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  #1  
Old 06-14-2017, 04:55 PM
samxday samxday is offline
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Default Recording project needs you

New to this forum. Having been in regular bands for 10 years, the bass player and I (guitar/singing) decided to make some new interesting music and try to focus more on recording and less on the gigging side of things. We're looking to collaborate with drummers on new original music and thought it would be a good idea to not be limited by geography. If you can record and have the internet then you're half way there :-)
We're hoping to find a drummer/drummers who wants to get involved who can record themselves, playing and recording to a good standard. The idea is we come up with some decent songs, and rather than stick a drum machine on there, we work with a real drummer who is interested in recording and likes the music. The goal is to record some decent music, be creative and have a bit of fun. We've half a dozen songs on the go at the moment, one of which we worked up into a near final version. Guide drums are courtesy of Garageband. Listen here.
https://soundcloud.com/user-24906459...about-you-demo
Message me if you want to know more or if you want a drumless version of this track to have a go with.
Cheers
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  #2  
Old 06-14-2017, 05:15 PM
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Default Re: Recording project needs you

What would the end product be used for? Commercial release? Demos for your band? I don't mean to be cynical, but this sounds like a request for free drum tracks. Many of us on here play for a living, which includes session and recording work. Many of us who also work in bands get sick and tired of being asked to work for free. Have I missed something?
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  #3  
Old 06-14-2017, 05:26 PM
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Default Re: Recording project needs you

I have no such issues because i don't get paid for drumming. PM'd if yer interested
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  #4  
Old 06-14-2017, 05:27 PM
samxday samxday is offline
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Default Re: Recording project needs you

Hey. Fair question. It's not a paid gig. It's an artistic and musical collaboration project. If you want to be part of that then you'll get a writing credit. You will effectively be part of the band. There's no ulterior motive here.
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  #5  
Old 06-14-2017, 09:44 PM
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BacteriumFendYoke BacteriumFendYoke is offline
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Default Re: Recording project needs you

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Originally Posted by samxday View Post
Hey. Fair question. It's not a paid gig. It's an artistic and musical collaboration project. If you want to be part of that then you'll get a writing credit. You will effectively be part of the band. There's no ulterior motive here.
I'm out then. Nope. I'm not a professional player but I am a professional techie...
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  #6  
Old 06-14-2017, 11:16 PM
samxday samxday is offline
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Default Re: Recording project needs you

Johnoworld PMd. We're not going steady yet so if anyone else fancies a go please PM with questions or if you just want the track to have a go at recording.
Cheers, drummers
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  #7  
Old 06-14-2017, 11:47 PM
Matt Bo Eder
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Default Re: Recording project needs you

Whew! I thought we'd be getting paid in Exposure Bucks ;)
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  #8  
Old 06-14-2017, 11:53 PM
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Whew! I thought we'd be getting paid in Exposure Bucks ;)
Loads of exposure. So much exposure. Not sure if the supermarket takes exposure Dollars, though.
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  #9  
Old 06-15-2017, 02:15 AM
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Default Re: Recording project needs you

Obligatory http://theoatmeal.com/comics/exposure
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  #10  
Old 06-15-2017, 04:57 AM
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Default Re: Recording project needs you

sounds interesting. I might PM you
to the people complaining about not getting paid - drumming is supposed to be fun - have some fun with it!
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  #11  
Old 06-15-2017, 05:43 AM
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Default Re: Recording project needs you

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Originally Posted by w3r1_drums View Post
to the people complaining about not getting paid - drumming is supposed to be fun - have some fun with it!
I always have fun when I play!

I also always happen to get paid when I play. :)

But I get the participation thing just for fun, and it doesn't hurt to ask, or to be asked. As long as no one's being exploited, there's no harm in it. If I was set up to record drums at home, I would probably volunteer. It's a fun song, I hear an Echo & The Bunnymen meets The Cult influence!

Bermuda
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  #12  
Old 06-15-2017, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by w3r1_drums View Post
sounds interesting. I might PM you
to the people complaining about not getting paid - drumming is supposed to be fun - have some fun with it!
I have plenty of fun with it! I love practicing and I love recording my own material!
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  #13  
Old 06-15-2017, 06:45 AM
KamaK KamaK is offline
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Default Re: Recording project needs you

I think the "pay to play" argument shouldn't even come in here. To me, the argument would be:

There are numerous websites and forums dedicated to musical collaboration that all sorts of musicians subscribe to (including some of us). This is a drummer forum where drummers go to talk about drum-shit with other drummers. Most do not come here seeking solicitation and are often put-off by such posts.

