DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > General Discussion

General Discussion General discussion forum for all drum related topics. Use this forum to exchange ideas and information with your fellow drummers.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 07-18-2017, 05:28 AM
Lee-Bro Lee-Bro is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Ft. Thomas, KY
Posts: 220
Default Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

https://medium.com/@drewmatthewtucke...n-68829465d82f
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-18-2017, 06:00 AM
Matt Bo Eder
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

I can so relate to this article, because I almost did it, and I've been on the student side of watching a teacher who was only into it for the "stability".

It's a sad state of affairs, and it's sadder for the music educator. The other regular teachers at least are more in line with what the school is pushing (math, science, language, etc.,...). Every HS music educator I've ever met has always had to battle for funding, with people who aren't quite against you, but not quite with you, either (like the football team, or the science folks).

Luckily, I didn't go down this path, and I've never told students to go down this path. Every HS kid I've known was drawn to performance, so I would always ask why they would want to teach. Teaching and performing are two different things, so the best bet was to find a way to make what you love pay the bills. I think I influenced more students that way, and more students decided not to even study music in school after HS, which I thought was cool too.

Great article.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-18-2017, 08:27 AM
AzHeat's Avatar
AzHeat AzHeat is online now
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posts: 989
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Well, unfortunately it's not limited to music there are so many carriers that are touted as the go to degree and end up no better off that music education. If the colleges told you that, they would only attract a tenth of the attendees. Can't have that.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-18-2017, 08:35 AM
Matt Bo Eder
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

I had a sarcastic discussion with someone who was thinking about auditioning to get in to Berklee one year. I basically told him to just show up with a check and ask them for the total tuition for the first year, then write the check. They'll let him in.

What a lot of HS students don't understand is that they're paying for their education. So, like going to McDonald's to buy a Big Mac, if I give you x-amount of money, I want my Big Mac. If you can't do that, I'll go somewhere else.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-18-2017, 01:45 PM
SmoothOperator SmoothOperator is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,048
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by AzHeat View Post
Well, unfortunately it's not limited to music there are so many carriers that are touted as the go to degree and end up no better off that music education. If the colleges told you that, they would only attract a tenth of the attendees. Can't have that.
Yeah, I think it is particularly annoying when you go to a grind school(engineering no girls), then when you get out they're like, "It's not about what you know it's about who you know." Could've gone to a music school and had much more fun. I think there is a reason college professors make like 35K on average.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-18-2017, 02:14 PM
GruntersDad's Avatar
GruntersDad GruntersDad is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Gulf Coast Seminole, Florida
Posts: 21,171
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

I think the part about funding is the biggest hurdle and it's only getting worse, but I know a lot of people who have majors in many fields who had no clue what the job opportunities were going to be four years down the road. Three monthes before I graduated with my teaching degree the university told me they place 100% of their grads in teaching jobs. I never taught day 0ne. Do your research and make sure.
__________________
johnny
Suum cuique tribuere....
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-18-2017, 02:38 PM
GetAgrippa's Avatar
GetAgrippa GetAgrippa is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: U.S.
Posts: 2,221
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Sadly music education, and art, are often the first areas cut in schools when financial problems arise-yet hundreds of studies demonstrate the value of learning a musical instrument and increasing IQ. I assume the author is talking about teaching in public schools, but it's no different in college either-a couple of the brass players in a big band I use to play were college profs and they would lament their troubles. I was in a STEM field and the expectation was to teach, research, and community service. I could go off on a bitch fest now but I'll save you the trouble of reading it.
__________________
"Only play the notes when required!"
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-18-2017, 03:06 PM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is offline
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 19,462
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Sadly, this is good advice these days.

To me performing music isn't something one needs to go to school for, like fishing, jogging, swimming, playing with your children, having sex, dancing, eating a great dinner, driving, going for a walk, drinking some beer....I could go on. If it's something I want to do badly enough then I simply do it.

Now teaching, different story. How many musicians get into music because they want to teach? I have no clue but I'll guess 5% tops. The other 95% just want to play. If I wanted to learn how to swim, sure I could read a book, take a class, study the great swimmers....or I could just jump in a shallow pool and just start doing it. I'm in the "just get on with it" faction.

