DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > General Discussion

General Discussion General discussion forum for all drum related topics. Use this forum to exchange ideas and information with your fellow drummers.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1  
Old 04-04-2017, 10:50 PM
rmac86 rmac86 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 94
Default Bad recording experience

Hi guys, first post in a while!

Over the last weekend I have been recording drums for one of my bands EPs which we are hopefully going to use to get gigs - fingers crossed.

However, I must say that as this is my first time recording drums "properly" i.e. fully mic'd up etc. I found it a little bit of an disappointing procedure.

I was so excited to be recording my new Pearl Vision Bop kit, especially to hear the punchy 18" kick, however after I had set everything up the sound engineer came in and noticed the lack of hole in the bass drum, to which he suggested I cut a hole in it there and then! Having spent a lot of time tuning all the drums to suit this particular band, this was not an idea I was overly keen on. So he said something along the lines of "ok fine, we'll do it your way". So, I left the engineer to fit his own mics (didn't really mind this), but when I came back in the room he had completely removed the front skin and taken out the pillow and also had re-tuned the batter head! Naturally I asked why he did it and he responded with "no-one records a bass drum with the front skin on". Ok, fine.

Then he asks - do you really need that second floor tom? I told him obviously yes, he tries to argue me down that it isn't worth his time and I should just pick one and record that. I eventually win that one and get to keep both.

So, recording starts and after about 2 rehearsal tunes I think everything is going alright but the engineer re-enters the room and says I'm going to have to do something about the snare sound (apparently it has too many overtones, which he doesn't like), so despite my protesting he basically said if I didn't let him re-tune my snare I should just forget about the recording and go home. So, I decided not to let my band mates down by throwing a hissy fit (which was very tempting considering the large distance I had driven to get there and back pain I gave myself lifting the gear in and out of the studio) and with great annoyance I proceeded to record a snare that sounded like a cardboard box.

I wouldn't normally mind people making suggestions about my sound and I am all about constructive criticism, but after 9 months of fine-tuning a very particular sound I feel like all this good work has now been undone and most of the joy of hearing my own equipment being played back to me has been cruelly taken away.

The upshot of this all this that the end product - the premixes, whilst good - could have been far better. Even the rest of the band agree that the drums are lacking and that they should be re-recorded. Which basically means me forking out more money that I can't afford. I am also now embarrassed to play the mixes we have received from the studio but feel I have no choice but to pay up and do this all again.

What do you guys think?


Thanks,

R.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-04-2017, 11:09 PM
poekoelan poekoelan is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 70
Default Re: Bad recording experience

I think that if you know what you're doing (i.e. know how to tune your drums properly ) and know the sound that you are going for, then the engineer should be able to get the sound you are looking for or at least close to it. Now don't get me wrong, he may have to remove a reso head or retune a snare in order to get the sound that you're after. But here's my question, did he ever ask you what kind of drum sound you were after?

Remember, if you are paying for this, then the engineer is working for you and should be able to deliver the goods. Things like this happen often to drummers. It happened to me many years ago and I vowed that if I was ever in that situation again, I won't let it happen again.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-04-2017, 11:19 PM
rmac86 rmac86 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 94
Default Re: Bad recording experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by poekoelan View Post
I think that if you know what you're doing (i.e. know how to tune your drums properly ) and know the sound that you are going for, then the engineer should be able to get the sound you are looking for or at least close to it. Now don't get me wrong, he may have to remove a reso head or retune a snare in order to get the sound that you're after. But here's my question, did he ever ask you what kind of drum sound you were after?

That's a fair question - and the honest answer is no. His whole attitude seemed to be that he only has one way of recording drums and if you don't like it, well tough. I honestly was always of the opinion that a sound engineer should have to mess with the tuning of any instrument at all, likewise a good musician wouldn't go and start messing with the sound desk just because he/she is not happy with the sound.

Remember, if you are paying for this, then the engineer is working for you and should be able to deliver the goods. Things like this happen often to drummers. It happened to me many years ago and I vowed that if I was ever in that situation again, I won't let it happen again.
Exactly, though the whole day I couldn't help but feel I was working for this guy and everything I was doing was wrong.

Thanks for your response!

R.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-04-2017, 11:38 PM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is offline
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 20,079
Default Re: Bad recording experience

I can share your pain man. This is a personal pet peeve of mine. Engineers hijacking your sound because they only have one method for recording drums. When you are paying.
I would sort that out on the phone before I even committed to the session.

I wonder how the engineer would have reacted if it was me and I said that I wanted the kick mic like 1 foot away from my unmuffled, full front headed bass drum, and the snare miced about 12" from the snare head so it gets the hi hat too, and 2 overheads for the cymbals and toms. That way overtones would be not overpowering, but they would be present in the exact measure I want. There would be bleed AAAAHHHH! and the kit would sound like a kit, not a collection of instruments in a vacuum. I would mix my cymbal and tom levels myself, the toms would be tuned perfect, and the bass drum and the snare drum sound can still be tweaked if desired later on.

You're not the guy to go home, he is. Kinda pisses me off.

Who is hiring who here?

Now if I'm not the one footing the bill, whatever.

But if I'm paying, I'll find an engineer who will do what I want beforehand, rather than find out on the session.
__________________
Levis/Hanes/Timberlands/Custom made socks
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-04-2017, 11:38 PM
Hollywood Jim's Avatar
Hollywood Jim Hollywood Jim is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 3,631
Default Re: Bad recording experience

Who was paying for the recording time? Who was paying the engineer? Who was the producer?
If you and the band paid for the studio time you and the other band members should have had a united front and told the engineer how it was going to be.

Sounds like you had a jerk for an engineer.

