So is ANYONE capable of drumming?

[deltadrummer1]

Ok this will come across as being silly. But... suppose someone just decided that they wanted to learn to play the drums...and wanted to learn to be a pro....say..like the ace drummer, Dave Weckl !! If that person practiced enough all of the time, could they reach this goal? Obviously, some people are more musically inclined than other people..but do you think it's possible for the 'non-musical' folks to match the skill of a really talented, famous drummer? Maybe it depends if the person wants it bad enough? It's hard for me to believe that anyone...just anyone can learn to play like Weckl or Bobby Jarzombek...or anyone of that calibur...

This is sorta ridiculous...but i was just thinking....

[djp132]

Nature vs. Nurture

Who we are is determined in part by our heredity (nature) and a part of our environment (nurture).

No two combinations can be equal, but many share a remarkable amount of similarities. Work ethic for example, a good ear, accurate time, problem solving and critical thinking skills.

I can never hard practice enough to be Weckl or Jarzombek. All I can do is practice hard enough to be ME.

[TopCat]

May I remind you Meg White is 'pro'.

[finnhiggins]

My assertion is that if anybody practiced like Weckl they could probably get somewhere near being as good as him.

But that's a bit like saying that if anybody was as good as Weckl they could be as good as him - because a lot of what makes these technique-demon guys so capable technically is their ability to focus on technical details for hours and hours, every day, for years. I can't do that. Not to that extent, anyway - I can do maybe three to four hours on technical matters and exercises in a day. Any more and I start to go utterly insane.

The difference between you and me and guys like Bobby, Dave and so forth is probably not that they have some amazing genetic-freak abilities that make them innately able to play like that. If genetics comes into play anywhere I'd suspect it'd have more to do with their ability to focus and specialise to that degree, plus being good learners and having a good eye for detail and nuance.

It's sort of like the whole getting rich thing. The steps required to actually achieve being pretty damn well off financially are not that complex, but only certain kinds of people have the dedication to the idea that they will work through all the obstacles and achieve their goal.

[NUTHA JASON]

hahaha two very good answers cat and derek.

i heard a pro drummer (i can't remember who now) once say that he had to practice for ridiculous amounts of time to get the relatively simple concepts that his peers seemed to absorb with ease. determination is the real nature needed by a drummer...more than talent.

also...easy come, easy go. if you dedicate vast amounts of time in drumming its less likely that you will take it for granted and more likely that you will continue to work on it. like weight loss. people with home gym equipment face a challenge because they have laid out their cash in the beginning and can get off the aparatus any time they like and sink into the couch. but those who pay a monthly gym fee are wracked by the guilt of paying for nothing if they don't go for any length of time...and then when they are at the gym they make the trip worthwhile by drilling themselves through it. so with drumming, putting in the effort increases your determination as your account of time spent increases.

however, there are people who are rhythmically deaf. people who cannot spot the subtle differences in the space between notes. there are also people with real co-ordination disorders. rare and extreem these cases, but there are shades of grey between them and for instance mr.weckl.

j

This is a tough call to make. Who am I to say that anyone person will never reach a specific goal? However, I do feel that there are some people who just get music, and some people who don't. I will never understand bio-chemistry. That's the way it is. But my friend Kelly who is studying bio-chemistry will never understand overtones and thier properties. Some people get it, and some people don't.

[photon]

In a word...NO!

Just as not everyone who picks up a tennis racket will ever be Roger Federer or decides to play hockey will ever be Wayne Gretzky, etc., etc.. Weckl is among the best in the world at what he does.

I would say that with years of dedicated practice we can all become fairly competent players and that is the most the majority of us can ever hope for.

[jamsjr44]

Originally Posted by photon

In a word...NO!

Just as not everyone who picks up a tennis racket will ever be Roger Federer or decides to play hockey will ever be Wayne Gretzky, etc., etc.. Weckl is among the best in the world at what he does.

I would say that with years of dedicated practice we can all become fairly competent players and that is the most the majority of us can ever hope for.

I have to agree, as politically correct as it is to say "you can do anything you set your mind too" unfortunately that is not the case. I equate drumming to golf, which is my other passion and I know guys who have been playing for 20 years and are still 30 handicaps. Just like drumming I know guys who started playing in highschool 19 years ago and still are just slightly better than they were then and they practice. I must say they weren't very good to begin with, but they just love to play. They just do not have a sense of grooving, time keeping or playing for the music first, these concepts are lost on them. I guess the question should be is anyone capable of being a good drummer? More than just drumming, alot of people drum but how many are really good at it?

