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Old 01-10-2018, 06:55 PM
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Default Double stroke dead zone

I've been trying to improve my technique recently. I'd like to be able to do doubles over the range of tempos. I can of course go very slow with deliberate strokes, then at higher tempos I turn them into what I think of as a real double stroke roll using rebound. Slower than 80-85 bpm (in 4/4, the doubles are 32nd notes) my rebound technique breaks down, but it's too fast for me to do deliberate strokes.

Hopefully that makes sense. Any comments/suggestions on how to improve? The transition to reliance on rebound is a challenge in any case, but also not sure if I should work on slowing down the rebound version or speeding up the deliberate strokes. Or maybe the transition becomes natural when the skills are up to snuff.
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Old 01-10-2018, 07:56 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke dead zone

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Originally Posted by Mastiff View Post
I've been trying to improve my technique recently. I'd like to be able to do doubles over the range of tempos. I can of course go very slow with deliberate strokes, then at higher tempos I turn them into what I think of as a real double stroke roll using rebound. Slower than 80-85 bpm (in 4/4, the doubles are 32nd notes) my rebound technique breaks down, but it's too fast for me to do deliberate strokes.

Hopefully that makes sense. Any comments/suggestions on how to improve? The transition to reliance on rebound is a challenge in any case, but also not sure if I should work on slowing down the rebound version or speeding up the deliberate strokes. Or maybe the transition becomes natural when the skills are up to snuff.
I do think the transition becomes natural eventually. I have been playing a long time, and generally have good technique, but I didn't learn it in any deliberate or organized fashion, at least not after the first few years, so I don't always know the way to communicate how to do it.

What I find is that, as you move through the tempo ranges, the technique used will change a bit from the deliberate strokes, which I think of as a hand/wrist technique, to the mid-ranges you're struggling with, which I think involves more fingers, and then on to the fast tempos, which rely more on a good fulcrum for rebound. Enough practice, and you should be able to make those transitions smoothly, I believe.

Perhaps one of the more technique oriented members can help you get from point A to point B, and then to C!
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Old 01-10-2018, 08:02 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke dead zone

There's a point in the tempo range where a double needs to be a combination of both things you're talking about. It's both deliberate, and utilizing bounce. You need to practice letting the stick bounce up, but then completely controlling it by catching the stick and then using actual force to snap it back down with your back fingers.

To be honest, the same basically carries to the second stroke at faster tempos, too. One thing I see people doing wrong with double rolls is that the second note of the double is weaker because the player is relying on rebound and gravity too much rather than controlling the second hit and really snapping it down with the same force the first note went down with. On that same line of thought, lots of people will throw the stick down very hard for the first note because they want to generate lots of bounce to make the second hit happen... This also leads to un-even note double strokes.
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Old 01-10-2018, 08:19 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke dead zone

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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
There's a point in the tempo range where a double needs to be a combination of both things you're talking about. It's both deliberate, and utilizing bounce. You need to practice letting the stick bounce up, but then completely controlling it by catching the stick and then using actual force to snap it back down with your back fingers.

To be honest, the same basically carries to the second stroke at faster tempos, too. One thing I see people doing wrong with double rolls is that the second note of the double is weaker because the player is relying on rebound and gravity too much rather than controlling the second hit and really snapping it down with the same force the first note went down with. On that same line of thought, lots of people will throw the stick down very hard for the first note because they want to generate lots of bounce to make the second hit happen... This also leads to un-even note double strokes.
Very true, and one of the things both my drum kit teacher and my drum corp instructor did was to have me practice accenting the second note to develop that control. I had practically forgotten about that!
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Old 01-10-2018, 09:51 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke dead zone

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Originally Posted by Mastiff View Post
at higher tempos I turn them into what I think of as a real double stroke roll using rebound. Slower than 80-85 bpm (in 4/4, the doubles are 32nd notes) my rebound technique breaks down.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect you might be allowing the sticks just to bounce with no real control of the second stroke and pretty much letting it die on the drum head. If that is the case, it'll never sound very good. Timing of the strokes from hand to hand will sound uneven and there'll be no power to the second stroke.