.
__________________
"To play a wrong note is insignificant. To play without passion is inexcusable." - Beethoven
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-04-2017, 11:41 PM
Hollywood Jim's Avatar
Hollywood Jim Hollywood Jim is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 3,631
Default Re: Bad recording experience

Looking at the big picture. It was time and money well spent; because you learned a very valuable lesson.

.
__________________
"To play a wrong note is insignificant. To play without passion is inexcusable." - Beethoven
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-05-2017, 12:08 AM
Dr_Watso's Avatar
Dr_Watso Dr_Watso is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,148
Default Re: Bad recording experience

In my experience, usually it's best to listen to the engineer, and basically kiss their ass. Drums literally almost never ever sound like they do in the room by the time it gets through mixing and EQ. It is very, very common to dry out the drum sounds heavily in the room and then use those drier/shorter sounds in the mix, enhancing a bit of this frequency, and a tad of that frequency. First on the list for most sound guys and engineers is the bass and snare.

The other part of this that comes into play with drums is that we read all about this technique and that technique and how if we put time into it, you can record the sounds you want and not compromise... the issue with that in the setting most of us will be in is that it takes too much time. Typically studios get booked by the day and you have a very short amount of time with which to get a good product. Many of the stories we read about the cool recording techniques fail to mention that it took the drummer and engineer sometimes weeks to come up with the perfect scenario and settle in. Most of us in un-signed acts only have a week total including mixing if we're lucky.

Which is why it's usually best to maximize the time you have, use the techniques that your engineer has vetted and finds easiest/quickest/best for the room to get going and then focus on getting an amazing performance rather than worrying too much about a special tuning we had in our heads for the record or that the kick sound isn't quite as full as you'd prefer.

Next time, show up with a ported head already on. Make sure it's a nice tuning and not too many overtones are present that will need to be eliminated later, bring a few snares, and tune them lower than you would in a live setting. Bring moongels and dampeners and don't bitch about it if the engineer wants to try them.

Now, to be sure, the guy could have explained this to you but chose to be a jerk instead... They get jaded after seeing so many new-to-recording drummers come in who seem to question their every decision when they're trying to work quickly. They usually aren't invested in your music like you are, and if you really feel strongly about something you should push it. But keep in mind the priority and end goal isn't all about one element of the product, it's about the whole end result.
__________________
"I always wanted to be remembered for; being honest. Nothing else is worth a damn." - Lemmy
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-05-2017, 12:12 AM
rmac86 rmac86 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 94
Default Re: Bad recording experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood Jim View Post
Who was paying for the recording time? Who was paying the engineer? Who was the producer?
If you and the band paid for the studio time you and the other band members should have had a united front and told the engineer how it was going to be.

Sounds like you had a jerk for an engineer.

.
The engineer and producer were the same guy, and the reason none of the rest of the group challenged him is that he didn't do anything to their amps, guitars or mics etc. so they had no reason to dislike his methods. And they all seemed to be happy with their respective sounds on the mix also so no reason to complain.

He also is quite an overbearing guy, the type who tells stories about how many fights he gets in etc. so I just felt it would be better to let him have his way and just never darken his door again after this session.

Thanks,

R
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-05-2017, 12:25 AM
Odd-Arne Oseberg's Avatar
Odd-Arne Oseberg Odd-Arne Oseberg is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sykkylven, Møre og Romsdal, Norway
Posts: 3,321
Default Re: Bad recording experience

I don't know about this particular studio, but this has been very common in my experience in budet studio situations. Haven't done that since I was mainly a guitar player, but still...


It seems some engineers have just read a book and know one method. They understand only one type of music and sound and just go on some strange irrational habit.

They don't have a real perspective or adaptability and often just simply have too litle knowledge about music in general.

This goes for micing, both choice of mics, setup and amount of mics anything...

They don't have the overall picture and the abiulity to adjust. Certainly not to understand that they are there for the artist's vision, which really is what their job is. Wannabe techheads basically.

I remember doing a soft slow singer songwriter thing and the engineer, because he had heard about reseting your ears with a recording you know, was using "Hip To Be Square" at an insane volume to do that. lol


There is a sort of common illness. You'll even see it in orchestras where a conductor will spend 90% of his/her time working with their own instrument or instrument group.

It's not always the drums that suffer, though.

I remember many live situations growing up when they spent literally hours work on the drum kit, but the just threw a mic on the guitar and spent 1 minute makng it sound like a swarm of bees.

It happens all over the place, though. Even at the higher levels with the wrong producer for the gig.

I forget which interview, but Peter Erskine talked about doing Rod Stewart's christmas album and being asked to use a wooden beater and play a very strange type of beat. Just doing as he was told by the producer, when Rod showed up he was wondering what the f''' the drummer was doing Peter got to do it his own way again.
__________________
So, kick drum...or...bass drum? I'll tell you what. If it's 18" or less, it's a FOOT TOM.

Last edited by Odd-Arne Oseberg; 04-05-2017 at 12:45 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-05-2017, 12:29 AM
Dr_Watso's Avatar
Dr_Watso Dr_Watso is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,148
Default Re: Bad recording experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Odd-Arne Oseberg View Post
I don't know about this particular studio, but this has been very common in my experience in budet studio situations. Haven't done that since I was mainly a guitar player, but still...


It seems some engineers have just read a book and know one method. They understand only one type of music and sound and just go on some strange irrational habit.

They don't have a real perspective or adaptability and often just simply have too litle knowledge about music in general.

This goes for micing, both choice of mics, setup and amount of mics anything...

They don't have the overall picture and the abiulity to adjust. Certainly not to understand that they are there for the artist's vision, which really is what their job is. Wannabe techheads basically.