There are types of people who will simply try things that appeal to them, while others think that it's this big long complicated process and everything must be studied. Some things for sure need to be studied, like scuba diving, but basically, I can't relate to the 2nd faction at all when it comes to doing something that I want to do, and know I can pull off. I just do it and try not to complicate things.

I personally know one drummer who has a performance degree. A degree can't improve a person's personality. This guy has no heart. There's no excitement, he's very ho hum. He's an OK player, but he has zero fire. You can't teach that. It's either there, or it hasn't shown up yet, or it never will.
__________________
Sucking all the fun right out of life....
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-18-2017, 04:23 PM
PorkPieGuy's Avatar
PorkPieGuy PorkPieGuy is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 1,671
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

I have so many random thoughts on this subject:

1. My parents refused to pay for my schooling if I decided to major in music. I made it almost a year and a half before dropping out. I'm glad they didn't support me in this endeavor. I would have hated teaching band.

2. One thing that the article doesn't mention is if you are a band director, you don't get a summer break unlike all of the other teachers do. You have to organize band camp, which includes new marchers camp usually at the beginning of the summer, and then you probably have to write the halftime show and start practicing it about halfway through the summer.

3. Forget having Friday nights off in the fall and possibly spring! If you are a band director, you have to play at every football game. If you have a home game, your band has to play and march the halftime show. If you have an away game, you usually have to travel with a pep band. Oh, and if the principal of the school thinks that basketball games need the band to play, then guess where you'll be every Friday night during the winter and early spring?

4. You like having your Saturdays free in the fall? Forget it. Fall is band competition season, you can bank on going to about 4-5 band competitions each fall. They take all day, and they are exhausting for everyone.

5. Once fall is over, it's over, right? No sir. You have to learn Christmas music for your Christmas concert AND you have to prep for the Christmas parade(s).

6. Think you have spring off? Nope. National band competitions take place in the spring...usually in Florida. You have to plan and practice for that.

7. It's all done after the spring trip, right? No. You have to prep for the spring concert.

8. So after all of this, you have summers off, right? No, go back to item #2 and start over. Look at it this way...you only have to do this for 30 years before you can retire.

9. My music instructor in college said, "If you want to teach band, take classes. If you want to be a rock star, move to Nashville." I think there was some wisdom in that.

10. I know several people that majored in music...and none of them are teaching music now. One is a professional musician (he had A LOT of financial help from his parents), one is a principal at a high school, one can't keep a full-time job for more than a few months, and many of my friends who dropped out are doing anything BUT playing music. I have WAY more friends who are active musicians who can't read a piece of sheet music.

11. If you major in music, plan to move from your home town. We had to get our band director to move from Illinois to NC to come and teach us. If you plan to stay close to home, major in something else.

I'm all for music and learning an instrument, but I pray that my kids don't want to major in music. If they want to be rock stars, I'm going to tell them to move to Nashville. :)
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-18-2017, 04:32 PM
AzHeat's Avatar
AzHeat AzHeat is online now
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posts: 989
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by GruntersDad View Post
I think the part about funding is the biggest hurdle and it's only getting worse, but I know a lot of people who have majors in many fields who had no clue what the job opportunities were going to be four years down the road. Three monthes before I graduated with my teaching degree the university told me they place 100% of their grads in teaching jobs. I never taught day 0ne. Do your research and make sure.
Yeah the 100% placement story never changes. I was fed the line and wasted my life in school. When I could have been learning real skills. Not one person has given a rip about my degree since I started down the path of IT in 98. In that field certifications will get you hired faster than a degree. Usually those with current certs can also do the job better, provided they aren't professional test takers.

For four years I talked to my friends son who showed interest in the technology field and told him certs are king, certs are king, certs are king.....a college recruiter gave him the 100% placement BS and he forgot everything I told him about getting certs, then a job and let your employer reimburse you for related education, etc. He graduated with good grades, a whole bunch of useless theory, high expectations and a mountain of debt. He's now holding out for that job that starts him at 80k a year or more, because that's the line he was fed in college.