I saw Mr. Weckl last October and missed him last Thursday in CT, but I am still amazed at watching him play live and how effortless he makes it look.

[deltadrummer1]

Hmm...thanks for the responses guys. I was confused first about some things and for some reason that silly question popped into my mind.. "are people limited?" and "is everyone capable"

Very interesting responses though..

[Fardunda]

FWIW, I believe there are people that will NEVER be able to be as good. Like Nutha Jason said, some people are born rythmically deaf. I believe you can't learn or teach rhythm.....it is just something that ticks inside of you. It's not something that can be rope learned or written down....it's intangible.

Just like the guy who cant dance at a wedding. He can hear the music, but can't FEEL it.

[NUTHA JASON]

yeah. it is an interesting question.

i guess its like sprinting. you can train, under a great coach, take the correct diet and even do steroids...for years. BUT if you are 4foot tall you cannot hope to beat a 6foot athlete. at least that's a physical analogy.

mentally ...hmmm. you could spend 20 years at a leading school with the best teachers and extra classes. you can have a perfect home and school life that will aid your studies and want for nothing in so far as the tools and requirements of a great education is concerned. BUT if you have an IQ of 90 you will not be able to lead the feild in quantum physics one day.

drumming is mental and physical. weckl is the equivalent of lindford christy and steven hawkins. er...lindford's running and steven's mind not the other way around (which ironically would represent the worst of drummers)

j

[FunkTional Art]

Originally Posted by Fardunda

FWIW, I believe there are people that will NEVER be able to be as good. Like Nutha Jason said, some people are born rythmically deaf. I believe you can't learn or teach rhythm.....it is just something that ticks inside of you. It's not something that can be rope learned or written down....it's intangible.

Just like the guy who cant dance at a wedding. He can hear the music, but can't FEEL it.

YES all can learn how to play and perform music if they are willing to do the work.

[NUTHA JASON]

can you back this opinion FunkTional Art? maybe you just haven't yet met someone who is deaf to rhythm.

j

[Jay.B.]

Like Derrek said, it's a case of nature versus nurture.

You can practice every hour god sends on the technicalities of drummimng, but this will only make you a good drummer.

Truly great drummers are born with an abundance of natural talent, and out of those that are born with it, only a few seem to realise their potential and persue this path down the road of hard work and dedication.

so to sumarise:
Talent isn't everything without hard work but hard work won't get you there on it's own

I will never be a great drummer, all I can strive to be is a good drummer

[FunkTional Art]

Originally Posted by NUTHA JASON

can you back this opinion FunkTional Art? maybe you just haven't yet met someone who is deaf to rhythm.

j

Hi, I had written a more in depth post but lost it somehow. Now having said that I can back up this statement through my own experience with my teaching practice. many many time I've had an individual brand new tp drumming who has come to me for instruction yet thay have doubts as to wether they are a candidate for learning drums. When I've taken these students through some basic rythmic concepts and exercises they can hardly play or clap 1/4 notes in a steady time for two bars at 50 - 60 bpm. I tell them what Tom Brechtlein told a room full of us drummers at a clinic he was doing. he said "YOU CAN DO THIS TOO" Please understand what I'm saying here is that Everyone of my students who is williong to put in the work will experience various degrees of success. If they are passionate and self disiplined thay will perform at a competent level.
The bottom line is that you get out of it what you put into it. Everyone has their own learning curve. Not everyone is going tp play like Buddy Rich but then again who of us can, yet we all can experience the joy and art of drumming when we're laying down a 2 beat groove or learning how to play a simple rudimental march. It's all about having serious fun while learning. Isn't that what we all do here on the forum.
Hope this answers and clarifies my staement earlier.

I believe and know that somone can be taught how to listen and grow.

“The key thing that tells you what’s happening
is listening.” Steve Gadd



Best Wishes,

[Finaer]

I think anyone can but some of us are just born with rhythm skills. Like those kids who are shown on some of the videos.

[Auger]

This is an interesting thread.

The first question that came to mind upon reading it is: are we equating 'being a good drummer' with 'having good technique' here?

but, I'm not even going to go there, hee hee (puts devil horns away for a moment). For sake of this thread, I'll assume we're just talking about technique.