But what the hell do I know. I'm just an old opinionated fart.
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  #14  
Old 06-15-2017, 09:38 AM
samxday samxday is offline
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Default Re: Recording project needs you

Cheers. Hope to hear from you.
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Originally Posted by w3r1_drums View Post
sounds interesting. I might PM you
to the people complaining about not getting paid - drumming is supposed to be fun - have some fun with it!
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  #15  
Old 06-15-2017, 09:39 AM
samxday samxday is offline
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Default Re: Recording project needs you

Echo and the Bunnymen meets the Cult...cool!
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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
I always have fun when I play!

I also always happen to get paid when I play. :)

But I get the participation thing just for fun, and it doesn't hurt to ask, or to be asked. As long as no one's being exploited, there's no harm in it. If I was set up to record drums at home, I would probably volunteer. It's a fun song, I hear an Echo & The Bunnymen meets The Cult influence!

Bermuda
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  #16  
Old 06-15-2017, 11:22 AM
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Default Re: Recording project needs you

Quote:
Originally Posted by w3r1_drums View Post
sounds interesting. I might PM you
to the people complaining about not getting paid - drumming is supposed to be fun - have some fun with it!
Try paying your mortgage/rent/shopping/bills with fun. Let me know how you get on with that.

Time=Money for a lot of people here.

I have a loads of fun playing, get paid to do so and usually get looked after by whoever has booked us, I'll happily joke that it's soul destroying at times but we don't take ourselves seriously at all. In contrast I've never understood the snobbery I've experienced from folk playing original material when the vast majority pay to play and you get treated like dirt by venues, have to put up with other bands bullshit and struggle on an ever decreasing scene.

To the OP, there's no harm in asking at all and I wish more people did ask for a real drummer, it's a great way of networking and building up a portfolio for everyone involved. If I had a home setup I'd be tempted as I'd love a recording project that I didn't have to stress about gigging later on.

Just remember a real drummer will do things differently a drum machine :)
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  #17  
Old 06-15-2017, 11:28 AM
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Default Re: Recording project needs you

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Originally Posted by w3r1_drums View Post
to the people complaining about not getting paid - drumming is supposed to be fun - have some fun with it!
This is not only a stupid argument, but damaging to the community and the industry. If I didn't love the drums, would I put my through the rigmarole of doing it professionally? It's only because I love it that I can stand to work in this messed up industry, epitomized by this thread and your response.

To get to the level where I can play virtually anything on command, in a studio, while on the clock, has taken me years of work and thousands of hours of practice, which continues to this day. The OP is asking for me to do this for a 'writing credit'. You are telling me to 'have some fun with it'. Meanwhile, my bank are asking for my mortgage payments, and the one thing I do to make money is being treated as a hobby.
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  #18  
Old 06-15-2017, 11:52 AM
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Pocket-full-of-gold Pocket-full-of-gold is offline
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Default Re: Recording project needs you

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Originally Posted by mikyok View Post
Time=Money for a lot of people here.
I couldn't agree more.

But by the same measure, as seen by at least a few here who've responded positively, there are also a lot of people who have no problems with the arrangement of collaboration for no pay.

Personally, I agree with you in that I have no issue seeing requests like this on the forum either. I know if I was looking for a drummer for a project, paid or otherwise, one of the places I'd start making enquiries is a drum forum such as this one.

All he did was solicit expressions of interest. Anyone not inclined to accept the terms, is free walk on by. From where I'm sitting, this is unlikely to be the type of arrangement that's seriously going to jeopardise the financial prospects of a working pro drummer anyway. It's really nothing more than an international jam session at this stage. If it somehow sets the world alight, then renegotiate terms in your favour.
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  #19  
Old 06-15-2017, 01:45 PM
samxday samxday is offline
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Default Re: Recording project needs you

All true. If you are a pro looking to get paid then this is not for you. If you are looking to collaborate and you like drumming and you like recording and you (optional) like the example song, then get in touch. You will not be taking money from the pocket of another drummer, because this is not a paying session.