Sad, he was a super good kid with a good head on his shoulders, before college and now he's got this bizarre attitude that he's all that! He basically wants my job or better with zero experience. He's not alone. There are dreamers released every quarter and the only people winning are in the administration building.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-18-2017, 04:57 PM
GetAgrippa's Avatar
GetAgrippa GetAgrippa is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: U.S.
Posts: 2,221
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

I agree Larry you have to have a "passion" for something-and some careers an aptitude like good hands for chemist and research techs. I don't think most young people are introspective enough (I sure as hell wasn't-and unlike my wife who knew from a young child her chosen profession) to know their talents and what they should do to make a living. I was at a medical college for 14 years and noted lots of really "bright people" who were attending medical school with no passion for the profession-1) because they were smart and could do it 2) because they expected a really nice income. Now I don't mind being motivated by greed but I do mind having no passion because if you don't love it you will suck as a physician or whatever else you are doing-like research or teaching also.
I tell students now to do a cost-benefit analysis of what they want to do and average salaries to the cost of said education, then to ignore that (just want them to know the realities) and follow their passion because likely that fire will help (because no matter your choice there's always the bull crap) drive them to be persistent, work at it, and perhaps succeed. What good is inspiration without some perspiration.
__________________
"Only play the notes when required!"
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-18-2017, 05:03 PM
Morrisman's Avatar
Morrisman Morrisman is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: South Australia
Posts: 1,368
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

As a music teacher, I find the article very one sided.

I know plenty of high school students who have great people skills and maturity who have really wanted to be a teacher, to make a difference in the world. They are often multi-instrumentalists, with good theory and aural skills, etc. Kind of a jack of all trades musician. But they have to be realistic, and actually want to be a teacher, not just as a fall back position.

Some of my old students have gone indeed on to study music education, and many of them are now working around town and interstate. We employ some ourselves as instrumental tutors, or fill ins when someone is on leave, etc.

The culture of music teaching in schools obviously varies, but there are plently of highly successful, supportive programmes which are well funded and full of nice young people and families.

I'm in Australia, which has its own mix of strengths and weaknesses, but most Catholic and Private schools here have fairly extensive music programmes.

I've taken music tours to the US a number of times. Some of the Catholic schools we visit have extensive classroom music programmes. Others just have an after-school band, others have nothing at all. So it varies enormously depending on school priorities.

My sister ran a school in Tanzania for six years. They had no classroom music, but they had a great gospel choir who danced and clapped and drummed.

My point being that while there are some bad situations, there are plenty of really good, positive situations too.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-18-2017, 06:31 PM
DrumWild DrumWild is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 387
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

My mother used music as a way of getting me into college, when my true interest was to get out there and give a career in music a go. "You can major in Percussion Arts."

Fine.

I had a teacher, whom I won't name, who "taught" me drums since junior high school. We never got off the snare drum. He was like that with everyone, turns out.

He was my professor in college, and was going to be my marimba instructor. Problem was that my lesson was on a Monday at 8:00am. He lived over 80 miles away, and there was lots of snow on the ground most of the time.

He was there for my first lesson, and not again for the rest of the year. So I'd show up every Monday at 8:00am, I'd work on The Creston myself, and then I'd rehearse my 2 hours for every one hour of instruction. I also did this for upright string bass and piano.

Music Theory was interesting, but I did get miffed when the instructor asked us to write a melody. I wrote a melody that did not resolve. Something similar to this. She asked why, and I told her that it was to get attention, like on a subway. She got angry and declared that "it must resolve. Always!"

Between my main instructor never showing up [which was costing me $300 per hour] and the demoralizing Music Theory experience, I started to wonder what I would be doing with a degree in Music. This was in the early 80s, when the degree you got was all about what you dealt with, and I did not envision a day where a degree in ANYTHING had value.

So after the first year, I changed my major from Percussion Arts to T-Com. This involved two courses. The first was radio, and the second was television.

Long story short, I got stellar grades in radio. But when we got to television, we had a group project as the final. Nobody in my group wanted to participate, so I tried to do it myself.

This resulted in a failing grade in the television segment. And, since I failed television, my stellar grade in radio "did not matter," and I would have to start over.

After two years of this, I came to the conclusion that college wasn't for me. I wasn't going to be an architect, doctor, or lawyer, so there seemed to be no point.

With a music degree, I could be a teacher. Or I could wait for some symphony player to die so that I could fight a gaggle of other hopefuls for a seat, where I'd play triangle.

It wasn't for me, so I left.