I've thought about this a lot over the years and, in terms of technique, I think there is a talent factor, but I think it's a small one. I'd go so far as to say that 80%-90% of what people call talent is really desire. People who are labeled as having a lot of talent are often people who really, really want to be very skilled drummers -not just people who want to to play for fun and love it, but really feel a burning desire to excell at it. it's along the lines of "where there's a will, there's a way," in my opion. If you want that technique bad enough, you'll probably find a way to develop it. (the fellow who was a burn victim and now a successful pro drummer comes to mind -the guy who had to tape the sticks to his hands before several reconstructive surguries. I know there was a post about him on here a while back, but I don't remember his name and couldn't find it. Incredibly inspiring, though.)

Of course there are exceptions -there are the naturally super-gifted and the rhythm deaf, but I think that's the extreme minority. I think people who are completely rhythm deaf are probably about as common as people who are as naturally adept as buddy rich -they're out there, but there are also people out there holding winning lottery tickets. Most of the time, you can assume anyone who just bought a lottery ticket isn't one of those people.

A lot of people have told me that they could never play the drums because they "have no rhythm -I can't dance -I can't even clap in time with music" which I usually respond to with "yes you do, everybody has a natural sense of rhythm" -of course the reply is "oh yeah, well not me." to which I usually ask "really? what's your phone number?" ...and, I always get a response in the perfect phone-number rhythm which, in the US at least, is 1-2-3(rest)4-5-6(rest)7-8-9-10 -why not 1-2(rest)3(rest)4-5-6-7-8(rest)9-10? There's one rhythm they already know. There're other examples too -songs like 'happy birthday' that everyone seems to know the rhythm to, or even walking at a constant speed -not something that could easily be done (or done at all, really) with no sense of rhythm. People just need to learn to get in touch with it and to manipulate that sense they already have.

...aaaanyway, I've rambled on enough here. just thought I'd toss that out on the table.

[geek_boy_in]

Originally Posted by Auger

I usually ask "really? what's your phone number?" ...and, I always get a response in the perfect phone-number rhythm which, in the US at least, is 1-2-3(rest)4-5-6(rest)7-8-9-10 -why not 1-2(rest)3(rest)4-5-6-7-8(rest)9-10? There's one rhythm they already know. There're other examples too -songs like 'happy birthday' that everyone seems to know the rhythm to, or even walking at a constant speed -not something that could easily be done (or done at all, really) with no sense of rhythm. People just need to learn to get in touch with it and to manipulate that sense they already have.

extremely good explanation Auger........

once I had asked one classical trained Veena ( a type of Indian string music instrument) player who had played in the biggest possible places in Chicago/USA..... that why do me and general public find 4/4 rhythms more palatable then odd time signatures ( btw besides 4/4, general people in India like 6/8 signature also very much) .... he responded that he is not sure but maybe because we are exposed to such 4/4 signatures from childhood ........

so in short so called genius' like Trilok Gurtu, Tito Puente et al are what they are because they practiced hard and also they had the good fortune to get exposure to various form of music and rhythm from childhood which shaped their mind ........

probably this explains why Tibetian music is liked by people from Tibet only while westerners do not understand a bit about what is going on ..... (if you haven't heard authentic music from Tibet then hear it .. you will freak out .. ..... am NOT talking about Buddhist hymns in monastaries btw)

[Cavemeister]

I know of no-name drummers who are as good as, if not better, than Dave Weckl. Natural ability is key, but it is also dependent upon lots of experience and practice.

[Class A Drummer]

Originally Posted by deltadrummer1

Ok this will come across as being silly. But... suppose someone just decided that they wanted to learn to play the drums...and wanted to learn to be a pro....say..like the ace drummer, Dave Weckl !! If that person practiced enough all of the time, could they reach this goal? Obviously, some people are more musically inclined than other people..but do you think it's possible for the 'non-musical' folks to match the skill of a really talented, famous drummer? Maybe it depends if the person wants it bad enough? It's hard for me to believe that anyone...just anyone can learn to play like Weckl or Bobby Jarzombek...or anyone of that calibur...

This is sorta ridiculous...but i was just thinking....

Anyone is capable of being an awsome famous drummer (unless they are a vegetable or somthing like that or just incapable of drumming because of the stress on the body). But its not about how long you practice, but how you practice. If you practice for 5 hours a day, but practice poorly, you wont get anywhere. But if practice good material that you are capable of playing (w/ a little work) for one hour, it would be better than 5 hours of bs.

