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  #41  
Old 10-10-2017, 11:59 AM
Woolwich Woolwich is offline
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Default Re: Click track overuse - examples?

What did click tracks originally sound like? They sounded like two drumsticks being clicked together.
How do I start a lot of songs and mark in-song pauses in my bands? By clicking my sticks together to provide a count. That's all a click track is, an extension of the drummer counting in.
Having seen performances of myself on YouTube I realised that songs I though I'd nailed actually had glaring tempo changes. Not the atmospheric push/pull stuff, I mean races to the finish. So I started to use Live BPM on my phone to measure mybtempo and a few glances has allowed me to coach myself into better time keeping. I play without it more than with it now but I still like to check every now and then for my own benefit. If I was gigging and the gig was then forgotten it wouldn't be as big a deal, but with mobile footage being readily uploaded by gig goers there's an extra level of scrutiny to deal with now. If I record in the future I'll use my Live BPM app, if a click is suggested I'll use one.
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  #42  
Old 10-10-2017, 09:27 PM
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philrudd philrudd is offline
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Default Re: Click track overuse - examples?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
But that's a case of the drummer not being able to play with a click/sequence very well, not the fact that a sequence was used. if Keith had been right on it, it would have sounded great!
Ah, OK - now I understand your initial question better. I'm not convinced my ear is fine-tuned enough to honestly make the distinction of whether a tune may have been better served without a click.

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
His time was on par with Bonham's. :O

Bermuda
You really think so? Interesting. Again, I'll have to defer to the more experienced drummer here; to my ear, Moon is sloppier than Bonham. And it's almost a rule that drummers castigate Moon for his timekeeping, while Bonham doesn't receive a fraction of the same abuse.

(And just for the record, to me, both guys occupy just about the same level of the drumming firmament. One's pizza and the other's lasagna: I love them both, don't make me choose!)
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  #43  
Old 10-10-2017, 10:23 PM
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Dr_Watso Dr_Watso is offline
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Default Re: Click track overuse - examples?

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Originally Posted by philrudd View Post
You really think so? Interesting. Again, I'll have to defer to the more experienced drummer here; to my ear, Moon is sloppier than Bonham. And it's almost a rule that drummers castigate Moon for his timekeeping, while Bonham doesn't receive a fraction of the same abuse.
That's because people (who don't really know what the "best" drumming is) have been saying he's the "best drummer" for a long time now. He was a great musician, but his time and even execution often left some to be desired if you're really being critical. That said, I see no reason to be so critical, and the point remains that he made some of the most popular music ever.

To my ear, Moon certainly sounded sloppier, but that doesn't totally equate to "poor time". For example, he might be all over the place for a bar, but when he hits the 1 well enough, it still works. I also think he thought about it a bit less, but that's just my guess.

Suffice to say, by today's weird perfection standards where time is concerned, it's pretty easy to nit pick with both of those guys.
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  #44  
Old 10-11-2017, 12:09 AM
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Hollywood Jim Hollywood Jim is offline
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Default Re: Click track overuse - examples?

And doesn't this comment provide the perfect example of what clickless music can do if it's done right?

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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
That said, I see no reason to be so critical, and the point remains that he made some of the most popular music ever.

And this is exactly correct which also points to the fact that you can make great music without a click track.
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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
Suffice to say, by today's weird perfection standards where time is concerned, it's pretty easy to nit pick with both of those guys.
By the way, Moon sounded like he did because he was driving the band while also echoing the melody of the song.


.
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  #45  
Old 10-11-2017, 01:18 AM
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bermuda bermuda is offline
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Default Re: Click track overuse - examples?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
Suffice to say, by today's weird perfection standards where time is concerned, it's pretty easy to nit pick with both of those guys.
You need only try to tap your foot through most of Bonham's fills. Then you'll see. :)
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  #46  
Old 10-11-2017, 01:53 AM
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Steady Freddy Steady Freddy is offline
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Default Re: Click track overuse - examples?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
You need only try to tap your foot through most of Bonham's fills. Then you'll see. :)
As much as I love Bonham some of his fills were right on the edge of disaster. He'd some how manage to find the "one". Can't say he didn't go for it tho.
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  #47  
Old 10-11-2017, 02:45 AM
SmoothOperator SmoothOperator is offline
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Default Re: Click track overuse - examples?

That #2 in "Back in Time" totally needs to be quantized.

https://youtu.be/ILgn4eBflf0
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  #48  
Old 10-11-2017, 02:45 AM
beyondbetrayal beyondbetrayal is offline
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Default Re: Click track overuse - examples?

I don't think there is a "best" drummer. There is better people for different jobs. Some people may be better at measurable things such as speed, chops, certain styles, but in art it is all perspective.

Put up two paintings we both may have a favorite, that doesn't make one better than the other. Even if one was done by a child scribbling that doesn't mean I can tell you the other is "better" if you like the other one more.
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  #49  
Old 10-11-2017, 03:08 AM
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bermuda bermuda is offline
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Default Re: Click track overuse - examples?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steady Freddy View Post
As much as I love Bonham some of his fills were right on the edge of disaster. He'd some how manage to find the "one".
He typically created a new "one".

I love Bonham, but his time is nowhere near as profound as most drummers apparently think it is. It's not because he drifted - although, he did - but he would rush certain fills mercilessly. I can just picture Jimmy and John Paul's eyes darting towards each other during transitions!

Bermuda
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  #50  
Old 10-11-2017, 10:43 PM
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pmancuso pmancuso is offline
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Default Re: Click track overuse - examples?

I recently saw a live version of Stairway to Heaven on U-Tube and it started out good until John came in, what disaster. He was known for being laid back and behind the beat but this time he was rushing all over the place, maybe too much of the suds.
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  #51  
Old 10-11-2017, 11:39 PM
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Dr_Watso Dr_Watso is offline
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Default Re: Click track overuse - examples?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
He typically created a new "one".

I love Bonham, but his time is nowhere near as profound as most drummers apparently think it is. It's not because he drifted - although, he did - but he would rush certain fills mercilessly. I can just picture Jimmy and John Paul's eyes darting towards each other during transitions!

Bermuda
But what do you estimate this means? In your opinion, things might have sounded "better" if slaved to metronome time? Clearly, it didn't hamper their success even though we both agree the time was rarely anything even close to what you hear on today's records. The music was still exciting, and inspiring to pretty much everyone. I get told I'm "wrong" by people I don't even know when I admit that Zepp isn't really my favorite.

Did we find our example? Would Zepp have been "ruined" or even just not as good had they used a click? Or do you feel the opposite and that they should have worried about it more?
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