Moeller technique and push pull technique both helped me a lot with rolls. I throw the stick down, let it bounce and then snap it back into my hand with my fingers for the second stroke. My wrist is pulling back at the same time I snap the stick into my hand allowing the stick to drop onto the snare and create the second stroke. The finger snap plus wrist creates the power for a strong second stroke that will sound pretty much as even as the first stroke. It's effectively bounce, snap, bounce, snap. This becomes a fluid and even sounding motion even at slow tempos.

I would still recommend continuing practising wrist strokes on non bouncy surfaces like pillows to develop strength and stamina.
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Old 01-10-2018, 10:26 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke dead zone

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Originally Posted by Merlin5 View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect you might be allowing the sticks just to bounce with no real control of the second stroke and pretty much letting it die on the drum head. If that is the case, it'll never sound very good. Timing of the strokes from hand to hand will sound uneven and there'll be no power to the second stroke.
It's not as bad as that I don't think. I'm controlling the rebound, keeping the timing even, and certainly not letting it buzz extra times. It's likely my second stroke has less power though, and I'm going to try the exercise of accenting the second hit to see what that exposes.

For purposes of this thread, I'm mostly thinking about the mid tempo. I think IDDrummer nailed it, that it's the finger control zone. I'm making good progress on my singles by concentrating on finger control and I bet that will pay off here too.
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Old 01-10-2018, 10:31 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke dead zone

Joe Morello's Stone Killer #2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tia3nieOu0o#t=16m0s

also experiment with hand technique like push/pull (open/close).
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Old 01-10-2018, 10:38 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke dead zone

Try playing the doubles as triplets along to your metronome, it's always helped me.

RRL LRR LLR RLL or LLR RLL RRL LRR (1 trip let, 2 trip let, etc)

Also you must eventually go slow to fast to slow again while completely relaxed. When you find a "fast" that makes you tight, back off a little then try to go fast again. This takes time but you need to do this to even the transition.
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Old 01-11-2018, 12:12 AM
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Default Re: Double stroke dead zone

This is a difficult thing in this medium.

That accenting the second stroke is also a reminder to give that extra push with the finger at higher speeds or it won't be even.

Everything estra I do these days for technique influence my double. The heavue pad stick are a big part of this, but more than conditioning with heavier weight it's more about being sure the stick does most of the work and then the finger control where there is a bit for resistance work.

At this point there is no middle ground harder tempo for me. Getting slightly more consistent at the height of a crescendo maybe.

Any exercise featuring doubles is good.

Working with just a tad less rebound so you have no choice but to give that second stroke a some extra push also works for me. You can see results in one day maybe just a few hours if you haven't done that before.
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Old 01-11-2018, 12:15 AM
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Default Re: Double stroke dead zone

That's faster than I can do doubles for more than one or two beats and I always use the rebound. Hell, I just think it's fun using the rebound at any speed, even doing 8ths at 60 bpm. Like... just pause my hand at the bottom, let the stick bounce up into my fingers, wait for it... SNAP. It just feels good in the fingers... Same with triples, bounce, let the stick come into the fingers, wait... flick the fingers closed and open, wait... then SNAP again! I'm still working on evening out the triples.
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:13 AM
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Default Re: Double stroke dead zone

Pillow practice really helped me with this.

