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  #1  
Old 09-17-2017, 06:33 PM
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Default Building an effects rack...

Ok so im beggining my research into building a preamp effects rack. My goal is to have 1 rack system that is good for live and recoring at home studio.

Here is what I came up with:

FocusRite Liquid Saffire 56 preamp
FocusRite Octo Pre Platinum channel expansion
Behringer Compressor Pro-XL MDX2600
Lexicon MX200 Reverb
XLR Patch bay.


What would you change and why?
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  #2  
Old 09-17-2017, 07:05 PM
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Default Re: Building a effects rack...

You might need a headphone amp if you are recording more than 1 track at a time.
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  #3  
Old 09-17-2017, 07:51 PM
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Default Re: Building a effects rack...

Well the only other thing that would be going on is the cover song playing that im learning. So like I want to hear the cover song and my drums in my headphones while recording, or the band and my drums in my headphones while playing live.
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  #4  
Old 09-18-2017, 05:56 AM
jornthedrummer jornthedrummer is offline
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Default Re: Building a effects rack...

Time has run away from some of those components. Buy a Behringer XR18 rack mixer.

Gives you 18 channel input/recording and all the effects you could ever dream of. You can get one for around USD 600.
You need an iPad, Android pad, etc to control it. But maybe you already have one.
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  #5  
Old 09-18-2017, 06:06 AM
Matt Bo Eder
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Default Re: Building a effects rack...

I need a clearer picture of what it is you're trying to accomplish. Provide more specifics of what you're wanting to do.
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  #6  
Old 09-18-2017, 01:54 PM
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Default Re: Building a effects rack...

Honestly, unless you have some seriously high end outboard gear I'd simply go with the best preamp/interface I could afford, with just the right amount of channels and do everything in the box.

Even if I had more stuff, I wouldn't use it live.
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  #7  
Old 09-18-2017, 02:28 PM
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Default Re: Building a effects rack...

I don't really know your situation, but you might have a job using it live unless you are fully in control of the sound (rather than a venue with its own sound gear).

Also like another poster said, this is perhaps all a bit old hat:

I used to do sound for bands and used an analog mixer with all outboard gear. Now I have a digital mixer (Allen & Heath QU-16, 16 mono channels, 3 stereo = 22 channels) I would never go back.. it's just so much easier. All the compressors, gates and FX are built in, and you have 10 flippin' aux buses!! Couple that with powered FOH speakers and powered wedge monitors and it's all so easy. On top of that, you can save "scenes", so you can recall your exact settings from any gig (this is priceless if gigging a lot, so much time saved).

Basically, if I am doing the sound with my rig, I have the QU-16 next to me and put the entire band through it. From there I can mix the monitors during sound check / performance. I use an iPad out front to set the sound up (it talks to the QU-16). Then I give the iPad to someone who understands sound, and play the gig.

People can also mix their own monitors using their phone..

PLUS you can multitrack record 18 channels onto an external HD (you literally just plug a HD into the mixer, or even a USB stick at a pinch but it doesn't work quite as well). AND you can use the mixer as an external sound interface for your laptop.

If I am not in control of the sound, I just let the venue sound people deal with it and forget about sound. It's much more relaxing that way.

I was very reluctant to go digital, but am very glad I did. It's not expensive either.. And the cheaper Behringer board someone else mentioned is also very good from what I hear.

Photos from a recent Wedding gig.. no racks or amps in site, nice clean easy set up, just 1 mixer on a table next to my drums (you can just see it in the first photo), running 18 channels for the band and 4 monitor mixes (3 wedges, 1 stereo IEM) : -

(And yes I am ashamed I forgot to replace the clear bass drum head! It looks messy)



EDIT: There is one down side to all of this: single point of failure. If the mixer goes, I'm screwed. However, I do carry a little Zed 100 analog mixer with me that I can stick the money channels through (vocals) if needed. For the price of the Behringer XR18 though it's probably worth picking one up as a back up / second mixer. It's all much easier and cheaper these days.
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Last edited by Mark_S; 09-18-2017 at 03:37 PM.
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  #8  
Old 09-18-2017, 04:59 PM
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Default Re: Building a effects rack...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Odd-Arne Oseberg View Post
Honestly, unless you have some seriously high end outboard gear I'd simply go with the best preamp/interface I could afford, with just the right amount of channels and do everything in the box.