[Fardunda]

Originally Posted by Auger

A lot of people have told me that they could never play the drums because they "have no rhythm -I can't dance -I can't even clap in time with music" which I usually respond to with "yes you do, everybody has a natural sense of rhythm" -of course the reply is "oh yeah, well not me." to which I usually ask "really? what's your phone number?" ...and, I always get a response in the perfect phone-number rhythm which, in the US at least, is 1-2-3(rest)4-5-6(rest)7-8-9-10 -why not 1-2(rest)3(rest)4-5-6-7-8(rest)9-10? There's one rhythm they already know. There're other examples too -songs like 'happy birthday' that everyone seems to know the rhythm to, or even walking at a constant speed -not something that could easily be done (or done at all, really) with no sense of rhythm. People just need to learn to get in touch with it and to manipulate that sense they already have.

Interesting point indeed mate but not really sure that I agree.

I believe that there is a difference between basic coordination and rhythm. I think anyone can rope learn their phone number, it's generally only 7 numbers which is repeated ad-nauseam. Walking is a combination of coordination and maintaining a sense of equilibrium. You don’t need to walk like you are practicing an army drill. Hence, sure someone could practice to become a technically supreme drummer but I believe without that internal sense of rhythm it will be either out of time or totally bereft of any groove or feeling.

A really good friend of mine took up the drums when we were both about 12 years old. He took months worth of lessons and could play different time signatures etc.......technically he was quite good. Playing by himself most people would be quite impressed. However, if I was to come over with a guitar to have a jam it was like banging your head against a brick wall because he had no internal rhythm and hence could not feel when to come in, when to fill and generally was all over the place timing wise. That is where I feel the difference is.

I believe that is the same with singing and people who are tone deaf. I know quite a few of these people.......now you could teach them how to correctly sing by using your diaphram and stomach etc....but that isnt going to get them any closer to feeling and hearing when the note is accurate.

Very interesting discussion!

[jamsjr44]

Originally Posted by Cavemeister

I know of no-name drummers who are as good as, if not better, than Dave Weckl. Natural ability is key, but it is also dependent upon lots of experience and practice.

I will say this to say someone is no-name and better than Weckl is more of an opinion than fact. I love when people say someone is better than someone at something, but they are a no-name? Like guys who say they know golfers who are better than Tiger Woods but aren't on tour? Yeah right.. I'm not saying it isn't a possiblity but being realistic if someone was better than Weckl and in hiding, my next question is why doesn't he or she do something with all that talent?

But getting back to the topic I am a firm believer that not everyone is capable of doing something no matter now much you practice. I know I was born with a good sense of rythym and can pick up almost any songs progression after a listen or two. I think musicians in general who are really good have the ability to play and learn material without having to put a lot of effort into it. I think you must have some type of natural talent when it comes to music as well as the ability to adapt and get better. I look at some of the videos or sound clips of ourselves posted on this forum and in my opinion, there are some very good drummers, some good drummers, some average drummers and some who still need alot of work but we are all drummers and therefore capable of drumming. But people who don't play an instrument don't play for a reason and I'm willing to bet it is because they just know and feel they don't have what it takes and that is okay.

This topic really is a good one and has and will continue to envoke some good responses.

[Stormi]

There are a lot of people who THINK they can't do things, when in fact they are too scared of failure to try, or because they THINK they can't do something, they don't even bother. When I started playing drums, some family were over and I was showing them just the basic rock beat (which was all I could play at the time), and my sister in law said "Oh, I couldn't do that". She'd never sat down at a drum kit in her life, but she somehow knew, or thought she knew, that she couldn't do it. I said to her "I bet you could if you tried".

I was the same with reading music - when I started the drums, I had no idea about reading music - I didn't know what a bar was, or a stave etc, and I was freaking out because it just looked so complicated and I THOUGHT "There's no way I'll ever understand that". But I've perservered, and now I can read music. I'm not great at it, and can only read music that is at the same level as my drumming, but I CAN do it - and it's because I've practiced lots of reading, I sight read pretty much everything I play, even if I know it off by heart, I still read as I play.