I remember doing a soft slow singer songwriter thing and the engineer, because he had heard about reseting your ears with a recording you know, was using "Hip To Be Square" at an insane volume to do that. lol
In addition to what I posted above, this brings up another point. It's my experience that selecting a producer/engineer who is into and good at "your" style of music is of huge importance. Don't go to a jazz guy to record metal, and don't go to a punk producer if you want jazz sounds. They'll try, and may give you a good rate, but it won't get close to the results of someone who's renowned for producing and working with your style.
__________________
"I always wanted to be remembered for; being honest. Nothing else is worth a damn." - Lemmy
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-05-2017, 02:23 AM
The SunDog
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Bad recording experience

I think you should know more about recording. I never run into these kinds of situations. I started making multi track recordings in my practice space when I was a teen and when I started renting time I chose the most awarded studio and engineer in my city. In hindsight this was the best thing I could have done. I've continued making recordings on my own for the last twenty-five years and when I do use a local studio I'm at the point where I can mic the drums and run all the gear myself. I guess you expected perfection, but your level of preparation was below that. Bring a ported head or be very familiar with how to mic and get the best results from an unported reso. Be prepared to tune the drums for the room. A great room can make a bad kit sound good and a bad room can make a great kit sound lifeless. These things need to be dealt with. You need a greater understanding of the process in order to deal with these things in an efficient manner, especially when managing a budget and deadline.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-05-2017, 07:24 AM
toddbishop toddbishop is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 3,971
Default Re: Bad recording experience

Unless you hired this guy specifically to produce the session, all that stuff is totally out of line. It is absolutely not the engineer's job to be tuning your drums, telling you what to use, or what to play. Even if he's acting as producer, if he wants to do something with your sound, he's supposed to make a polite request, and give some deference. If an engineer has a suggestion for helping you get the sound you're after, same deal, but more so.
__________________
Visit Cruise Ship Drummer! - a drumming blog | 2017 CSD! Book of the Blog now available
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-05-2017, 07:53 AM
Rosemarydrumco Rosemarydrumco is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 257
Default Re: Bad recording experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
Unless you hired this guy specifically to produce the session, all that stuff is totally out of line. It is absolutely not the engineer's job to be tuning your drums, telling you what to use, or what to play. Even if he's acting as producer, if he wants to do something with your sound, he's supposed to make a polite request, and give some deference. If an engineer has a suggestion for helping you get the sound you're after, same deal, but more so.
I totally disagree with this. It's the engineers job to get the drums sounding good for the song. Period...so if it's not working, it's absolutely his job to make some suggestions and attempt to solve the issues. To think that what the drummer is hearing behind the kit based off the way he thinks they should be tuned is the end all is very short sighted. The recording environment is very different and how you think your drums should sound doesn't always translate into the best recorded sound.

Of course this all comes down to the skill and experience of the engineer, so if he sucks, then his opinions can be problematic...but if he has experience and you like his work (probably why you hired him), you should trust him.

It seems to me that the OP came in with very strong opinions about how he was going to have his drums sound, and it didn't really mesh very well with the engineer.

Let's be real though...if you are making a metal record he's probably going to enhance or replace your drums with samples anyways...so you should see some improvements to the mixes you have already heard.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-05-2017, 08:25 AM
Captain Bash Captain Bash is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 507
Default Re: Bad recording experience

Before doing a recording it is always best to actually talk to the engineer and or producer. From the very start you need to ALL be shooting for the same sound, mic placement, heads/ tuning, drum, drummer, stick type, room acoustics not to mention all the downstream preamps, eq and actual recording medium culminate in the desired or undesired recorded sound. I've had both wow moments and ohh dear what have you done moments.

You can't take on too much at once, I generally prefer to concentrate on getting a good performance rather than doing the engineers job, but you need them onside.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-05-2017, 10:51 AM
mikyok's Avatar
mikyok mikyok is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Tipton in the mighty Black Country
Posts: 1,559
Default Re: Bad recording experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bash View Post
Before doing a recording it is always best to actually talk to the engineer and or producer. From the very start you need to ALL be shooting for the same sound, mic placement, heads/ tuning, drum, drummer, stick type, room acoustics not to mention all the downstream preamps, eq and actual recording medium culminate in the desired or undesired recorded sound. I've had both wow moments and ohh dear what have you done moments.

You can't take on too much at once, I generally prefer to concentrate on getting a good performance rather than doing the engineers job, but you need them onside.
Finally a common sense approach!

Last time I recorded in another studio the engineer called me and we had a 20 minute conversation about mics/drums/snares/heads etc. If you let the engineer know what sound you have and like then show up with a well tuned kit with fresh heads on that sounds good at source you'll have the easiest recording session going.

The engineer from the OP sounds like he's read a retards guide to recording drums. He really needs to learn to record a bass drum properly.

Remove the front head????? Welcome to the 70s! The only reason I can come up with for that is so he can put a mic right on the batter head to isolate it and then replace it with a sample bass drum. This may apply to the rest of your drums as well.

The result is usually a generic bland drum sound. What genre are you recording?
__________________
I aint farting on no snare drum
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-05-2017, 10:54 AM
BacteriumFendYoke's Avatar
BacteriumFendYoke BacteriumFendYoke is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Ashford, Kent, UK
Posts: 6,380
Default Re: Bad recording experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bash View Post
Before doing a recording it is always best to actually talk to the engineer and or producer. From the very start you need to ALL be shooting for the same sound, mic placement, heads/ tuning, drum, drummer, stick type, room acoustics not to mention all the downstream preamps, eq and actual recording medium culminate in the desired or undesired recorded sound. I've had both wow moments and ohh dear what have you done moments.

You can't take on too much at once, I generally prefer to concentrate on getting a good performance rather than doing the engineers job, but you need them onside.
This is it, right here.

