Virgil Donati

[toteman2]

I'm 25 and have been playing since 8...I remember when i was very young and uneducated and all that would really impress me would be real flashy fast stuff...Thats all totaly changed for me for years...I love EVERY aspect of drumming...I have deep love from Gadd, to Ringo, Glenn Velez, Tony Williams, Alex Acunna, Airto, Bonhman, on and on and on...I watched this video from Sean Rickman last month (who i had never heard of before) and he expressed how certain songs he wrote were not all about chops...The song he played freaking blew me away...It's not even like i have a FAVORITE drummer to say...I think there is just so many differnet sides of drumming to explore are like that i can't have a favorite...

With all that said, i still don't mind talking about Donati...In my experiences, and IMO he is as complete a drummer as you get...Like I've said he has everthing in his playing that i want from feel, to chops, to groove, to complete independence, to understanding of music, to total clarity of notes...He impresses me the most out of any drummer I've ever sceen...This is just how i see things...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by NUTHA JASON

great post finn.
i'm in agreement. i like simple musical solos with occasional flare rather than all flare solos with occasional musicality. one has only to look at the drum battle between weckl gadd and coulita on DW to see what i mean. weckl and coulita are flaring a lot... and then gadd comes in with a lovely groove (not simple, mind you) but in the context of what was comming before it is like a breath of fresh air.

the way i picture it, if you don't mind the spacial analogy, all the possible things that can be done on drums are like a vast flat plane. in the very center are the basic grooves like four-on-the-floor and clasical jazz riding. this is the green oasis. around these are ever more interesting but less used grooves, rudiments and figures. as we walk out of the oasis the trees of useful drumming ideas thin out into the grass and bush of the extraordinary and then into the wasteland of what is possible but not necessarily loveable. guys like virgil and bozzio are the explorers in the desert. they make tracks into the unknown and increase the realm of the oasis but they don't always find diamonds and water. it is nice to know that they are out there but better to watch them slogging in the sand from the cool of the trees. where they go others follow and plant but the further from the oasis the less likely that the harvest will grow healthy.

j

This was very well said...and need I remind everyone what this post was about (what is quoted here reminded me of my main point). I suppose you can't really look at Virgil the same as other guys. HE'S the guy trying something new, and pushing the envelope...NOT these "groove" players, and you have to understand that. One of my favorite things about Virgil himself is that he doesn't sound the same now as he did last year, or the year before that, etc etc

. I see a lot of guys bash Virgil Donati, and I mean a LOT...and i don't understand it! It almost sounds like an excuse to not have to practice, or take down those guys who do because "I'll never be as good as them technically, so I'll attack them artistically"...the guy has so much musicallity that is just over the top of the average persons head...but I find his drumming to be beautiful. I will admit that the clinic videos that have been circulating around lately with the independence adn stuff ARE quite boring (albeit impressive) but look at some of his old stuff like the MOntreal drum fest 97 stuff...it's like poetry on the drums. He almost looks like he's doing martial arts, and his body movements are SO expressive.

In ten years from now people will start to appreciate Virgil, just like all those old Weckl/Coliauta bashers appreciate them now because what they did back then is now a little more common among drummers...or at least understandable to most.

And on the topic about Virgil's technique...I've actually talked to a few professional drummers in my time about Virgil. One guy from Vancouver (gary grace) actually did a drum duo with him, and said that his technique is over the top (I don't remember the exact words, but I think "near perfect" was used), so whatever you want to say about Virgil's technique is up to you, but your opinion is miniscule to me compared with Gary's. And he doesn't get bounce on the toms? Go re-watch whatever video that gave you that impression...and the VOLUME and DYNAMICS...ok I really have to stop or else I'll go on forever

[finnhiggins]

Originally Posted by Adam

This was very well said...and need I remind everyone what this post was about (what is quoted here reminded me of my main point). I suppose you can't really look at Virgil the same as other guys. HE'S the guy trying something new, and pushing the envelope...NOT these "groove" players, and you have to understand that. One of my favorite things about Virgil himself is that he doesn't sound the same now as he did last year, or the year before that, etc etc

. I see a lot of guys bash Virgil Donati, and I mean a LOT...and i don't understand it! It almost sounds like an excuse to not have to practice, or take down those guys who do because "I'll never be as good as them technically, so I'll attack them artistically"...the guy has so much musicallity that is just over the top of the average persons head...

There's a couple of quite arguable points in there. I don't think that Virgil is the one pushing the envelope, or rather - I don't think he's pushing the right envelope. To my ears, he is to the great, genre-defining drummers of the past (or even present) what a modern-day mountain climber is to somebody like Captain Cook. In one fairly small area he's managing to do a lot of extremely detailed exploration which must be quite rewarding both for him personally and for other people deeply immersed in the highly specialised area of, say, double kick technique. But when it comes to actually expanding the world of drumming in a useful way... he's not doing it for me.

