DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > General Discussion

General Discussion General discussion forum for all drum related topics. Use this forum to exchange ideas and information with your fellow drummers.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #41  
Old 02-24-2018, 01:07 PM
Witterings Witterings is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 634
Default Re: Improvising fills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
Nonsense. Might not be something you're good at, but it's very realistic. Not once in my entire life have I sat around for hours practicing pre-thought out fills.
I'm sorry but everything you play is something you've learnt in one way or another, what your saying is akin to you NEVER play the same thing twice which I'm sorry I really don't believe and you'd quickly run out of different things to play.
__________________
My Band

Last edited by Witterings; 02-24-2018 at 05:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 02-24-2018, 01:17 PM
Witterings Witterings is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 634
Default Re: Improvising fills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood Jim View Post
Improvising fills is not something that you can quickly develop. But here is what worked for me. I practiced the original thirteen essential rudiments. Listed here:

1. The Double Stroke Open Roll
2. The Five Stroke Roll
3. The Seven Stroke Roll
4. The Flam
5. The Flam Accent
6. The Flam Paradiddle
7. The Flamacue
8. The Drag (Half Drag or Ruff)
9. The Single Drag Tap
10. The Double Drag Tap
11. The Double Paradiddle
12. The Single Ratamacue
13. The Triple Ratamacue

But I did it in a unique way. I put on my favorite music. And sitting at the full drum set I played the first rudiment all the way through the first song. In time with the song. Could have been fast or slow, it does not matter. And as I played the rudiment I moved around the kit. Snare to toms even cymbals, all around the kit. Then when the next song came on, no matter what it was, I played the second rudiment along with that song, all the way through the song. It can get kind of interesting trying to play some of the rudiments to the tempo of various songs. (Once in a while a rudiment just won't work with a particular song.) But that was one of the goals of the practice session. to try and figure out how to play the rudiments to music. And learning how to play rudiments around the drum kit.

And then eventually, almost like magic, when you are playing a song and you need to add a fill, the rudiments become part of your playing and part of your fills. The rudiments become improvised fills and just flow out of your head and into your hands.


.

This is brilliant, I did this for 1 1/2 hrs last night, it's a great way to practice rudiments and actually apply them to the kit and a lot more interesting than just playing them on their own on a snare / practice pad.
__________________
My Band
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 02-24-2018, 02:47 PM
GetAgrippa's Avatar
GetAgrippa GetAgrippa is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: U.S.
Posts: 2,908
Default Re: Improvising fills

"I'm sorry if you don't the basic intelligence to work out what I'm actually saying as everything you play is something you've learnt in one way or another but there you go and there's no point in trying to argue with a fool so I'll just leave it there." I'm sure Gruntersdad or another administrator will address this but I"ll go ahead and give you a heads up. Have you read the forum rules-you aren't suppose to insult fellow posters? It's fine to disagree but keep it civil-no need to question an intellect or call someone a fool. You can be banned.
__________________
"I roll to the tune of a different drummer ;) "
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 02-24-2018, 03:46 PM
Gottliver Gottliver is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 158
Default Re: Improvising fills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witterings View Post
I'm sorry if you don't the basic intelligence to work out what I'm actually saying as everything you play is something you've learnt in one way or another but there you go and there's no point in trying to argue with a fool so I'll just leave it there.
Wow. Just wow. What a terrible post. You were both making very good points and almost agreeing with each other at a basic level. But then you blew it with this post.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 02-24-2018, 05:49 PM
Witterings Witterings is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 634
Default Re: Improvising fills

