DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > General Discussion

General Discussion General discussion forum for all drum related topics. Use this forum to exchange ideas and information with your fellow drummers.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 03-10-2017, 11:02 PM
tilopa108 tilopa108 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 8
Default low-end beginner acoustic vs Yamaha DTX522k

I know the acoustic vs electronic question has been asked to death, I have read many of those threads. I feel like my question is specific enough to justify this question.

I'm a straight beginner. Picked up a cheap set of Alesis DM6 electroni drums used for $100 the other week, but feel like they are pretty crappy even for a practicing beginner. I want to upgrade as I've caught the bug to play drums and I feel I will stick with it, at least for long enough to warrant buying something a bit better. My budget is under $1000, and really like to keep it at about $800, which is the price of the Yamaha DTX522k, which seems to be highly regarded as an excellent electronic kit by the many reviews I've read. But I also feel that an acoustic kit might be best for a beginner.

My situation is that I live in a household with 3 others and the only way I could play acoustic is if I build a small room (like 8 x 8 ) in the basement, which I could easily do, but it would cost about 500 to 600$ in materials. this would leave me only a few hundred bucks to buy a beginner acoustic set. Maybe something like this:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/drums...piece-drum-set

So, my question is would it be better to have the higher end yamaha electronic, or the lower end acoustic?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-12-2017, 10:35 PM
tilopa108 tilopa108 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 8
Default Re: low-end beginner acoustic vs Yamaha DTX522k

Would also consider an acoustic to electronic conversion.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-12-2017, 11:13 PM
picodon's Avatar
picodon picodon is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: France
Posts: 659
Default Re: low-end beginner acoustic vs Yamaha DTX522k

What's your plan in the longer run? Play gigs? Then you probably want to go acoustic.
Play for yourself any time of the day? you can play an ekit day and night, or almost.
An ekit, especially the cheaper ones, is still a somewhat limited box of sounds. An akit is sooo much sexier... but you have to tune it and it takes up more space.
I used to play ekit but only on akit I had the feeling I was really learning to play drums. My two cents.
Much depends how well you can soundproof your room.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-12-2017, 11:46 PM
Odd-Arne Oseberg's Avatar
Odd-Arne Oseberg Odd-Arne Oseberg is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sykkylven, Møre og Romsdal, Norway
Posts: 2,958
Default Re: low-end beginner acoustic vs Yamaha DTX522k

There is the option of having an acoustic kit with something to lower the volume for time being.

Electronic kits are the fastest and easiest way to keep volume down, but if the goal is to play acoustic you need a real snare and cymbals. Realistically, better stuff than comes with that kit.

It becomes a question of what your short and long term goals are on the instrument.
__________________
So, kick drum...or...bass drum? I'll tell you what. If it's 18" or less, it's a FOOT TOM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-13-2017, 05:23 AM
bgood bgood is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 23
Default Re: low-end beginner acoustic vs Yamaha DTX522k

I ended up with both. Yamaha 562k and Sonor Martini. I tried just the Sonor with mesh and Ddrum triggers into a Ddrum module and EZdrummer. It was pretty good but I really wanted an acoustic kit as a beginner to learn properly. So I converted it back and bought the Yamaha for a quiet practice option.

Be careful. I've since bought a Sonor Bop kit and Zildjian Gen16 cymbals for the Yamaha, I hated the plastic cymbals....... been in lessons for two years now and totally hooked and inspired. I'm a guitarist of 30 years. Drum GAS is just as bad as guitar GAS
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-13-2017, 05:35 AM
tilopa108 tilopa108 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 8
Default Re: low-end beginner acoustic vs Yamaha DTX522k

Thanks for the feedback.

In terms of my goals, I don't see myself playing gigs, or in a band anytime soon, but in a few years or so, as I get good enough, then yes I may like to do that. But for the short term (next few years), my goal is to really learn rhythm. In other words, to learn to play the drums, regardless of musical style (rock, jazz, etc.), with a goal to really learning to feel, "understand", and play rhythmically.