Even if I had more stuff, I wouldn't use it live.
Something like this perhaps where you just need good mic's. and a computer?
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ZenStudioPlus
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  #9  
Old 09-18-2017, 05:11 PM
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Default Re: Building a effects rack...

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Originally Posted by Jeremy Bender View Post
Something like this perhaps where you just need good mic's. and a computer?
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ZenStudioPlus
Probably wasted unless you have a seriously good room to record in... The room affects the sound far more than any tiny difference boutique electronics make (IMO). You'd probably be better off spending the money on acoustic treatment. Zero chance of noticing the difference live.

EDIT: Having said that, it does have 20 inputs so maybe it's not so boutique (even then, only 8 have mic pres).. Still on the upper end of the price range for the application maybe?

EDIT: Actually it's got 12 mic pres.. serves me right for not investigating properly. It looks kinda nice for small studio use actually with the high sample rates, but would certainly be the very most I'd spend unless I was building a high end studio.

For live and practicing / recording demos I'd still save a lot of money and go Behringer XR18 or A&H QU-16 or 24. I doubt you'd notice much if any difference in a blind test, and they are probably more versatile live (more mic pres, UI designed to be used live, etc).
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Last edited by Mark_S; 09-18-2017 at 05:43 PM.
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  #10  
Old 09-19-2017, 04:03 AM
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Default Re: Building a effects rack...

I appreciate all the feedback.. I guess im just an old school guy i figure.. I havent kept up with the new stuff..

Just looking to build a rack that I can use for home studio and playing live. Kinda Cheap and dirty for now. I want to start recoring my own stuff.

I can get a used mackie 24 ch mixer almost new condition for 300, decent pa and monitor set for 1300. then its just a matter of tying in the effects.

I have a 50' x 30' pole barn that im going to build a small studio in.

gigging out alot things get broke easy. Id rather have a 50 dollar rack unit compressor get the beating and easily replaced with another then a 600 unit that some jamoke spills his drink on and fries it..

I can bridge the old units into my laptop running cake walk of something.. and mix my own stuff at work..Since I do not have anyone to show me hands on how to use the new digital stuff, ive run plenty of mixers in my time.. i know i can do it.. 100 foot snake closed off mixing room, little bit of tweaking in the barn to get good sound and I have an effective means to have the entire band in place to record decent quality demos and If we headline our own shows, the sound will be big and loud for cheap and not to bad sounding.
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  #11  
Old 09-20-2017, 06:45 PM
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Default Re: Building a effects rack...

Let me ask a question that I think would elicit better answers.

I have 10 mics on my drum kit. Im holding the opposite ends of the XLR cables ready to plug them into something.


What goes between the end of my xlr and my laptop? I need both live and home studio applications or something that works for both..


3..2..1 go
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  #12  
Old 09-20-2017, 07:08 PM
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Default Re: Building a effects rack...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Let me ask a question that I think would elicit better answers.

I have 10 mics on my drum kit. Im holding the opposite ends of the XLR cables ready to plug them into something.


What goes between the end of my xlr and my laptop? I need both live and home studio applications or something that works for both..


3..2..1 go
You need a USB audio interface to take your mic signals to get them into your computer. But most interfaces allow for 8-inputs for a relatively simple set-up. To accommodate more at one time, you may be getting into ProTools territory.

