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  #41  
Old 02-17-2017, 12:30 PM
Ghostnote
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Default Re: Kick Drum Miking Question

Here's a picture of the mic position we used that gave us excellent results using a D6. As you can see, it's no more than 2 inches away from the head and about 4" off the rim, so I don't understand all these posts suggesting that you must mic the drum at a distance.
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  #42  
Old 02-17-2017, 04:01 PM
The SunDog
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Default Re: Kick Drum Miking Question

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Originally Posted by funkutron View Post
"Goofy?" Well, I wish I had invented the bloody thing (Kick Port, that is....) I'd be RICH! They really do work, they concentrate the lows coming out of the port.

I get it. Like in the days before microphones people would use a cone to amplify there voice. Old phonographs work the sme way. It's the same trick and kind of gimmicky. Those frequencies are there, the kick port just makes them more audible to you. A microphone doesn't need a Kick-Port to hear these frequencies. This all lends itself to my earlier point. There are artificial sub frequencies created at the port. Porting and placing the mic just inside is an excellent technique.
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  #43  
Old 02-17-2017, 05:33 PM
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Default Re: Kick Drum Miking Question

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Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
For that particular mic ;-)

Out of curiosity, which KBM412 do you have?

Frequency Response:25Hz - 15 kHz Sensitivity:-85 dB
or
Frequency Response:30Hz 12KHz Sensitivity:-66 dBV
I'm not sure as its not listed on the site page with the package deal. Although the kick mic only page on MF lists it as 25HZ - 15K.

I did find some reviews of the kick mic that coincide with my experience. Here's part of one.....

"The CAD KBM412 mic sounds fairly good at further distances from the drum head. Placement is critical as this mic distorts under the higher SPL's that do not bother top of the line kick mics."

So there ya go. This mic likes to be placed further away. And I can certainly agree with that.
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  #44  
Old 02-17-2017, 07:37 PM
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Default Re: Kick Drum Miking Question

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Originally Posted by Ghostnote View Post
Here's a picture of the mic position we used that gave us excellent results using a D6. As you can see, it's no more than 2 inches away from the head and about 4" off the rim, so I don't understand all these posts suggesting that you must mic the drum at a distance.
Well, think about it. If a mike is in the port of a ported head, it's quite a ways from the batter head, as deep as the drum shell is, really. So if it's two inches from the reso, and you whack the drum really hard, the diaphragm of the mike can and has been known to bottom out, causing a "clicky" type of distortion.
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  #45  
Old 02-17-2017, 08:15 PM
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Default Re: Kick Drum Miking Question

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Originally Posted by funkutron View Post
Well, think about it. If a mike is in the port of a ported head, it's quite a ways from the batter head, as deep as the drum shell is, really. So if it's two inches from the reso, and you whack the drum really hard, the diaphragm of the mike can and has been known to bottom out, causing a "clicky" type of distortion.
That hasn't been my experience. All the energy is generated from the batter head. If the gain is set correctly and the mic is designed for appropriate SPLs, distance from the reso affects quality of sound but won't cause a mic to "bottom out." I've only used dynamic mics designed for high SPLs, like the D6, SM57, and B52, but you can literally put them all within a fraction of an inch of the reso if you want.

I'm confused by your statements.
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  #46  
Old 02-17-2017, 09:22 PM
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Default Re: Kick Drum Miking Question

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Originally Posted by funkutron View Post
Well, think about it. If a mike is in the port of a ported head, it's quite a ways from the batter head, as deep as the drum shell is, really. So if it's two inches from the reso, and you whack the drum really hard, the diaphragm of the mike can and has been known to bottom out, causing a "clicky" type of distortion.
Yeah well, like I said, we didn't experience any of that and the mic was 2" from the reso...
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  #47  
Old 02-17-2017, 10:00 PM
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Default Re: Kick Drum Miking Question

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Originally Posted by Ghostnote View Post
Yeah well, like I said, we didn't experience any of that and the mic was 2" from the reso...
If I placed my kick mic 2" from the reso, it might blow up. LOL! All I'd be hearing would be snap, crackle, pop. Well, maybe not much crackle, but certainly a ton of snap and pop.

This CAD mic needs to be set back a minimum of 10" to sound good. Today I moved it in a little to about 10" and the sound is about the same as 12" - 14" with a bit more beater punch.

