DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > General Discussion

General Discussion General discussion forum for all drum related topics. Use this forum to exchange ideas and information with your fellow drummers.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1  
Old 05-04-2017, 03:47 PM
triitone triitone is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Iowa
Posts: 21
Default Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Showed up at my lesson, exchanged pleasantries, and paid the teacher for the month. He asked what I had been working on and I replied that I had been working on the groove that he showed me last lesson. I started playing the groove. Almost immediately he stopped me saying that the open handed thing was killing me.

A little back ground here. I am an adult and have been playing for about 9 months. I started playing traditional cross hands/sticks which I learned from a DVD. After reading about open handed playing, I made the switch. I don't intend to say that open handed is superior to any other style of playing, it just happens to be what I think works best for me. I told him that before I ever took my first lesson.

Anyway, I asked him to explain how open handed playing was killing me. He said that there is no way I could do a fill an get back to to the crash or hi-hats on 1. I don't think he could grasp the concept that i could lead the fills with my left hand. I took the challenge. I am probably an intermediate level beginner, so the fills were just sixteenth notes across the toms. Every time I got back on the one. I believe this flustered him. He asked me to get up from the kit and he played some fast fills. The fills were faster than I can play. Perhaps faster that I will ever be able to play, but nothing that would get you on the cover of Modern Drummer. He said that there is no open handed drummer in the world that could play those fills that fast. I replied that there are probably no less than 100, twelve year olds playing open handed that could play those fills just as fast or not faster. I believe that was the end. Then I said if you can't help me learn this way, then maybe I should find another teacher. He was definitely agitated at this time and he said let's do it. He refunded my tuition and told me he couldn't have someone like me reflecting poorly on his teaching.

These were my first lessons with a drum teacher. I suppose I expected the experience to be a little different. While I didn't expect him to learn to play open handed so he could play the examples for me in an open handed style, I did expect him to at least accept my playing style and legitimately try to instruct me in that style. Are those unreal expectation on my part? Is such bias typical among drum teachers?

Thanks For Listening.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-04-2017, 03:55 PM
TripleStroke's Avatar
TripleStroke TripleStroke is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Markham, ON
Posts: 219
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Sorry to hear that. That sounds baffling to me
IMO, anyone who tells anybody else that they should be gripping their sticks only ONE way under any circumstances,
A) dont deserve to teach drums and get paid for
B) should get their ego checked and live in asylum
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-04-2017, 03:56 PM
Icetech's Avatar
Icetech Icetech is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Detroit
Posts: 1,097
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Well. teachers are people with personalities and sometimes it just doesn't work out.. you should have told him to check out some simon phillips videos.. he makes me want to play open.. but it feels so awkward that i'm working on it slowly. My right hand is stupid and can't figure out ghost notes :)
__________________
He boiled for my sins...
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-04-2017, 03:57 PM
drumming sort of person's Avatar
drumming sort of person drumming sort of person is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 2,317
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Quote:
Originally Posted by triitone View Post
Are those unreal expectation on my part? Is such bias typical among drum teachers?
No, and no. Ask around and keep looking for a better teacher. In the meantime, study Billy Cobham, Lenny White, Rayford Griffin, Simon Phillips and Carter Beauford.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-04-2017, 04:00 PM
Mongrel's Avatar
Mongrel Mongrel is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: South Jersey, USA
Posts: 768
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Maybe...he was just a jerk...or maybe there is something else going on and this was just an excuse to encourage you to move along?

Either way, unless you are on a remote island chances are you can find a replacement in a few hours who will better accomodate you.

Maybe I should sign up with him....I play open, cross, matched and traditional. Sometimes in the same song!

Lol
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-04-2017, 04:54 PM
Swiss Matthias's Avatar
Swiss Matthias Swiss Matthias is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 3,205
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Sorry to hear that. At least you seemed to have an open conversation, and
he refunded you.