Many thanks for the positive interest from those of you who have replied so far. PM me if you want a drumless version of that demo track to have a go at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocket-full-of-gold View Post
I couldn't agree more.

But by the same measure, as seen by at least a few here who've responded positively, there are also a lot of people who have no problems with the arrangement of collaboration for no pay.

Personally, I agree with you in that I have no issue seeing requests like this on the forum either. I know if I was looking for a drummer for a project, paid or otherwise, one of the places I'd start making enquiries is a drum forum such as this one.

All he did was solicit expressions of interest. Anyone not inclined to accept the terms, is free walk on by. From where I'm sitting, this is unlikely to be the type of arrangement that's seriously going to jeopardise the financial prospects of a working pro drummer anyway. It's really nothing more than an international jam session at this stage. If it somehow sets the world alight, then renegotiate terms in your favour.
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  #20  
Old 06-15-2017, 02:29 PM
Groov-E Groov-E is offline
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Default Re: Recording project needs you

You can see this under a different light.

When we approached one of our project managers 2 years ago to buy back our company and include him in exchange for a participation in the profits but a salary freeze, he went with that "the bank doesn't take stocks as payment" approach.

Banks do actually take stocks as payment or collateral, but when you are placed before a person with a no-risk philosophy you do not try to convince that person otherwise and quickly start looking elsewhere.

We said fine, thank you and kept him on the payroll as he is a good employee and a good person.

We kept on keeping on, and now two years later he regrets not jumping on that train.

So all I am saying is to keep an open mind. I guess you can make money as a pro drummer given good circumstances, but to the guys waiting for their chance this opportunity is also an okay road to take.

Work at it after your work hours, throw out your tv, flush the weekday drinks down the crapper, make adjustments to become a bit more productive, say even as little as an hour more a day.

Things are changing fast, and we all need to reinvent ourselves to stay relevant.
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  #21  
Old 06-15-2017, 05:50 PM
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BacteriumFendYoke BacteriumFendYoke is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samxday View Post
All true. If you are a pro looking to get paid then this is not for you. If you are looking to collaborate and you like drumming and you like recording and you (optional) like the example song, then get in touch. You will not be taking money from the pocket of another drummer, because this is not a paying session.

Many thanks for the positive interest from those of you who have replied so far. PM me if you want a drumless version of that demo track to have a go at.
What you're doing though is giving the impression that drummers shouldn't get paid to spend time learning parts, playing, learning to record those parts and all of the equipment that goes along with that. I might perform for nothing on a personal project - Hell, I release my music for free - but I would never ask anybody else to do that if I expected something to be of a releasable standard.

What you're saying is that it's good 'exposure' and that they'll get a 'songwriting credit'. Frankly, if it's good enough to be exposed to others and the song writing credit is worth a damn, you should &^%$ing well be paying them to perform on the track. You're dragging down everybody's pay.

The other one that gets me is being asked to play/tech for nothing for a charity event. My litmus test is whether security and catering staff are being paid. In which case, they can damn well pay me as well. At my hourly rate. On my terms.
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Old 06-15-2017, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke View Post
The other one that gets me is being asked to play/tech for nothing for a charity event. My litmus test is whether security and catering staff are being paid. In which case, they can damn well pay me as well. At my hourly rate. On my terms.
Very often, companies will donate their time and services, for which they can take a tax deduction. Granted, a deduction doesn't really qualify as revenue, so it's an altruistic balancing act.

Agreed about "my terms", I always make the decision about how much/little I will work for, and if there's any benefit for me donating my time (which I can't write-off as far as I know.) It's very rare that I play for free, only one regular show a year that I can think of - the Elvis Presley Birthday Bash - which features a ton of great L.A. artists doing Elvis songs. The 'party' of it all truly exceeds whatever pay I'd get anyway. But, it is on my terms that I donate my services, nobody insists on it, or resents if I were to refuse.

But back to the track, I don't think it's improper to have asked the question. There are many great players here who can either afford to do a fun project, or who aren't pursuing paid gigs anyway. As I said, I'd love to record the track, but I'm not set-up for home recording.

