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  #1  
Old 07-15-2017, 12:40 PM
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Default Brand new dinged up New Beats

These come in yesterday, brand new 2017 model (checked the stamp). They got nasty dings on the edges and a couple funny looking lathing marks. I am shocked, none of my other Zildjians have any flaws at all. Should I send these back or see if they will change the price to B-stock. To be honest they sound great.
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Old 07-15-2017, 01:36 PM
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Default Re: Brand new dinged up New Beats

This could be quite the conundrum...


If they sound great, that should be the top priority and a very good reason for keeping them. Just think of all the cymbals that people buy and sell in search of "the right one"...

However, if you are concerned about the structual integrity, I can understand that as I've had a few second-hand cymbals with flaws and it's always unsettling...

I'm thinking that if they are brand new with flaws, Zildjian might have decided to let them pass quality control because they do sound great. In which case thay probably also thought that the existing flaws are not a significant danger to the cymbals. I would recommend keeping the purchase receipt and the photos. If something does go wrong, the hats should be under warranty.
Maybe contact Zildjian to express your concern, they might end up giving you some reassurance...

While the second photo appears to show a considerable dent on the edge, I'm not to sure. The photos are a bit out of focus. Some better quality pics would help.
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Old 07-15-2017, 01:47 PM
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Default Re: Brand new dinged up New Beats

Lathe line marks wouldn't bother me at all. Likely just some marks due to the cymbals rubbing against one another when they're stacked at the factory/being transported/stored etc etc. I have numerous cymbals with that sort of marking along lathe lines and it makes no material difference to the sound at all. It's certainly not detrimental to the cymbal itself.

The fleabites on the sound edge are likely something I'd try and get a price reduction for though. Whilst unlikely to get any worse than they are now, the fact is you paid for new and any flaws should have been reflected in that price.

If they sound great, I'd keep 'em. I'd just call them out for a discount due to the condition not being 100% flawless.
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Old 07-15-2017, 01:55 PM
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Old 07-15-2017, 03:50 PM
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Default Re: Brand new dinged up New Beats

Personally, if I saw them new for the price of used, I would have left them. Those flee bites will wear the other dish too, so you'll have two sets of flee bites for the price of one. If you ever decide our want something else down the road, you'll get half the price of used, because they look like they were dropped.

It's way easier to find a nice set of hats that sound good, than a ride, so I'd pass. Don't know, just my 2c
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Old 07-15-2017, 04:01 PM
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Default Re: Brand new dinged up New Beats

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Lathe line marks wouldn't bother me at all. Likely just some marks due to the cymbals rubbing against one another when they're stacked at the factory/being transported/stored etc etc. I have numerous cymbals with that sort of marking along lathe lines and it makes no material difference to the sound at all. It's certainly not detrimental to the cymbal itself.

The fleabites on the sound edge are likely something I'd try and get a price reduction for though. Whilst unlikely to get any worse than they are now, the fact is you paid for new and any flaws should have been reflected in that price.

If they sound great, I'd keep 'em. I'd just call them out for a discount due to the condition not being 100% flawless.
I agree, keep them for the great sound but try to get a discount as the resale value is compromised by the small flaws. Also, when/if you resell the hats the discount will serve as proof that the flaws were present when the hats were brand new and not something that was caused by your own neligence.
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Old 07-15-2017, 04:14 PM
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Default Re: Brand new dinged up New Beats

Being brand new, I'm taken aback by the damage on the edges.

My Paiste ride has a few lathe-markings, which I bought brand new, and when my original Paiste SE hat order arrived, one of the bells on one of the cymbals had a noticeable ding in it, but Sweetwater was outstanding in sending me out another set promptly, while allowing me to hang onto the old set in the meantime.

My suggestion to you, John, would be to contact whomever you ordered the cymbals from and arrange the shipping of replacements, while allowing you to hold onto the old, then when the new ones arrive, try both and select the pair you favour most.

In addition to, present your case to the dealer as to damages (ASAP), and in the event you want to keep your new purchase after the replacement arrives, I would work on securing an appropriate discount to reflect the cymbals state.

In response to the scenario based on Zildjian's decision to allow a cymbal or cymbals to clear quality control with such damages, I highly doubt they'd sign-off on an order such as this, regardless of whether their cymbals sound great or not, and if they did, stepping up to the plate and extending a special factory incentive on them would have been (at best) the reputable thing to do. When I buy brand new, I expect brand new. Lathe-markings are one thing, dinged edges are another.