I personally wouldn't allow myself to say things like that to a student. I think
it's perfectly ok for a teacher to have certain strenghts and weaknesses (well,
it's even very normal and human), and sometimes a certain combination of
student and teacher doesn't work out, also common and human, especially
in the case of adults. But I do think he should have taken the challenge and
accept your open handed style - and be "open" to it, LOL :).
__________________
My website
My youtube channel
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-04-2017, 05:20 PM
DrumWild DrumWild is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 387
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Teachers, therapists, doctors.... I've experienced some that I should have moved on from sooner. I think a big part of it is connection and chemistry.

As for grips, I went to a Steve Smith clinic 15 years ago. He played an intro piece, and then asked if anyone noticed how many different grips he used. I saw five, so spoke up. He confirmed that he used five, and he did that to make the point that no grip is superior, but some grips might work better for you than others while doing different things.

I think stick grip is a world where people can learn various methods and figure it out for themselves.
__________________
I don't really feel like I belong here, so please feel free to delete my account.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-04-2017, 05:30 PM
resunoiz resunoiz is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 109
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

is something of a "uncommon" way of playing, maybe developed in your first era when you had to be "advised".

Surely playing traditionally can be easier for a lot of fills and so on.
I think your teacher had to aware you that this position may limit your progress and propose you to study both techniques: who use open hand style is surely a beast in the other position too :)
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-04-2017, 05:40 PM
Brian Brian is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: New England
Posts: 1,424
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Around 5-10 years ago, I took lessons with an instructor who's band had a CD out. I learned all of the songs on the CD and was influenced a lot by his drumming (soul, funk)

During a lesson I brought up one of the grooves he did, it was called "uncle chicken chips" (band: Superhoney). It's sort of a linear type groove, the whole thing is displaced so the two feels like one. The hi-hat opening on the two, but he rested on the hats on 3, where the snare hit is.

Anyway, he demonstrated the groove and it sounded great. But I was a smartazz and said "yeah, well can you play that groove open-handed"? And I could see him thinking for a few seconds, then he proceeded to nail it, and smiled. He did the same pull-off technique with the left hand on the hats, as he did with the right.

That's the type of instructor you are looking for!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-04-2017, 05:43 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,052
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Quote:
Originally Posted by triitone View Post
I am an adult and have been playing for about 9 months. I started playing traditional cross hands/sticks which I learned from a DVD. After reading about open handed playing, I made the switch. I don't intend to say that open handed is superior to any other style of playing, it just happens to be what I think works best for me.
After 9 months of teaching yourself from videos, you don't know what's going to work best for you long term. I've found most beginners aren't able to tell what works best for them right now.

Quote:
Anyway, I asked him to explain how open handed playing was killing me. He said that there is no way I could do a fill an get back to to the crash or hi-hats on 1. I don't think he could grasp the concept that i could lead the fills with my left hand. I took the challenge. I am probably an intermediate level beginner, so the fills were just sixteenth notes across the toms. Every time I got back on the one. I believe this flustered him.
Well, good, you proved him wrong on that one thing, so now you don't have to listen to anything he says about anything. Most teachers don't dedicate a lot of energy to proving their methods to hostile audiences, so you'll probably have a lot of "success" against them with this tactic.

Quote:
These were my first lessons with a drum teacher. I suppose I expected the experience to be a little different. While I didn't expect him to learn to play open handed so he could play the examples for me in an open handed style, I did expect him to at least accept my playing style and legitimately try to instruct me in that style. Are those unreal expectation on my part? Is such bias typical among drum teachers?
Again, after 9 months, you don't actually have a "playing style." It is unrealistic for you to expect a teacher to create a curriculum to accommodate what is still a non-standard way of playing-- most good teachers will not do that. Some quasi-ethical teachers will let you pay them to develop a method by trial and error, which is what you're really asking of them.

In similar situations, I take the time to talk to the student about why my method is better than the thing they want me to do, and why learning it is a more economical use of their money and practice time. A lot of good teachers won't bother with that, they'll just pass on teaching you-- so that's not a good indicator of who is/isn't a good teacher.
__________________
Visit Cruise Ship Drummer! - a drumming blog | 2017 CSD! Book of the Blog now available
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-04-2017, 05:48 PM
Odd-Arne Oseberg's Avatar
Odd-Arne Oseberg Odd-Arne Oseberg is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sykkylven, Møre og Romsdal, Norway
Posts: 3,395
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

It's messed up, but hardly surprising.