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  #23  
Old 06-15-2017, 06:36 PM
samxday samxday is offline
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I'll take that as a no from you then. 👍
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Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke View Post
What you're doing though is giving the impression that drummers shouldn't get paid to spend time learning parts, playing, learning to record those parts and all of the equipment that goes along with that. I might perform for nothing on a personal project - Hell, I release my music for free - but I would never ask anybody else to do that if I expected something to be of a releasable standard.

What you're saying is that it's good 'exposure' and that they'll get a 'songwriting credit'. Frankly, if it's good enough to be exposed to others and the song writing credit is worth a damn, you should &^%$ing well be paying them to perform on the track. You're dragging down everybody's pay.

The other one that gets me is being asked to play/tech for nothing for a charity event. My litmus test is whether security and catering staff are being paid. In which case, they can damn well pay me as well. At my hourly rate. On my terms.
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Old 06-15-2017, 08:59 PM
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Default Re: Recording project needs you

A wise man once told me, "Do things you don't get paid to do and one day you'll get paid for things you didn't do." Humility, kindness, and generosity go a long way toward success in life. I used to have a blast playing drums in a jazz quartet with my cousins. We played a number of weddings for friends and family members. The fun, the playing, and the pay all stopped at the point where my cousins began Georgia State University's School of Music. They drove the price through the roof because, "We're serious musicians and people need to pay us what we're worth." The point at which I really lost respect was when the guitar player sat in his parents' living room (where they fed and sheltered him) and refused to go and get the guitar (that they bought for him as a gift) to play Christmas Carols because, "I don't play unless I get paid anymore."

Respect is earned, not demanded. I mean, really guys, how many of us enjoy and benefit from Mr. Bermuda's participation on this forum. He doesn't get paid for that. Some here would do well to study both his success and his attitude...there's probably a correlation.

Samxday, if I had mics and an interface, I'd be happy to participate. Unfortunately, I don't think iPhone audio is going to get you what you want. Best wishes on your journey.
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Old 06-15-2017, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Mighty_Joker View Post
This is not only a stupid argument, but damaging to the community and the industry. If I didn't love the drums, would I put my through the rigmarole of doing it professionally? It's only because I love it that I can stand to work in this messed up industry, epitomized by this thread and your response.

To get to the level where I can play virtually anything on command, in a studio, while on the clock, has taken me years of work and thousands of hours of practice, which continues to this day. The OP is asking for me to do this for a 'writing credit'. You are telling me to 'have some fun with it'. Meanwhile, my bank are asking for my mortgage payments, and the one thing I do to make money is being treated as a hobby.
"damaging to the community and the industry" really? No one's forcing you to work on this project. The OP asked for people who would be interested in collaborating, people came with the attitude of "if I can't get paid I won't do it". Obviously people have bills to pay and all that crap. And also some people here play drums for a living. But if you remotely enjoy drums, why does everything have to be paid? Do you get paid to just practice your craft? Yes, recording takes a little extra time than just practicing to set up equipment and do all that stuff but if it's something you would enjoy doing, and you have the time, then why not? If you don't, then no one is forcing you to do anything and you don't have to come in with a crappy attitude. Something like "seems cool but I don't have the time" or something like what bermuda said is so much less toxic than some of the backlash I'm seeing here
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  #26  
Old 06-15-2017, 11:00 PM
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"damaging to the community and the industry" really? No one's forcing you to work on this project. The OP asked for people who would be interested in collaborating, people came with the attitude of "if I can't get paid I won't do it". Obviously people have bills to pay and all that crap. And also some people here play drums for a living. But if you remotely enjoy drums, why does everything have to be paid? Do you get paid to just practice your craft? Yes, recording takes a little extra time than just practicing to set up equipment and do all that stuff but if it's something you would enjoy doing, and you have the time, then why not? If you don't, then no one is forcing you to do anything and you don't have to come in with a crappy attitude. Something like "seems cool but I don't have the time" or something like what bermuda said is so much less toxic than some of the backlash I'm seeing here
It's damaging to the industry because recording the drums for other people's projects is a core aspect of the professional role. Just like installing boilers is a core aspect of a plumber/boiler engineer/electrician's role. The industry has an extremely hard time fighting off the "no-pay" attitude your common man has towards musicians. Their argument is always "why should I pay when someone else will do it for free?", and as long as there are people willing to do it for free, that argument will continue to exist, and put professionals out of work.

