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  #41  
Old 05-31-2017, 12:30 AM
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larryace larryace is offline
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Default Re: Nomenclature

I'd go as far as to say that the human voice is the ultimate expressive instrument. Easiest to load in too :)

Music can be described as controlled, audible vibration. Drummers use their hands and feet to strike things to make them vibrate. String players make strings vibrate according to how they want them to. Trumpeters do that thing with their lips and make them vibrate. Saxists blow air over a reed to make it vibrate, and the horn amplifies and colors the sound. Is there really any difference vibrating the vocal chords with controlled air to make sound, and using the chest cavity and the head cavities for resonance? Using one's own body as an instrument in and of itself is legitimate in my book. No distinction here.
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  #42  
Old 05-31-2017, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
I'd go as far as to say that the human voice is the ultimate expressive instrument. Easiest to load in too :)

Drummers use their hands and feet to make sound. String players make strings vibrate according to how they want it to. Trumpeters do that thing with their lips. Saxists blow air over a reed to make it vibrate, and the horn amplifys and colors the sound. Is there really any difference using the vocal chords to make sound, and using the chest cavity and the head cavities for resonance? Using one's own body as an instrument in and of itself is legitimate in my book. No distinction here.
I like this summary. Maybe it's best if we just say, if you use it to make music, for that purpose, it's an instrument and you're a musician.
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  #43  
Old 05-31-2017, 01:53 AM
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Default Re: Nomenclature

If it vibrates, it's music.. the rest is just opinion..
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  #44  
Old 05-31-2017, 10:20 PM
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Default Re: Nomenclature

Merriam-Webster gives us...


"Definition of musician
:
a composer, conductor, or performer of music; especially
:
instrumentalist"



...though I have heard the usage used to differentiate a 'non-vocal instrument player' from a 'vocal instrument player'...even though the definition of an instrument includes voice.

I try to stay fluid in my usage to allow communication with others that might use the word differently...which seems the point of these words we use : )
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  #45  
Old 05-31-2017, 11:42 PM
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Default Re: Nomenclature

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Originally Posted by paradiddle pete View Post
If it vibrates, it's music.. the rest is just opinion..
My opinion is that my toothbrush is probably not music unless your definition is silly.
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  #46  
Old 06-01-2017, 12:24 AM
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Default Re: Nomenclature

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Originally Posted by paradiddle pete View Post
If it vibrates, it's music.. the rest is just opinion..
Spoken like somebody that has never studied aesthetics...

Nope. My kettle vibrates, too.

I'll replace that definition of music with: 'the deliberate and conscious organising of sound'. It depends on context. If something has been deliberately organised, then it is music - if it has not been, then it is not.

A computer programme playing sound back randomly is music because that sound has been deliberately organised to play back randomly. That takes a level of intention and deliberation. If you have deliberately allowed your kettle to boil in a performance context, that is also music - but if the kettle is just boiling devoid of any further context, then it is not music.

The debate is really whether or not natural 'songs' are music. Is birdsong music? Is whale song music? It is organised but is it deliberate or conscious? What context does it exist in?
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  #47  
Old 06-01-2017, 02:02 AM
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Default Re: Nomenclature

One of the greatest singers to have ever lived, Birgit Nilsson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k32bGiapQCY

The human voice is the instrument that all others strive for. Not sure how the hell anyone can think a singer is not a musician.
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  #48  
Old 06-02-2017, 09:48 AM
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Default Re: Nomenclature

'Instrument' needs a clear definition here.


Yes, singers are musicians, the human voice is far and away the 'ultimate' instrument.
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  #49  
Old 06-02-2017, 11:36 AM
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Default Re: Nomenclature

Quote:
Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke View Post
Spoken like somebody that has never studied aesthetics...

Nope. My kettle vibrates, too.

I'll replace that definition of music with: 'the deliberate and conscious organising of sound'. It depends on context. If something has been deliberately organised, then it is music - if it has not been, then it is not.

A computer programme playing sound back randomly is music because that sound has been deliberately organised to play back randomly. That takes a level of intention and deliberation. If you have deliberately allowed your kettle to boil in a performance context, that is also music - but if the kettle is just boiling devoid of any further context, then it is not music.