Looking back, I feel like I made the best decision. I may go back to study something else, but I'm not sure what. The last thing I need is to get a degree, a TON of student debt, and then find out the market has shifted and no job that pays awaits me.
__________________
I don't really feel like I belong here, so please feel free to delete my account.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-18-2017, 06:43 PM
pgm554's Avatar
pgm554 pgm554 is online now
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 1,307
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee-Bro View Post
Take away the adjective of music and retain the noun of teacher and the argument is the same.

School teaching in the right school district is what matters.

You can teach Physics and math at an inner city school and be just as frustrated teaching music ed.

I have seen marching bands from various parts of the country that will blow your socks off in terms of musicianship.
It just depends upon the political will of the school board.

The school district I came from had produced some incredible players (Vince Colaiuta(Sting),Jeff Lashway (Maynard Ferguson),Van Redding (Commodores).

It was the number one marching bad on the east coast in the late 60's early 70's.

But economics destroyed a band that marched 135 plus to about 35 ,but then again,the school district collapsed from about 1300 or 1400 in high school to around 400.

I taught high school drum line for a band director friend and always enjoyed it.
Wish I could have taught at the high school college level,but couldn't afford to pay for music college.
__________________
Pearl MCX Gretsch Renown and many many Fibes snares.

Last edited by pgm554; 07-19-2017 at 02:56 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-18-2017, 06:53 PM
AzHeat's Avatar
AzHeat AzHeat is online now
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posts: 989
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumWild View Post
So after the first year, I changed my major from Percussion Arts to T-Com. This involved two courses. The first was radio, and the second was television.

Long story short, I got stellar grades in radio. But when we got to television, we had a group project as the final. Nobody in my group wanted to participate, so I tried to do it myself.
My long lost brother! I have finally found you... :D

Graduated with a broadcasting degree, going at it mostly alone, because I couldn't get anyone on the team to do anything, but party. I actually didn't fail it, but was running like crazy to make it happen. My friends never hesitated to cheese it up, so they were all my actors, etc.

When I finally got my degree, I discovered I was competing for the same job with eight others who had a 3 month Radio/TV crash coarse from some local fly by night operation. Three got hired and I was one of them. Once again, College did nothing, but waste my time and money. Eventually I got sick of the truth-in, lies-out BS of the broadcast industry, studied for a couple of IT certs on my own, and the rest is history.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-18-2017, 07:06 PM
PorkPieGuy's Avatar
PorkPieGuy PorkPieGuy is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 1,671
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by AzHeat View Post

When I finally got my degree, I discovered I was competing for the same job with eight others who had a 3 month Radio/TV crash coarse from some local fly by night operation. Three got hired and I was one of them.
I remember my roommate who was studying broadcasting at the university I attended. I told him that if he was really interested in broadcasting, he should go to the local community college. Most radio stations (at the time) didn't care if you had a 2-year or 4-year degree...as long a you had the chops to do what it takes to be on the air. The cost at the community college was probably 1/4 to 1/3 of the cost of the university...and students were finished in two years as opposed to four. I always thought it was crazy that people got a 4-year degree in broadcasting when it only took a 2-year degree from a local college.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AzHeat View Post

Eventually I got sick of the truth-in, lies-out BS of the broadcast industry, studied for a couple of IT certs on my own, and the rest is history.
I co-hosted a program a late-night program at a Christian-based radio station, so I never got caught up in the mucky-muck of the broadcast industry. From what I gather, it's pretty much a wild wild West where anything goes, stations never hire good management, and turn-over is at an incredible rate. I'm glad I never got into it.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-18-2017, 09:10 PM
Push pull stroke Push pull stroke is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 1,097
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Good things I got from my percussion performance degree--

1. A really, really discriminating ear. For time, pitch, etc..
2. Knowledge of how music history and regular history are so related. This is just generally interesting, not especially immediately useful.

