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  #1  
Old 07-19-2017, 03:11 PM
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Default Forum wisdom, check my logic

OK so I'm trying to determine something. I'm trying to determine the duration of a metronome click. Why you ask? I want to see how accurate a drummer has to be to bury the click.

On Youtube, you can hear metronomes at silly fast speeds, like 10,000 BPM.

Based on that, after a metronome gets a little past 2000 BPM, I can't make out the individual hits, and it sounds like a continuous tone.

So for arguments sake, I arbitrarily use 2000 as the max speed threshold that my ears can distinguish individual hits, which works out to 33.3 BPS. So in my mind, a rough estimate.... to bury a click, a drummer has to fire at an accuracy rate of somewhere near 1/33rd of a second to bury a click at 2000 BPM.

That seems like a really narrow window, not attainable by humans. (I have no idea, I'm guessing)

I don't know if this has any bearing, but during one second, I can only count to about 10 in my mind, there's not enough time to count any higher. So I think bare minimal, to bury a click, a drummer needs to have an accuracy rate of 1/10th of a second.

I would like to hear the forum wisdom, specifically, do you think I'm in the ballpark or way off?
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Old 07-19-2017, 03:38 PM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

What do you mean by "bury a click?" Do you mean playing so accurately that you don't even hear it when you are playing with it?
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Old 07-19-2017, 04:00 PM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

Throw it out the window, hate metronomes they suck. let it go keep time with the garden gnomes. ha!
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Old 07-19-2017, 04:04 PM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

Larry, what have I told you about mixing weed and thought??
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Old 07-19-2017, 04:23 PM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

My favorite response about metronomes:

"I can't find one that's accurate. Every one I've ever tried always slows down during the choruses." :)
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Old 07-19-2017, 04:33 PM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

Quote:
Originally Posted by PorkPieGuy View Post
My favorite response about metronomes:

"I can't find one that's accurate. Every one I've ever tried always slows down during the choruses." :)
Hahahahaha, good one
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Old 07-19-2017, 04:37 PM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

Larry,
Are you going back to your death metal roots? LOL!!
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Old 07-19-2017, 05:27 PM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

You can practice burying your beat right here...

https://www.concerthotels.com/got-rhythm
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Old 07-19-2017, 05:31 PM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

Capture the metronome in audacity and you can see the duration of the sound. It has nothing to do with the speed at which you can count. Then you can capture the various sounds made by bass, snare and hh. Compare them. If the drum sound is longer than the metronome sound the delta difference gives you the amount of slop you can have and still bury the click.

I too suggest however not to mix weed with available time to think too much!
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Old 07-19-2017, 06:29 PM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

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Originally Posted by drummer-russ View Post
Capture the metronome in audacity and you can see the duration of the sound. It has nothing to do with the speed at which you can count. Then you can capture the various sounds made by bass, snare and hh. Compare them. If the drum sound is longer than the metronome sound the delta difference gives you the amount of slop you can have and still bury the click.
That's very helpful. I didn't think of that, thanks.

You guys should know better, every thought I have is mixed with weed and has been for the last 17 years, and dat's the name o' dat tune.
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Old 07-19-2017, 06:57 PM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
So for arguments sake, I arbitrarily use 2000 as the max speed threshold that my ears can distinguish individual hits, which works out to 33.3 BPS. So in my mind, a rough estimate.... to bury a click, a drummer has to fire at an accuracy rate of somewhere near 1/33rd of a second to bury a click at 2000 BPM.

That seems like a really narrow window, not attainable by humans. (I have no idea, I'm guessing)
Well, I know Chuck Norris could play faster, but that's a given.
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  #12  
Old 07-19-2017, 07:46 PM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

I did a study a few years back on calibrating a stopwatch. I did about 30 tries at stopping the clock at exactly one minute; the standard deviation was 0.12 seconds.

But that was visual cue to thumb-press reaction only. I can only assume more muscles and bones would make that number a bit larger. I'd also bet that the time from an auditory cue to stick/drumhead contact would grow even more.

I'd say it would be exactly 0.24 s with an estimated uncertainty of 0.5 s reported at a 68 % confidence level.

Of course, your mileage may vary. ;-)
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  #13  
Old 07-19-2017, 07:52 PM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

Quote:
Originally Posted by drummer-russ View Post
... If the drum sound is longer than the metronome sound the delta difference gives you the amount of slop you can have and still bury the click. ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
That's very helpful. I didn't think of that, thanks.

...
I think the amplitude of the click would matter too. Wouldn't a practice pad hit at 20db have a hard time burying a click at 80db ???

(... inhales deeply ...)
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  #14  
Old 07-19-2017, 08:22 PM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

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Originally Posted by 60's Drummer View Post
I think the amplitude of the click would matter too. Wouldn't a practice pad hit at 20db have a hard time burying a click at 80db ???