If you’re trying to be able to wrist the doubles at a faster tempo, think of playing them more lightly. Also move the fulcrum farther forward in the hand.
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:27 AM
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Default Re: Double stroke dead zone

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Originally Posted by Mastiff View Post
I've been trying to improve my technique recently. I'd like to be able to do doubles over the range of tempos. I can of course go very slow with deliberate strokes, then at higher tempos I turn them into what I think of as a real double stroke roll using rebound. Slower than 80-85 bpm (in 4/4, the doubles are 32nd notes) my rebound technique breaks down, but it's too fast for me to do deliberate strokes.
How does your rebound technique work for you when you're playing 1-4" off the drum? At any speed.
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:53 AM
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Default Re: Double stroke dead zone

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Originally Posted by MrPockets View Post
Joe Morello's Stone Killer #2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tia3nieOu0o#t=16m0s

also experiment with hand technique like push/pull (open/close).
I assume everyone here can do doubles at least that well. ;)
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Old 01-11-2018, 11:40 AM
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Default Re: Double stroke dead zone

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I assume everyone here can do doubles at least that well. ;)
Minimum requirement of course, though if I'm honest I have a couple 9 yo students that aren't quite there yet.
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Old 01-12-2018, 05:38 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke dead zone

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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
One thing I see people doing wrong with double rolls is that the second note of the double is weaker because the player is relying on rebound and gravity too much rather than controlling the second hit and really snapping it down with the same force the first note went down with. On that same line of thought, lots of people will throw the stick down very hard for the first note because they want to generate lots of bounce to make the second hit happen... This also leads to un-even note double strokes.
Spot on, brother.
This is the prime reason one should practice on a low-to-no bounce pad (or pillow). With no rebound happening, one is forced to use muscle to get the desired fluidity of sound and tempo.
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Old 01-12-2018, 05:52 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke dead zone

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Originally Posted by CommanderRoss View Post
Spot on, brother.
This is the prime reason one should practice on a low-to-no bounce pad (or pillow). With no rebound happening, one is forced to use muscle to get the desired fluidity of sound and tempo.
Surely you can't do a fast double on a pillow though? I mean, a fast rock song, say 120 bpm, I can do 16th note singles and then pop those into doubles (32nd notes essentially) using rebound, the hand/wrist motion barely changes. Absolutely no hope of doing doubles that fast if I tried to consciously manipulate each individual hit.

I don't mean to argue the basic point of keeping control and trying to keep things even though.
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Old 01-12-2018, 06:20 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke dead zone

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Originally Posted by Mastiff View Post
Surely you can't do a fast double on a pillow though? I mean, a fast rock song, say 120 bpm, I can do 16th note singles and then pop those into doubles (32nd notes essentially) using rebound, the hand/wrist motion barely changes. Absolutely no hope of doing doubles that fast if I tried to consciously manipulate each individual hit.

I don't mean to argue the basic point of keeping control and trying to keep things even though.
The idea of a pillow or Moongel pad is to pluck the sticks off of the surface, not slam them into the fabric. You'll have a different top speed and high end comfort zone speed than you would on a regular pad or drum, so just think of it as a supplement to your practice. It definitely has it's place- within reason.
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Old 01-12-2018, 06:24 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke dead zone

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The idea of a pillow or Moongel pad is to pluck the sticks off of the surface, not slam them into the fabric. You'll have a different top speed and high end comfort zone speed than you would on a regular pad or drum, so just think of it as a supplement to your practice. It definitely has it's place- within reason.
Gotcha. Thanks for the help.
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Old 01-12-2018, 06:27 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke dead zone

You cab play pretty decent doubles on a surface with no rebound, but whatever way you work your fingers to help that second stroke is fine.

It's true that the for or against pillow practice includes a bit of misunderstanding. We're not supposed to pound into and through it with force. It's simply a surface with little rebound. This is part of why I prefer someting like the moongel pad for this as there is a very clear surface with an attack.
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Old 01-12-2018, 06:39 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke dead zone

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It's simply a surface with little rebound. This is part of why I prefer someting like the moongel pad for this as there is a very clear surface with an attack.

Exactly. It's why I was sure to include "Little-to-no rebound" in my original statement.
I can tap out doubles on my leg pretty fast, but using a little stick rebound (like on a pad) makes it that much faster.
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Old 01-12-2018, 07:43 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke dead zone

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Spot on, brother.
This is the prime reason one should practice on a low-to-no bounce pad (or pillow). With no rebound happening, one is forced to use muscle to get the desired fluidity of sound and tempo.
You won't get any disagreement from me! I'm a huge fan of walking around the house (or a venue, don't tell anyone) and playing sticks on any surface I can hit. It's interesting both what stuff sounds like, and what it feels like rebound and control wise.