I might experiment with a third condenser out in front of the kit this weekend at different distances and heights. I have two more AT2020's in my office so can just use one of those with an extra stand I have. It'll be interesting.
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  #48  
Old 02-18-2017, 04:29 AM
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Default Re: Kick Drum Miking Question

Love to get this thread on to some useful tips, so I'll pose a simple question. Do you mic the reso side of other drums. Don't say snare! We know that is combined with a mic on the batter. The short answer is no. So, for you purists that insist on an unported bass drum reso, what do you reasonably expect. Do you expect to get what you hear from recordings, or what you hear in your head? Don't tell me you expect the mic to pick up what you hear in the room. A microphone hears things you don't, and in a way that you don't. Cut a hole in the reso and stick the mic inside already! It's not rocket science and you are not going to reinvent the wheel. Inside the bass drum is where it sounds the best and yields consistently the best results. Good luck fighting with that.
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  #49  
Old 02-18-2017, 04:46 AM
KamaK KamaK is offline
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Default Re: Kick Drum Miking Question

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Originally Posted by The SunDog View Post
So, for you purists that insist on an unported bass drum reso, what do you reasonably expect.
I expect my overheads to pick up the sound of the BD Beater. ;-)

When I have the e602 on the reso side, it's to pick up the part of the drum that the two AT2020's sitting behind the kit don't capture. And it sounds fan-f'ing-tastic put together in a studio setting.

On the flip side

This is pretty much why you need to port live, or close-mic both sides. Overheads won't cut it on stage. We want the click of the beater, the contoured decay of the reso, and the ability to mix the two. Porting lets us do it with a single mic, and no polarity flipping poopenanny.
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  #50  
Old 02-18-2017, 05:34 AM
WallyY WallyY is offline
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Default Re: Kick Drum Miking Question

Everything depends on the local variables.
There is no mic placement style that works best everywhere.

Lots of situations are conducive to using a full head as long as it's understood what's wanted in the recording and how to play that boom. I wouldn't be too complex on an open kick because it might crowd the other instruments. It definitely hogs a lot of low end. I'd definitely throw out the superfluous hits.

I'm finding the most difficult aspect of recording drums is getting up from the seat, moving the mics a few inches and trying again. It get tedious hitting a few drums, listening, moving the mics and repeating, all the while wanting to just sit at the drums and shed. It throws off your mojo.
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  #51  
Old 02-18-2017, 05:35 AM
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Default Re: Kick Drum Miking Question

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Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
I expect my overheads to pick up the sound of the BD Beater. ;-)

When I have the e602 on the reso side, it's to pick up the part of the drum that the two AT2020's sitting behind the kit don't capture. And it sounds fan-f'ing-tastic put together in a studio setting.

On the flip side

This is pretty much why you need to port live, or close-mic both sides. Overheads won't cut it on stage. We want the click of the beater, the contoured decay of the reso, and the ability to mix the two. Porting lets us do it with a single mic, and no polarity flipping poopenanny.

I learned my technique from a man who has over sixty major label engineering credits. Several of which are on Queens of the Stone Age albums. Hate to name drop, but nobody seems to respect anything else. The fact is, you are not getting the best possible results your way. Ultimately I'd tell you to have a mic on every drum (inside on the kick) one on the ride, one on the hat, two overhead, and three room mics for proximity. The OP has a single CAD for the bass drum. He should mic inside. I don't care what setting you're in, or how "good" you think your results have been. Inside will yield better results. Again, good luck trying to fight with that. I've done this thousands of times and at an extremely high level, and I'm trying to give a guy the best advice that I can. You've learned how to make good recordings with other methods. Good for you. The fact is, the simplest way for the OP to get better results is to port and internally mic. In the time that it took to have all of this discussion, he could have cut the head and gotten his desired results already.
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  #52  
Old 02-18-2017, 06:00 AM
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Default Re: Kick Drum Miking Question

Ummm, the OP has already gotten better results than he was getting, AND has ordered a ported head to try.

Why fuss about the discussion?

Seems like things are progressing smoothly.
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  #53  
Old 02-18-2017, 06:33 AM
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Default Re: Kick Drum Miking Question

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Originally Posted by IDDrummer View Post
Ummm, the OP has already gotten better results than he was getting, AND has ordered a ported head to try.