The suckage factor among drum teachers is like any other profession. Actually, given the nature of the beast, it's a lot higher.

Open hand. lol Shouldn't even be an issue.
__________________
So, kick drum...or...bass drum? I'll tell you what. If it's 18" or less, it's a FOOT TOM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-04-2017, 05:56 PM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is offline
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 20,455
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Well you stated in the beginning of your post that you were an adult and IMO you handled it like a good one.

Your former teacher reminds me of a live soundman who knows only one way to get drum tones, port and muffle.

And to make a statement such as his saying that no drummer could play fills that fast openhanded...is ludicrous. Not the kind of mindset you want to pay your money to.

I'm teaching my 11 YO stepson drums and initially he gravitated towards open, so I just went with it. I truly believe that open handed playing is equally effective as "crossed" playing, and maybe even better for certain things. I do see him "crossing" sometimes to see which way feels better to him for certain things. Totally on his own too. It's fun watching a "green" brain tackle drumming logistics. I like letting him try and solve stuff himself first, then I step in and make suggestions. I want him to do it, not me. He came up with his first beat that he made up just the other day. It was good! I like it a lot! It was kind of infectious!

It's great fun. Sometimes I'll start out, Chris, play a 4/4 beat....(while he's playing that) now shuffle it.....now do a 2/4 beat....do the surf beat....now 3/4 time and be as seamless as possible in transition of course. He definitely has a fully functioning musical portion of his brain. He's got the musical memory. He practices without me sometimes, which tells me a lot...that it's really in him.

Everyone is different. A teacher with a "one size fits all" approach...I guess there's some good things to be said for that, but me, I prefer a more tailored approach.

You did good with him. And you got your money back, that was good on his part.
__________________
Levis/Hanes/Timberlands/Custom made socks
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-04-2017, 06:02 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,052
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Quote:
Originally Posted by Odd-Arne Oseberg View Post
Open hand. lol Shouldn't even be an issue.
In 35 years of playing, I know one good drummer who plays that way. Probably a few people I know would be able/willing to teach someone that way. Not many.
__________________
Visit Cruise Ship Drummer! - a drumming blog | 2017 CSD! Book of the Blog now available
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-04-2017, 06:10 PM
Mongrel's Avatar
Mongrel Mongrel is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: South Jersey, USA
Posts: 768
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Quote:
Originally Posted by triitone View Post
Showed up at my lesson, exchanged pleasantries, and paid the teacher for the month....

*snip*

....Thanks For Listening.
Was your teacher's name Todd?

(Sorry Todd, I just couldn't help myself! Lol)
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-04-2017, 06:14 PM
GruntersDad's Avatar
GruntersDad GruntersDad is offline
Administrator - Mayor
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Gulf Coast Seminole, Florida
Posts: 22,112
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

The fact that he told the teacher before his first lesson that that was his intent gave to teacher the right to refuse his money. He accepted it and should have gone on from there. Todd you say you know one person that plays that way so why can't there be a second one. I had too many teachers in my life for a variety of things that weren't flexible, and I didn't continue.
__________________
johnny
Suum cuique tribuere....
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-04-2017, 06:17 PM
williamsbclontz williamsbclontz is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: East Texas area
Posts: 521
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Drums are one of the few instruments that you can do the same thing with both hands. In my opinion your teacher was very much in the wrong. You wouldn't tell a piano player to not strengthen his left hand? My approach is each hand is equally important and anything I do with my right I should also be able to do with my left. That helps coordination and strength and also really helps with fills or if you drop a stick or god forbid need to fix a cymbal or something with your right hand mid performance. I also think every technique should be taken into consideration, like French grip, traditional, match, etc. Jojo Mayer came out with a DVD a while back that was really good in showing different finger techniques and stuff. I garuntee he can play open handed.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-04-2017, 06:36 PM
PorkPieGuy's Avatar
PorkPieGuy PorkPieGuy is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 2,222
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

You did the right thing by leaving.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-04-2017, 06:48 PM
KamaK KamaK is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: East Coast
Posts: 5,686
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

When I started playing three years ago, I pretty much knew the deal. I was left handed. Everyone else is right handed. I went through it with guitar, marksmanship, can-openers, scissors, etc. When I broke my collar bone, I had to learn to throw a baseball right handed.

