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  #1  
Old 01-28-2018, 08:45 AM
junior-drummer junior-drummer is offline
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Default Question for buzz roll masters

I guess in other to standout "musically" a zzzzzzzzzzzzz buzz roll needs a pulse on 2&4 or 1&3 sometimes it might be on the upbeats ?

...Not talking about hand technique here

Do you guys have any advice and suggest some recordings or music videos where i can dig it?

Back in the days i saw this kick ass blues drummer (with Cool Papa Saddler) in a smokey bar who was playing very long crescendo buzz rolls mostly on the last 4 bars, with a very heavy crash resolution.
That's the only fill he did ...all night long !

Never boring as he did it so well to make it HYPNOTIC.

I was an absolute beginner that time but this motherfucka still sits in the back of my head.



...I guess the title of this post should be: how to get a buzz roll to sound hypnotic :-)

Last edited by junior-drummer; 01-28-2018 at 09:08 AM.
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Old 01-28-2018, 09:27 AM
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Default Re: Question for buzz roll masters

Watch Ed Shaugnessy talk about the Buddy Rich "whipped cream" buzz roll. Emulate for a few decades.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBgTkHVe8YM
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Old 01-28-2018, 11:03 AM
junior-drummer junior-drummer is offline
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Default Re: Question for buzz roll masters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
Watch Ed Shaugnessy talk about the Buddy Rich "whipped cream" buzz roll. Emulate for a few decades.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBgTkHVe8YM
Wow thanks BO !

YES ! technically is exactly the way i do it.. that rounded motion with the fore arms.

While musically: the second part (1:30) confirms what i was thinking. You got to give a pulse to that zzzzz which
could be quarter notes or better... a melodic phrase borrowed from IE the song.

Lets wait for other buzz roll freaks to share their insights :-)

Thanks



.
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Old 01-28-2018, 11:57 AM
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Default Re: Question for buzz roll masters

Practice your triple strokes on low-rebound surfaces like a floor tom or moongel pad. Take the roll all around the kit, roll on every surface for a couple seconds each, just keep moving it around. Start very slow with the triples, get them clean.

Eventually you will start turning the roll into quads instead of triples. Take the same approach with quads.

It also helps to have a really good double-stroke roll too, the best exercise for that is Irish Spring on a pillow or other soft surfaces. Take it all around the kit, too.
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Old 01-28-2018, 03:00 PM
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Default Re: Question for buzz roll masters

I love buzz rolls (probably too much) especially getting it roaring with my left hand (my cheat for a one handed roll lol)and moving my right around kit. I like to play contiguous singles, doubles, and triplets at various tempos. As you speed up your doubles they will eventually turn into a buzz roll.
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Old 01-28-2018, 03:13 PM
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Default Re: Question for buzz roll masters

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Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
Watch Ed Shaugnessy talk about the Buddy Rich "whipped cream" buzz roll. Emulate for a few decades.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBgTkHVe8YM
I never saw that before. Thank you. I'm going to work on that.
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Old 01-28-2018, 04:08 PM
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Default Re: Question for buzz roll masters

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Originally Posted by GetAgrippa View Post
I love buzz rolls (probably too much) especially getting it roaring with my left hand (my cheat for a one handed roll lol)and moving my right around kit. I like to play contiguous singles, doubles, and triplets at various tempos. As you speed up your doubles they will eventually turn into a buzz roll.
Disagree. Buzz and double stroke rolls are distinct. A conscious effort in changing technique is required to switch between the two, not speed.
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Old 01-28-2018, 05:01 PM
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Default Re: Question for buzz roll masters

I agree they are different rudiments, but you can only play an open roll and hear each distinctive note to a certain speed then you press on and lose the rudiment as it blurs into a buzz? That doesn’t mean you can’t play each rudiment at slower tempos just you will naturally reach a limit for the double stroke so you blur into a fast buzz roll, but I see your point because the transition is because a shift (or breakdown) in technique too. So I stand corrected and agree.
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Old 01-28-2018, 05:52 PM
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Default Re: Question for buzz roll masters

Aside from lots and lots of experience,the one piece of advice I got was from Jack van Geem from the San Francisco Symphony.

It was the dovetailing of your roll from one hand to the next.

Orchestral rolls are about achieving a sound texture ,it's not a precise rudimental technique.