I've been on both sides of 'the great divide' and what really helps is if the drummer and the engineer both know a fair amount about each other's fields, rather than just their own. Then you can have constructive conversations about what you're both aiming for. Engineers bash drummers and drummers bash engineers and it has been this way since time immemorial - this happens because they don't know enough about what the other does and don't have the conversations.
__________________
PEWFLADCC
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-05-2017, 11:05 AM
Woolwich Woolwich is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 560
Default Re: Bad recording experience

As Hollywood Jim said, taking a cup half full approach this has taught you and everyone reading it a valuable lesson.
Many of the drummers on here have got masses of experience in the studio working with engineers and producers from the very best to the very worst. You, and I don't, so upon entering the studio or a recording environment we're at a disadvantage.
My first experience in a studio as a teenager started with me, the bassist and a guitarist all in the same room playing the initial track. I didn't even look and certainly can't remember about mic placement, this was pre Internet- first time in a studio and it didn't register. I did think it was amateurish because in magazines I'd seen things like drum booths etc, so it didn't bode well. To this day that recording was the fullest most "Metal" I've ever recorded.
Next time was a studio with a drum booth, individual recordings etc. Awful.
The next two were the same studio as the awful one but with a different engineer/producer. Very good indeed.
For none of these did anyone ever ask me to "do" anything to my kit.
We recorded two "as live" videos a few years back, we had about 3 hours to do two tracks as audio and video. The engineer/producer put triggers on my three toms, it sounded really good, I can't complain. Especially as rather than automatically destroying my resonant bass head we explored options to tame an errant overtone and managed it with a blob of tone gel.
Ten years ago when I got back into playing I was twisted into cutting a hole in my resonant head on the spot. It worked but never again.
A few years ago we did a massive show in front of several thousand people and, predictably, the stage crew bitched about me having a full head and said it was a good job they had a ribbon mic. I bit my tongue, I get the feeling that it's like a dance and they always say this to someone without a ported head knowing nothing's going to change. I suggested micing it from the batter side as I used to do but "miraculously" they mic'd from the front with no problems or concerns.

And THAT is pretty much my sum total of studio/big live experience. Not a lot really so no wonder many of us fall foul when entering the studio. I am aware that a good engineer might do stuff that sounds counter intuitive and maybe sounds bad at the time, but the recording studio is a different environment and they know what they're doing. As pointed out earlier too, at my bands level any recording will be done on an "in no out within a day" basis so quick fixes are necessary. The proof of the pudding though is in the sound and if the whole of your band don't like what you've ended up with then perhaps the engineer on your recording has one way of doing things only, and that one way is not very good.

As a side thought, at our gig on Saturday the soundman ran his desk into a PC and recorded our performance as a multi track. We haven't heard it yet and it might be rubbish, but alternatively there might be two hours worth of stuff we can use as it is, or if we had a mind to perhaps we could use the drum, bass and rhythm guitar tracks as a starting point and overdub stuff? Food for thought for you, from my standpoint once I started playing I didn't think twice about It being recorded, unlike that red light fever that we can succumb to in a studio when the stakes seem higher.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-05-2017, 11:11 AM
BacteriumFendYoke's Avatar
BacteriumFendYoke BacteriumFendYoke is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Ashford, Kent, UK
Posts: 6,380
Default Re: Bad recording experience

Woolwich, in relation to your last question:

You could certainly use any live recording as a starting point for further work. King Crimson and countless others have done this (in their case the album 'Starless and Bible Black' was recorded live and then overdubbed). The only caveat to making it work is timing. Your live timing will not line up with a metronome easily (not a slight at you, it's just the nature of live playing with 99% of people) so you'd have a harder time performing overdubs. The way you've described - using drums, bass and guitar and overdubbing vocals is precisely the way I'd recommend. You could overdub another guitar track (and you might be advised to - just to thicken it all up a bit) without it being too painful but I'd steer away from punching in on anything other than the vocals.
__________________
PEWFLADCC
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-05-2017, 12:00 PM
mikel mikel is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Midlands. England.
Posts: 2,264
Default Re: Bad recording experience

Its sadly not un common. Some of the less skilled engineers have one sound and one way of achieving it, simply because it makes there life easy.

Real engineers are only too happy to try and get the sound that YOU want, no matter how off the wall it may be. If the musicians leave the studio happy with the recording they have its job done, no matter what the studio staff think of the result.

I am happy to try and accommodate an experienced engineers wishes but If his idea is miles away from the sound I like I wont accept it. I am paying so its my call, up to a certain point. I have told an engineer that I tune my drums to achieve the sound I want the audience to hear, and thats the sound I want, If the room or the equipment make it difficult to get that sound in the studio then we compromise.

Close micing is only one way of doing it, there are many others, If the studio is not prepared to even try and get your sound then go to a different studio, you are the customer.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-05-2017, 12:44 PM
STXBob's Avatar
STXBob STXBob is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Harrisburg, PA USA
Posts: 1,342
Default Re: Bad recording experience

That engineer seems like a real ass-cactus.

Now, I'm no studio savant. But I've done some recording.

The most work I did I was basically "on call" for a studio. When the producer/engineer/owner would get a gig to record something and he thought I could do it, he'd call me. He'd send me some scratch tracks, I'd spend a couple days working on the tunes, and then we'd spend a couple days laying down tracks. The important thing to note here is we used his kit. He had it set up, dialed in, and ready to go. I'd bring my cymbals and a couple of snares, but that was only to supplement his collection so we had more sonic options.

The point is it was easier to use his gear than bring my own. I walked in, we'd talk for a half-hour or so about where we wanted to go with the project, then we'd start recording. No muss, no fuss, no fiddling around with mics or placement. Sit down, set levels, then hit record.