Quote:
Originally Posted by GetAgrippa View Post
"I'm sorry if you don't the basic intelligence to work out what I'm actually saying as everything you play is something you've learnt in one way or another but there you go and there's no point in trying to argue with a fool so I'll just leave it there." I'm sure Gruntersdad or another administrator will address this but I"ll go ahead and give you a heads up. Have you read the forum rules-you aren't suppose to insult fellow posters? It's fine to disagree but keep it civil-no need to question an intellect or call someone a fool. You can be banned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gottliver View Post
Wow. Just wow. What a terrible post. You were both making very good points and almost agreeing with each other at a basic level. But then you blew it with this post.
You're both probably right so I do apologise and have edited my post however what he was suggesting I still think comes from the land of make believe.
__________________
My Band
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 02-24-2018, 05:55 PM
Dr_Watso's Avatar
Dr_Watso Dr_Watso is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,508
Default Re: Improvising fills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witterings View Post
I'm sorry if you don't the basic intelligence to work out what I'm actually saying as everything you play is something you've learnt in one way or another but there you go and there's no point in trying to argue with a fool so I'll just leave it there.
Yea, I'm sorry I don't the basic intelligence too.

True improvising is a skill. The skill revolves around the ability to use situational input and creativity to come up with performance on the fly that you've personally not created or practiced before.

Another good example for you is rappers who build up the skill to "flow". It's quite amazing when you run into someone who can do it really well. They can on the spot take any subject or even in response to a running dialog; they turn it into a cool lyrical story made up of rhymes and rhythms.

There's another class of "flow" guys, too. They sit in their bedrooms trying to pre-plan rhymes which they hope they can bust out if the situation is right. This is usually less than amazing to witness. You hear little scrap phrases get re-used over time and subjects get forced out of nowhere as opposed to coming organically.

One of those is improvising, the other is less so.
__________________
"I always wanted to be remembered for; being honest. Nothing else is worth a damn." - Lemmy

Last edited by Dr_Watso; 02-24-2018 at 06:05 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 02-24-2018, 06:04 PM
Dr_Watso's Avatar
Dr_Watso Dr_Watso is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,508
Default Re: Improvising fills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witterings View Post
You're both probably right so I do apologise and have edited my post however what he was suggesting I still think comes from the land of make believe.
Thanks for the apology as I was responding there. No worries at all.

Work on your drumming from a standpoint of time and rhythm as it relates to subdivision rather than thinking in terms of phrasing so much if you want to develop your ability to improvise more freely. Drumming is a lot more than just beats and fills if you open your mind to the idea.

One of my musician friends has a little sheet taped to the wall in his music room that lists out permutations of different rhythms in sequence. At the bottom in quotes it says "Rhythm is free". I dig that quote.
__________________
"I always wanted to be remembered for; being honest. Nothing else is worth a damn." - Lemmy
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 02-24-2018, 06:31 PM
Midnite Zephyr's Avatar
Midnite Zephyr Midnite Zephyr is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Surf City, USA
Posts: 6,155
Default Re: Improvising fills

I remember a couple years ago when I was in two bands. One band was a classic rock cover band, which Im still in, and everything was practiced and I knew exactly what I was going to play. The other band was a jam band and I had no idea what I was going to play on any given night. A lot of it was two or three chords that went on endlessly, but I had nothing to go by to drive the songs other than my own improvisation and creativity. A bag of tricks will only get a person so far, you eventuality have to teach yourself how to reach within and find a zone where the music will guide you and you can improvise your fills without much intentional effort.
__________________
Drumming for fun.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 02-24-2018, 07:09 PM
Mongrel's Avatar
Mongrel Mongrel is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: South Jersey, USA
Posts: 789
Default Re: Improvising fills

Enough advice here to keep any drummer busy for years. Appreciated to those of us "watching from the wings".

All I can think of to add is this-

Don't forget that SPACE can be a "fill"...

No need to fill the fill with notes...a well timed rest can as effective as a well timed hit or para-diddle...

Lastly...remember to breathe! lol

Nothing worse than filling your fills with tension and stress. Better simple, controlled and relaxed, than intricate, busy, and "nervous" feeling!

Congrats on the getting the gig.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 02-24-2018, 07:11 PM
drumming sort of person's Avatar
drumming sort of person drumming sort of person is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 2,384
Default Re: Improvising fills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post

True improvising is a skill. The skill revolves around the ability to use situational input and creativity to come up with performance on the fly that you've personally not created or practiced before.
That takes zero skill.