I used the Focusrite 18i20 for 8-mics and it worked great. Make sure your laptop can handle processing all that incoming audio.
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  #13  
Old 09-20-2017, 07:13 PM
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Default Re: Building a effects rack...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Bo Eder View Post
You need a USB audio interface to take your mic signals to get them into your computer. But most interfaces allow for 8-inputs for a relatively simple set-up. To accommodate more at one time, you may be getting into ProTools territory.

I used the Focusrite 18i20 for 8-mics and it worked great. Make sure your laptop can handle processing all that incoming audio.
Matt, thank you.. I was eyeballing the focusrite stuff. now follow up. If I want to add compression and reverb to the sound, am I doing that with the software on the computer or do you have an effects unit tied into the focus rite like a compressor and or reverb unit? im wondering is it better to send the final compressed and reverbed signal to the laptop or add the effects on the track within cake walk or pro tools
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  #14  
Old 09-20-2017, 07:19 PM
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Default Re: Building a effects rack...

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Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Matt, thank you.. I was eyeballing the focusrite stuff. now follow up. If I want to add compression and reverb to the sound, am I doing that with the software on the computer or do you have an effects unit tied into the focus rite like a compressor and or reverb unit? im wondering is it better to send the final compressed and reverbed signal to the laptop or add the effects on the track within cake walk or pro tools
These days it's easier to do that in the computer. In fact, a lot of third party companies make software plug-ins for traditional effects and dynamics processing. But the more you have the computer do, the more powerful the computer has to be and have as much RAM as it'll take. A friend of mine has a full ProTools set-up, buts it's plugged into a huge desktop Macintosh that at the time was top of the line. But he can run 24-channels with no problem. I'm not sure how much a powerful laptop can handle, I would think 8-channels would be sufficient on a laptop.
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  #15  
Old 09-20-2017, 07:23 PM
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Default Re: Building a effects rack...

An FMR Real Nice Compressor is a far better compressor than the Behringer, and about the same $.
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  #16  
Old 09-20-2017, 07:41 PM
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Default Re: Building a effects rack...

How you solve it is up to what makes practical sense to you.

My main point is that a digital mixer or DAW w/plug-ins will do anything you want these days, they're small light and you would have to spend tons of money to compete with the quality using outboard units. It's just easier and probably way less noise, too.
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  #17  
Old 09-20-2017, 07:51 PM
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Default Re: Building a effects rack...

Wait.. what happened to going analog? ;-)

In the heat of a live situation, having "been there and done that" with both analog and digital, I still think you'd be better off with a proper digital mixer with motorised faders. It can act as *both* a standard mixer AND an audio interface.

If I plug my mixer into my laptop via USB (which I do far less than I thought I would), it gives the laptop 18 channels in Logic (the only limitation with my particular mixer is that it is 48khz/24bit sample rate locked, but I've not had any issue with that.

It is a bit of a learning curve, I admit, but well worth it.

Excuse my frustration, it's hard to get across just how many problems it solves.

My workflow is basically this : -

Do either my practise or live sessions using just the mixer, using its inbuilt compressors, gates, reverbs, delays, parametric EQ on every channel, eq on all output buses, etc.. The attached external hard drive captures the raw input of each channel (when you play back in the mixer, it uses all your current channel settings/fx etc).

If I decide I want to do a proper demo mix of my recording, I import the recorded channels into Logic.

With my analog rig, to do that I needed my analog mixer, plus loads of outboard gear and masses of associated cabling, plus a computer with at least 16 channel interface, and a fricken insert for each channel from mixer to interface. It was hurrendous, and no fun setting up in the pressure of a live situation. Oh, and a 60ft snake (which I made myself!) so you can put the mixer out front.. you can't control an analog mixer remotely..

If you're going to get just an audio interface and do it all with a laptop instead of a digital mixer, at least get one with lots of inputs AND lots of outputs.. don't forget you need aux buses for monitoring purposes. Band's don't take kindly to not having monitors!

Sorry I'll shut up now ;-) Just trying to help.
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  #18  
Old 09-20-2017, 08:35 PM
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Default Re: Building a effects rack...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
What would you change and why?
Personally, I would drop all of it and grab a single StudioLive AI.