The end result now is that I can play whatever I want even on the floppiest of dead-head low tuned floor toms.
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Old 01-12-2018, 11:56 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke dead zone

Thomas Lang made a interesting suggestion on one of the lessons he gave on Drumeo. He said that he practices his doubles with an accent on the second hit. He said that once you get it up to speed to makes each hit more even than not. I know it might be a bit backwards learning but that might help
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Old 02-05-2018, 06:10 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke dead zone

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Originally Posted by IDDrummer View Post
Very true, and one of the things both my drum kit teacher and my drum corp instructor did was to have me practice accenting the second note to develop that control. I had practically forgotten about that!
I believe this would be the inverted double stroke. RlLrR..
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Old 02-05-2018, 06:13 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke dead zone

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Originally Posted by Mastiff View Post
I've been trying to improve my technique recently. I'd like to be able to do doubles over the range of tempos. I can of course go very slow with deliberate strokes, then at higher tempos I turn them into what I think of as a real double stroke roll using rebound. Slower than 80-85 bpm (in 4/4, the doubles are 32nd notes) my rebound technique breaks down, but it's too fast for me to do deliberate strokes.

Hopefully that makes sense. Any comments/suggestions on how to improve? The transition to reliance on rebound is a challenge in any case, but also not sure if I should work on slowing down the rebound version or speeding up the deliberate strokes. Or maybe the transition becomes natural when the skills are up to snuff.
If you have $30, join Dave Weckl online school for one month. He breaks all this down for you. Will be the best $$ you will spend. Go to his website and you can view the topics he covers in depth.
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Old 02-05-2018, 07:37 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke dead zone

Bill Bachman does a great job describing the shifts in technique from slow to faster doubles. Watching Tony Williams play endless powerful doubles inspired me to start practicing such. Seems like it is stated he holds the sticks in his palms and plays each note-no rebound. Personally I don't think one size fits all-you can play in your palms, lots of finger, hold the stick for more fulcrum or hold at tip of handle-they all work and feel comfortable for different things. But why not take advantage of the rebound-just give it some finger, whether doubles, triplets, or more) so following strokes are even in strength. I've, historically, never been one to practice rudiments, but I'm really enjoying it now. I was stumbling with the smoothness of transition from a single or double to a triple-but now got them smooth. I practice on my snare so listen to how even they sound-I often note that while they sound even my left hand stick heights aren't always even with right-it's slight but still I can see it. I note when I start whipping my buzz rolls the left is not as wide a whip either. They sound even though-and I can cognitively even them out. I'm adding new rudiments too-so first singles, doubles, triplets, paradiddles, and now 5, 6, 7, 9 stroke rolls. Really seems to be helping my osteoarthritis in my hands-so good therapy.
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Old 02-05-2018, 11:25 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke dead zone

If you are "bouncing" your doing it wrong, no offence...

Practice deliberate strokes. and when you get to your max, practice there day after day and increase the bpm only when you can.. It will eventually have some bounce to it, but it will be controlled. You can always go a bit faster, but i find if you practice at your max with it bouncing your not working on your technique as much.

There is a reason guys use couch cushions, pillows, etc.
I have a prologix blue lightning pad which is awesome because of the minimal rebound. I also practice on a floor tom. Your not going to get the rebound off of that like your snare or an evans realfeel pad.

even at my top I am still controlling every hit. a bit of wrist and some fingers.

Pinkys stay on the sticks too.
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Old 02-05-2018, 11:49 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke dead zone

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I believe this would be the inverted double stroke. RlLrR..
Or just bucks (rRlLrRlL...)
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Old 02-06-2018, 12:15 AM
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Default Re: Double stroke dead zone

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Or just bucks (rRlLrRlL...)
Yes. This is what I was talking about, but those inverted doubles can be useful, too.
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