I guess the point is... I got tired of being odd, so I just sucked it up and dealt with it. Whatever gains I get from leveraging my dominant had pale in comparison the the gains in the resources available to me by simply playing right handed. No teacher drama, no setup drama, no learning-material drama. Yeah, it's hard. Yeah, it took me a full year to develop brisk 16th notes on the hat. But it's been worth it.

While I would never tell another lefty to simply play righty, I'm happy to make them aware that playing righty is possible and extremely common among left handed players. It greatly simplifies the experience at the cost of requiring a lot more work.

Playing open handed appears to be a compromise that doesn't really solve most of the issues faced by lefties.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-04-2017, 06:56 PM
GetAgrippa's Avatar
GetAgrippa GetAgrippa is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: U.S.
Posts: 2,885
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

I'd play him some Simon Phillips and Carter Beauford videos and then let hm go on and on again "bout those fills coming out right". Nuff said and walk out the door. If that don't impress him then try Billy Cobham, Claus Hessler, Dom Famularo, Will Kennedy, and Lenny White too. Yeah you don't want to be "handicapped" by playing open-handed -heaven's sake no.
__________________
"I roll to the tune of a different drummer ;) "
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-04-2017, 07:00 PM
Odd-Arne Oseberg's Avatar
Odd-Arne Oseberg Odd-Arne Oseberg is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sykkylven, Møre og Romsdal, Norway
Posts: 3,395
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

I work mostly with young kids, but one of the first things I do is talk about how things evolved and that today, depending on what you want to do, all sorts of stuff like that is in the end up to them.
__________________
So, kick drum...or...bass drum? I'll tell you what. If it's 18" or less, it's a FOOT TOM.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 05-04-2017, 07:23 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,052
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
Todd you say you know one person that plays that way so why can't there be a second one.
Actually there's one other guy. I think he was bored with the gig, so he was fooling around with it while he was playing.

Quote:
I had too many teachers in my life for a variety of things that weren't flexible, and I didn't continue.
I don't know your situations(s), but sometimes "flexibility" is just unethically taking the money and doing whatever the client says regardless of best practice. It's not actually good service. I also think, as a rule, if someone is having problems with multiple teachers, the teachers may not be the problem. Like I say, I don't know your situation with those teachers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongrel View Post
Was your teacher's name Todd?

(Sorry Todd, I just couldn't help myself! Lol)
Nah, I would've been able to tell him why I think the approach is no good.
__________________
Visit Cruise Ship Drummer! - a drumming blog | 2017 CSD! Book of the Blog now available
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 05-04-2017, 07:37 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,052
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Quote:
Originally Posted by GetAgrippa View Post
I'd play him some Simon Phillips and Carter Beauford videos and then let hm go on and on again "bout those fills coming out right".
He definitely scored a "win" against his teacher in that exchange. I don't think it's a winning attitude in the big picture. But a lot of teachers aren't real articulate about the reasons for things, and it's not too hard to score these little tactical victories.