I know that probably sounds strange to put it that way. But I started playing guitar about 7 years ago and gave up on it after a few years. later I realized that what was lacking in my playing, and what made my playing robotic and non-musical, was that I did not have a good (innate) sense of rhythm. I know I don't need to learn the drums just to learn to have a good sense of rhythm, but I am feeling moved to learn the drums at this time, and I am appreciating more the importance of drums in music

So that is my main goal as a beginning drummer, to learn rhythm. But I want to also learn the drums well from the beginning so I don't have to go back and unlearn bad habits or whatever, because I don't know where my drumming, if I stick with it will take me. So, I'm concerned if I start on electronic then I may not learn properly from the beginning. Is this a mistaken view of electronic drums?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-13-2017, 03:44 PM
Odd-Arne Oseberg's Avatar
Odd-Arne Oseberg Odd-Arne Oseberg is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sykkylven, Møre og Romsdal, Norway
Posts: 2,958
Default Re: low-end beginner acoustic vs Yamaha DTX522k

Well, you can build a good set of fundamentals with pads. It's ofte more about inspiration. I tire of digital kits in minutes, so it's never been an option for me.

When I started playing I basically had a RealFeel pad, a double pedal and a borrowed hi-hat stand at home. In addition I had access to the acoustic kit at the school I worked at, so I used that early mornings and weekends.

These days I have a practice room where my acoustic kit is, but I also have a practice kit at home made up of Zildjian L80 and Aquarian Super pads. I can technically replicate anything and it feels the same.


I think just being aware of the options is the thing as all our situations are unique.

One thing about a digital kit is that it's a package. You can add a pad or two, but you're generally stuck with what you have.

Acoustic kits are offcourse completely modular by nature and you can sometimes change a lot with very little . e.g. $30 cowbell.


Like you I was a guitar player first. Educated as such. Because of that I had a full perspective, I was also getting into this to be a qualified teacher, so I didn't mind going the traditional route. I worked mainly on the pad and when I was at the kit it was mainly working the bassdrum with some basic ostinatos.

If you're playing softer jazz or working brushes your surroundings probably wouldn't mind. You can talk over that. Heavy rock drumming though is more like 140 db situation.

All the old greats worked on very basic stuff for a long time. The greatest evolution is really pads that both feel good and are quiet. It's completely valid way to go, I didn't mind it, but if that kills the inspiration for you then someting inbetween is maybe better.

If funds are lacking it always makes sense to do smart investments. Either things you know you will keep and have a use for also in the future or stuff where you can get most of your money back if you sell.

If you buy a cheap acoustic kit you will probably want to change out the snare fairly quickly.

You can do a lot with just a snare, hi-hat, ride and bassdrum. You can get basic cymbals and a used bassdrum almost for free and upgrade gradually. A nice throne, good working pedals and decent snare is where i started.
__________________
So, kick drum...or...bass drum? I'll tell you what. If it's 18" or less, it's a FOOT TOM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-13-2017, 10:56 PM
tilopa108 tilopa108 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 8
Default Re: low-end beginner acoustic vs Yamaha DTX522k

Interesting ideas. I started to put together some inexpensive components to see if I could piece together a starter kit that could be made quite for a reasonable price. And, as you said, buying things with an eye for resale value so I can upgrade later, but actually not sure if these items have good resale value.

Snare stand = $58
Evans practice pad = $34 (is this really going to feel like a snare drum?)

or

Real 14" snare drum with silent head
snare drum = $46 (this got great reviews, but concerned it is too cheap)
https://www.amazon.com/Griffin-Snare...ct_top?ie=UTF8

Remo silent stroke mesh drum heads 14" = $15

Hihat stand = $70
14" hihat cymbal pair = $70
20" ride cymbal = $60
ride cymbal stand = $40
cymbal silencer/dampeners = $30
Having trouble finding an inexpensive base drum, have to look on CL or ebay for that.