I'm with AzHeat, they look as though they've been dropped (after the fact), whether at the factory, or at the dealer warehouse, nonetheless, doesn't matter, they're damaged, period.
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Old 07-15-2017, 04:51 PM
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Default Re: Brand new dinged up New Beats

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Being brand new, I'm taken aback by the damage on the edges.

My Paiste ride has a few lathe-markings, which I bought brand new, and when my original Paiste SE hat order arrived, one of the bells on one of the cymbals had a noticeable ding in it, but Sweetwater was outstanding in sending me out another set promptly, while allowing me to hang onto the old set in the meantime.

My suggestion to you, John, would be to contact whomever you ordered the cymbals from and arrange the shipping of replacements, while allowing you to hold onto the old, then when the new ones arrive, try both and select the pair you favour most.

In addition to, present your case to the dealer as to damages (ASAP), and in the event you want to keep your new purchase after the replacement arrives, I would work on securing an appropriate discount to reflect the cymbals state.

In response to the scenario based on Zildjian's decision to allow a cymbal or cymbals to clear quality control with such damages, I highly doubt they'd sign-off on an order such as this, regardless of whether their cymbals sound great or not, and if they did, stepping up to the plate and extending a special factory incentive on them would have been (at best) the reputable thing to do. When I buy brand new, I expect brand new. Lathe-markings are one thing, dinged edges are another.

I'm with AzHeat, they look as though they've been dropped (after the fact), whether at the factory, or at the dealer warehouse, nonetheless, doesn't matter, they're damaged, period.
Personally, I've learnt to be a little more tolerant of perceived imperfections in products, especially cymbals.

I think we're too accustomed to everything made to look perfect nowadays. "Oh dear, this apple has a blemish and is not perfectly round" Doesn't matter if it's an organically farmed, in-season, delicately handpicked apple at just the perfect ripeness, it has to be completely unblemished and just the perfect shape otherwise "I'm not going to eat it". What's the purpose of an apple? To look "perfect" or to taste great?

Cymbals are the same, once you get a really great sounding model, why discard it because of (superficial) visual imperfections?

That said, there's no reason not to at least enquire about the imperfections and try and get a discount. If customers blindly accept everything then manufacturers will become less rigorous in their quality control.

In regards to the Paiste product replacement: this is much easier as Paiste cymbals are known to be much more consistent in sound than other brands. If you get a replacement for the Zildjians then you might find that you like the sound a lot less, even with a supposed "identical" model.
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Old 07-15-2017, 04:52 PM
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Default Re: Brand new dinged up New Beats

Send them back. The flea bites are concerning. I've never had one spread, but I've seen it happen.
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Old 07-15-2017, 05:28 PM
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Default Re: Brand new dinged up New Beats

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Originally Posted by Mike Stand View Post
Personally, I've learnt to be a little more tolerant of perceived imperfections in products, especially cymbals.

I think we're too accustomed to everything made to look perfect nowadays. "Oh dear, this apple has a blemish and is not perfectly round" Doesn't matter if it's an organically farmed, in-season, delicately handpicked apple at just the perfect ripeness, it has to be completely unblemished and just the perfect shape otherwise "I'm not going to eat it". What's the purpose of an apple? To look "perfect" or to taste great?

Cymbals are the same, once you get a really great sounding model, why discard it because of (superficial) visual imperfections?
While I respect your take on the matter, we are all genetically programmed differently when it comes to accepting things for what they are, and as with the case of the cymbals in question, part of the charm of investing in something new, is actually getting something new.

This case is about principal with me, nothing more. New is new, and new should be new, not creased, dented, dinged, scratched, or marred. That's why there's a flourishing used market industry out there, for items and things just like this.
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Old 07-15-2017, 05:29 PM
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Default Re: Brand new dinged up New Beats

Hi Destroyer, if they sound good and it's the sound you are looking for, I would try to get the B-stock pricing. Show the store these picks and contact them ASP and see what happens. Then you will have to decide depending on the store's answer.
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Old 07-15-2017, 08:25 PM
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Default Re: Brand new dinged up New Beats

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Originally Posted by Stroker View Post
...

This case is about principal with me, nothing more. New is new, and new should be new, not creased, dented, dinged, scratched, or marred. That's why there's a flourishing used market industry out there, for items and things just like this.
Just to avoid any misunderstanding, I'd like to go into detail about what I understand when I hear "new". I take this to mean that an article has not yet been used by another customer/consumer. That is, I am the first person to seriously/fully use the article in question in it's intended way. I also understand "new" to mean that an article is in it's best possible condition, relative to it's manufacturing process. I don't however understand "new" to mean "perfect" in every aspect. This is just not possible with every single consumer product of every kind. I think we have become perhaps conditioned to expect every single article we buy to correspond to some ideal template. So much so that any flaw, no matter how minor, will cause us to refuse the article in question even if it actually fulfills it's very fundamental purpose.