I also never came here saying this was forced down my throat, or that others shouldn't do it. I asked what the end goal of the project was, and said that I was suspicious it was a plug for free recording work. I even said that this might just be me being cynical. I never tried to stop anyone else from getting involved.

Also, having bills to pay is not "all that crap", it is part of staying alive.

As for your question of why does everything have to be paid, the simple answer is, it's my job. That's how jobs work. If you have a problem with drums being a job, then your comments should be directed at every working drummer, not just me.
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Old 06-15-2017, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Mighty_Joker View Post
It's damaging to the industry because recording the drums for other people's projects is a core aspect of the professional role. Just like installing boilers is a core aspect of a plumber/boiler engineer/electrician's role. The industry has an extremely hard time fighting off the "no-pay" attitude your common man has towards musicians. Their argument is always "why should I pay when someone else will do it for free?", and as long as there are people willing to do it for free, that argument will continue to exist, and put professionals out of work.

I also never came here saying this was forced down my throat, or that others shouldn't do it. I asked what the end goal of the project was, and said that I was suspicious it was a plug for free recording work. I even said that this might just be me being cynical. I never tried to stop anyone else from getting involved.

Also, having bills to pay is not "all that crap", it is part of staying alive.

As for your question of why does everything have to be paid, the simple answer is, it's my job. That's how jobs work. If you have a problem with drums being a job, then your comments should be directed at every working drummer, not just me.
The whole world has bills to pay and mouths to feed. If your chosen profession isn't doing it, that's your problem, not the industry's and especially not a dude on the internet looking to make a collaborative recording.
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Old 06-15-2017, 11:46 PM
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The whole world has bills to pay and mouths to feed. If your chosen profession isn't doing it, that's your problem, not the industry's and especially not a dude on the internet looking to make a collaborative recording.
This is getting ridiculous. I'm bowing out before this becomes a mud-slinging match. I meant no offence to anybody, I was just trying to raise the question of people working for free in an already difficult industry.

Good luck with your project OP.
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  #29  
Old 06-16-2017, 12:44 AM
Groov-E Groov-E is offline
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Originally Posted by Mighty_Joker View Post
This is getting ridiculous. I'm bowing out before this becomes a mud-slinging match. I meant no offence to anybody, I was just trying to raise the question of people working for free in an already difficult industry.

Good luck with your project OP.
I think we can agree that MJ took the high road here, hence raising the quality of the exchange. Kudos.
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Old 06-16-2017, 02:16 AM
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Default Re: Recording project needs you

As drummers we do a fun thing.

Other things that humans do in the pursuit of satisfaction include cooking, home maintenance/improvement, fixing mechanical objects, painting pictures and having sex.

Some humans do these same things as ways to make money.

If you do one or more of these things as a way to make money, in order to continue making money, you need to be demonstrably better at them than people who do them for free.

As a drummer, my output is only slightly better than this famous piece of art restoration:


That's why I am prepared to play for close to free. Much as the lady who 'restored' the artwork did it for the love of contributing to her community. She didn't put any professional art restorers out of business.

Also as a drummer, I'll play for free sometimes, but charge when I can. Somebody who is looking for a drummer who can play "virtually anything, on command" is not going to be calling me.
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  #31  
Old 06-16-2017, 02:22 AM
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As drummers we do a fun thing.

Other things that humans do in the pursuit of satisfaction include cooking, home maintenance/improvement, fixing mechanical objects, painting pictures and having sex.

Some humans do these same things as ways to make money.

If you do one or more of these things as a way to make money, in order to continue making money, you need to be demonstrably better at them than people who do them for free.

As a drummer, my output is only slightly better than this famous piece of art restoration:


That's why I am prepared to play for close to free. Much as the lady who 'restored' the artwork did it for the love of contributing to her community. She didn't put any professional art restorers out of business.

Also as a drummer, I'll play for free sometimes, but charge when I can. Somebody who is looking for a drummer who can play "virtually anything, on command" is not going to be calling me.
I want that fresco on my wall! That was an awesome "restoration" ;)
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