So, for about $400 that gives me snare, HH, and Ride. If I can find a cheap used base, with the remo silent stroke and pedal then this is a workable starter kit I believe.

My big question is will the remo silent mesh heads and the cymbal dampeners make this quite enough to play in a house with others? Are there better products out there that make an acoustic set even quieter without compromising feel? I looked at the L80 cymbals but they are too expensive for me at this time. I looked at the Aquarian super-pads but they are a little pricey also. Are they much better than the Remo's?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-13-2017, 11:17 PM
Galaxy Galaxy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 103
Default Re: low-end beginner acoustic vs Yamaha DTX522k

If I were in your situation, I would find a decent used acoustic kit for as cheap as possible for you to still be happy with it. I hate buying used stuff that needs work,but if you have more time than money and can fix things yourself,that would save a good amount. I am not a fan of electronic kits at all so that wouldn't even be an option for me.

To quiet them down,you could buy fancy things made to do that or find some old mouse pads and lay them on the heads for when your roommates are home. Throw a T shirt over the cymbals or use some easily removable tape, and tape some of that rubbery stuff people line cabinets with to them. If you find that you are home alone one day,take them off and jam!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-13-2017, 11:39 PM
Odd-Arne Oseberg's Avatar
Odd-Arne Oseberg Odd-Arne Oseberg is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sykkylven, Møre og Romsdal, Norway
Posts: 2,958
Default Re: low-end beginner acoustic vs Yamaha DTX522k

Silent Strokes will dampen plenty. All the products will take 80-90% except for stick sound on metal which is what it is. Silent Strokes are mesh heads, like on an electronic kit, which is why I've gone the route I have. They pretty much feel like trampoline, but I believe this is somewhere we'll see a lot of development in coming years, as this is a reality most people have to deal with.

This is just how I do it. I have a regular kit that I can play except for early in the morning and late at night.

For the most part my silent kit is bass drum pad(I modified mine, but they work as they are), one pad, ride and hi-hat.

If you want to save money on hardware, you'll get way better and more durable stuff second hand. That goes for everything really.

It's just making you aware of options.

Building a box will not do much for a bass drum. It's both low pitched and creates a lot of vibration.


The Evans practice pad(former HQ Real Feel) is what may of us have used for years. The best feeling ones are the old Remo pads(they just really really loud) and the Super Pads. The Pro Logix pads get a lot of good reviews too and there are several to choose from.

Really good hardware and decent cymbals cost a lot, which is why I say just look around. There's plenty of used kits around that people almost give away and unless there's something really wrong you put on some new heads, tune them up and it's probably not bad.
__________________
So, kick drum...or...bass drum? I'll tell you what. If it's 18" or less, it's a FOOT TOM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-13-2017, 11:51 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 3,801
Default Re: low-end beginner acoustic vs Yamaha DTX522k

Try to get the real drums if you can. Learning to make a sound on a real instrument is as important as any other thing in drumming, and you can't really do that when you have an electronic device playing a perfect, sampled drum sound, with the volume set by turning a knob. Hopefully you'll want to play with people and play out at some point soon, and you'll need the acoustic drumset for that.

Maybe you can work out a schedule with your roommates so you can play when they're not home, save yourself some carpentry-- which probably won't be 100% effective anyway. And do buy used.
__________________
Visit Cruise Ship Drummer! - a drumming blog | 2017 CSD! Book of the Blog now available
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-14-2017, 06:16 PM
tilopa108 tilopa108 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 8
Default Re: low-end beginner acoustic vs Yamaha DTX522k

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
Learning to make a sound on a real instrument is as important as any other thing in drumming, and you can't really do that when you have an electronic device playing a perfect, sampled drum sound, with the volume set by turning a knob.
Excellent point which I had not fully considered.

I've come to some firm conclusions.