I don't know if I have natural talent, but my drum teacher seems to think so. I've wanted to play drums for 20 years, but in that time never took up any other instrument and never really paid attention in music classes at school. So here I was, starting drums at 34 with no real musical background at all, wondering if I would be capable of having the coordination to play, or the ability to learn to read music. 4 months down the track my teacher tells me I am playing things that most people can't after 4 months (I've only had about 8 lessons, I think, as I only go once a fortnight for half an hour). I don't get to practice nearly as much as I would like as I have 3 small children to care for. BUT, I believe I am doing so well because I have the utmost determination to be as good as I can be.

So I think if you have the determination to play well, you will. A lot of people probably have the ability to do well at drums, or sport, or whatever it may be, but give up too easily when it gets hard. I admit to being like that, with things like sport etc, I think "this is too hard' and give up, but only because it's not something I'm overly interested in, so I don't have the same drive and determination for that as I do with playing the drums. If I can't get something with the drums, I keep at it until I can do it.

[RepresentingTheDeaf]

A thread that's running through this thread:

Do we gravitate toward things we have a natural affinity for, or can we develop a natural affinity as we go?

We are talking about nature vs nurture here. Countless pages in high-brow anthropological journals debate the same thing, but I like to tangle it up in the fate vs free will conundrum. Are we genetically programmed automatons who have our passions, pursuits, and predelections designed for us according to the prescribed notation in our DNA? Or are we reckless mavericks, picking up (for instance) a hatred of math from some childhood counting exercise gone horribly wrong?

For my part (as it pertains to this discussion), I started beating on things around age 10, when some new friends I made happened to be drummers in the band at school. It was cool to bang on desks because that's what they did. Years later, I came across a drum kit and taught myself to play to songs on the radio. Now, some 26 years after my indoctrination, I still enjoy sitting behind the kit and learning new things. Question is, would I have picked up the drumming bug sometime anyway (fate) or would I have gotten into something else, say, investment banking (free will)?

Interesting thread, I must say.

[Cavemeister]

The people I'm referring to are experienced studio drummers, who, by choice, decide to stay out of view.

[RudimentalDrummer]

Everyone of us does have different level of potential in our drumming, no matter how much effort is being put into it at the end of the day - meaning there comes a time - that's the furthest we can go.. Some people are just better in drumming compared to many others, and I think it's not just about passion & hardwork the drummer puts in here because - Passion & Hardwork is a pre-requisite to good drumming and a must to have.

It goes to say, some people are very fast learners, very creative drummers, very musically talented, goes into details & perfection (like Buddy Rich)...but I do believed....if there is such a person here, the age that he starts drumming does have a little bearing (though not all) on how good he is going to become in the future too.

Practicing correctly everyday makes us all a good drummer (for sure) as years pass and it's good - at least there's a hope, there's an objective where we are heading in drumming, but to be at a level where those GREATS really are takes much more than practice, practice, practice & hardwork.....It's really a gift from God I believed..

Yes my signature says "Drummers are Made, in a way not born" ..... but I just didn't want to put up a signature that says " The Greatest Drummers are Born & Not Made"....cause how many of us here can be like them.....We all need lots of motivation & inspiration here...I do !

[MSUMetal]

I vote myself as one of the people who can never learn to play drums....But I sure as hell do enjoy listening to them and learning little things about them here and there, hence my whole being on this forum.

Now I've never taken a lesson or anything, but I have a hard time clapping in beat, or understanding this 4/4 and 5/8 rhythm and what not. Im just trying to pick it up.

The reason I havent tried out getting a drum teacher is a few reasons though, so I cant honestly say that noone could ever try.

1.) Im in college now, and cant afford anything close to a drumset or lessons
2.) I've just recently gotten into music in a bigger way, so I'm still just watching to see what I really like
3.) I lack confidence in my ability to make it worth while (I would get too frustrated, or just lose my patience).

[NUTHA JASON]

the tone of the debate here is excellent (oh that all threads were this respectful and deep)

i think it is important to keep the original question in mind...to sum it...can anyone be dave-weckl-like with sufficient practice? i, and many others, have said no. while the majority of people possess the mental, physical and motivational raw material which, when applied with years of quality practice, can lead to wecklhood, there is a decent slice of the population missing one or more of these raw attributes that will prevent them becoming super drummers.

some folk here have deviated from the debate and answered the question: can anyone be a (just a) drummer. and even that term needs further expansion. a drummer as in a lit drummer playing drums in a band? i believe the answer is still no tho less stringent and for the same reasons as in the previous paragraph. if however we are referring to a drummer in terms of a person hitting a pair of bongos along to music or shaking a tambourine at sunday service or maracas at a carnival etc etc...then in all but the most severe cases i would say yes.

j

[bromasi]

Originally Posted by deltadrummer1

Hmm...thanks for the responses guys. I was confused first about some things and for some reason that silly question popped into my mind.. "are people limited?" and "is everyone capable"

Very interesting responses though..

no such thing as a silly question, one of the hardest thing to do sometimes is just be yourself.