(... inhales deeply ...)
A bury is a bury, the decibel level is another discussion is my first thought. The drum is closer to my ear, so burying isn't an issue with the proper balance of drum and PA.
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Old 07-19-2017, 08:31 PM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoke View Post
I did a study a few years back on calibrating a stopwatch. I did about 30 tries at stopping the clock at exactly one minute; the standard deviation was 0.12 seconds.

But that was visual cue to thumb-press reaction only. I can only assume more muscles and bones would make that number a bit larger. I'd also bet that the time from an auditory cue to stick/drumhead contact would grow even more.

I'd say it would be exactly 0.24 s with an estimated uncertainty of 0.5 s reported at a 68 % confidence level.

Of course, your mileage may vary. ;-)
This is either an honest hypothesis or a really great cloaked mock, I can't figure out which :)
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Old 07-19-2017, 08:43 PM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
This is either an honest hypothesis or a really great cloaked mock, I can't figure out which :)
Smoke's reaction time is .12, which is on the 'good' side of the human scale. In general, only those that have some degree of training will achieve sub-tenth-of-a-second reaction times (drag racers, athletes, etc).


Unfortunately, playing to a metronome isn't based on reaction time, as you're not reacting to the pulse.
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  #17  
Old 07-19-2017, 08:57 PM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

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Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
Smoke's reaction time is .12, which is on the 'good' side of the human scale. In general, only those that have some degree of training will achieve sub-tenth-of-a-second reaction times (drag racers, athletes, etc).


Unfortunately, playing to a metronome isn't based on reaction time, as you're not reacting to the pulse.
The .12 is Smoke's deviation time, not reaction time, as I understand it. What I am looking for is the accuracy factor. The reaction factor is not being discussed here. To play to a click at 120 BPM for instance, what is my accuracy quotient that I need to nail it properly? Does my hit have to be accurate to a 10th of a second, a 5th, a 25th...I am just curious.
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Old 07-19-2017, 09:16 PM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

Good question Larry got me thinking how fast can a human muscle twitch-but I found this on Pubmed "The winner of an international contest to find the world's fastest drummer (WFD) can perform repetitive wrist tapping movements with one hand using a handheld drumstick at 10Hz, much faster than the maximum tapping frequency of 5-7Hz in the general population. The muscle activity facilitating this improved performance, however, has only recently been explored. The present study investigated the rise rate and timing variability of surface electromyographic (EMG) activity of wrist flexor/extensor muscles in the WFD, and compared them with those in two control groups: non-drummers (NDs) and ordinary drummers (ODs). The WFD showed more rapid EMG amplitude rise, earlier decline of EMG activity, and more stable muscle activation time than the NDs and ODs. In addition, there was a significant correlation between the EMG rise rate and the duration of drum training in the group of drummers (i.e., ODs and WFD). These results indicate that the 10-Hz performance of the WFD was achieved by a 'sharper' and 'less noisy' burst pattern of wrist muscles, and that drum training would have the effect to increase the speed of development of muscle tension." So we can use 10 Hz as our fastest drum speed to date, then 2000 BPM divided by 60 is 33 Hz our fastest speed we can detect individual notes. Dang we got a ways to go in the WFD to top out. However I take the Devo philosophy of just "whip it good" and maybe "crack that whip".
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Old 07-19-2017, 09:59 PM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
This is either an honest hypothesis or a really great cloaked mock, I can't figure out which :)
The first half was a real study (I'm a metrologist), the second half - pure hogwash.

Regarding playing drums to the click a small mythical city dweller. Got it! you're looking for delta time, not absolute time. Mea culpa.

How close do you have to be to bury the click? Probably depends a lot on the duration of the click itself. I'd bet if you played accurately to within 20 % of the length of the click sound, most folks wouldn't notice it. I'd call that a buried click.
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  #20  
Old 07-20-2017, 07:17 PM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
That's very helpful. I didn't think of that, thanks.

You guys should know better, every thought I have is mixed with weed and has been for the last 17 years, and dat's the name o' dat tune.
you are welcome. I am used to working in microseconds for automation machine cycle times. We have to deal with that constantly. I really think that is a workable formula.
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Old 07-23-2017, 02:47 PM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

Taking the Audacity idea a step further. Video tape yourself playing along to your metronome at various BPM and then examine it in video editing software by zooming in on the video timeline.
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  #22  
Old 07-24-2017, 04:15 AM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

Wow, I'm a drum geek and even I find this over the top. I dig it though because why not?

All I know is that when I'm on I can't hear the metronome when I'm playing on the pad. The metronome is just a click sound and the pad is obviously a short pad sound.