What takes skill is improvisation that is musical and that sounds composed, and that others find enjoyable to listen to.

Big difference.

Truly playing something musical that you've never played before is extremely rare, and if you think otherwise you're fooling yourself.
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 02-24-2018, 07:18 PM
Dr_Watso's Avatar
Dr_Watso Dr_Watso is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,508
Default Re: Improvising fills

Quote:
Originally Posted by drumming sort of person View Post
That takes zero skill.

What takes skill is improvisation that is musical and that sounds composed, and that others find enjoyable to listen to.

Big difference.
Well, I was thinking that the "musical, composed and enjoyable" parts were somewhat implied. The better you get at the skill, the higher those watermarks will get. I thought it was obvious.

Quote:
Truly playing something musical that you've never played before is extremely rare, and if you think otherwise you're fooling yourself.
That's a pretty blanket statement that I'm positive does not apply to many, many situations, players and playing styles. For some people it's rare and others it's regular.
__________________
"I always wanted to be remembered for; being honest. Nothing else is worth a damn." - Lemmy
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 02-24-2018, 08:15 PM
drumming sort of person's Avatar
drumming sort of person drumming sort of person is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 2,384
Default Re: Improvising fills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
That's a pretty blanket statement that I'm positive does not apply to many, many situations, players and playing styles. For some people it's rare and others it's regular.
I've heard a lot of music in my life. I can probably count on my ten fingers the times I've heard true improvisation, in the sense that the musician was playing something they had truly never played before. With drummers, it is especially rare. Gary Husband comes to mind. Allan Holdsworth on guitar, definitely. In rock or pop, I can't think of any examples after 1972 or thereabouts.

True musical improvisation is VERY rare, and difficult.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Jarrett
"Beauty is so narrowly defined by most people," he argues. "Take a language and blurt it out to someone who's never heard that language. In the beginning they'll be taken aback and have no idea what you're saying, but if you keep speaking you can, I think, bring them around.

"Almost all sounds can have beauty but it's a case of opening up, clearing the mind to hear that they do," he says. "Too many things happen inorganically when you're improvising because you're thinking too much. You're thinking about what to select and what not to, so I kind of force myself to remember that while I'm playing and one of the ways I do that is by letting my hands do something before my brain can deal with it at all.

"When a motif appears even if it's almost nothing there's a moment when I say to myself, am I going all the way with this? And if so, do I risk being boring or difficult? Or, in the critics' words, I would just be somebody who is self-indulgent."

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-en...n-1828331.html
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 02-24-2018, 08:26 PM
drumming sort of person's Avatar
drumming sort of person drumming sort of person is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 2,384
Default Re: Improvising fills

Quote:
Originally Posted by drummingman View Post

So, what are the exercises that you all use to improve on your improvisational skills when it comes to fills, and even beats for that matter while playing?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEHPGIQwRqE
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 02-24-2018, 08:43 PM
GetAgrippa's Avatar
GetAgrippa GetAgrippa is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: U.S.
Posts: 2,908
Default Re: Improvising fills

See what a great forum-true gentlemen and kudos for civility. I'm a self taught hobbyist and what I note about fills is it's a "when" and "what" issue too-cause not every pause or gap needs a fill and you can go fill crazy too adding them inappropriately-I've done both (yeah yeah I should be drummed out of drumming), then what to fill in the gap (mind the gap) is the other issue. For years I just blustered through adding whatever to fill-but because of DW influence I'm more methodical now emulating known fill patterns, solos, and practicing rudiments (something I did last between ages of 8-14 years of age). Now practicing rudiments has been a great exercise in increasing dexterity and agility-but I don't really plan fills by rudiments (at least cognitively think that way-more trying to play a melody on the kit)- but I discovered most of my fills I had created had rudiments in them-it's almost inevitable it seems. That said I note some drummers seem more rudiment oriented in fills and others not so much-I've often wondered if one has had more band in grade school so practiced more rudiments and more snare work and others have just played the kit??? The old adage there is nothing new under the sun seems applicable-there is a finite number of combinations of hits on drums that is possible I "reckon". I'm trying not to be so drum-centric that I feel compelled to aid crazy crap but seek simpler tastier selections that highlights the music instead of the drums.
__________________
"I roll to the tune of a different drummer ;) "
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 02-24-2018, 08:44 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,068
Default Re: Improvising fills