[Jay.B.]

Originally Posted by NUTHA JASON

the tone of the debate here is excellent (oh that all threads were this respectful and deep)

i think it is important to keep the original question in mind...to sum it...can anyone be dave-weckl-like with sufficient practice? i, and many others, have said no. while the majority of people possess the mental, physical and motivational raw material which, when applied with years of quality practice, can lead to wecklhood, there is a decent slice of the population missing one or more of these raw attributes that will prevent them becoming super drummers.

some folk here have deviated from the debate and answered the question: can anyone be a (just a) drummer. and even that term needs further expansion. a drummer as in a lit drummer playing drums in a band? i believe the answer is still no tho less stringent and for the same reasons as in the previous paragraph. if however we are referring to a drummer in terms of a person hitting a pair of bongos along to music or shaking a tambourine at sunday service or maracas at a carnival etc etc...then in all but the most severe cases i would say yes.

j

it could be put in terms of F1 racing drivers, anybody could learn the skills of race driving, but very few people have the mindset of schumacher, which is what made him world champion for years, it wasn't just skill alone. I'll leave it at that as I already had my main input a few posts ago.

[RudimentalDrummer]

Originally Posted by Jay.B.

it could be put in terms of F1 racing drivers, anybody could learn the skills of race driving, but very few people have the mindset of schumacher, which is what made him world champion for years, it wasn't just skill alone. I'll leave it at that as I already had my main input a few posts ago.

Hm.mmm what's that?...Definetely you're right...it wasn't skill alone (though skill of a driver is the utmost factors in winning in any Car-Race) , was it stamina, endurance, money?

So what's that my bro ? - or was it "Taking/Testing the Car Beyond It's Limit" at his highest risk?.....but it cannot be a Passion To Win, cause everyone wants to win in a race...tell me...tell me...I would like to know.

[jamsjr44]

Originally Posted by Stormi

There are a lot of people who THINK they can't do things, when in fact they are too scared of failure to try, or because they THINK they can't do something, they don't even bother. When I started playing drums, some family were over and I was showing them just the basic rock beat (which was all I could play at the time), and my sister in law said "Oh, I couldn't do that". She'd never sat down at a drum kit in her life, but she somehow knew, or thought she knew, that she couldn't do it. I said to her "I bet you could if you tried".

I was the same with reading music - when I started the drums, I had no idea about reading music - I didn't know what a bar was, or a stave etc, and I was freaking out because it just looked so complicated and I THOUGHT "There's no way I'll ever understand that". But I've perservered, and now I can read music. I'm not great at it, and can only read music that is at the same level as my drumming, but I CAN do it - and it's because I've practiced lots of reading, I sight read pretty much everything I play, even if I know it off by heart, I still read as I play.

I don't know if I have natural talent, but my drum teacher seems to think so. I've wanted to play drums for 20 years, but in that time never took up any other instrument and never really paid attention in music classes at school. So here I was, starting drums at 34 with no real musical background at all, wondering if I would be capable of having the coordination to play, or the ability to learn to read music. 4 months down the track my teacher tells me I am playing things that most people can't after 4 months (I've only had about 8 lessons, I think, as I only go once a fortnight for half an hour). I don't get to practice nearly as much as I would like as I have 3 small children to care for. BUT, I believe I am doing so well because I have the utmost determination to be as good as I can be.

So I think if you have the determination to play well, you will. A lot of people probably have the ability to do well at drums, or sport, or whatever it may be, but give up too easily when it gets hard. I admit to being like that, with things like sport etc, I think "this is too hard' and give up, but only because it's not something I'm overly interested in, so I don't have the same drive and determination for that as I do with playing the drums. If I can't get something with the drums, I keep at it until I can do it.

Well you have kind of agreed with me in a sense, by saying how much determination you have and how you used it to become a drummer. You have to have determination to do anything in life and we all have stronger determination in other areas of life. Some people were determined to become pro athletes, some politicians etc... I think for the drummers on this forum well had the determination to play drums at some level without it, then we would not have picked up a pair of sticks.