I actually do think there are "groove players" out there who are expanding drumming much more than he is, I'd offer Matt Chamberlain as an example. He's taking everything that used to look like a threat to expressive drummers - loops, drum machines, studio-perfect timing and dynamics - and turning it into a weapon he can use to make himself even more awesome. Plus he has great chops, even if he's not a Donati-esque soloist. So no, I don't have to understand that the "Groove guys" are sitting still while Donati rages ahead into the future - I think you're wrong. From my perspective he's more of an Yngwie Malmsteen - popular for a while, but it'll fade once enough people realise that what he's doing just not really musically applicable in any style. Or at least, not applicable without turning the music itself into a house for virtuosic show-off playing that doesn't appeal to anybody other than a rapidly shrinking crowd of chop-heads, very few of whom are attractive or female.

I don't like his stuff. But seriously - it's not to do with his technique. I don't have anything much against Thomas Lang or Grant Collins, or indeed Vinnie Colaiuta, Buddy Rich, Nat Townsley or any others amoung the millions of drummers I can't keep up with in terms of chops. I just have a serious dislike of what he does as a musician, and that's been true since I first saw one of his videos back in the 1990s.

And hell yes, I'm envious - I would love to have his chops. But that doesn't discredit my points - I would also love to have Matt Chamberlain's chops, yet you don't see me up in arms about the guy. Ditto virtually any of the other guys with a page on Drummerworld. If you want to make an analogy to Vinnie, where's Donati's "Ten Summoner's Tales"? Or, indeed, his "Joe's Garage"?

[Clark]

They are TOTALLY different players.

__________________________________________________ __________

By the way, what's with "white" guy?
Nothing to do with drumming. white, red , black, green... just listen to the playing and don't worry about the color. That crap never ends. It should.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by finnhiggins

There's a couple of quite arguable points in there. I don't think that Virgil is the one pushing the envelope, or rather - I don't think he's pushing the right envelope. To my ears, he is to the great, genre-defining drummers of the past (or even present) what a modern-day mountain climber is to somebody like Captain Cook. In one fairly small area he's managing to do a lot of extremely detailed exploration which must be quite rewarding both for him personally and for other people deeply immersed in the highly specialised area of, say, double kick technique. But when it comes to actually expanding the world of drumming in a useful way... he's not doing it for me.

I actually do think there are "groove players" out there who are expanding drumming much more than he is, I'd offer Matt Chamberlain as an example. He's taking everything that used to look like a threat to expressive drummers - loops, drum machines, studio-perfect timing and dynamics - and turning it into a weapon he can use to make himself even more awesome. Plus he has great chops, even if he's not a Donati-esque soloist. So no, I don't have to understand that the "Groove guys" are sitting still while Donati rages ahead into the future - I think you're wrong. From my perspective he's more of an Yngwie Malmsteen - popular for a while, but it'll fade once enough people realise that what he's doing just not really musically applicable in any style. Or at least, not applicable without turning the music itself into a house for virtuosic show-off playing that doesn't appeal to anybody other than a rapidly shrinking crowd of chop-heads, very few of whom are attractive or female.

I don't like his stuff. But seriously - it's not to do with his technique. I don't have anything much against Thomas Lang or Grant Collins, or indeed Vinnie Colaiuta, Buddy Rich, Nat Townsley or any others amoung the millions of drummers I can't keep up with in terms of chops. I just have a serious dislike of what he does as a musician, and that's been true since I first saw one of his videos back in the 1990s.

And hell yes, I'm envious - I would love to have his chops. But that doesn't discredit my points - I would also love to have Matt Chamberlain's chops, yet you don't see me up in arms about the guy. Ditto virtually any of the other guys with a page on Drummerworld. If you want to make an analogy to Vinnie, where's Donati's "Ten Summoner's Tales"? Or, indeed, his "Joe's Garage"?

Actually, I'm glad to see a relavent and mature response to this. I do see a lot of your point, and even I haven't really SEEN virgil do anything TOO much outside of "his" personal style...I still think what I think, but thank you for a realistic response

I like the Yngwie Malmsteen parallel you draw up there. I've recently begun to explore guitarists as musicians a bit (don't worry, I'm no good at the guitar, so I'm not going to stop playing as a result) and I got my hands on G3: Live at Denver. Of Satriani, Malmsteen and Vai I personally enjoyed Satch the most.

However, after over an hour of music I sat back and went over Malmsteen's performance in my head. I just realised how utterly over-the-top and unmusical it actually was. Technically brilliant, absolutely, and I can appreciate that. His neck speed is incredible (I would argue Satch has him in that department though) but there just seemed to be no musical end to his technical virtuosity.

That's how I feel when I hear say, Virgil. And don't get me wrong, I have utter respect for the guy, if I could play drums a fifth as well as him I'd be very happy with myself. However I find some of his playing unlistenable. Like Malmsteen. It's like I could sit back, listen and then afterwards say 'Wow; that was amazing, now when does the music begin?'