As a slight tangent, that kit (a DW Performance) sounded like dogsh!t. No front head on a kick with foam and a moving blanket in it, the toms had more gaffer tape visible than mylar on the original stock heads, and every snare he owned needed a new batter head. But the sound in the booth was amazing. He really knew what he needed to do to get an awesome sound out of that kit. He and I used to argue about it; of course my opinion is that if you start with a good sound you don't need to process it quite so much. But he had it dialed in, so...

The last project I tracked, I used my kit, dragged it into a guy's home studio like the OP. No port in the kick, no gels, nothing. Totally my sound. But the engineer/producer was the guy who does Lenny Kravitz's albums, so the experience was a little bit different. :-) He set me up where he knows he gets the best drum sound in his space, had me play for about 90 seconds, then started setting up mics. We got it with a kick mic, a condenser about Larry distance from the snare, and a room mic. Totally organic, totally great sound.

So yeah, I really think you hit one of the legion of rather crappy recordists out there, rmac86. If you, as the guy who is paid to record drums, have a Way Of Doing Things when you record, provide a kit and save everyone's time. If you actually know what you're doing and can get a good sound quickly irrespective of what players schlep through the door, then you can let people schlep stuff through the door. You shouldn't do both; it just wastes everyone's time and pisses everyone off.
__________________
Cheers,

Bob Davis

www.reconstructinghistory.com
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-05-2017, 01:42 PM
eclipseownzu's Avatar
eclipseownzu eclipseownzu is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: New London, CT
Posts: 1,418
Default Re: Bad recording experience

Story time here kids. I got the chance to track some drums at Nick Bellmore's studio in New Haven, CT a few months ago on some tracks Zeuss was producing. Nick has engineered a couple of albums by little bands like Hatebreed and Down. Zeuss produced albums by some guy named Rob Zombie, so I assume they know what they are doing. The bottom line is I trusted them and had heard enough to know the drums would sound amazing when we were done.

I asked if I should bring my gear and was basically told "no, yours will sound like crap. You will use ours." When I showed up everything was tuned really high, the snare was as dry as a marching snare, the cymbals were like 4 feet over my head and the hi-hat felt like it was on the other side of the room. This was all for separation, and the tuning was what they felt was right for the room. I personally hated it, but again, I trusted them, so I just went in and played my parts.

In your case it is completely possible that the engineer did know best. Or it is possible you just went to the wrong guy. If all this guy does is extreme metal then he is likely engineering your sound with those same requirements. Not everybody is versatile, but in the end it is up to you to know that before you go in. In the end, the proof is in the pudding. Listen to the final mix and then see how it sounds. you may be surprised.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-05-2017, 01:52 PM
JohnoWorld
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Bad recording experience

All this is a good reason to save up for your own studio gear. ie. a computer, audio interface and mics (& software of course) and then you can learn all that stuff yourself.

I'm half-way between the two really, the engineer has a right to be pedantic about the drum sound, as does the drummer, but we all have to be realistic and that's what the OP tried.

I would say that whilst the first listen might sound like crap, with a bit of eq, a cardboard box can sound a lot better. Essentially, all drums sound like cardboard boxes until you eq them. Don't forget that compression is a very important part of the sound too.

At the mo, I'm experimenting with the room mic on my kit, I have also raised my cymbals away from the drum mics so as to minimise bleed (coz I get a lot when setup just as I like it)

What I'm saying is that I had to make changes to my drum/cymbal positions into places less comfortable in order to record a good sound.

We all have to compromise, ideally a studio kit would be a 4 piece with minimal cymbals, all spaced out nicely from each other in a good reverberating room.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-05-2017, 03:24 PM
8Mile's Avatar
8Mile 8Mile is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 3,792
Default Re: Bad recording experience

It's more important to me to keep a positive head space and focus on getting prepared for the show than to argue about my sound. So I usually make life easy on the sound engineer and do what makes him or her feel comfortable.

There are some exceptions. If a particular recording or gig is really important to me and I have the creative control, then I will demand things be done a certain way. But in my world, that's a relative minority of gigs.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-05-2017, 03:24 PM
MJD's Avatar
MJD MJD is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Pleasantville NY USA
Posts: 537
Default Re: Bad recording experience

Sounds rough man. For the EP that i've been recording the engineer/producer is also a drummer. 1st thing we did was buy new heads for his kit(Pearl Masters, Coated Ambassadors over clear Ambassadors) and then he had me tune to my satisfaction. Then we recorded it and we determined what we needed to change to get the recorded sound to match up what we heard in the room. This involved retuning the kick and selecting completely different cymbals. The sound in the room ended up not being quite what i would want to play these songs live with but the sound on the tracks is exactly what i wanted. We used 4 mics on the drums Kick, snare, and a pair of overheads. The engineer should be able to mic your kit the way you tuned it and make it sound good but conversely recorded sound is an entirely different beast than live sound in a room and you as the drummer will have to make adjustments in order to get the sound on the tape to be what you hear in your head.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-05-2017, 04:16 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 3,971
Default Re: Bad recording experience

[quote=Rosemarydrumco]I totally disagree with this. It's the engineers job to get the drums sounding good for the song. Period...[\QUOTE]

Well, you would be wrong about that. What you're describing is part of the artist's or producer's job. Determining "what's best for the song" is not the engineer's job, unless he thinks he knows what the artist is going for, and it's not happening, and he wants to make a suggestion about how to achieve it.
Quote:

It seems to me that the OP came in with very strong opinions about how he was going to have his drums sound, and it didn't really mesh very well with the engineer.
It's his prerogative to insist on the sound he wants, and it's not his job to mesh with the engineer-- it's the other way around. If the engineer has suggestions he needs to be nice about it, and ultimately defer to the artist.
__________________
Visit Cruise Ship Drummer! - a drumming blog | 2017 CSD! Book of the Blog now available
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 04-05-2017, 04:54 PM
TheElectricCompany's Avatar
TheElectricCompany TheElectricCompany is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 373
Default Re: Bad recording experience

I plan on putting an un-ported Ambassador on my kick and I'm worried about the guff I'm gonna get from sound guys. At my last show I asked the sound guy how often he encounters un-ported heads and he rolled his eyes and said that fortunately they're few and far between. He said they're too difficult to get a good sound from and the full reso head prevents you from being able to get any attack from the drum. I think a lot of the sound guys I encounter listen primarily to the kinds of awful music that replace the bass drum with clicks and because that's their idea of attack, that's what they think a live drum should sound like.