Why fuss about the discussion?

Seems like things are progressing smoothly.
Bahahahahahaha. Nothing progresses smoothly around here.
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  #54  
Old 02-18-2017, 06:35 AM
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Default Re: Kick Drum Miking Question

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Originally Posted by The SunDog View Post
I learned my technique from a man who has over sixty major label engineering credits. Several of which are on Queens of the Stone Age albums. Hate to name drop, but nobody seems to respect anything else. The fact is, you are not getting the best possible results your way. Ultimately I'd tell you to have a mic on every drum (inside on the kick) one on the ride, one on the hat, two overhead, and three room mics for proximity. The OP has a single CAD for the bass drum. He should mic inside. I don't care what setting you're in, or how "good" you think your results have been. Inside will yield better results. Again, good luck trying to fight with that. I've done this thousands of times and at an extremely high level, and I'm trying to give a guy the best advice that I can. You've learned how to make good recordings with other methods. Good for you. The fact is, the simplest way for the OP to get better results is to port and internally mic. In the time that it took to have all of this discussion, he could have cut the head and gotten his desired results already.
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  #55  
Old 02-18-2017, 06:41 AM
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Bahahahahahaha. Nothing progresses smoothly around here.
LOL!! Yeah, well. At least there is progress. Hehe!
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  #56  
Old 02-18-2017, 08:30 PM
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Default Re: Kick Drum Miking Question

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Originally Posted by IDDrummer View Post
That hasn't been my experience. All the energy is generated from the batter head. If the gain is set correctly and the mic is designed for appropriate SPLs, distance from the reso affects quality of sound but won't cause a mic to "bottom out." I've only used dynamic mics designed for high SPLs, like the D6, SM57, and B52, but you can literally put them all within a fraction of an inch of the reso if you want.

I'm confused by your statements.
I've seen it happen with a Shure Beta 52 I think it was, you know, the fat one designed for kicks, the one with the built in stand mount.
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  #57  
Old 02-18-2017, 08:52 PM
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Default Re: Kick Drum Miking Question

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Originally Posted by funkutron View Post
I've seen it happen with a Shure Beta 52 I think it was, you know, the fat one designed for kicks, the one with the built in stand mount.
Interesting. I've used that mic but never had that happen.

Goes to show, you don't ever know. that's why I try stuff on my own, despite conventional wisdom! :)
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  #58  
Old 02-18-2017, 09:12 PM
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Default Re: Kick Drum Miking Question

That shouldn't happen at all, even if the mic is placed right in front of the hole.
It sounds like something an Ebay knockoff would do.
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  #59  
Old 02-18-2017, 09:35 PM
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Default Re: Kick Drum Miking Question

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Originally Posted by Wally Young View Post
That shouldn't happen at all, even if the mic is placed right in front of the hole.
It sounds like something an Ebay knockoff would do.
Yeah, my experience has been that they are usable right at the beater, right at the reso, or anywhere in relation to the port. Different sounds, for sure, but the mic never choked up.

I'm not necessarily recommending those positions, just saying they didn't cause trouble for the mic.
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  #60  
Old 02-18-2017, 09:39 PM
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Default Re: Kick Drum Miking Question

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Originally Posted by Blisco View Post
I run a D6 on a Shu mounted dead center and pointed at the beater. Absolutely slays our subwoofers. The consistency night after night is ridiculous. Any room, any temp, always ready for more. My 22" has a 4" port to access the short cord attached.

Head choice is paramount. I use an Emad and a DrumArt Aquarian Regulator reso. I've got center muffling on the reso where flutter can occur and I've got tone control on the batter where feel and give are critical.

Then a dogbone pillow not touching the heads to absorb reflections. I can take this formula to nearly any size and depth bass drum with near instant success.
I've got the same kick mic and setup except I don't own a Shu yet and I use a SKII batter/Regulator'd Drumart head. If you have time can you post a pic or two to me how the Shu mount is setup and how the cord for the mic gets plugged in?
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  #61  
Old 02-18-2017, 09:54 PM
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Default Re: Kick Drum Miking Question