Personally I'd rather listen to an expressive guitarist who has technical flaws (alá Hendrix, it can be argued) than a technically perfect guitarist with no idea of musical context (alá Malmsteen) but the same is true. I have utter respect for the guy, even if sometimes he acts like an idiot...

Not meaning to rub anyone up the wrong way, just my biased and bigoted opinion as usual.

[CarterB_Junkie]

Just to add something in the debate could Virgil has his Ten SUmmoner's Tale in the current music scene ?

Which artist would be able to use Virgil ( or any other monster chop drummer) in a technical and musical way as Sting and Zappa did with Colaiuta or Corea and Paul Simon with Gadd ???

The thing that saddens me in the current pop rock music scene is that nobody has musical ambitions regarding drumming especially !
Thomas Lang has played with a Spice Girl but in this context can he creates a memorable drum part or groove : difficult I would say !
That's why I cherish the Dave Matthews Band because it is basically rock played by Jazz musicians and Dave lets his musicians express themselves especially live, have you seen Carter Beauford in a live context, the guy totally ripps without forgetting the groove (people are dancing DURING his solos goddammit, can Virgil do this ????).
That's why Sting's first albums with Omar Hakim, Manu Katché and Vinnie Colaiuta were amazing because it was a real musical collaboration between Sting and its drummers.
In DMB, Carter creates amazing grooves and parts that are always musical and sometimes quite technical, the guy is for me the perfect balance between groove and over the top playing !

Maybe I am mistaking but what pop rock album in the last 5 years featured a real good drummming performance ( maybe Abe Laboriel Jr with Vanessa Carlton but it wasn't Sting's caliber anyway )

Virgil Donati with Soul Sirkus had very mundane rock beats not particularely creative or original but it was still good.
I ve felt anything in listening Virgil parts except the OMG did he really do that ???
I agree that Vinnie 's performance in Ten Summoner's tale is one fo the most musical, tasteful, subtely technical I know ! He lays down the groove so beautifully on this one !
He uses his incredible chops in the most musical way, I am still waiting for Virgil to do the exact same thing but he's capable I am sure .

[lowender]

what a post!
to offer up my two penneth I'd just like to say, firstly of all this technical s**** for technical s****** sake who do you know that listens (with love and regularity) to say steve vai who isn't a guitar player? same goes for any of these techno psycho's (on any other instrument).
For c****** sake when will people as a whole see that music is music (and in my mind one of the single most important things we have as a species) the great universal language! and technique is simply a way (or part there of) of being able to create this fantastic art form.
I for a start can't play a lot of great grooves (john bonham springs immediately to mind for now and copeland and mitch too) currently as in my 12 months of playing I haven't yet gathered all the technique required for playing them.
I am however proficient on the guitar and bass so I do consider myself able to stand up and voice my opinion on this technique/musicality matter.
During my practice of guitar I favour hendrix over vai for example. with the bass george porter jnr. (the meters) over bill the buddha dickens, just 2 examples.
there are some players who have great technique and their music is fantastic, there are others who have terrible technique but who are/were phenomenally musical.
its a means to an end surely although sometimes can very easily be bypassed but still get great results (curt cobain, stevie wonder(drumwise), john frusicante for example all of which great musicians but not necessarily great technicians).
if any of you crowd are happy in your little worlds of blazing chops with your cd collections full of speed techno and pictures of ugly and pasty people on your walls then all the power in the world to you. HOWEVER don't you dare call it music.
There's a reason my missus/my dad/the bloke up the road would not listen to a virgil donati cd. a yngwie malmsteen cd etc.
It's because musically it is s***.
I'm not saying you can't enjoy it for whatever it is, of course you can its a free world and long be it, but don't come on here w******* off that just because somebody can play at 12 zillion beats per minutes for some reason justifies them an entry into the grandest musical echelons.
If you want to play musical, be musical. technique is only the taxi ride to the airport, there's still a lot miles to travel before you get to where you want to be if being a musicians where its at.
I know from my current novice state on the drums that all I'm interested in is laying it down and being able to play the right thing at the right time. If a piece of music calls for a ludicrously fast roll across the drumkit then fair do's I need to learn that but the most important thing is making people playing around me and listening in the audience think "jesus this feels good!".
james brown did it, steve jordan does it, the beatles did it, the list goes on. suffice it to say though that music is the most important thing in music, or have we forgotten that?
finally, in my personal opinion Virgil Donati is the Virgil Donati of HIS time, Buddy Rich is the drumming genius of OUR time.