We've switched to these in all (4) of our clubs, and they have been a pleasure to work with. It uncomplicates so much shit.
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Old 09-20-2017, 08:42 PM
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Default Re: Building a effects rack...

Mark.. Thank you.


So now you have me curious. I looking various digital mixers. in the 24 channel area as I would like to use it for both live and studio.

So let me paraphrase what your saying.

the digital mixer in a studio session records raw data then you mix it off the hard drive using onboard effects from the mixer?

In a live situation, its same thing only the FX are applied real time as the raw signal is applied through the mixer

Did I get that right?

Now about vocal FX or guitar pedals etc. how do those tie in with the digital mixer ? Its just applied to the raw signal to the mixer...correct?

So If i seem dense.. next year about this time I will have access to some coin and I want to besure I set myself up properly for home and live situations.
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Old 09-20-2017, 08:44 PM
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Default Re: Building a effects rack...

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Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
Personally, I would drop all of it and grab a single StudioLive AI.

We've switched to these in all (4) of our clubs, and they have been a pleasure to work with. It uncomplicates so much shit.
Can you see a pattern emerging in what we are all saying? ;-)

Good options are the A&H Qu series, StudioLive as mentioned by KamaK, and the Behringer X stuff. There's also Yamaha, Soundcraft and I believe Roland has a compact 32 channel board out there. Here is a reddit thread where they argue the virtues of some of them : -

https://www.reddit.com/r/livesound/c..._a_better_buy/

But at the end of the day, it comes down to budget and what features you require.

EDIT: Ohio, I've just seen your other post. I need to grab a shower, go for a walk and then go practise for a bit.. hope you don't mind if I reply later? Or maybe someone else will fill in some of the blanks in the meantime :-)
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  #21  
Old 09-20-2017, 08:54 PM
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Default Re: Building a effects rack...

no problem sir reply when you get a chance.. lol happy drumming
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  #22  
Old 09-20-2017, 09:46 PM
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Default Re: Building a effects rack...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Bo Eder View Post
These days it's easier to do that in the computer. In fact, a lot of third party companies make software plug-ins for traditional effects and dynamics processing. But the more you have the computer do, the more powerful the computer has to be and have as much RAM as it'll take. A friend of mine has a full ProTools set-up, buts it's plugged into a huge desktop Macintosh that at the time was top of the line. But he can run 24-channels with no problem. I'm not sure how much a powerful laptop can handle, I would think 8-channels would be sufficient on a laptop.
It depends but I've seen a 64+ setup on a laptop before. Just a very good laptop running Thunderbolt...

Ohio - get the best interface you can afford. A lot of interfaces now have ADAT in, which lets you connect a further number of channels. My little interface only has two XLR inputs but it can accept an external preamp via ADAT that can add another 8 channel - for a total of 10 XLR inputs. You might be better off just buying a decent 8-channel interface with ADAT capability so that you can eventually have 16 inputs. External preamps are more money but then you only buy one when you need it...

It's much easier to run all your effects from a computer. If you're dealing with outboard and you want to edit using outboard, you'll also need a number of sends on an interface.

The interface I use at work is a Pro Tools HD setup with 16-in, 16-out into a 16-channel (48 input) analogue desk and I can either work fully digitally or mix in the analogue realm, with outboard etc. using Pro Tools as if it were a tape recorder. That's really much more complicated than necessary. When I teach in the studio, I start with just a two-track (stereo) output and mix in the box (digitally). You can get superb results that way and if you buy an external MIDI controller, it can even feel like you're mixing on an analogue desk, with faders, etc.

And the StudioLive gets rave reviews. Never used one but it looks seriously good. Dante, too.

In an unrelated note, if anybody is thinking about using Dante check that you haven't got any network switching hardware between things...
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Old 09-20-2017, 10:34 PM
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Default Re: Building an effects rack...