The debate is really whether or not natural 'songs' are music. Is birdsong music? Is whale song music? It is organised but is it deliberate or conscious? What context does it exist in?
https://youtu.be/lVPLIuBy9CY
Nope spoken like a fool that has never studied life. Watch and learn. if these seemingly random acts of life don't vibrate in a musical sense i don't know what does.
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  #50  
Old 06-02-2017, 04:18 PM
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Default Re: Nomenclature

Quote:
Originally Posted by paradiddle pete View Post
If it vibrates, it's music.. the rest is just opinion..
I like this. 2 people can hear the same vibrations....say it's a machine vibrating and making sound while it is operating.

The operator of this machine may not think it's just noise....but if you were the guy who designed the machine, you just may think it's a beautiful mechanical symphony.

Both are right, just the perceptions/opinions differ. Which lines up with what Pete said. Opinions, which are tied to perceptions...have to be taken into consideration. Music truly is in the ear of the beholder, exactly like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Can lack of sound be music? I think so. A person who has to deal with hyperactive children all day may think that the lack of sound....silence... is music to their ears. A rest performs a musical function, on that I think most would agree. Who's to say that a 12 hour "rest" can't be music? I think it's safe to say that if you think a sound or lack thereof is music, then it is. Sure people can disagree, but then it goes back to what Pete said.

Sounds can be unorganized and be music...to me...if I think it sounds like music. Period. Listen to seagulls on the beach. Nothing is actually organized, the net sound is a byproduct of the gulls talking to each other. I think it's very musical personally. No one can convince me that the sound of seagulls on the beach is unmusical.
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  #51  
Old 06-02-2017, 05:22 PM
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Default Re: Nomenclature

Do song birds make music?
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  #52  
Old 06-02-2017, 06:22 PM
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Default Re: Nomenclature

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonormapex View Post
Do song birds make music?
If you think it's music then it is.
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  #53  
Old 06-02-2017, 06:57 PM
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Default Re: Nomenclature

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
If you think it's music then it is.
https://youtu.be/r1BCfjbne3s?t=7s
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  #54  
Old 06-02-2017, 07:10 PM
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Default Re: Nomenclature

You can major in music at Eastman or Juilliard in voice ,so I'm gonna lean towards musician.
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  #55  
Old 06-02-2017, 09:07 PM
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Default Re: Nomenclature

Oh brother...

Here's a solution, if you're in the AFM and your dues are paid up, you're a musician. Otherwise you're an instrument owner or singer.
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  #56  
Old 06-02-2017, 09:43 PM
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Default Re: Nomenclature

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonormapex View Post
Do song birds make music?
I've already put in my two penneth on that subject. Conscious intent is the key...
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  #57  
Old 06-02-2017, 09:51 PM
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Default Re: Nomenclature

Quote:
Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke View Post
I've already put in my two penneth on that subject. Conscious intent is the key...
And I'll just spam this musical form here: https://youtu.be/r1BCfjbne3s?t=7s
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  #58  
Old 06-02-2017, 10:15 PM
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Default Re: Nomenclature

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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
And I'll just spam this musical form here: https://youtu.be/r1BCfjbne3s?t=7s
Very cheeky, Watso. Very cheeky.
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  #59  
Old 06-03-2017, 10:49 PM
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Default Re: Nomenclature

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Originally Posted by drummer-russ View Post
I consider a singer to be a musician. The voice is an instrument one needs to practice to be good at. A karaoke singer not so much.
Same here.

It could be argued that a singer's voice is his/her instrument.
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  #60  
Old 06-04-2017, 12:33 AM
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Default Re: Nomenclature

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Originally Posted by drumming sort of person View Post
Oh brother...

Here's a solution, if you're in the AFM and your dues are paid up, you're a musician. Otherwise you're an instrument owner or singer.
So, only Yanks can be musicians?
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  #61  
Old 06-04-2017, 01:02 AM
Steven_E007 Steven_E007 is offline
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Default Re: Nomenclature

I saw "Colloseum" a few years back with Chris Farlowe on vocals. They did a big band number called "Tanglewood 69" - only Colloseum isn't a big band, it is a jazz rock outfit with one sax player, keys, guitar, bass, drums and vocal. The horn arrangement was split between the sax player, keys, guitar and the singer. No words, just notes. Now that guy, best known for his cheesy pop songs, I'd call a musician...

The band I play in is a 'big band' that does everything from the chart. The singer can sight read any chart and sing in tune first time. Also, I humbly suggest, a musician!
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