My videos of buzz rolls:

https://youtu.be/STf1Z8mDKaI

https://youtu.be/735WzVl-xjM
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Old 01-28-2018, 10:15 PM
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Default Re: Question for buzz roll masters

Here's a Highland approach to it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLqVSEPAZJ4
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  #11  
Old 02-01-2018, 02:34 PM
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Default Re: Question for buzz roll masters

Buzz and double strokes are completely different things.

Working on your doubles will help your buzz though as well as triple strokes and finger control.

Buzz is for low volume on the edge, higher volume requires doubles. Loud even doubles are quite a challenge in themselves.


In regards to tempo it really depends. I'll generally go with the other subdivisions in the piece, but if that can't provide an even sound you'll have to go faster. Relaxed quality strokes is the key though, not the tempo. The tendency is to get stressed and press too hard. Avoid accenting and push to make it as long and even as possible. Work on it really slow to get the sound you want out of each indvidual hand.

The 2nd line stuff I might approach a bit differently. If it's just one beat long I sometimes buzz both hands at the same time. Just let them fall over the strainer/butt plate area.
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Old 02-01-2018, 03:46 PM
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Default Re: Question for buzz roll masters

I would try to avoid adding a definate pulse to your buzz rolls. From an orchestral perspective a buzz roll is supposed to sound like one seamless burst of white noise. Obviously you can pulse them for drum set applications but in an orchestral setting they are strictly not pulsed. I highly recommend the method that someone earlier in the thread mentioned called "dove tailing" This happens when you allow one stick to produce the absolute most number of bounces it can achieve then doing the same with the other stick before the first has completely finished bouncing. Therefore creating a dove tailing effect. Once you are comfortable with this, you begin to smooth out the strokes so the initial impact of the stroke doesn't sound like an actual pulse or accent.

Buzz rolls are one of the simplest, yet most difficult to master rudiments in the percussionists arsenal. The quest for perfection is endless!!
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Old 02-01-2018, 04:48 PM
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Default Re: Question for buzz roll masters

Do you like B-dubs?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioqvI-D5bBQ
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Old 02-01-2018, 07:27 PM
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Default Re: Question for buzz roll masters

Quote:
Originally Posted by vindrums View Post
I would try to avoid adding a definate pulse to your buzz rolls. From an orchestral perspective a buzz roll is supposed to sound like one seamless burst of white noise. Obviously you can pulse them for drum set applications but in an orchestral setting they are strictly not pulsed. I highly recommend the method that someone earlier in the thread mentioned called "dove tailing" This happens when you allow one stick to produce the absolute most number of bounces it can achieve then doing the same with the other stick before the first has completely finished bouncing. Therefore creating a dove tailing effect. Once you are comfortable with this, you begin to smooth out the strokes so the initial impact of the stroke doesn't sound like an actual pulse or accent.

Buzz rolls are one of the simplest, yet most difficult to master rudiments in the percussionists arsenal. The quest for perfection is endless!!
This would be my take as well... Then, once you can do the roll without a "stated pulse". Begin to branch out.

Disclaimer... I spent years studying orchestral snare drum which made significant contributions to my drumset playing.
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Old 02-04-2018, 06:47 AM
junior-drummer junior-drummer is offline
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Default Re: Question for buzz roll masters

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Originally Posted by vindrums View Post
... you begin to smooth out the strokes so the initial impact of the stroke doesn't sound like an actual pulse or accent.
that's exactly where the rounded motion with arms comes in
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Old 02-05-2018, 03:31 PM
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Default Re: Question for buzz roll masters

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Originally Posted by junior-drummer View Post
that's exactly where the rounded motion with arms comes in
Although I've used this technique and seen it used quite effectively by many fantastic drummers, I would try to smooth out the strokes as much as possible without any extra arm motion.
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Old 02-05-2018, 04:37 PM
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Default Re: Question for buzz roll masters

Great thread here. Our trio wants to start doing more "trading two's" and this is the kinda ideas I can use.
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Old 02-05-2018, 05:03 PM
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Default Re: Question for buzz roll masters

I try to use buzz rolls as much as possible, I guess to pay homage to Buddy Rich, and because they are a great cue to let soloist know their time is up! I use them extensively in solos as well, once again, if it worked for Buddy I try to make it work for me.