I read the reddit report.

I think i might go with the x32. it seems to be in my price range and most of the reviews claimed x32.

That link is a couple years old so I would imagine the firmware updates are pretty well maxed out and it works better then day 1.

But I think I understand now it has onboard effects and you can control the mixer wireless with ipad which is good if your running your own sound and I can just USB into my laptop from it while im recording myself.

Still would need a snake for live applications so much crap to mic i will have 10 mics on the drums alone.
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Old 09-20-2017, 11:22 PM
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Default Re: Building an effects rack...

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Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
I read the reddit report.

I think i might go with the x32. it seems to be in my price range and most of the reviews claimed x32.

Still would need a snake for live applications so much crap to mic i will have 10 mics on the drums alone.
Random Notes:

If you're going to be using it for live, make certain to get a decent travel case. If the mixer will be out front, make sure to get a snake reel. Ultimately, you want a setup that makes plugging/unplugging from the mixer unnecessary. Inputs only break when you touch them, so anything that reduces the number of duty cycles is a huge win.

Motorized faders == awesome for studio.

Make certain to save your drum-mix settings scenes. The objective is to plug in, push a button, and have the mixing be 90% complete.

Does the X32 have some form of room control/calibration like the AI has? I see the loudspeaker simulation, but nothing like a Audyssey DynEQ/Vol clone. Room-control has been one of the greatest gifts we've received from Presonus, allowing us to make shows seem louder at a much lower volume.
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Old 09-20-2017, 11:32 PM
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Default Re: Building an effects rack...

I use an x32 as a live desk at work (I really am a lucky bugger, Audient ASP 4816 in the studio, x32 upstairs) and I don't think it has room calibration.

I will say that it's just about the easiest and most intuitive digital desk I've ever used. We run it with the S16 snake, which is just fantastic and gives you your channels on Cat5 - great if you're at the back of an auditorium and the band is at the front like with us.

Everything is clearly laid out, the menus are easy to navigate, the EQ is decent, the compressor is decent, the reverbs are decent and the preamps are decent. The motorised faders are great and if you set scenes properly, incredibly useful. One of the most useful things I find with the x32 is being able to re-assign channel inputs. You might have a mic plugged into preamp 1 but want to control it from channel 26 (for instance) and you can quickly and painlessly re-assign it. The coloured and labelled channel strips are great too. It's just a fantastic desk.

If you want it as a studio interface and live desk, get the interface card (it's a bit extra) and use it that way. You don't lose any live capability. You can just plug in a USB stick (up to 8GB, I found out the hard way) and select a buss to record a stereo file from. I usually just use the master. Useful for capturing live shows but you don't have any mixdown capability afterwards - just a stereo track.

I will honestly say that it's the best live desk I've ever used for ease of use and quality of result. I usually hate digital desks for live use but the x32 is very much the exception. And it's not that expensive, either.
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Old 09-21-2017, 02:02 PM
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Default Re: Building an effects rack...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
I read the reddit report.

I think i might go with the x32. it seems to be in my price range and most of the reviews claimed x32.

That link is a couple years old so I would imagine the firmware updates are pretty well maxed out and it works better then day 1.

But I think I understand now it has onboard effects and you can control the mixer wireless with ipad which is good if your running your own sound and I can just USB into my laptop from it while im recording myself.

Still would need a snake for live applications so much crap to mic i will have 10 mics on the drums alone.
You do not need a snake if you have the mixer on stage (I have mine right next to my drums). You can control it remotely with an iPad or similar. I'm sure it'll all become clear once you've got your hands on it.

Anyway, would be interested to know how you get on with the Behringer :-)

PS, if you want to be sure, I'd advise trying both the Behringer and the A&H if you can before buying. They have quite different interfaces from what I hear, and you might find you prefer one over the other. Both will have pros and cons, and a bit of a learning curve. At the end of the day though, it is down to you.

Best of luck with it!
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