Am I out of line for thinking that a professional live sound engineer should be able to get a good sound from any type of well tuned drum, rather than trying to bend it to his ideal drum sound? Maybe the problem is the sound guys working local clubs and bars aren't really professionals.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 04-05-2017, 05:13 PM
JohnoWorld
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Bad recording experience

Below is an example of a live recording using an un-ported kick drum.

1 mic in front of the front head, one inverted condenser between floor tom, ride and snare and 1 overhead.

If you don't cut a hole in the head, this is how your kick drum will sound, more of a pulse than a hit i guess. You can do a lot less with this kind of sound than you can with a ported head.

https://grandmarshall.bandcamp.com/album/reenable
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 04-05-2017, 05:19 PM
Odd-Arne Oseberg's Avatar
Odd-Arne Oseberg Odd-Arne Oseberg is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sykkylven, Møre og Romsdal, Norway
Posts: 3,321
Default Re: Bad recording experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheElectricCompany View Post
Maybe the problem is the sound guys working local clubs and bars aren't really professionals.
They simply know just one side, one situation and one set of issues.

Being a complete engineer is something diffferent, Still, just like musicians, you'll be hard pressed to find someone who's just great at it all.

You got guys li Vinnie for drums, Tim Pierce for guitar, the session musicians that do it all. Same with engineers. The ones that understand everything are few and far between.

It's not about being a master of everything, though. It's really about attitude, the humility to be open to learning, being present, focusing on the right things.

For us that at least try to have some sort of overall understanding though, it does get a bit annoying meeting people, who even seem to get plenty of work, that haven't really understood some simple basics.

I generally do meet better live engineers these days, though. Many of them are pretty young to. They are simply spunges for info, know how to use the web to learn and do whatever it takes to do a good job.

These ideas go for everything. In football conditioning, technical skills and talent helps, but the guy who gets the ball in the end is the one that wants it the most, who is willing to go that extra mile and do it all the time. Sadly, that isn't always appreciated when you work behind the scenes, just like being a teacher, I guess.
__________________
So, kick drum...or...bass drum? I'll tell you what. If it's 18" or less, it's a FOOT TOM.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 04-05-2017, 05:24 PM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is offline
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 20,079
Default Re: Bad recording experience

I get the tape and muffling and all, sounds like crap in the room, amazing on tape. I would have no problem but I like overtones.

I'm pretty sure you can't put overtones in afterwards on a drum that is taped up. A drum with O-tones sounds so great because you rarely hear it on recordings. OMG it's not that hard, think Bonham. I can do it. If I can do it and an engineer can't/won't...he doesn't have any respect from me. Kind of pisses me off.
__________________
Levis/Hanes/Timberlands/Custom made socks
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 04-05-2017, 05:32 PM
JohnoWorld
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Bad recording experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
I get the tape and muffling and all, sounds like crap in the room, amazing on tape. I would have no problem but I like overtones.

I'm pretty sure you can't put overtones in afterwards on a drum that is taped up. A drum with O-tones sounds so great because you rarely hear it on recordings. OMG it's not that hard, think Bonham. I can do it. If I can do it and an engineer can't/won't...he doesn't have any respect from me. Kind of pisses me off.
+1

If I'm just practicing at home through my IEMs, I add an o-ring to cut out the ringing of the snare a bit, it's just a bit over-bearing in the live mix. Whenever I'm recording though, i have to remember to take off the o-ring as it sounds dead when recorded with it.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 04-05-2017, 05:46 PM
Dr_Watso's Avatar
Dr_Watso Dr_Watso is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,148
Default Re: Bad recording experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
If we're talking "out there" techniques, I'd agree, but a good room, well prepared kit, an engineer who knows his room, & you should be up & running in no more than 30 minutes from first placing mic's.
That really depends heavily on the kit, it's setup and how it sounds. We don't know those variables, (please note, not talking crap about the OP!) nor do we know for example what mics he had, or how much time this was supposed to get done in. If you're en engineer charged with getting good sounds and it's just not working out with the gear brought in, you need to be expedient about changing things so you can work with them.

Quote:
It's quite obvious that the OP didn't have the benefit of a good engineer, & probably not a good room either. Those key elements need to come together.
Based on this one-sided report and no audio of either before or after, I guess I agree, but I've personally seen you yourself lament about having to do sound for good drummers with poorly maintained, setup or tuned kits. Drummers can get VERY defensive about their sounds and often don't hear what others do. It's very possible this guy really knew what he was doing, or maybe he didn't! Perhaps if he had the right types of mics, he would have allowed the front head to stay on, who knows?

Quote:
The result, & the attitude, are oh so typical of demo grade studios. Unfortunately, you often get what you pay for. There's absolutely no excuse for the attitude from this so called engineer. It's not just his job to get the best sound, it's also his job to support + encourage players to get the best out of them. If he's too jaded to work with relatively inexperienced players, he shouldn't accept work from them.
You get what you pay for is sort of the lesson here I think. We don't know the costs, but musician budgets tend to be lean.