I think the question I'm raising is this: Does the modern cymbal manufacturing process still allow for certain tolerable "imperfections" every now and again or is it just sloppy quality control on behalf of the manufacturer who could do better? To be honest, I don't know the answer and I suspect that only some industry insiders really know.

However, I do note that Paiste seems to have much better consistency in my experience. They are also more expensive, even here in Europe. A natural conclusion would be to assume that Paiste are more demanding and more likely to melt down a new cymbal if it doesn't conform to their high standards while Zildjian might be more lenient regarding certain imperfections if they are satisfied with the fundamental quality of their product. I would have a degree of understanding for the latter approach. After all, wouldn't it be a shame to reject a cymbal that seems a cut above the rest in terms of sound, just because of some imperfections?

I'll reiterate my previous question in the hope that someone with industry insight will answer:

Does Zildjian allow for some imperfections during quality control if the cymbal has otherwise highly desirable (sound) qualities? Or is the present case more likely down to bad QC?
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Old 07-15-2017, 09:27 PM
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Default Re: Brand new dinged up New Beats

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Originally Posted by Destroyer772 View Post
These come in yesterday, brand new 2017 model (checked the stamp). They got nasty dings on the edges and a couple funny looking lathing marks. I am shocked, none of my other Zildjians have any flaws at all. Should I send these back or see if they will change the price to B-stock. To be honest they sound great.

They 'came in yesterday'. So they were shipped to you, and you didn't see them in person first before paying.
If that's the case, if you want to keep them, I'd try for a reduced price.

On the other hand, every pair of the re-designed New Beats I've tried (several, if not many), have sounded just great.
I'd be happy with any of them I've tried.
So, I'd be pretty confident that if you exchange them, you'll get another great sounding pair.

If you paid close to full price new for them, I'd probably try to exchange them for another pair.
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Old 07-15-2017, 10:08 PM
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Default Re: Brand new dinged up New Beats

Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Stand
Does the modern cymbal manufacturing process still allow for certain tolerable "imperfections" every now and again
I'd say they do.

Here are a couple of snaps of my Paiste 2002, 22" Power Ride. Notice the minor imperfections, which by the way was insignificant to me at time of purchase. My Paiste 2002 SE Hats have no imperfections.





Now, had the ride displayed a ding on the edge in the manner of John's, cymbal set, I would have passed on the purchase. No thanks. As for the next drummer who accepts such imperfection, all the power to them. To each their own.
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Old 07-15-2017, 10:26 PM
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Default Re: Brand new dinged up New Beats

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I'd say they do.

Here are a couple of snaps of my Paiste 2002, 22" Power Ride. Notice the minor imperfections, which by the way was insignificant to me at time of purchase. My Paiste 2002 SE Hats have no imperfections.





Now, had the ride displayed a ding on the edge in the manner of John's, cymbal set, I would have passed on the purchase. No thanks. As for the next drummer who accepts such imperfection, all the power to them. To each their own.
Those darker lathe marks are hardly an imperfection in my view. And your SEs don't have any at all?!! Wow, Paiste are even more consistent than I remember. I had my 2002s many years ago. They do set a high standard and are also relatively affordable for high-end Paiste cymbals. If I could choose to like a certain cymbal line, it would be these... but that's not how it works of course. I'm still of the opinion that a new cymbal doesn't have to be "perfect" in every way (and perfection is debateable) but I better understand your reaction to the Avedis hats mentioned here since you're accustomed to the 2002s. I have fond memories of those.... but my ears changed their mind... I mean, my mind...
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Old 07-15-2017, 10:49 PM
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Default Re: Brand new dinged up New Beats

Just got home from work and glad to see your all's thoughts. They were bought thru zZound's online and I assumed they would be as nice as any other I have bought. Coming from a manufacturing background I have had to scrap parts that looked like these Hats which we would have called cosmetic defects. But the more I have thought about it, I believe these will get returned. My wife got them on a play as you pay plan for my birthday and she is not happy. I was kinda wondering if this was something that you all had run across before. Sometimes foundry's were blanks are bought, some may have imperfections that cannot be machined out. These look to me like they were knocked up against other parts at the factory and made it past Q- A dept. Thanks for the reply's.
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Old 07-15-2017, 11:05 PM
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Default Re: Brand new dinged up New Beats

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Those darker lathe marks are hardly an imperfection in my view. And your SEs don't have any at all?!! Wow, Paiste are even more consistent than I remember. I had my 2002s many years ago. They do set a high standard and are also relatively affordable for high-end Paiste cymbals. If I could choose to like a certain cymbal line, it would be these... but that's not how it works of course. I'm still of the opinion that a new cymbal doesn't have to be "perfect" in every way (and perfection is debateable) but I better understand your reaction to the Avedis hats mentioned here since you're accustomed to the 2002s. I have fond memories of those.... but my ears changed their mind... I mean, my mind...
Here is a snap of the hats. No lathe marks top or bottom.