Bad things--

1. Technique habits to unlearn.
2. A really discriminating ear. LOL this is a positive AND a negative. I'm never satisfied, with my playing or anyone else's.
3. arrogant attitude, that took years to start to unlearn.
4. The idea that you can master 1 small area of music and make a living at it.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-18-2017, 10:15 PM
opentune's Avatar
opentune opentune is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 5,719
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by AzHeat View Post
He's now holding out for that job that starts him at 80k a year or more, because that's the line he was fed in college.
Sad, he was a super good kid with a good head on his shoulders, before college and now he's got this bizarre attitude that he's all that! He basically wants my job or better with zero experience. He's not alone. There are dreamers released every quarter and the only people winning are in the administration building.
Not sure if I am reading your posts right, (excuse me if I am not) but you're basically dissing higher learning....college? Part of your friends sons issue, his attitude problem, is he is looking for instant job, 80K right away. Yes a dreamer. Not the failure of his 'college'. I agree with you about 'certs' , but those are field-dependent.
Regarding long term payoff of college...or not... I'll just put this figure here below (the stats on large numbers of people show, and there are many other figures like it, year after year). Regarding the original post, yes another example music is not really well paying nowadays, whether in education, or not, its a tough road. What field is easy? Doctor, dentist? In the end, do what you are passionate about.
Attached Images
 
__________________
Louis

Last edited by opentune; 07-18-2017 at 10:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-18-2017, 10:33 PM
KamaK KamaK is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: East Coast
Posts: 5,492
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by opentune View Post
Not sure if I read your post right, (excuse me if I did not) but you're basically dissing higher learning....college?

I think he's dissing the current incarnation of the institution that is academia. It has more to do with bankers making money than it does with higher learning. The common path that is sold is basically a paper mill, with various degrees of higher learning available off the beaten path.

TLDR: Higher learning is important, a diploma is not.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-18-2017, 10:52 PM
AzHeat's Avatar
AzHeat AzHeat is online now
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posts: 989
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
I think he's dissing the current incarnation of the institution that is academia. It has more to do with bankers making money than it does with higher learning. The common path that is sold is basically a paper mill, with various degrees of higher learning available off the beaten path.

TLDR: Higher learning is important, a diploma is not.
Thank you KamaK. That's exactly what I'm saying. I'm definitely not dissing the entire spectrum. How else are you going to be an attorney, surgeon or get into some other scientific field? For the rest, there are far better ways than mounting up huge amounts of debt going through the mill. Been there, done that...
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 07-18-2017, 11:15 PM
KamaK KamaK is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: East Coast
Posts: 5,492
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by AzHeat View Post
How else are you going to be an attorney
Pass the bar?

;-)
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 07-18-2017, 11:22 PM
AzHeat's Avatar
AzHeat AzHeat is online now
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posts: 989
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
Pass the bar?

;-)
Well, you got me there! Point being, the graduating school that shows up on your diploma actually does provide some value perception in some fields, others are an absolute requirement, for the rest it's can you do the job.

Tough crowd! LOL!
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 07-18-2017, 11:52 PM
opentune's Avatar
opentune opentune is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 5,719
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
I think he's dissing the current incarnation of the institution that is academia. It has more to do with bankers making money than it does with higher learning.
Only in a privatized system. I guess you're talking the John Doe private online college...or do you mean Harvard? ;)
__________________
Louis
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 07-19-2017, 12:08 AM
AzHeat's Avatar
AzHeat AzHeat is online now
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posts: 989
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by opentune View Post
Only in a privatized system. I guess you're talking the John Doe private online college...or do you mean Harvard? ;)
Harvard will gladly take your cash for a degree in IT, or communications or any number of other fields where nothing replaces experience. for those, you'll still be in the same spot as the guy who went to a lesser college, except far more broke. Doctors, attorneys, etc. Harvard will definitely get you further up the food chain, if for nothing else the status alone. I'd really like to believe Harvard would turn out better doctors, but way too much of that is dependent on the individual himself and far less on mommy and daddy remortgaging their house.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 07-19-2017, 02:51 AM
opentune's Avatar
opentune opentune is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 5,719
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by AzHeat View Post
I'd really like to believe Harvard would turn out better doctors.....
BUT they don't.....I'm with you there.
As long as you have made the exam/license to practice, I doubt what school you went to matters diddly once you have that scalpel in your hand in the OR.
__________________
Louis
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 07-19-2017, 03:08 AM
SmoothOperator SmoothOperator is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,048
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by AzHeat View Post
Harvard will gladly take your cash for a degree in IT, or communications or any number of other fields where nothing replaces experience. for those, you'll still be in the same spot as the guy who went to a lesser college, except far more broke. Doctors, attorneys, etc. Harvard will definitely get you further up the food chain, if for nothing else the status alone. I'd really like to believe Harvard would turn out better doctors, but way too much of that is dependent on the individual himself and far less on mommy and daddy remortgaging their house.
I think it is weird how brand recognition in education matters to some people. In my career I bump up against these people enough, not impressed. I think many of the best and brightest don't even apply, or grew up in the fringes not knowing what abeam is, because who cares, unless you own a yacht. Give me a state school graduate with discipline over a Ivy League student any day.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 07-19-2017, 10:44 PM
Jhostetler's Avatar
Jhostetler Jhostetler is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Topeka, Indiana
Posts: 359
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