1. I will not be getting electronic drums at this time. It just does not feel right for what I want to accomplish.
2. I won't be building a soundproof room. I've looked into it more and to really do it right it would cost about double what I originally thought, so I don't want to put $1000 into a room when I could use that for gear.

The other thing is that of my 3 roommates 2 of them work from home and the other has flexible hours. And I'm the kind of person that needs a consistent practice schedule, preferably in the morning. I'm in a difficult situation, most would probably say my only hope is electronic drums. But I feel like if I could put together a practice setup that is 80 to 90 percent reduced noise from a regular kit that would work.

So, now I'm looking for advice on the quietest heads/pads and cymbals that have the most realistic feel.

- Remo Silent Stroke mesh heads - reviews are saying they feels like trampolines, which obviously is not a realistic feel so I would like to avoid these, otherwise I might as well just get electronic.

- Aquarian super-pads - seem to have a realistic feel but very loud.

- Prologix pads - anyone know how these are in terms of feel and loudness?

For cymbals do these products actually work:

https://www.amazon.com/Cymbomute-WID...ymbal+dampener

https://www.amazon.com/SoundOff-Evan...ymbal+dampener
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-14-2017, 10:14 PM
Someone's Dad Someone's Dad is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 102
Default Re: low-end beginner acoustic vs Yamaha DTX522k

Can't speak for the springiness of Silent Strokes or the loudness of Aquarian Superpads. But these aren't criticisms that I've heard about either product.

My boy uses Pearl mesh heads and has them tuned low for "feel" rather than sound. The same should be possible with the Silent Strokes.

Cymbal mutes will reduce sound, no doubt. But the sound they leave you with is limited and the techniques that you can effectively practice are similarly limited.

Don't know what your budget is, but I'd say that the LV80s are the most important part of a quiet practice kit. The bass pedal and hihat stand come next. The drums are least important. Buy the cheapest second hand drums you can find - by the time that you mute them, the sound is only ever going to be functional.

Low volume solutions for drums aren't really quiet, but they can limit the volume to a room, rather than the whole house or beyond.

They've been a fantastic enabler for my boy. He's been playing for 18 months now and is studying for Grade 5. That's great progress and down to the amount of time he puts in practicing. Couldn't fit it an extra 30 minutes first thing in the morning or last thing at night with a regular kit.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-14-2017, 11:12 PM
Odd-Arne Oseberg's Avatar
Odd-Arne Oseberg Odd-Arne Oseberg is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sykkylven, Møre og Romsdal, Norway
Posts: 2,958
Default Re: low-end beginner acoustic vs Yamaha DTX522k

Super Pads are not loud. As dampers they reduce the sound by 80-90%. On their own they're even quieter and very low pitched.

A mesh head is a mesh head so it's springy by nature.

Mounted loosely a Super pad actually gives the natural medium tune pitch of that tom size.

Maybe you could get A Super Pad on a snare and then throw mesh heads on the toms. That would make it possible to play brushes. I'd probably stick with plastic brushes on a pad like that.

RTOM makes the new Black Holes which practically are somewhere inbetween. You lay them on top so they go on and off easily. They're mesh, but the "dot" in the middle is to make the rebound more realistic.

Cymbals mutes work, but don't expect any real cymbal sound. It will be a completely dead "clank".

L80s are a luxury. People have lived without things like that forever, but for a real playing experience it's the only option. A ride and hats will get you pretty far. They're finally available individually now.
__________________
So, kick drum...or...bass drum? I'll tell you what. If it's 18" or less, it's a FOOT TOM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-15-2017, 09:15 PM
tilopa108 tilopa108 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 8
Default Re: low-end beginner acoustic vs Yamaha DTX522k

Thanks for all the feedback.

Here is what I have decided. I'm looking at getting a cheap set of 4 or 5 piece shells, preferably with hardware, on craigslist for around $200. There are a few for sale now.