I would say my advice is similar to several other replies, and that's WHIP CREAM ROLL!! All day long. I practice mine every day. I do it on the pad and on the set to some New Orleans-ish beats. Watch Ed and Buddy not only to watch their technique, but also to listen to how it is used in a musical context.

I do exclusively play jazz at this point, so I'm not sure how it's applied in other genres. Anyone want to chime in on that?
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Old 02-05-2018, 07:18 PM
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Default Re: Question for buzz roll masters

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I do exclusively play jazz at this point, so I'm not sure how it's applied in other genres. Anyone want to chime in on that?
It's different in Pipe Band. The whip cream roll doesn't sound good on Pipe Band drums, because the top head has a very specific sweet spot to play on. The Kevlar heads we use are ridiculously tight -more than some other genres- since they have to match the pitch of the bagpipes, which seem to go up every year. Plus, there's a strainer lightly pressed against the top head, as well the Mylar head on the bottom. Open rolls sound very staccato on these drums, so in order to get the sustained effect of a roll they have to be buzzed. The sticks are relatively big, light and have a large bead to draw off even more high pitch tone off the top.

All this makes the drum ideally suited for buzz rolls. The way they're used to compliment the bagpipes has led to some highly developed phrases, with a wide range of dynamics, light & shading and expression. But it's a focused sound with little tonal variety.

I posted a video of a World Champion soloist earlier in this thread.
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Old 02-05-2018, 08:12 PM
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Default Re: Question for buzz roll masters

Speaking of bad buzz rolls:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5m6vAUSPhw
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Old 02-05-2018, 09:17 PM
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Default Re: Question for buzz roll masters

I'll add this video on Buzz Rolls to the mix: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA0-lMwhgSI
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Old 02-05-2018, 10:04 PM
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Default Re: Question for buzz roll masters

I didn't hear a buzz roll. Just a dude demonstrating snares for sale. What ya pickin' on him?

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  #23  
Old 02-05-2018, 10:15 PM
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Default Re: Question for buzz roll masters

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Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
It's different in Pipe Band. The whip cream roll doesn't sound good on Pipe Band drums, because the top head has a very specific sweet spot to play on. The Kevlar heads we use are ridiculously tight -more than some other genres- since they have to match the pitch of the bagpipes, which seem to go up every year. Plus, there's a strainer lightly pressed against the top head, as well the Mylar head on the bottom. Open rolls sound very staccato on these drums, so in order to get the sustained effect of a roll they have to be buzzed. The sticks are relatively big, light and have a large bead to draw off even more high pitch tone off the top.

All this makes the drum ideally suited for buzz rolls. The way they're used to compliment the bagpipes has led to some highly developed phrases, with a wide range of dynamics, light & shading and expression. But it's a focused sound with little tonal variety.

I posted a video of a World Champion soloist earlier in this thread.
I’m still curious to see video from the calf head days of pipe band drumming
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Old 02-06-2018, 12:24 AM
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Default Re: Question for buzz roll masters

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Originally Posted by Push pull stroke View Post
I’m still curious to see video from the calf head days of pipe band drumming
You get a closeup here of a snare playing (and tenor flourishing) around 2:00 from this 1948 film. Around 1:10 there's a closeup of the bass drums. I knew someone who played during the calfskin days and he told me they rubbed Vaseline on the heads to protect them from the rain. The drums and playing have changed quite a bit since then!:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nINX4sUtgc

This clip from 1963 doesn't show any closeups, but you get to hear a stylistic change and something closer to modern competitive Pipe Band drumming from around 2:27. Still calfskin. From 3:30 to 3:35 you can see legendary player Alex Duthart at the top of the screen. He revolutionized the playing style and his drum scores are still used in competition today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgyXWu2f7pc
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Last edited by JohnW; 02-06-2018 at 12:39 AM. Reason: Added another YouTube clip.
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Old 02-06-2018, 01:56 AM
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Default Re: Question for buzz roll masters

Thanks, JohnW, that was nice.

I still have this theory that buzz rolls are much better among Scottish players than anywhere else in Europe. LOL
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Old 02-06-2018, 02:06 AM
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Default Re: Question for buzz roll masters

You're welcome, Push Pull Stroke.

They definitely have the buzz!

Here's something I lifted from a great player named William Glenholmes. He plays it here:

https://www.facebook.com/william.gle...5156298534261/
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Old 02-16-2018, 05:11 PM
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Default Re: Question for buzz roll masters

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
You're welcome, Push Pull Stroke.