My wife just obtained her degree in music education and will be starting the school year teaching 2-4th grade elementary students General music. It's funny, she didn't realize she had a heart for teaching kids so young until she was halfway through school. There are times when higher education can lead you to find a passion you didn't you had. I have always told anyone looking to go to school to start with electives and general liberal arts. Figure out your major and passion once you've experienced a variety of classes and work experience.
__________________
"Nobody is anybody until they make themselves somebody"-Louis L'Amour
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 07-19-2017, 10:55 PM
KamaK KamaK is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: East Coast
Posts: 5,492
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by opentune View Post
Only in a privatized system. I guess you're talking the John Doe private online college...or do you mean Harvard? ;)
The only difference between private and socialist is that......

With a private school, you pay for your diploma.

With a State school, I/We are forced to pay for ~half of your diploma.

Aside from that, there strikingly similar.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 07-19-2017, 11:09 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 3,802
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
With a State school, I/We are forced to pay for ~half of your diploma.
Good. That's the way it should be, only more so. I want an educated populace.

Unfortunately, it's not actually the case.
__________________
Visit Cruise Ship Drummer! - a drumming blog | 2017 CSD! Book of the Blog now available
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 07-19-2017, 11:15 PM
AzHeat's Avatar
AzHeat AzHeat is online now
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posts: 989
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
Good. That's the way it should be, only more so. I want an educated populace.

Unfortunately, it's not actually the case.
It already exists. It's called K-12 and completely useless. K-20 would be equally useless. Far more so than now.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 07-19-2017, 11:17 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 3,802
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Well, not completely useless. I learned a few things in it.
__________________
Visit Cruise Ship Drummer! - a drumming blog | 2017 CSD! Book of the Blog now available
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 07-20-2017, 03:38 AM
Seafroggys's Avatar
Seafroggys Seafroggys is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Edge of Nowhere
Posts: 865
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by AzHeat View Post
It already exists. It's called K-12 and completely useless. K-20 would be equally useless. Far more so than now.
Surely you learned something in primary school? All the math I know and use everyday was learned in school.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 07-20-2017, 04:30 AM
AzHeat's Avatar
AzHeat AzHeat is online now
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posts: 989
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seafroggys View Post
Surely you learned something in primary school? All the math I know and use everyday was learned in school.
Sort of. I didn't grow up here for the most part. When I got here I couldn't believe how easy high school was compared to elementary school and Jr. High I had come from. I did more math in 3rd grade than is expected here in 12th.

Higher education and good grades were an expectation. If you didn't keep up, you were left behind. No one simplified the education requirements, dumbing them down to the lowest common denominator like the US. So my comment still stands. Useless compared to what could be and more of the same is just more of the same.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 07-20-2017, 06:58 AM
opentune's Avatar
opentune opentune is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 5,719
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
The only difference between private and socialist is that......
With a private school, you pay for your diploma.
With a State school, I/We are forced to pay for ~half of your diploma.
Aside from that, there strikingly similar.
Hmmm, ok, then you're clearly not a fan of the European school model either.

I noticed nobody dared counter the wage gap plot I showed above. Nothing like data.
__________________
Louis
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 07-20-2017, 04:34 PM
AzHeat's Avatar
AzHeat AzHeat is online now
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posts: 989
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by opentune View Post
Hmmm, ok, then you're clearly not a fan of the European school model either.

I noticed nobody dared counter the wage gap plot I showed above. Nothing like data.
What does the data mean? Slackers tend not to go to college, while go-getters do? Who did the study? Was it a college or university? Who was included and excluded? Data means absolutely nothing in the real world. At least not anymore when almost every study has an agenda behind it.