There is no wrong or right answer to this question, I guess the best way I can answer it is, overall yes anyone is capable of drumming IF they are determined enough. But how good will you become at it is a totally different topic, which I know has been covered before somewhere in this forum.

Cavemeister "The people I'm referring to are experienced studio drummers, who, by choice, decide to stay out of view."

To the people who have Dave Weckl like ability and are studio musicians, I would love to ask why be so secretive about your skill? Sometimes it's not their choice maybe they aren't as good as they think? Musical ability is something that should be shared in my opinion. Again I'm not saying there aren't drummers out there who aren't as skilled as Weckl, but I just find it hard to believe that that many of them exsist and are unknowns. You make it sound like anyone can be as good as Weckl and I will say that is a definite NO! Yes some drummers can get there but the majority of us cannot, he has god-given abilities. I mean the proof is actually right in front of your eyes just on this website. There are over 8000 members on this site but only about 100 to 300 drummers are listed with their own page and are what I call true Professional Drummers. Some of us have played longer than some of them and just as long and most of us do not possess their skills. I believe you can get there with alot of practice but you also have to other abilities not easily learned or taught. Just like in sports I can run a 4.3 40 yard dash and have never trained to get that fast, and I don't care how much you train and exercise most people will never be able to run that fast. Drums are no different there are just somethings you will never be able to do on a drum set that others can. It comes back to being an originator not a duplicator. Weckls drumming opened up alot of things people didn't think was possible, that is what sets great drummers apart from the average. Like Steve Gadds 50 ways chop, it's not that hard to play once you understand it, but who else would have thought to play it that way? Sorry to stray off topic....

[Jay.B.]

Originally Posted by RudimentalDrummer

Hm.mmm what's that?...Definetely you're right...it wasn't skill alone (though skill of a driver is the utmost factors in winning in any Car-Race) , was it stamina, endurance, money?

So what's that my bro ? - or was it "Taking/Testing the Car Beyond It's Limit" at his highest risk?.....but it cannot be a Passion To Win, cause everyone wants to win in a race...tell me...tell me...I would like to know.

natural ability/talent whatever you want to call it, and that special frame of mind that lets you just lock in and nail it. The passion to do/be the best does play a huge part in it aswell, but if he wasn't born with that natural ability then we wouldn't even know who the hell he is.
He was also one of the lucky ones who discovered what their natural talent is, we all have one, some are more pronounced than others.

I have a natural talent, but it sure as hell aint drumming LOL I don't know what it is. I have a good ear for ryhthm and groove but that's as far as it goes with me, I have to work like a bugger to try to acheive the simplest of techniques. I simply just won't get some of them no matter how hard I try or work at them, I haven't got that special thing that makes these amazing people tick.

did that make sense LOL I hope so, that's something else I'm crap at... explaining myself haha

[geek_boy_in]

Hey Guys !!
this is my second reply .... But you know what ...... the mere reason that am still at my end twenties pursuing DRUMs as a hobby ( inspite of all obstacles from parents in childhood, studies, work etc etc) ...... and not some other easily rewarding instrument like a 6 string acoustic ....... shows that I/we have the natural inclination towards rhythm :) ....

now only if I could channelise my natural talent and practice hard ........

..... there goes your nature v/s nurture arguments .....


*** i called acoustic guiter easily rewarding cause even after 6 months of practice you can play atleast something with any 3 bar chords to please your friends, family and aquantance ........ but try that with drums even after 1 year of practicing ..... hehehehe ..... even your girlfriend will tell you to stfu .....

[photon]

Hey JB...

We don't all have a natural talent...some people are just born to be mediocre at everything they do.

Life is not always fair...there are the have's and the have nots.

[Jay.B.]

and I, my friend, just happen to fall in to the "have not" category :-)

[DillingerEscp]

Originally Posted by deltadrummer1

Ok this will come across as being silly. But... suppose someone just decided that they wanted to learn to play the drums...and wanted to learn to be a pro....say..like the ace drummer, Dave Weckl !! If that person practiced enough all of the time, could they reach this goal? Obviously, some people are more musically inclined than other people..but do you think it's possible for the 'non-musical' folks to match the skill of a really talented, famous drummer? Maybe it depends if the person wants it bad enough? It's hard for me to believe that anyone...just anyone can learn to play like Weckl or Bobby Jarzombek...or anyone of that calibur...