[sound zap]

If you compare one Modern day drummer to the likes of Buddy Rich I would have to say Dennis Chambers is the man

[Aidan]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion BUT!! at least make comments that are backed up woth SOME truth and logic. The narrowminded thinking at times is baffling to me. First off Virg is like Malmsteen, really? how many different Cats from different genre's of music has and is Malmsteen playing with? Maybe that is why Virg is knocking them dead down at the Potato playing with the likes of Mitch Forman, Philpot, Gary Meeks, Wiengart, Brunel,
MaCalpine, Dean Taba, the list goes on and on. The guy plays with the cream of the crop in the Jazz-fusion world on a regular basis in half a dozen different setting's. He then can go on tour and Rock the House with the likes of Neal Schon and Marco Mendoza then he can go and record with Allan Holdsworth on one album Bunny Brunel on another and with member's of Toto on yet another and can lay down a few tracks for a movie soundtrack in his spare time and why not throw in a clinic in front of 500 people.

Yeah that sound's like Malmsteen to Me, good grief the lack of knowledge some people have. And then he can make guy's like Vinnie Colaiuta and Dave Weckl cream their pants during a clinic, how do I know I have been there and seen it. It is quite funny because guy's like Vinnie and Weckl and Simon Phillip's and Dennis Chamber's, Steve Smith were RAVING!! about this guy and praising him openly back in the early nineties when he was still in Australia recording HIT! pop, rock and R&B records. Yeah that is right that is what he did years ago. The guy was part of some of the biggest touring acts and records in Aussie land, been there and done it.

Some people see him in his Ultra-Extreme solo mode and they make quick snap judgements without knowing the truth at all concerning an artists true musical history. Keep the opinion's to the distinct example and stay away form vague uninformed generalizations. Like I said you can like or not like the extreme drumming or a certain genre of music or a style of playing but to say that is what he or another is limited to or THAT! expression of drumming is not musical or relevant when it is to MANY is simply subjective boloney. One man's cup of tea is another man's poison. We can talk about good and bad technique all day long but what is musical is to the ear and eye of the Beholder. Guess what, some guy's like Virg play what they play because it is what they WANT! to do, yes that is right it is a conscious choice, he is not forced to do it. The Man is driven to do what has not been done, like it or not it is HIS choice. I do not think he is losing sleep becasue he has not played with Sting and done the follow up to Ten Summoner's Tales, as if that makes him relevant in the music world. Like I said I think the deep respect and admiration from his peers matter's more.

And yeah I am sure Virg will just fade away real quick, since he has had the respect and admiration of the greatest musicians in the world for almost twenty years and has been in about every type of musical situation for over twenty years and his popularity just keep's on growing. Yeah sounds like he is near being irrelevant anytime soon. He is not just at the forefront of breaking down drumming's barriers technically and creatively he has been THERE! where many would love to be and has done it already in about every musical context possible.

[toteman2]

Originally Posted by Aidan

Everyone is entitled to their opinion BUT!! at least make comments that are backed up woth SOME truth and logic. The narrowminded thinking at times is baffling to me. First off Virg is like Malmsteen, really? how many different Cats from different genre's of music has and is Malmsteen playing with? Maybe that is why Virg is knocking them dead down at the Potato playing with the likes of Mitch Forman, Philpot, Gary Meeks, Wiengart, Brunel,
MaCalpine, Dean Taba, the list goes on and on. The guy plays with the cream of the crop in the Jazz-fusion world on a regular basis in half a dozen different setting's. He then can go on tour and Rock the House with the likes of Neal Schon and Marco Mendoza then he can go and record with Allan Holdsworth on one album Bunny Brunel on another and with member's of Toto on yet another and can lay down a few tracks for a movie soundtrack in his spare time and why not throw in a clinic in front of 500 people.

Yeah that sound's like Malmsteen to Me, good grief the lack of knowledge some people have. And then he can make guy's like Vinnie Colaiuta and Dave Weckl cream their pants during a clinic, how do I know I have been there and seen it. It is quite funny because guy's like Vinnie and Weckl and Simon Phillip's and Dennis Chamber's, Steve Smith were RAVING!! about this guy and praising him openly back in the early nineties when he was still in Australia recording HIT! pop, rock and R&B records. Yeah that is right that is what he did years ago. The guy was part of some of the biggest touring acts and records in Aussie land, been there and done it.

Some people see him in his Ultra-Extreme solo mode and they make quick snap judgements without knowing the truth at all concerning an artists true musical history. Keep the opinion's to the distinct example and stay away form vague uninformed generalizations. Like I said you can like or not like the extreme drumming or a certain genre of music or a style of playing but to say that is what he or another is limited to or THAT! expression of drumming is not musical or relevant when it is to MANY is simply subjective boloney. One man's cup of tea is another man's poison. We can talk about good and bad technique all day long but what is musical is to the ear and eye of the Beholder. Guess what, some guy's like Virg play what they play because it is what they WANT! to do, yes that is right it is a conscious choice, he is not forced to do it. The Man is driven to do what has not been done, like it or not it is HIS choice. I do not think he is losing sleep becasue he has not played with Sting and done the follow up to Ten Summoner's Tales, as if that makes him relevant in the music world. Like I said I think the deep respect and admiration from his peers matter's more.