Paiste really is peerless when it comes to their craftsmanship.
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Old 07-15-2017, 11:11 PM
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Default Re: Brand new dinged up New Beats

Well, upon a closer look in brighter light. They remind me of when I would chuck a Part into a machine and sometimes the jaws would have a shaving or something on them. Once the jaws closed down on the part to hold it for turning, it would leave small marks on the OD of the finished part. So I am torn again. If this is the case, it really should not hurt. Dont cymbals get clamped on a lathe when turned.
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Old 07-15-2017, 11:12 PM
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Default Re: Brand new dinged up New Beats

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Just got home from work and glad to see your all's thoughts. They were bought thru zZound's online and I assumed they would be as nice as any other I have bought. Coming from a manufacturing background I have had to scrap parts that looked like these Hats which we would have called cosmetic defects. But the more I have thought about it, I believe these will get returned. My wife got them on a play as you pay plan for my birthday and she is not happy. I was kinda wondering if this was something that you all had run across before. Sometimes foundry's were blanks are bought, some may have imperfections that cannot be machined out. These look to me like they were knocked up against other parts at the factory and made it past Q- A dept. Thanks for the reply's.
It's always disappointing when a purchase fails to please, but knowing how anal I am when it comes to things, a ding on the edge of any cymbal to the degree of the ding that's prevalent on yours, would grate on me. I think you're doing the right thing by returning them, John.
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Old 07-15-2017, 11:17 PM
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Default Re: Brand new dinged up New Beats

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Well, upon a closer look in brighter light. They remind me of when I would chuck a Part into a machine and sometimes the jaws would have a shaving or something on them. Once the jaws closed down on the part to hold it for turning, it would leave small marks on the OD of the finished part. So I am torn again. If this is the case, it really should not hurt. Dont cymbals get clamped on a lathe when turned.
If the cymbals were mine, my concern wouldn't lie so much in the way of whether or not the imperfection (or damage) would affect the playability of them, but more so, the esthetic value of. But that's me.
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Old 07-15-2017, 11:30 PM
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Default Re: Brand new dinged up New Beats

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Dont cymbals get clamped on a lathe when turned.
Sort of. The hole is punched through the bell first, then spun on a lathe while held by the hole in the bell. Nothing touches the edge, except the tool that cuts them down to size and rounds the edges.
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Old 07-16-2017, 01:19 AM
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Default Re: Brand new dinged up New Beats

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Sort of. The hole is punched through the bell first, then spun on a lathe while held by the hole in the bell. Nothing touches the edge, except the tool that cuts them down to size and rounds the edges.
Well that blew my theory out, I use to machine parts while chucking thru the bore, so it makes sense. It had to have got dinged on something fairly hard.
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Old 07-20-2017, 12:13 PM
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Default Re: Brand new dinged up New Beats

As much money as new cymbals cost, I would return it as damaged goods. As long as we accept this crap, that is what we will get and a few hundred bucks will mean nothing.
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Old 07-20-2017, 12:40 PM
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As much money as new cymbals cost, I would return it as damaged goods. As long as we accept this crap, that is what we will get and a few hundred bucks will mean nothing.
I talked with a Rep from Zildjian and he agrees it's unacceptable. It looks to have been a shipping issue, the box was busted in the corner. But I have received questionable packaging before and the product was fine, I just really didn't know what to think. Now I am waiting on zZounds to get in touch with me for a shipping label, they are blaming it on Zildjian. Zildjian blaming it on Fedex, I am the Customer they should get me Squared away with some new Hats and settle that on there time not mine. There going back one way or another, these flea bites ruin the Resale value of the hat's if nothing else.
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Old 07-20-2017, 12:46 PM
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Default Re: Brand new dinged up New Beats

Some materials and manufacturing techniques don't lend themselves too geometric perfection. I think the pits and defects are probably what give Zildjian the sound, inconsistencies increase vibration potential. The metal isn't 100% uniform, some even pay extra for dinged up cymbals. I'm pretty sure Zildjian could stamp out perfectly uniform plastic looking cymbals. In case there are cymbal execs reading, that isn't what people want.
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Old 07-20-2017, 01:31 PM
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Default Re: Brand new dinged up New Beats

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I'd say they do.