It's all about gaining the ability to gauge yourself relative to the pulse and adjust to match it. Gavin Harrison used to record himself and then play it back in slow motion to really exaggerate the inconsistencies. I should do that.
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  #23  
Old 07-24-2017, 05:56 AM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

So I guess laying down a good groove with other musicians is no longer good enough for Larry?
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Old 07-24-2017, 06:38 AM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

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Originally Posted by Jeff Almeyda View Post
Wow, I'm a drum geek and even I find this over the top. I dig it though because why not?

All I know is that when I'm on I can't hear the metronome when I'm playing on the pad. The metronome is just a click sound and the pad is obviously a short pad sound.

It's all about gaining the ability to gauge yourself relative to the pulse and adjust to match it. Gavin Harrison used to record himself and then play it back in slow motion to really exaggerate the inconsistencies. I should do that.
I have taken a fair amount of time to compare the drumming "greats" against a metronome. It's way more interesting and educational, than listening to me botch it. :D

if it's about milliseconds, I'd rather be an offender than an obeyer, who can't groove or swing, etc.
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Old 07-24-2017, 03:55 PM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

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So I guess laying down a good groove with other musicians is no longer good enough for Larry?
Yea, that's right. The time has to be perfect. If the groove isn't there, it doesn't matter as long as the time is perfect. Perfect time is the cure for the worlds illnesses.

Groove, pfft. Perfect time is where it's at lads.

:P
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Old 07-24-2017, 03:56 PM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

Does anyone know of any musical courses that study time?

I want to say there is none but I don't really know.
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Old 07-24-2017, 04:11 PM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

So I think I figured out an actual answer to my question.

Accuracy is dependent on tempo. At 120 BPM, or 2 BPS, I'd have to be accurate to .5 seconds to bury the click. At 240 BPM, or 4 BPS, I'd have to be accurate to .25 of a second. And so on. Not as small an amount of time as I initially thought.
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Old 07-24-2017, 04:21 PM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

I know these have been discussed in the past but I'm wondering if anyone on this thread has used/uses one of these? Among other things, it's supposed to measure your accuracy of burying a click:
https://www.amazon.com/OnBoard-Resea.../dp/B000GF1CNS
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Last edited by spleeeeen; 07-24-2017 at 09:48 PM. Reason: Provided a bit more info.
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Old 07-24-2017, 04:32 PM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

I don't know Larry but all this reminds me of my Organic chemistry undergrad prof-he was chairman and literally a "nut" about time-he'd get up to set his watch to the international time clock, had his lectures precisely timed-no interruption (so no questions asked) and even timed how long it would take to replace projector bulb. He'd just read the book to us. He was neat nut too-his book on a podium opened ready for the day's "reading"-replacement bulbs and pens set out all neat. So I'd arrive early and mess everything up just to screw with his head-I was hippie back then so I'd come to class in a tank top, bell bottoms and often barefoot-he had a fit over my bare feet in class (but there was no rule against it-heck you could smoke in class and halls)-which told me I can't do that in lab (so I'd wear these stinky sneakers I had for fishing). Eventually he told me I didn't have to come to class-just take exams and do labs-we had a big argument and cussed each other out (I told him he sucks as an educator- don't need anyone to read the book to me). Needless to say he loved me. LOL
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Old 07-24-2017, 05:24 PM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
So I think I figured out an actual answer to my question.

Accuracy is dependent on tempo. At 120 BPM, or 2 BPS, I'd have to be accurate to .5 seconds to bury the click. At 240 BPM, or 4 BPS, I'd have to be accurate to .25 of a second. And so on. Not as small an amount of time as I initially thought.
Not buying this Larry. The sound of the click on any metronome I have heard is not .5 seconds in duration.
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Old 07-24-2017, 05:35 PM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

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Not buying this Larry. The sound of the click on any metronome I have heard is not .5 seconds in duration.
I think I am being misunderstood.

In my mind, the attack of a drumstick on a pad for instance...I contend that it's pretty close in duration, to the duration of a click. (not counting the after glow of a snare drum, just the attack)

So if I want to bury a click at 2 BPS, I have to fire at exactly .5 of a second continuously. If I fire at .48 or .52 of a second, I won't bury it.

Does that put a finer point on it Russ?
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Old 07-24-2017, 08:22 PM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

much more clear. Without trying to evaluate your numbers what you are saying is that you have .04 second window to bit the drum and thus bury the click. This sounds quite plausible.
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Old 07-25-2017, 01:16 AM
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Default Re: Forum wisdom, check my logic

Obviously this depends on the metronome.

Some of them are mechanical "clicks" some of them are computer "beeps" and some of them are even shorter or longer sounds. I've heard some that are these weird like "ticks" that almost sound like a tap played backwards or something.

If it makes you feel better though I can go outside and bury one in the yard.
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