And yeah I am sure Virg will just fade away real quick, since he has had the respect and admiration of the greatest musicians in the world for almost twenty years and has been in about every type of musical situation for over twenty years and his popularity just keep's on growing. Yeah sounds like he is near being irrelevant anytime soon. He is not just at the forefront of breaking down drumming's barriers technically and creatively he has been THERE! where many would love to be and has done it already in about every musical context possible.

Yeah but he doesn't play in 4/4 enough, and he uses alot of metric modulation and plays alot of notes so he has no feel or groove...LOL...

AMEN dude....you should've came around a while ago so i didn't waiste so much time banging my head agaist the wall...Virgil is da Man...

[Funkifized]

Originally Posted by Aidan

Everyone is entitled to their opinion BUT!! at least make comments that are backed up woth SOME truth and logic. The narrowminded thinking at times is baffling to me. First off Virg is like Malmsteen, really? how many different Cats from different genre's of music has and is Malmsteen playing with? Maybe that is why Virg is knocking them dead down at the Potato playing with the likes of Mitch Forman, Philpot, Gary Meeks, Wiengart, Brunel,
MaCalpine, Dean Taba, the list goes on and on. The guy plays with the cream of the crop in the Jazz-fusion world on a regular basis in half a dozen different setting's. He then can go on tour and Rock the House with the likes of Neal Schon and Marco Mendoza then he can go and record with Allan Holdsworth on one album Bunny Brunel on another and with member's of Toto on yet another and can lay down a few tracks for a movie soundtrack in his spare time and why not throw in a clinic in front of 500 people.

Yeah that sound's like Malmsteen to Me, good grief the lack of knowledge some people have. And then he can make guy's like Vinnie Colaiuta and Dave Weckl cream their pants during a clinic, how do I know I have been there and seen it. It is quite funny because guy's like Vinnie and Weckl and Simon Phillip's and Dennis Chamber's, Steve Smith were RAVING!! about this guy and praising him openly back in the early nineties when he was still in Australia recording HIT! pop, rock and R&B records. Yeah that is right that is what he did years ago. The guy was part of some of the biggest touring acts and records in Aussie land, been there and done it.

Some people see him in his Ultra-Extreme solo mode and they make quick snap judgements without knowing the truth at all concerning an artists true musical history. Keep the opinion's to the distinct example and stay away form vague uninformed generalizations. Like I said you can like or not like the extreme drumming or a certain genre of music or a style of playing but to say that is what he or another is limited to or THAT! expression of drumming is not musical or relevant when it is to MANY is simply subjective boloney. One man's cup of tea is another man's poison. We can talk about good and bad technique all day long but what is musical is to the ear and eye of the Beholder. Guess what, some guy's like Virg play what they play because it is what they WANT! to do, yes that is right it is a conscious choice, he is not forced to do it. The Man is driven to do what has not been done, like it or not it is HIS choice. I do not think he is losing sleep becasue he has not played with Sting and done the follow up to Ten Summoner's Tales, as if that makes him relevant in the music world. Like I said I think the deep respect and admiration from his peers matter's more.

And yeah I am sure Virg will just fade away real quick, since he has had the respect and admiration of the greatest musicians in the world for almost twenty years and has been in about every type of musical situation for over twenty years and his popularity just keep's on growing. Yeah sounds like he is near being irrelevant anytime soon. He is not just at the forefront of breaking down drumming's barriers technically and creatively he has been THERE! where many would love to be and has done it already in about every musical context possible.

Amen to that as well. Some people should just get over it already... musicality is subjective. I find it musical and I understand, while some people can't. Simple as that. I've learned to accept it. All I wanna do, is enjoy what other drummers have to offer instead of bringing them down with my half-assed 'opinions'.

[the rich]

My two favourite drummers are...

Virgil Donati
John Stanier

One for unbelievable "chops" and sheer technical ability and the other for aggressive and memorable, yet relatively simple, drum tracks.

Different strokes for different folks, and all that.

For old time's sake I popped on Planet X - Moonbabies and although the music itself is horrid IMO, the drumming is sensational, and that is the reason I bought it, it gave me alot of inspiration which coupled with the inspiration from other drummers, coming from a different place is no bad thing!

Who says Virgil can't groove? He most certainly can, just check out track 9's intro (Midnight Bell) on this album, he just prefers to blow your mind!