Biggest problem with the "highly educated" is the lack of wisdom and common sense. They become enamored with studies and numbers and ignore what's in front of them. In many respects, they were way better off before their big degrees, when they could think for themselves. After their big degrees, they look outside and see a storm, but if the weather report says no rain, then they don't take an umbrella. They tend to become much less sensitive to real facts and figures, and keep clinging to slanted studies.

I've been on interview boards for at least the past 15 years and 9 out of 10 times our best and brightest have come from military backgrounds or worked themselves up through the ranks. Most of our "highly educated" interviewees end up disqualifying themselves due to their level of errogance. We also hesitate to hire them, because history has showed us they will jump from job to job, trying to get rank and fold up or quit under pressure. There's no study that shows that. That wouldn't meet anyone's agenda.

Scary part is, some employers have bought into this and require college degrees for entry level jobs. Can't hardly take a 30-40k salary when you're 130k in debt and you can't get the better job, because you have no experience.

These studies also only look at a dollar for dollar comparison, but if you spent 15 years paying off a 130k school debt compared to the same time paying down your mortgage or investing the money, you'll be way ahead of the game. Nothing says you can't get a job and get your education from your sallary, but every kid out of high school has been told they won't amount to anything, unless they go to school, which requires their first year to be lived in a dorm, spending ungodly amounts of cash for the privilege and on and on it goes.

Don't think anyone responded to your facts and figures, because most have grown tired of this thread. I hardly find the numbers factual, because experience tells me way different. None of these studies show how satisfied these graduates are or how far in debt, opportunity costs lost, etc.

Studies are rarely impressive. Want to show good unemployment numbers? Exclude those who have given up looking. Want to show an increase in jobs created? Exclude the number of jobs lost. Want to show a wage gap between men and women? Include stay at home moms and exclude time off for maternity, etc. studies can show what they want. Not impressed.

Sorry for the non drum related and off topic rant!
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 07-20-2017, 05:16 PM
PorkPieGuy's Avatar
PorkPieGuy PorkPieGuy is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 1,671
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Disclaimer: I teach at a local community college in NC with 10 years of full-time experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhostetler View Post
I have always told anyone looking to go to school to start with electives and general liberal arts. Figure out your major and passion once you've experienced a variety of classes and work experience.
I'm glad your wife discovered her passion! At my work with community colleges, what we advise transfer students to do is to figure out a degree early enough so that they can possibly use their electives as transfer credit towards a degree as opposed to taking "fun classes." This has been a HUGE shift in the past 20 years. When I started college in the early 1990s, there was still some of that "use college to 'find yourself'" attitude. Now, we are pushing students to have a fairly clear idea of what they want to do before taking electives. I wish it were the other way, but the cost of college is getting out of control, and now, taking "fun" and "exploratory" classes is seen as more of a waste.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AzHeat View Post
Sort of. I didn't grow up here for the most part. When I got here I couldn't believe how easy high school was compared to elementary school and Jr. High I had come from. I did more math in 3rd grade than is expected here in 12th.

Higher education and good grades were an expectation. If you didn't keep up, you were left behind. No one simplified the education requirements, dumbing them down to the lowest common denominator like the US. So my comment still stands. Useless compared to what could be and more of the same is just more of the same.
It's amazing how education can vary from one location to the next. I work one town over from where I live. In the town in which I live, there have been 2-3 national articles published about how bad the economy is. It's really, really sad. There are still some decent teachers left in our county, but it's a very poor county. We are best known for leading the state in meth. Before that, it was marijuana. Before that, it was moonshine. We don't exactly have the best education in the state.

However, where I work is a college town. Although I work at a community college, there is also a university here whose history is that of a teacher's college; in addition, since we are in the beautiful mountains of NC, MANY of the college students who graduate want to stay in the area. Due to this, the public school system up here gets to basically cherry pick only the BEST. It's highly competitive to get a teaching position.

The results? The high school in the college town is ranked 170 out of 554 high schools in the state. The high school I went to, which is only a 45 min. drive, ranks at 389 out of 554. Citizens in the college down raise their fists all of the time in favor of public school. However, I think the people there are disillusioned because they've not been "off the mountain" to look at other public schools in nearby areas. It's simply not the same. Education definitely varies from place to place.