Here are a couple of snaps of my Paiste 2002, 22" Power Ride. Notice the minor imperfections, which by the way was insignificant to me at time of purchase. My Paiste 2002 SE Hats have no imperfections.





Now, had the ride displayed a ding on the edge in the manner of John's, cymbal set, I would have passed on the purchase. No thanks. As for the next drummer who accepts such imperfection, all the power to them. To each their own.
That dark spot in the top picture looks like a spot where the hammering was a little too deep to be covered completely evenly by the lathing. If you watch clips of a Paiste factory tour, after a cymbal gets machine hammered, it's last stop before going to get lathed is to a guy who checks every cymbal for flatness around the outside edge. He puts a cymbal on a flat metal table and taps the cymbal on the bow. If the cymbal rattles a bit against the table, then he looks for the high spot that is not sitting perfectly against the table and give it a crack or two with a ball peen in one or two spots to flatten out the outside edge. I'd say that dark area is one of those spots. Nothing to worry about, completely normal and part of Paiste's manufacturing process.
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Old 07-20-2017, 01:58 PM
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Default Re: Brand new dinged up New Beats

I have dealt with zZounds before and I don't see a problem with them taking them back
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Old 07-20-2017, 02:11 PM
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Default Re: Brand new dinged up New Beats

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I talked with a Rep from Zildjian and he agrees it's unacceptable. It looks to have been a shipping issue, the box was busted in the corner. But I have received questionable packaging before and the product was fine, I just really didn't know what to think. Now I am waiting on zZounds to get in touch with me for a shipping label, they are blaming it on Zildjian. Zildjian blaming it on Fedex, I am the Customer they should get me Squared away with some new Hats and settle that on there time not mine. There going back one way or another, these flea bites ruin the Resale value of the hat's if nothing else.
Good for you! Playing the blame game is never good customer service. I wish you well in your cymbal endeavor.
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Old 07-20-2017, 02:19 PM
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Purple Cobwebs Purple Cobwebs is offline
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Default Re: Brand new dinged up New Beats

The edge damage would certainly bug me. Cymbals aren't cheap. I think you are doing the right thing having them replaced.
I also wondered if playing them would cause extra wear on your sticks?
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  #29  
Old 07-20-2017, 02:48 PM
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PorkPieGuy PorkPieGuy is offline
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Default Re: Brand new dinged up New Beats

I know nothing is perfect, but if you are paying full price for new cymbals, I'd send those back.

I have a 20-year-old set of Sabian AA hi-hats with edges in better condition than those.
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Old 07-20-2017, 04:15 PM
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Default Re: Brand new dinged up New Beats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostnote View Post
That dark spot in the top picture looks like a spot where the hammering was a little too deep to be covered completely evenly by the lathing. If you watch clips of a Paiste factory tour, after a cymbal gets machine hammered, it's last stop before going to get lathed is to a guy who checks every cymbal for flatness around the outside edge. He puts a cymbal on a flat metal table and taps the cymbal on the bow. If the cymbal rattles a bit against the table, then he looks for the high spot that is not sitting perfectly against the table and give it a crack or two with a ball peen in one or two spots to flatten out the outside edge. I'd say that dark area is one of those spots. Nothing to worry about, completely normal and part of Paiste's manufacturing process.
Many thanks to you for weighing-in on this, GN. Makes perfect sense to me, as the dark spots are in fact impregnated deeper into the surface of the cymbal than the lathe turning. The pics highlight the areas many times more than they look with the naked eye.
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Old 07-21-2017, 01:30 AM
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Default Re: Brand new dinged up New Beats

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Originally Posted by Stroker View Post
Many thanks to you for weighing-in on this, GN. Makes perfect sense to me, as the dark spots are in fact impregnated deeper into the surface of the cymbal than the lathe turning. The pics highlight the areas many times more than they look with the naked eye.
Yeah, some of my Twenties have hammer marks so deep that they aren't lathed at all. Doesn't bother me a bit. They sound great and aren't going to break because of those spots, so that's l I care about.
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Old 07-21-2017, 06:01 PM
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Default Re: Brand new dinged up New Beats

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Originally Posted by Ghostnote View Post
Yeah, some of my Twenties have hammer marks so deep that they aren't lathed at all. Doesn't bother me a bit. They sound great and aren't going to break because of those spots, so that's l I care about.
My sentiment exactly.
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