Then, I'll by a good HH stand for around $75, a snare stand for $50, ride stand for $40. By the L80 20" ride for $130, the L80 HH for $100.

I've decided I need to save some money and get the Remo Silent Stroke for $15 each. Later I could upgrade to the RTOM black holes if they turn out to be as good as claimed, they are too new and too expensive right now. Down the road I might get the Super-Pads for snare just to compare them.

So, for about $650 I'll have a pretty good practice kit. I feel like this is a good way to go as a beginner. When I get better then I will look into getting a better set of drums for gigging.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-18-2017, 12:01 AM
drumnhands drumnhands is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pomona, CA
Posts: 65
Default Re: low-end beginner acoustic vs Yamaha DTX522k

Here's my two cents. Silent Stroke heads, etc. aren't going to develop your hand technique or ability to play with dynamics, or to pull a variety of sounds out of a given drum. If you're just starting out, the most important skills to develop are good time, dynamics, "feel"(note placement within the beat at a given tempo), musicality, and different styles of grooves(shuffle, swing, etc.). The DTX kit will give you what you need to accomplish this, and you can play it whenever you want. The silicone pad feels closer to an acoustic snare than a mesh head(doesn't feel like a tennis racquet). The pads are all velocity sensitive, so your dynamic control(or lack thereof) will come though. The 502 module has several great training tools. A programmable metronome that will let you set pretty much any subdivision and time signature you'll need to work on. There are tools to show if you are indeed playing on, ahead of, or behind the click. There's a function called Rhythm Gate that will mute any hit, on any pad that is out of time and you can adjust the margin of error for playing different feels. This is a great way to make sure your quarter, eighth, and sixteenth notes are evenly spaced, and that your hands AND feet are playing in time. Measure break lets you know if you rush or drag your fills. There are internal songs you can play along with that allow you to play with a pre recorded drum track or mute it and just play along with the song. You can run your phone/music device through the aux in and play along with your favorite music. There is a free App for iPhone or iPad that lets you do all your programming from that device, making kit editing really simple. All these basic, yet most important skills can be learned very well on an electronic kit.

Once you get to the point where you can play an acoustic kit where you live, the 502 module can be the basis of a hybrid kit where you incorporate electronics into your kit, and you can put triggers on your drums (kick and snare are a great place to start). This is great for playing covers where you want to mimic as close as you can the sounds from a given record. You can use the pads with your kit to trigger loops and effects sounds. The keyboard and guitar players are already doing that, this is your way of doing it too. You can even import samples into the module to expand the sounds available to you.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-18-2017, 03:06 AM
Someone's Dad Someone's Dad is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 102
Default Re: low-end beginner acoustic vs Yamaha DTX522k

Quote:
Originally Posted by drumnhands View Post
Here's my two cents. Silent Stroke heads, etc. aren't going to develop your hand technique or ability to play with dynamics, or to pull a variety of sounds out of a given drum.
Com'on, that's simply not true. Mesh heads definitely allow you to develop both hand technique and dynamics - maybe you can explain why you think they don't? Your comparison of mesh heads to a tennis racket is more than a little disingenuous - you can easily lower the tension to remove any excessive springiness. And there are other non-mesh alternatives available like the Aquarian Superpads.
I appreciate that you want to recommend the products that you sell at Yamaha, but the best advice for anyone weighing up an electric drum set against a low volume acoustic solution is to head to a music store and try both for themselves.
I'm sure that an electronic kit is the right answer for some, but the joy of playing on an acoustic kit is going to win out for others. And low-volume solutions won't diminish that.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 03-20-2017, 12:08 AM
mikel mikel is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Midlands. England.
Posts: 2,237
Default Re: low-end beginner acoustic vs Yamaha DTX522k

I practice with mesh heads and they are much better than using rubber e-kit heads. I can still develop hand articulation and dynamics, but at a much lower volume. I use a Tama tension watch to get the same tension as my tuned acoustic kit. Job done.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com