This is sorta ridiculous...but i was just thinking....

Im sure if someone practiced an absurd amount, they could probably be as good... But I mean.... practice A LOT. Nothing else.

[Auger]

man, -so many great posts in this thread!


Anyway, I think Stormi had an excellent point with people convincing themselves they can't and making that into a self-fufilling prophecy.

Farunda, I guess I'm not denying there is a talent factor, but I do think it's small and overcome-able by most: I think desire trumps talent in most cases. I think the person who truly can not achieve tecnical facility no matter how hard they try is as rare an occurance as the true savant who attains it with no effort at all. ...but your point was well made. Dissagreement is what makes it fun here!

The other reason I say this is this: let's not diminish all work someone like weckl put into his technique. I'd go so far as to say this: I think the only reason that I don't have technique at the same level as dave weckl is because he earned it and I didn't.

As an example, my teacher is the only person I've ever met in 'real life' who I'd say has technique on par with a weckl or one of those guys. I'd say he's probably 'gifted' and, while he very rarely shows-off, I've had to pick my jaw off the floor at some stuff he's done in lessons. However, gifted as he may be, he's put in a looooot of work developing his skill.

One of the books we're working through is wilcoxon's 150 rudimental solos -I'm sure many of you know it. When he was developing his technique, my teacher used to get up every day, eat breakfast, and then play that book cover to cover, all 150 solos ...as his warmup. He used to practice for 8 hours a day.

Ahtough I realize this isn't quite exactly what's been said, I think we're coming close to implying someone like weckl got his tecnique as a gift -which minimizes it a little bit.

...but, as I hinted at in the beginning of my last post, when it comes to being a "great" drummer, tecnique is only a part of the picture, in my opinion. (as for the time my teacher spent on technique he says that, based on his personal experience, he doesn't reccomend it)

I think that, if I practiced my technique and get it to the level of, say, a shelly manne or elvin jones, which I do believe I could do, I wouldn't consider myself nearly as great a drummer as those guys. In my opinion, that's where 'gifted' comes into play. I don't think it's elvin's technique that made him great -I think there are probably many drummers who have more finely tuned technique than he did, but, as drummers, or as musicians, aren't even in the same ballpark. ...but that's a whole 'nother can of worms and a whole other very long post, so I'll just leave it at that for now.

Ironically, this becomes clearer to me the more technique I develop. Not that I'm a technique-monster by any stretch, but I know my way around a drumset. ...it's almost like I had to put in the effort of learning technique not to learn the technique itself, but to learn about the art of drumming and learn the roll that technique actually plays within it, if that makes any sense.


...well back to work. (sigh...)

[deltadrummer1]

Originally Posted by NUTHA JASON

the tone of the debate here is excellent (oh that all threads were this respectful and deep)

i think it is important to keep the original question in mind...to sum it...can anyone be dave-weckl-like with sufficient practice? i, and many others, have said no. while the majority of people possess the mental, physical and motivational raw material which, when applied with years of quality practice, can lead to wecklhood, there is a decent slice of the population missing one or more of these raw attributes that will prevent them becoming super drummers.

some folk here have deviated from the debate and answered the question: can anyone be a (just a) drummer. and even that term needs further expansion. a drummer as in a lit drummer playing drums in a band? i believe the answer is still no tho less stringent and for the same reasons as in the previous paragraph. if however we are referring to a drummer in terms of a person hitting a pair of bongos along to music or shaking a tambourine at sunday service or maracas at a carnival etc etc...then in all but the most severe cases i would say yes.

j

I agree Nutha...this debate here has invoked some very interesting responses. I've actually taken the time to read all of them and consider everyone's opinion to answer the thread question. Many thanks guys!!

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

I remember when I had been taking lessons from Dom for about 6 months and seen dramatic improvement in my hands. He was complimenting me on my progress and I felt all proud. then, later, talking about the techniques, he said " yes, and it has NOTHING to do with talent! Isn't it amazing?" He has been helping students improve 400% no matter what their starting point. After I got rid of my hurt ego, I started to marvel at how truly amazing it is: musicality is one thing, and one may say it can't be learned, but then, how much do you need to be having a good time behind a kit? I say get off it: anyone can have beautiful hands and express themselves. All the rest is negative energy, and you don't need that. No, I am not high....DPS