Quote:
Nuff said and walk out the door. If that don't impress him then try Billy Cobham, Claus Hessler, Dom Famularo, Will Kennedy, and Lenny White too. Yeah you don't want to be "handicapped" by playing open-handed -heaven's sake no.
Of course there's an even longer list of great players who don't play that way, so...
__________________
Visit Cruise Ship Drummer! - a drumming blog | 2017 CSD! Book of the Blog now available
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 05-04-2017, 07:39 PM
Someone's Dad Someone's Dad is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 121
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

On this subject, should drummers aim to be able to play both open and cross-handed? My boy worked out for himself that "Don't Stop Believing" was played open-handed and has continued to experiment from there. Although he's clearly stronger crossed, I assumed that being able to play comfortably in both ways was something worth encouraging.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 05-04-2017, 07:46 PM
Mongrel's Avatar
Mongrel Mongrel is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: South Jersey, USA
Posts: 768
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
mNah, I would've been able to tell him why I think the approach is no good.
Respectfully, your reasoning against developing open handed technique makes about as much sense to me as Buddy Rich's reasoning against using matched grip here: https://youtu.be/v0V4Aqs2D48

All just "opinions" not based on any real concrete reasoning. Not to mention for every negative point against open handed playing or matched grip there will be an equal or greater number of positives that can be given.

"Why relearn ride patterns you can play on your right hand on your left?"

Really? Like it is a bad thing to have equal dexterity in both hands? That is something I just don't get honestly.

For years I kept a second ride over my h-hats...(before I even knew what I was doing) and would play ride patterns there while leaving my right hand on the snare and main ride. But that felt natural to a "lefty" playing on a right handed kit...

Anyway, just not seeing why any intellectually honest reason not to allow someone to develop around an open handed technique. Just start your fills on the opposite hand and you'll find the '1' in plenty of time...
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 05-04-2017, 07:51 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,052
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Quote:
Originally Posted by Someone's Dad View Post
On this subject, should drummers aim to be able to play both open and cross-handed? My boy worked out for himself that "Don't Stop Believing" was played open-handed and has continued to experiment from there. Although he's clearly stronger crossed, I assumed that being able to play comfortably in both ways was something worth encouraging.
It's good to develop roughly equal facility with both hands, but in playing music on the drumset that doesn't necessarily translate the way you would think. He should experiment however he wants, but the most efficient path to playing well is developing a strong right handed approach (assuming he's right handed). See my link below for an explanation of that.

Just to correct your terminology: "crossed" drumming is not a thing. There is right-handed (or left-handed) drumming, and there is open-handed drumming-- which is sometimes R/L-handed, and sometimes hands backwards from feet.
__________________
Visit Cruise Ship Drummer! - a drumming blog | 2017 CSD! Book of the Blog now available
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 05-04-2017, 07:52 PM
Mongrel's Avatar
Mongrel Mongrel is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: South Jersey, USA
Posts: 768
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
Of course there's an even longer list of great players who don't play that way, so...
If that is supposed to "win the argument" against someone learning to play open handed.....I think it missed the mark.

The sheer number not doing it doesn't disprove the fact that there are those who can do it, and do it very well. Which in fact proves it can be done...
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 05-04-2017, 07:59 PM
Someone's Dad Someone's Dad is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 121
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
It's good to develop roughly equal facility with both hands, but in playing music on the drumset that doesn't necessarily translate the way you would think. He should experiment however he wants, but the most efficient path to playing well is developing a strong right handed approach (assuming he's right handed). See my link below for an explanation of that.

Just to correct your terminology: "crossed" drumming is not a thing. There is right-handed (or left-handed) drumming, and there is open-handed drumming-- which is sometimes R/L-handed, and sometimes hands backwards from feet.
Cheers. He's right-handed - I wasn't sure of the terminology and was trying to avoid the term "normal". Just finished reading your post that you linked. Interesting stuff.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 05-04-2017, 08:01 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,052
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongrel View Post
If that is supposed to "win the argument" against someone learning to play open handed.....I think it missed the mark.