They definitely have the buzz!

Here's something I lifted from a great player named William Glenholmes. He plays it here:

https://www.facebook.com/william.gle...5156298534261/

Can you explain the purpose of this exercise? I am confused on how this will help make your buzz rolls cleaner.
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Old 02-18-2018, 01:21 AM
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Can you explain the purpose of this exercise? I am confused on how this will help make your buzz rolls cleaner.
It forces you to put a quiet, accurate buzz between taps. So you're going from a relaxed tap to a moderately to highly pressured buzz and immediately back to a relaxed tap. Basically you're playing alternating doubles as 16th notes, then three on a hand as 16th note triplets, then four on a hand 32nd notes. Only you drop a buzz immediately after the 1st tap. It takes a lot of control, so you need to start it very slowly.

How will it make your buzz rolls cleaner? The way any short roll exercise will make your rolls cleaner; whether they're open or closed.

NOTE: The way it's written is Right Hand: above the line, Left Hand: below the line. The greater than sign accent means a clean strike, not necessarily a loud accent.
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Last edited by JohnW; 02-18-2018 at 01:55 AM. Reason: Clarificationof hand to hand movement
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Old 02-18-2018, 06:49 AM
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Default Re: Question for buzz roll masters

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Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
It forces you to put a quiet, accurate buzz between taps. So you're going from a relaxed tap to a moderately to highly pressured buzz and immediately back to a relaxed tap. Basically you're playing alternating doubles as 16th notes, then three on a hand as 16th note triplets, then four on a hand 32nd notes. Only you drop a buzz immediately after the 1st tap. It takes a lot of control, so you need to start it very slowly.

How will it make your buzz rolls cleaner? The way any short roll exercise will make your rolls cleaner; whether they're open or closed.

NOTE: The way it's written is Right Hand: above the line, Left Hand: below the line. The greater than sign accent means a clean strike, not necessarily a loud accent.
Thank you a lot John, I am going to give this exercise a try.
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Old 02-18-2018, 06:20 PM
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Thank you a lot John, I am going to give this exercise a try.
My pleasure evilash 1996! This is a challenging bit and if you're playing on a drum set snare, there'll be some adjustment. So here's something that might give a better idea of the buzz and taps normally used in Pipe Bands broken down by a top player and judge, Gordon Bell. It's the Massed Bands 4/4 and there are slight variations of this, but it's something that you could jump in and play along with any Highland Games around the World:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5a1cfCbOc0

Like anything else, there's a language it's part of and to isolate a tiny phrase out of context can be misleading.
And here's the written music:

http://euspba.org/wp-content/uploads...rums_24-44.pdf
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Last edited by JohnW; 02-18-2018 at 09:36 PM. Reason: tweaking.
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Old 02-20-2018, 03:34 PM
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Default Re: Question for buzz roll masters

I was going to start a new thread, but might as well ask here. I'm just starting to work on my buzz rolls, but so far it seems like I do best when I get to pick the tempo that makes it sound most even. Most videos I've watched talk about it this way too. My question then, is how do you do a buzz roll when you also need to keep time, like you want to buzz half a measure for example? Do you adapt your buzz to the best subdivision (probably 16ths), or do you go at the tempo you like and keep time by instinct or something?
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Old 02-20-2018, 03:47 PM
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My question then, is how do you do a buzz roll when you also need to keep time, like you want to buzz half a measure for example? Do you adapt your buzz to the best subdivision (probably 16ths), or do you go at the tempo you like and keep time by instinct or something?
Probably most people play the easiest subdivision for the time feel, and the quality of the roll just suffers a little bit-- the speed may not be right for getting the best sounding long tone with the roll, but it usually doesn't matter.

This is what the whole last part of the book Stick Control is for, by the way-- the roll studies with 5s and 7s-- for getting a good quality buzz roll at different tempos.
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Old 02-20-2018, 09:33 PM
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Default Re: Question for buzz roll masters

I am also starting to work on buzz rolls. Mark Wessels has a nice Vic Firth video on how to begin;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfASLVhB8hk

(though, I still can't believe how German his hands are... I need a thumb on top to do buzz')

That Ted Akatz video is awesome. Buzz rolls are clearly an art in themselves.

Steep learning curve here!

For some reason, I tend to play my hand movements in a triplet note rate...
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