Do research, make sure you understand how an engineer works and what his stuff sounds like. If he consistently pumps out great music in the genre, it may be worth deferring to his experience and not worrying so much about the room sound; which, quite frankly can change just from being a different room. That 4 hours of tuning you put in down in the basement can be almost useless once you get in the odd-shape muffled setup of a real recording room.
__________________
"I always wanted to be remembered for; being honest. Nothing else is worth a damn." - Lemmy
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 04-05-2017, 05:48 PM
STXBob's Avatar
STXBob STXBob is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Harrisburg, PA USA
Posts: 1,342
Default Re: Bad recording experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheElectricCompany View Post
Am I out of line for thinking that a professional live sound engineer should be able to get a good sound from any type of well tuned drum, rather than trying to bend it to his ideal drum sound? Maybe the problem is the sound guys working local clubs and bars aren't really professionals.
I don't think you're not out of line, but that's a matter of opinion. ;)
__________________
Cheers,

Bob Davis

www.reconstructinghistory.com
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 04-05-2017, 05:50 PM
Rosemarydrumco Rosemarydrumco is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 257
Default Re: Bad recording experience

[quote=toddbishop;1494722]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosemarydrumco
I totally disagree with this. It's the engineers job to get the drums sounding good for the song. Period...[\QUOTE]

Well, you would be wrong about that. What you're describing is part of the artist's or producer's job. Determining "what's best for the song" is not the engineer's job, unless he thinks he knows what the artist is going for, and it's not happening, and he wants to make a suggestion about how to achieve it. It's his prerogative to insist on the sound he wants, and it's not his job to mesh with the engineer-- it's the other way around. If the engineer has suggestions he needs to be nice about it, and ultimately defer to the artist.
We have a difference of opinion here and thats ok. I've spent a lot of time in the studio on each side of the coin so we can agree to disagree. I don't think random session drummer comes in and tells CLA how to get the best sounds out of his drums...and since in this situation the engineer was the producer, I think he does have the authority to make some sonic decisions here. Typically the producer is working with the engineer to get the sound the band wants and he thinks best.

The issue here is lack of communication and difference of opinion between the engineer/producer and the drummer. They should be on the same page. But If the drummer/band tells the producer the sound he wants and engineer thinks they need to go about it a different way than he thinks to achieve that sound, the drummer should trust the engineer. That's why it's so important you pick the right one.

No offense to the OP but it seems he doesn't have a ton of studio experience...so it may just be possible the engineer knows more than him when it comes to getting a great sound IN THE STUDIO.

Like I said...this is all out the window if the engineer sucks. I don't know what level of professionalism this is on...so my arguments may be completely mute.

I just don't believe real session drummers and those that spend a ton of time doing studio work tell the producers and engineers how their drums should sound. The producers know the sound they want and the band trusts them to get it more often than not.

I'm just saying when I go into a live or studio gig I get with the engineer to talk with him about what sound would serve the music and we work together to achieve it. That's how I think it should be.

Last edited by Rosemarydrumco; 04-05-2017 at 06:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 04-05-2017, 05:52 PM
Odd-Arne Oseberg's Avatar
Odd-Arne Oseberg Odd-Arne Oseberg is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sykkylven, Møre og Romsdal, Norway
Posts: 3,321
Default Re: Bad recording experience

It's one of those things.

Certain styles require muffling. Anything goes really, it's as much personal style and taste as anything.

There is a thing about overtones and drums, though. It actually took me a while to get used to fully sustaining drums and hear everything. Just like those mid frequencies that might sound weird to some on e.g. guitar though, drums sound way deeper from a distance than behind the kit etc..., in many settings those overtones are needed to cut through. You don't hear it in context.

Another example would be to hear the vocals on a typical ballad isolated with fx. In a dense mix there's probaly 10x more reverb on that track than would think.

In the case bass drums, there is a reason some engineers go a bit wild with the micing, like 3-5 mics. If they don't know exactly how things will be mixed they have stuff to work with and the complexity of that straight recorded sound will always have an edge over what can be done with any EQ tweak. Unless you start replacing and adding in samples, but then, what's the point.


Unported BD heads is a special case, though. It's sort of a thing now, it's in style, so knowing how to work with it isn't much to ask.

Just taking the reso off completely and putting a mic inside the drum is a normal thing to do though, for a certain sound and control. It feels quite different to play. It all depends on the music.
__________________
So, kick drum...or...bass drum? I'll tell you what. If it's 18" or less, it's a FOOT TOM.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 04-05-2017, 05:57 PM
Woolwich Woolwich is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 560
Default Re: Bad recording experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnoWorld View Post
Below is an example of a live recording using an un-ported kick drum.

1 mic in front of the front head, one inverted condenser between floor tom, ride and snare and 1 overhead.

If you don't cut a hole in the head, this is how your kick drum will sound, more of a pulse than a hit i guess. You can do a lot less with this kind of sound than you can with a ported head.