The sheer number not doing it doesn't disprove the fact that there are those who can do it, and do it very well. Which in fact proves it can be done...
I don't think I said it was physically impossible to play that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongrel View Post
Respectfully, your reasoning against developing open handed technique makes about as much sense to me as Buddy Rich's reasoning against using matched grip
Sorry that's all you took away from it.
__________________
Visit Cruise Ship Drummer! - a drumming blog | 2017 CSD! Book of the Blog now available
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 05-04-2017, 08:06 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,052
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Quote:
Originally Posted by Someone's Dad View Post
Cheers. He's right-handed - I wasn't sure of the terminology and was trying to avoid the term "normal". Just finished reading your post that you linked. Interesting stuff.
Thanks-- there's one other related thing you might be interested in-- which includes arguments for doing it both ways, depending on the natural handedness/footedness of the student, along with my argument for ignoring that and just playing right handed.
__________________
Visit Cruise Ship Drummer! - a drumming blog | 2017 CSD! Book of the Blog now available
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 05-04-2017, 08:18 PM
Dr_Watso's Avatar
Dr_Watso Dr_Watso is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,357
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

I don't really think it should matter.

A drum is a drum and a note is a note. In the end, as long as you actually can get back to the 1 on time, it really is immaterial which hands were used along the way. It sounds like you weren't even re-arranging the kit or anything, just playing the hats with your left hand for the most part. Shouldn't matter.

I doubt he would have been a good teacher anyway, though. Best not to get too far down the road with him.

On the other hand (pun always intended), Rick Allen never does left hand lead on any of his fills, and they still sell tickets... Maybe teacher had a point?
__________________
"I always wanted to be remembered for; being honest. Nothing else is worth a damn." - Lemmy
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 05-04-2017, 08:38 PM
force3005's Avatar
force3005 force3005 is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 542
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Hi Triitone and welcome to DW. You were right to leave IMO because the teacher can only play one way. A real good teacher would show or try to show how open hand is played. And if his statement was correct that "he couldn't have someone like me reflecting poorly on his teaching" and just playing fast to show his insecurity, that's not the type of person you want to take lessons from. It should not be about him, it's about what you and what you want to learn. And if it's playing open hand, it should be open hand.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 05-04-2017, 08:43 PM
Someone's Dad Someone's Dad is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 121
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
Thanks-- there's one other related thing you might be interested in-- which includes arguments for doing it both ways, depending on the natural handedness/footedness of the student, along with my argument for ignoring that and just playing right handed.
That's another great article. But I've decided to reject your reasoning because I prefer to cling to Skoog's idea that my dominant right hand/left foot combination has prevented me from progressing beyond simple 4/4 rock beats. It's not me, it's the way the drums are set up!
Always wondered about the advantages/disadvantages of left handed guitarists. Never stopped to consider the inflexibility of the piano and how every left-handed pianist has overcome that.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 05-04-2017, 08:50 PM
GetAgrippa's Avatar
GetAgrippa GetAgrippa is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: U.S.
Posts: 2,885
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

"Of course there's an even longer list of great players who don't play that way, so..." That is bout as anecdotal as my list. Neither of of us have done a scientific study to poll all the drummers past and present and gauged their technique to really draw any kind of conclusion-other than anecdotal. It is just an opinion or a preference-I wouldn't get too excited about it. But it's fine to draw whatever conclusions you like and reason however you like.
__________________
"I roll to the tune of a different drummer ;) "
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 05-04-2017, 09:43 PM
brentcn brentcn is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,667
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Quote:
Originally Posted by GetAgrippa View Post
Neither of of us have done a scientific study to poll all the drummers past and present and gauged their technique to really draw any kind of conclusion-other than anecdotal.
Speaking of science, it would be interesting to know what portion of technically proficient open-handed players began as right-handers and switched later.

As a drum and music teacher of many years, I've observed the following:

1. Practice and experience will overcome any advantage from handedness eventually. Lefties learn righty instruments all the time. Pianos, violins, cellos, horns -- lefty versions don't even exist.

2. All drummers will have to spend considerable time and effort developing their weak limb(s). This part comes later for righty drummers on righty kits, and a bit sooner for those leading with their weak hand. But everyone has to climb this hill eventually.

3. Cards on the table: it's possible play a lot of music on the drums -- and be a drummer in a famous band -- with less-than-stellar technique.

4. When you first learn to play drums, what is difficult? The beats are easy to learn, and the fills are, too. It's the transitions that require special attention and practice. In this context, an open-handed drummer usually has to switch the leading hand during fills, and switch back immediately upon playing the beat. At faster tempos, it's even more difficult to negotiate the switching. The one part of early drum lessons that is already difficult, and requires speed in much of modern music, is now made even more so. And for what? A bit of comfort? Visual aesthetics?