[PdoubleE]

Hey Guys im new to drummerworld.. and its by far the best forum yet. Virgil Donati is surley an incredible player, but i totaly understand how you think hes all showy chops. There is two types of musicians in my book ones that have the gift and can play great from day one... and the one who cant really play at first, but have a passion to play and learns everything he can to become great. The people with the natural gift have the ability to groove. there just naturals at it. The people who strive to become great didnt have that ability to groove at first and were taught by the book. I believe, from what i have seen and heard, that self taught "naturals" just have more of a feel for music and there is soo much more emotion behind it.
People who were taught by the book just sound like they are playing by the book without the emotion in it. Yeah they are incredible by theory standards but they just dont have the same feel. I know there is exceptions but for the most part this is what i have noticed. just my 2 cents for ya

[Aidan]

Well I would say that some people are more naturally gifted with great technique and being able to perform very complex pieces and some are more naturally gifted with feel and a great ear and some have both of it.

[toteman2]

Originally Posted by Scatman

GazzaScotland hurt my ears with that statement ha ha
Do most drummers put Virgil in Buddy Rich's rank guys?

Remember the original comparrison was not in "styles" of playing but the comparrison drawn was "how far they are ahead of eveyonelse"...Back in the day Buddy was considered by many to be the most advanced drummer in the world...By todays standards alot considerd Virgil to be the most advanced drummer in the world...

[0neyellowdrum]

If I could ask just one question to those who consider... drummers have groove or drummers have chops... it would be: Why does it have to be either or ?
I think this thread has shown that opinions about what groove is and who has it is as varied as there are listeners of it. Same with chops. It appears no one here is debating whether Virgil has or doesn't have chops....no posts I have read have disputed his chops only the degree of chops compared to other drummers. What is disputed is his ability to groove. Does he have groove, how much or how little groove, not as much groove as (insert drummer name here) , he can groove but not with the style of music he chooses to play, etc.
I remember a time in my past when it was rare to find musicians who played jazz who could also play rock and vicy versy. Hard to find classical musicians who could play jazz but not vicy versy. Try finding a classical violinist who can play fiddle in a bluegrass band. It is not impossible it is just rare. What is not rare today is drummers, lots of incredible drummers, who play with incredible chops and groove. They can play the sh*t out of any type of music. Buddy Rich never put himself in a position to play Hard Rock and I have my doubts whether he could have pulled if off if he had. Nor did Louie. But drummers of today can and do. Is Virgil one? Yes I think so.

[Aidan]

Music is so ridiculously subjective it is waste of time saying if one play's fewer notes then that is musical, it is absurd. Not that one who play's faster is more adapt at being musical. But please can we get away from the worn out and tired cliche's of oh that guy groove's so hard because he play's fewer notes therefore he is musical, what a load of you know what. No one even really know's what Groove is. You get 10,000 diffeent point's of view. IMO and only my opinion something groove's whether it be the drum parts or the guitar, bass etc. if it FIT'S with the overlall vision of the tune if it is blending and complementing the rest of the band. If the song call's for complexity of rhythm and many notes and precision than so be it if the tune call's for simplicity than great but neither one groove's more than the other. I sure do not want to hear a half time shuffle when a song calls for an outrageous double bass ostinato with some fancy handwork over the top. Nor do I want to hear the opposite. I understand that trait's such as taste, touch, and creativity affect groove and musicality but it is still very subjective.

We can debate proper and improper technique and what is real technical prowess all day long with more productiveness. But debating what is musical and what groove's is very much in the air. We all simply like what we like. What is rubbish to one is beauty to another. We all internally connect to what suit's our desire's and taste's. And just to reiterate the main point of this thread Virgil can perform convincingly in most styles of music with equal proficiency when and if he feels like but I sure do not think he is losing any sleep over what we think, he is too busy being GREAT!

[NUTHA JASON]

agreed.
while i sit here i popped on Steve Gadd up close DVD. and saw there was a bonus footage section that showed virgil. and i say this...anyone who thinks the man is incapable of anything as simple as grooving is a fool. its just that what he does is sometimes somewhere on the other side of groove. when needed the man can groove...its ludicrous to believe anything else.
j

Originally Posted by NUTHA JASON

agreed.
while i sit here i popped on Steve Gadd up close DVD. and saw there was a bonus footage section that showed virgil. and i say this...anyone who thinks the man is incapable of anything as simple as grooving is a fool. its just that what he does is sometimes somewhere on the other side of groove. when needed the man can groove...its ludicrous to believe anything else.
j

You have just slaughtered the inane arguments against Virgil that he can't groove. I still say, that people who slam professional drummers do so out of envy for thier ability, and personal insecurity. I just lack respect for those who make it a point to denegrate great drummers.

Alex Duthart.

Thinshells - If it were true that I and others only choose to denigrate drummers because we are envious of their ability, and/or have personal insecurities, then it follows we would do the same for all massively successful and influential drummers, no? Virgil is well-known in the drumming community, but is not, as we have seen, respected by all. Drummers like Vinnie, Gadd, and Porcaro are or were massively respected by nearly everone who plays drums, and have contributed so much to popular music that their fame extends well beyond the drumming family. So why don't I have bad things to say about these guys? Why don't I come on here and try to convince people the Gadd can't groove? Hmmm, I wonder....