Additional point/edit: When I was getting my Ed.S., I ran across an article which states, on average, that people who graduate from ivy-league colleges on average do NOT do any better financially than those who graduate with a degree from a public institution. I think ivy league is only necessary is someone wants to get into politics or other careers where the name of the college can get a better foot in the door (e.g. law firm, stock trading, etc.). Even then, it's more about networking with other ivy league students (think fraternities) as opposed to the classroom learning experience. Heck, I'd bet that the majority of first-year undergraduate classes are probably taught by grad students at those colleges. Who wants to pay for that?

Last edited by PorkPieGuy; 07-20-2017 at 05:26 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 07-20-2017, 06:16 PM
KamaK KamaK is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: East Coast
Posts: 5,492
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by AzHeat View Post
What does the data mean? Slackers tend not to go to college, while go-getters do? Who did the study? Was it a college or university?
Looks like the Pew Research Center study from 2013. You're correct to question the correlation/causation relationship.

I'd love to see the same graph with a "Debt" overlay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by opentune View Post
Hmmm, ok, then you're clearly not a fan of the European school model either.
You misunderstand my motives. I'm fine with what the EU is doing because I don't have to pay for it. When you pay $50k/year in taxes, your priorities begin to shift.

Last edited by KamaK; 07-20-2017 at 07:01 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 07-20-2017, 07:01 PM
lsits's Avatar
lsits lsits is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Riverside, CA
Posts: 1,071
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

I'm reminded of an episode of "Big Bang Theory". for those unfamiliar with the show, it's about four friends: Three have PHD's and the other has his master's degree. They were having car problems. They knew all about the theory of the internal combustion engine and the mechanical parts, but nobody knew how to fix the car.
__________________
I started with nothing and still have most of it left.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 07-20-2017, 07:38 PM
opentune's Avatar
opentune opentune is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 5,719
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Quote:
Originally Posted by PorkPieGuy View Post
Disclaimer: I teach at a local community college in NC with 10 years of full-time experience.

The results? The high school in the college town is ranked 170 out of 554 high schools in the state. The high school I went to, which is only a 45 min. drive, ranks at 389 out of 554. Citizens in the college down raise their fists all of the time in favor of public school. However, I think the people there are disillusioned because they've not been "off the mountain" to look at other public schools in nearby areas. It's simply not the same. Education definitely varies from place to place.

Additional point/edit: When I was getting my Ed.S., I ran across an article which states, on average, that people who graduate from ivy-league colleges on average do NOT do any better financially than those who graduate with a degree from a public institution. I think ivy league is only necessary is someone wants to get into politics or other careers where the name of the college can get a better foot in the door (e.g. law firm, stock trading, etc.). Even then, it's more about networking with other ivy league students (think fraternities) as opposed to the classroom learning experience. Heck, I'd bet that the majority of first-year undergraduate classes are probably taught by grad students at those colleges. Who wants to pay for that?
Thank you. I agree, education can be very regional, and let's not confuse an Ivy League lawyer/politician network with the results of college.

My comment(s) started in response to people hammering on 'college', or 'paying' for college, music or otherwise. There are clearly some country/cultural differences on this, and the paying and use of tax money. Not touching that. This is non drum-related and any facts/surveys/information won't be believed and are viewed with cynicism anyway.
Disclaimer: I teach at a university for 24 years. I'm of blue collar background am the first to point out trades and any other kind of employment are to be valued. College is not the panacea for national unemployment, and is not intended to be on-the-job-training. But its also not a scheme to dupe people out of their money. I concur with ToddBishop, more educated people around is not a bad thing, in music or any field.

Regarding the OP if somebody wants to go to music college they damn well should try it out for themselves. As we've seen, don't believe every opinion you read on the internet!
__________________
Louis

Last edited by opentune; 07-20-2017 at 08:07 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 07-20-2017, 08:59 PM
AzHeat's Avatar
AzHeat AzHeat is online now
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posts: 989
Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Sorry for my rant as well and I was in no way advocating against higher education, but rather proper perspective.

Not sure about the not a scheme to dupe you out of your cash though. The last time I set foot on a campus was when I was looking into an MBA. When I hesitated to dive in immediately, I ended up facing a panel telling me how I'll never amount to anything, unless I go forth with their offerings. Same BS I was dished out 30 years ago, but I bought it then. That scheme put me in a bad financial situation for a decade after. There are better ways to get there than debt and that's all I've been trying to say.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com