Quote:
Originally Posted by brentcn View Post
Well, you probably can't, through exercises alone. Certain things you can point to though -- a "call and response", a hemiola, a "fill and catch". But overall, it's too dependent on the music at hand, and the rapport between the musicians. I guess I'm referring to improvising fills on a more basic level -- simply feeling confident about leaving a groove, making up a fill, and getting back on the 1 (or any other beat), without getting lost, speeding up or slowing down. This wouldn't explain when to play a fill, but it would help you to execute cleanly if the opportunity arises.
That brings us back to my usual way of teaching it-- by working on general stuff. The closest I've been able to get to a real music dynamic in the practice room has actually been through using sampled practice loops. They at least provides a context where normal simple fills can sound good. The commercial playalong things like Groove Essentials don't make it for me for that purpose.

Quote:
The Hougton stuff I like for the idea that the right hand play the "melody" of the rhythm, and the left hand tends to fill in the remaining subdivisions. It's a good way to get beyond playing single strokes, without diving immediately into a rudimental approach.
That's actually a thing from Syncopation-- I do it all the time, and about a hundred other things based on the same concept of interpreting a melody part. My entire thing is centered around that-- it's the best way in existence for learning to improvise and play musically.
__________________
Visit Cruise Ship Drummer! - a drumming blog | 2017 CSD! Book of the Blog now available
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 02-24-2018, 09:40 PM
Hollywood Jim's Avatar
Hollywood Jim Hollywood Jim is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 3,735
Default Re: Improvising fills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongrel View Post
Enough advice here to keep any drummer busy for years. Appreciated to those of us "watching from the wings".

All I can think of to add is this-

Don't forget that SPACE can be a "fill"...

No need to fill the fill with notes...a well timed rest can as effective as a well timed hit or para-diddle...

Lastly...remember to breathe! lol

Nothing worse than filling your fills with tension and stress. Better simple, controlled and relaxed, than intricate, busy, and "nervous" feeling!

Congrats on the getting the gig.
Very good advice!
Your breathe comment reminds me of advice from Benny Greb. You have to be careful and not hold your breath when you play a fill. It can cause you to rush the fill. I wish I could find the video where he talks about it. I love listening to Benny Greb talk about playing drums.


.
__________________
"To play a wrong note is insignificant. To play without passion is inexcusable." - Beethoven
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 02-26-2018, 06:30 PM
Dr_Watso's Avatar
Dr_Watso Dr_Watso is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,508
Default Re: Improvising fills

Quote:
Originally Posted by drumming sort of person View Post
I've heard a lot of music in my life. I can probably count on my ten fingers the times I've heard true improvisation, in the sense that the musician was playing something they had truly never played before. With drummers, it is especially rare. Gary Husband comes to mind. Allan Holdsworth on guitar, definitely. In rock or pop, I can't think of any examples after 1972 or thereabouts.

True musical improvisation is VERY rare, and difficult.
I think there's maybe a disagreement about the term "improvising". It doesn't usually require that it's not something you've ever played before, it's simply performing something that was unplanned and unprepared.

I'm challenged by your question mostly because I don't know how we as outside listeners to something could ever know if what happened on that recording was planned, or off the cuff.

What I do know for sure though, is that improvising as I know the term to be defined is nowhere near impossible on the difficulty scale. I help run an open mic unplanned jam night each week and see the full gamut of players, some who can improv well, and others who don't do so well, or have a hard time with it. I can say for sure that everything happening on stage was improvisational, since we started from a groove none of us had heard, and built from it in most cases.
__________________
"I always wanted to be remembered for; being honest. Nothing else is worth a damn." - Lemmy
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com