I AM envious of Vinnie, and I AM envious of Gadd, but I do not slag them off. I don't have much time for Virgil, I don't have much respect for him, and so I will say negative things about his playing. Doesn't that make more sense than your position?

The arguments that Virgil can't groove are far from inane. People who say he can't groove are not fools. I painstakingly explained my position in a previous post which now I can't see....maybe it was in the Thomas Lang thread instead. When someone assures me he can groove, I can only assume their ear is not as sensitive as mine. I don't want this to become personal, but if I am going to be called a fool for my position, I think it's fair to defend myself.

I fail to see how J expressing his belief that Virgil can groove 'slaughters' anyone's argument to the contrary. And this tired old line of 'He can groove, he just plays stuff you can't understand' is really getting annoying. Finn has argued against this previously. It is actually the knowledgeable people who do understand the crazy stuff he plays that aren't wowed into declaring him a genius, because we can see through it. I saw Virgil playing in the Baked Potato, attempting to groove at a medium 4/4 tempo. It sounded HORRIBLE.

[Bernhard]

Ok Ok Ok
Not very long long long time ago in a hour of really depression I deleted a whole Virgil Donati and a Thomas Lang thread here in the Forum (Rude Founder Power!!!!)

There are so many different animals in nature, so why comparing bears with tigers or cats with dog? Why not taking from every drummer what you like and going down to the practice room and improve a little?

Take it as fact:

- Virgil can groove like hell!!! Yes, of course - haaaa (more than 99.9% of us all)
- Steve Gadd can play anything - also Planet X stuff - haaaa haaa - of course!!!!
- Thomas Lang can also play anything - of course!!!!!
- of course all three deserve their place at Drummerworld - haa

So what?

I had the rare chance to hang out with exactly those three and some more at PASIC. Steve attended the Virgil Clinic and was blown away, Virgil attended the Steve Gadd clinic and was blown away too. Thomas did'nt play, but was blown away too.

And all three were blown away by TERREON GULLY!!!!! Watch this guy!!

Bernhard

So what?

I had the rare chance to hang out with exactly those three and some more at PASIC. Steve attended the Virgil Clinic and was blown away, Virgil attended the Steve Gadd clinic and was blown away too. Thomas did'nt play, but was blown away too.

And all three were blown away by TERREON GULLY!!!!! Watch this guy!!

Bernhard

NOW THIS is what Im talking about.....you CAN learn something from EVERYONE.....Just keep open....good post Bern

[finnhiggins]

Originally Posted by Bernhard

There are so many different animals in nature, so why comparing bears with tigers or cats with dog?

Just for the record:

Tigers are cooler than bears.
Bears are tougher than dogs.
Dogs smell worse than cats.

This is not an opinion. This is a mathematically proven FACT!

(Sorry, went all L. Ron for a minute there..)

[toteman2]

I think my position on Virgil's groove ability is well known so I won't even get into it...As far as the respect for Virgil in the drumming communtiy? The only dis-respect I've sceen of him comes from a handfull of people who comment on message boards, and thats pretty much it...I find it very awkward, that one of the most well know clinicians and studio drummers in world (who supposedly can't groove) would show up at clinics worldwide and explain the "developement of groove", and then demonstrate it to standing ovations...

[Aidan]

Thank's Bernhard for that much needed insight. The fact is some people think that their opinion about what is musical and what groove's is ABSOLUTE! I would like to know when did they get together and decide that their opinion is THE TRUTH! When will some people wake up and figure out that they made up their mind's about what suit's them long ago and anything that does not follow suit is not up to par for them. What absolute arrogance and worse off flat out foolishness. I will say it again it is SOME of those who sit at home and wish they were actually making a REAL mark in the drumming and music world and want to be admired by those relevant that make the outrageous comment's about someone not being able to groove or play music. But it is guy's like Virg, Vinnie, Gadd, Minneman, Smith, Lang, Weckl, Bozzio, Phillip's the list goes on and on who all have tremendous admiration for one another and are actually telling the truth when they give Praise to one another. I myself have been in company of Vinnie, Smith, Horacio, Bozzio, Mangini and other's while watching Virg and have gotten a kick out of them being truly blown away by the Man's playing. And then watching Virg, Smith and Mangini hang while being truly moved by Vinnie's performance. Their humility and respect for eachother is truly moving.

Again for those who have a hard time accepting the truth. Virg is admired, respected and held in HIGH regard(and has been for years) by those who truly have left a lasting and positive mark in the drumming world.

[Waugh]

For all lovers of guitars, of a mélange of styles, and of Music, don't miss the International Guitar Festival of Nérac, in south-west France, February 24-26, 2006.