https://grandmarshall.bandcamp.com/album/reenable
I'm going to respectfully disagree with you.
I initially used an unported head because I liked the aesthetics of it. When playing live we would mic it from the batter side and there was attack and body.
When using an expert I've asked them initially to mic from the front with the option to mic the batter if it's problematic. It never has been. As I mentioned earlier I had one set of roadies (I don't think they were "professional" soundmen) grumble about my full head but I think they were grumbling because they were conditioned too, we got a big bass drum sound in a huge marquee with little effort. I've calmed an overtone down with one large (1") oval of Wincent tone gel. The guy we've just started using didn't say anything or roll his eyes but simply got down to micing up and quickly got a big attacking sound. Perhaps the fact that my curent bass drum is a 14" depth has something to do with it but I've front micd both 16" and 18" drums.
I'm not awkward (moon gel is on the snare and Aquarian Studio Rings on the toms to speed up a good drum sound when close micd) but as a point of principle the likelihood of me cutting a hole in my reso head hovers around zero. My experience is that a good sound can be quickly had with a full reso and I'll be damned if I'm going to butcher a perfectly good head just so that I don't need to have "that discussion" with a soundman, especially when the guys I've been working with these last few months have no issues with a full head.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 04-05-2017, 06:16 PM
JohnoWorld
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Bad recording experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woolwich View Post
I'm going to respectfully disagree with you.
I initially used an unported head because I liked the aesthetics of it. When playing live we would mic it from the batter side and there was attack and body.
When using an expert I've asked them initially to mic from the front with the option to mic the batter if it's problematic. It never has been. As I mentioned earlier I had one set of roadies (I don't think they were "professional" soundmen) grumble about my full head but I think they were grumbling because they were conditioned too, we got a big bass drum sound in a huge marquee with little effort. I've calmed an overtone down with one large (1") oval of Wincent tone gel. The guy we've just started using didn't say anything or roll his eyes but simply got down to micing up and quickly got a big attacking sound. Perhaps the fact that my curent bass drum is a 14" depth has something to do with it but I've front micd both 16" and 18" drums.
I'm not awkward (moon gel is on the snare and Aquarian Studio Rings on the toms to speed up a good drum sound when close micd) but as a point of principle the likelihood of me cutting a hole in my reso head hovers around zero. My experience is that a good sound can be quickly had with a full reso and I'll be damned if I'm going to butcher a perfectly good head just so that I don't need to have "that discussion" with a soundman, especially when the guys I've been working with these last few months have no issues with a full head.
Well, fair enough, but I did give the mic position. Plus if you mic just the front head, you're going to have the flattest sounding kick drum ever.

I would recommend a combination of your setup and and mine for a studio. Get the pulse from the front head and the attack from the front head.

if you have enough mics and tracks of course

If I was a live engineer and the drummer turned up with an un-ported kick drum, I would take the front head off and mic it close to the beater.

2 full heads on your kick drum is just not required for live situations as it will have the bejeezus compressed out of it anyway, negating any personal preference you have. I can understand for recording, but live, no, unless it's a room micced kinda jazz situation.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 04-05-2017, 08:02 PM
Dr_Watso's Avatar
Dr_Watso Dr_Watso is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,148
Default Re: Bad recording experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
& that would be quicker than mic'ing the batter head?
I can think of quite a few situations where that's true. Depends what sounds you're looking for, what the overall mix will be like, how the other bands will be mic'd, what mics you have available, what the room does to the sound waves, and so on.

I've personally been there when a sound guy took some dudes head off, and in every case, it was because his kit with the stock Yamaha un-ported head didn't sound good in the mix and they simply weren't important enough to warrant lots of extra setup time when there's other bands to sound check and he's already had to do that so many times that he already has freaking pre-sets on his board for the occasion.

Harder to admit, I used to be "that guy". Early in my gigging experience I would bring out my un-ported 22x18 which sounded okay in a bigger room but would always sound weak, muddy or farty when a close mic was placed. Of course, at the time I never admitted any of that. I took a "sounds/feels good to me, make it work, sound guy" approach and after about the 3rd time I got the "suck" button pressed on my kick I got wise.

Unless you have a dedicated tech, or are a big headline act, or you do your own sound, showing up to a gig\session without a port or willingness to be flexible is not in your best interest generally speaking.

As much as we hate to think so, in the majority of cases, the sound guy who does this every day really does have some good experience behind him, more than we do almost certainly, he might not know every technique for the less common setups, but be real... We would all love it if we always had extremely patient, willing, world class sound help, but, well... Usually it pays to do it their way.
__________________
"I always wanted to be remembered for; being honest. Nothing else is worth a damn." - Lemmy
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 04-05-2017, 08:21 PM
GetAgrippa's Avatar
GetAgrippa GetAgrippa is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: U.S.
Posts: 2,594
Default Re: Bad recording experience

Man I've never recorded my drums or recorded in a studio-I have been recorded playing with an orchestra and whatnot but I'm completely naive of the subject so have nothing of value to add. But I do have an observation and a question- that it sure seems it doesn't matter how well you play if you aren't mic'ed and recorded properly no one hears or what they hear may sound poor? Always seems to be an issue with the kick-is it because mics just don't or can't record the real sound and tones we hear in the low frequencies of a kick so engineers create a sound they can record?
__________________
"Only play the notes when required!"
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 04-05-2017, 08:21 PM
KamaK KamaK is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: East Coast
Posts: 5,686
Default Re: Bad recording experience

Reading through all of this.... My question is....

Where the hell was your producer?

Engineers listen to the producer. Instruments are set up and mic'ed by the engineer in accordance to what the producer desires. If you do not have a producer, try to get one before going into another studio.

The only things that a drummer needs to do is to make sure they can still reach all of the instruments, give the engineer an idea of what the levels are going to be, and deliver a spectacular performance.

Left to their own devices, most engineers have one or two sure-fire methodologies they use to record any particular instrument and are frustrated when they need to deviate from their proven routines.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 04-05-2017, 08:39 PM
TripleStroke's Avatar
TripleStroke TripleStroke is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Markham, ON
Posts: 218
Default Re: Bad recording experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
Reading through all of this.... My question is....

Where the hell was your producer?

Engineers listen to the producer. Instruments are set up and mic'ed by the engineer in accordance to what the producer desires. If you do not have a producer, try to get one before going into another studio.

The only things that a drummer needs to do is to make sure they can still reach all of the instruments, give the engineer an idea of what the levels are going to be, and deliver a spectacular performance.

Left to their own devices, most engineers have one or two sure-fire methodologies they use to record any particular instrument and are frustrated when they need to deviate from their proven routines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmac86 View Post
The engineer and producer were the same guy

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 20 characters.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com