5. If you want to learn a song by a right-handed drummer, and that song relies on a right-handed approach, you will spend lots of time problem-solving if trying to adapt an open-handed approach. Time that could be spent working on other, more important things.

6. A drum teacher will usually get you gigs, eventually, if circumstances permit. Burning that bridge means more than just lessons.

To the OP -- I hope you'll read this and know that despite our differing opinions, we're on your side. We all want you to keep drumming, and to get better. Cheers!
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 05-05-2017, 01:15 AM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,052
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Quote:
Originally Posted by Someone's Dad View Post
That's another great article. But I've decided to reject your reasoning because I prefer to cling to Skoog's idea that my dominant right hand/left foot combination has prevented me from progressing beyond simple 4/4 rock beats.
Not sure what you mean there-- are you playing your hands right handed, with the left foot playing the bass drum?

update: I think I understand-- you play right handed/footed, but you think you're left-foot dominant, and would play better if you played the bass drum w/your LF?
__________________
Visit Cruise Ship Drummer! - a drumming blog | 2017 CSD! Book of the Blog now available

Last edited by toddbishop; 05-05-2017 at 01:40 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 05-05-2017, 01:30 AM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,052
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Quote:
Originally Posted by GetAgrippa View Post
"Of course there's an even longer list of great players who don't play that way, so..." That is bout as anecdotal as my list.
Well, heck, you're the one who brought it up.

Quote:
Neither of of us have done a scientific study to poll all the drummers past and present and gauged their technique to really draw any kind of conclusion-other than anecdotal. It is just an opinion or a preference-I wouldn't get too excited about it. But it's fine to draw whatever conclusions you like and reason however you like.
Actually, I have studied it. It's fine if you think your opinions aren't informed enough to be anything more than preferences.
__________________
Visit Cruise Ship Drummer! - a drumming blog | 2017 CSD! Book of the Blog now available
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 05-05-2017, 01:42 AM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,052
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Quote:
Originally Posted by brentcn View Post
As a drum and music teacher of many years, I've observed the following:
All great points, especially:

Quote:
To the OP -- I hope you'll read this and know that despite our differing opinions, we're on your side. We all want you to keep drumming, and to get better. Cheers!
__________________
Visit Cruise Ship Drummer! - a drumming blog | 2017 CSD! Book of the Blog now available
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 05-05-2017, 02:37 AM
WallyY WallyY is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Boston, US
Posts: 1,757
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

If, assuming you're right handed, why would you lead with your left hand?

Wouldn't you want to do everything in a standard fashion except for the crossing of the sticks on the hats?
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 05-05-2017, 04:04 AM
GetAgrippa's Avatar
GetAgrippa GetAgrippa is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: U.S.
Posts: 2,885
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Well no it's just my opinion-not preference?? And I haven't studied or published anything in regard to that-so I'm not stating or taking an authoritative stand-as apparently you. My apologizes if my comments offended you but I mistook your comments as in your opinion and experience-and I didn't realize that you are authoritative and I gather studied and written on the topic-I'd like to read that.
__________________
"I roll to the tune of a different drummer ;) "
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 05-05-2017, 11:21 AM
Swiss Matthias's Avatar
Swiss Matthias Swiss Matthias is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 3,205
Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

While I think there are enough great open handed players around (i.e.
Claus Hessler is NO left handed person) to "prove" that way of playing is at
least valid, and can't be wrong - I think it doesn't have to be for everyone.

Todd, I think many of your points "against" OHP in your blog are subjective
and not equally valid for everyone, either. But there is one point actually I
haven't thought about, and will think about and check it out for myself and
with students: Whether or not cross lateral movements are actually more
difficult to manage than lateral ones.

The fact that most of us (or when I think about it: Noone actually) can't start
both ways from point zero makes it hard to really examine...
__________________
My website
My youtube channel
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 03:10 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com