The lineup :

- CAB BAND : Bunny Brunel, Tony MacAlpine, Virgil Donati and Steve Weingart

- Natural High Trio : Frank Gambale, Alain Caron and Otmaro Ruiz

- Ferenc Snétberger and Markus Stockhausen

- Nabil Khalidi, Thierry Colson and Khalid Kouhen

- Forestare


An outstanding lineup in more ways than one, if only because of the European debut of the all-star band CAB BAND. The festival will welcome legendary musicians such as Virgil Donati, Bunny Brunel and Tony MacAlpine, as well as Frank Gambale and Alain Caron.

Do not miss the master classes, a stringed instruments and equipment exposition, and free fringe events, among other delights.

For information and reservations: www.festivalguitar.com

[jonny]

sweet! CAB playing on this side of the Atlantic. i'm in london but am seriously considering getting to France for this.

is there a website for the festival?

and if Virgil can't groove, then why did he replace Dennis (universally considered to have one of the deepest pockets in the world) in CAB? i think his playing is brilliant with CAB.

I don't think everyone realises what Virgil is doing in his clinics. clinics are aimed at drummers. it's not necessarily a performance based purely on musically. clinics are about the sharing of technical knowledge, and playing tips, and in virgil's clinics he's displaying his technique and talent. I don't think there's anything wrong with this, as it's not your average concert. they are like one big drum lesson.

and i wish people would lay off Virgil. The impression I get is that he gets all the stick for his technical playing, whereas other players in his genre (mangini, lang, minnemann etc) get let off the hook. why is there so much negative feeling towards him? it's almost seems like some people want to punish him for exploring the boundaries of the instrument, and discovering what can be done with four limbs.

[jonny]

sorry. got so excited there i missed the link in your post! cheers for the info

[Waugh]

You're welcome ! 'Hope you'll come ! ;)

[Aidan]

Jonny you brought up a great point about yeah he does get alot of crap thrown his way for being to extreme and over the top as compared to the other's(fact is he has established the genre of extreme drumming more than any other drummer by far) but I can guarantee this, he is playing with a more diverse group of musicians in more diverse musical setting's than any of the other guy's mentioned BY FAR! And the honest truth is that his playing is more diverse than MOST drummer's who are fairly well known or very well known. And the guy's who rip on him WISH! yeah that is right they wish they could play with 1/10 of the guy's that Virg plays with on a regular basis. Talk is cheap. Virg does not have to talk and does not waste his time talking trash about other drummer's and musicians he is too busy tearing it up with the greatest musicians in the world.

[Perky]

I think Virgil Donati plays doubles with his feet better than anyone

Check him out on the MD Festival 1997

[Aidan]

For Virgil fans, this is a short clip of Virgil soloing during his band's performance at NAMM. Virgil was playing with Mitch Forman, Rufus Philpot and Tony Macalpine. There will be much lengthier clips of the bands performance featured at the Pearl site in the very near future.


http://www.youtube.com/?v=Eq-wpsbwv_w

[baddrumming]

Im not easily impressed these days but that was just ridiculous. INSANE! Never seen anything like it and i have seen them all you name them LANG MINNEMANN RABB BOZZIO ERLANDSON etc. SO much energy, so physical, so creative so.....RIDICULOUS is the only word for it!

[NouveauCliche]

Yowza. Virgil's got some chops for sure!! Those high rack toms make for a super cool visual, thanks for posting this man!

There's two comments that kill me that someone near the camerman says. "He has his eyes closed!" and "Sweeping on drums!". Good times. ;-)

If you want to see Virgil REALLY tear it up, buy Steve Vai's "Live At Astoria"...he does this freaking INSANE solo....towards the end he does this thing where he's spinning stick and hitting cymbals and playing a jungle-esque tom beat...probably the coolest visual thing I've ever seen in a drum solo.

[toteman2]

Thanks for posting that new clip. Always great to see new Donati footage. Words can never describe his playing, and man those drums sounded thunderous. Anyone get to witness this performance first hand?

[Tex12]

http://www.pearldrum.com/wnamm-vid-virgil.htm

[Anduin]

The sound quality is so bad it's almost unwatchable. And the poor guy looks like he's in a cage!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Anduin

The sound quality is so bad it's almost unwatchable. And the poor guy looks like he's in a cage!

There almost seems to be some kind of netagivity about Virgil on this board. The sound quality is fine to me

Yes that audio is way over-compressed.. Horrible. But then again, what drum websites actually have well designed and cutting edge web design?

As for the negativity, I used to see it on other threads. Here, I guess its just a matter of taste? I have only seen what few clips are on here to judge. Based on that one, he's obviously skilled. Maybe it's those toms way up in the air that put people in defense mode (kinda gimmicky, don't you think?).

That polyrhythm stuff he does near the 1/3rd mark of the vid is cool (with the constant bass drum pattern, then he changes his hand patterns to demonstrate the different polyrhythmic feels possible).