the layers.

j

ya i can definatly hear layers even throughout the whole track
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Old 04-18-2006, 08:09 PM
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Default Re: John Bonham

can anybody play candy store rock?
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Old 04-19-2006, 05:06 AM
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Default Re: John Bonham

Hey, you know, I think I was wrong yesterday with that Rock and Roll intro. Playing through it today with the album just would not line up at the end. I think Frankinj had it correct when he said he thinks it should begin on the and of 3. The other really embarrassing mistake was that I was hearing the crash on the and of 4. It's really on the downbeat of the first bar. Sorry about that too.

Not that it matters to people who are playing the intro completely by ear, but in case anyone is using the music too, I don't want to mislead anyone. Here's what I think is a more accurate representation:



Also, I experimented with playing the entire intro with locked hands and it works just fine (like Franklinj mentioned the MD transcription suggested). I still like the non-locked hands as I have it above and I still hear it that way on the recording, but you know, I could be wrong about that too...
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Old 04-19-2006, 04:50 PM
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Default Re: John Bonham

Quote:
Originally Posted by NUTHA JASON
well yes...it does depend on the piece. listen to the intro to 'bonzo's montreaux'.

there is a lot more going on there than initially meets your ear. listen to it thirty times and you start seeing the layers.

j
I wasn't implying that the music is in any way straightforward, just that it seems like a lot of work, hence the nap :)
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Old 04-20-2006, 06:28 PM
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Default Re: John Bonham

Hey, has anyone worked on "Custard Pie". I really like that tune and it's technically pretty straight ahead (just a little quick footwork here and there), but definitely attainable. Musically, it's excellent as everything just fits together so well and each members' ideas compliment the others.

I was wondering if people would mind going through my transcription below and let me know what they think. I didn't transcribe the whole tune note for note; I just picked key phrases and pulled those off.

One place where I did alter what's being played is in the first kick phrases of the verses (bar 5 of each verse if you're counting). I don't think Bonham plays his bass like I have it indicated, but for me, this fits very well. Also, it's not uncommon at all for him to move things down to the bass drum that other people might play on a higher drum, so I don't think it's an uncharacteristic change for me to make.

For those few phrases, I basically just moved some attacks down to the bass drum to free up my hands for the crashes. I play traditional grip and trying to get quick crashes in on the end of a 16th note string with my left is a real weak and awkward proposition for me right now. Using my bass drum here and there gives me an extra hand to work with so that I can keep my balance and still feel like the idea is flowing and still keep my rights and lefts alternating nicely.

The other thing I don't have that I think I hear are slight ride pattern variations. I think I hear an occasional double here and there (16th notes) on the HH. He does this type of thing on alot of tunes (you can even see it on the live footage in Good Times and such) and I think he's doing it here too. It's something that you hear Clyde Stubblefield and Jabb'o Starks start doing in their later stuff that they still do today, so I think it's natural for Bonham to be doing it. I'll add those little varions later as I experiment with them myself and look at them a little closer.

If you want a full-sized version, I have a PDF file available:

Custard Pie - Physical Grafitti

Thanks for any comments/suggestions you can give.


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Last edited by CooManChu; 04-20-2006 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 04-20-2006, 06:43 PM
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Default Re: John Bonham

brilliant. when i get home i'm going to listen and read.

i wish more posts in the drummers sections were about transcripts and methods and tuning and not so much about how much a drummer is the best or fastest. well done coomanchu.
j
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