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Originally Posted by Trip McNealy View Post
I've got the same kick mic and setup except I don't own a Shu yet and I use a SKII batter/Regulator'd Drumart head. If you have time can you post a pic or two to me how the Shu mount is setup and how the cord for the mic gets plugged in?
I use a similar setup. Will post pics when I get home. I installed and XLR jack in the shell, but you can run the cord through a port or the vent hole.
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  #62  
Old 02-19-2017, 12:59 AM
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Default Re: Kick Drum Miking Question

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Originally Posted by mike d View Post
I'm curious about this method too. That's what I used to do years ago, but haven't mic'd for a while. Anyone using batter side only mic?
It's the way I go by default when I mic my own drums. Sound guys will usually mic the reso head, even though there's no port. It makes sense to me -- I would never mic a tom on the reso side.
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  #63  
Old 02-19-2017, 01:40 AM
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Originally Posted by dcolter View Post
It's the way I go by default when I mic my own drums. Sound guys will usually mic the reso head, even though there's no port. It makes sense to me -- I would never mic a tom on the reso side.
Some guys only mic the reso head.
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  #64  
Old 02-19-2017, 03:21 AM
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Default Re: Kick Drum Miking Question

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Originally Posted by Trip McNealy View Post
I've got the same kick mic and setup except I don't own a Shu yet and I use a SKII batter/Regulator'd Drumart head. If you have time can you post a pic or two to me how the Shu mount is setup and how the cord for the mic gets plugged in?
This is my basic setup. If you don't want to drill the shell for the XLR jack, you can use a ported reso and run the cord in that way, or you cut the end off a cord, thread it through the vent hole, then re-solder the connector in place. I used that method for a few years before I installed that jack. It worked great, but you had to mind the cord when putting the drum into/out of cases. The jack makes life amazingly simple. Perfect live setup, IMO.
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  #65  
Old 02-19-2017, 04:01 PM
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Default Re: Kick Drum Miking Question

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Originally Posted by dcolter View Post
It's the way I go by default when I mic my own drums. Sound guys will usually mic the reso head, even though there's no port. It makes sense to me -- I would never mic a tom on the reso side.
I have been micing the batter side for years; always had good results. There were initial concerns about picking up possible noise from the pedal but I have never noticed any.
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  #66  
Old 02-19-2017, 07:24 PM
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There were initial concerns about picking up possible noise from the pedal but I have never noticed any.
Very superstitious...... ;-)
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  #67  
Old 02-19-2017, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by IDDrummer View Post
This is my basic setup. If you don't want to drill the shell for the XLR jack, you can use a ported reso and run the cord in that way, or you cut the end off a cord, thread it through the vent hole, then re-solder the connector in place. I used that method for a few years before I installed that jack. It worked great, but you had to mind the cord when putting the drum into/out of cases. The jack makes life amazingly simple. Perfect live setup, IMO.
This will be my eventual setup when I can afford to do so. Kinda takes the sound man getting pissed when you show up for a gig with a full front head thing out of the equation.
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  #68  
Old 02-19-2017, 11:12 PM
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This will be my eventual setup when I can afford to do so. Kinda takes the sound man getting pissed when you show up for a gig with a full front head thing out of the equation.
Yeah, I've played some of the bigger venues in Spokane (nearest city-ish area, lol) and the sound guys give you a sideways look when you show up unported. Show 'em the jack, ask to plug you in and give it a try, and there has never been a problem. Even the adamant port guys have been satisfied.

99% of the time we ran our own sound, and it just made life super easy there, too.
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  #69  
Old 02-20-2017, 01:25 AM
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Very superstitious...... ;-)

Great song.......maybe it's my ears! :)
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  #70  
Old 02-20-2017, 04:19 AM
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Yeah, I've played some of the bigger venues in Spokane (nearest city-ish area, lol) and the sound guys give you a sideways look when you show up unported. Show 'em the jack, ask to plug you in and give it a try, and there has never been a problem. Even the adamant port guys have been satisfied.

99% of the time we ran our own sound, and it just made life super easy there, too.
Do you find you get enough attack with the Shue mounted close to the reso? I was wondering about that and maybe considering a May for the front to back adjustability, but the May is a lot more expensive.
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  #71  
Old 02-20-2017, 05:20 AM
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Do you find you get enough attack with the Shue mounted close to the reso? I was wondering about that and maybe considering a May for the front to back adjustability, but the May is a lot more expensive.
Yes, I've been able to get enough attack. The Shu has a couple inches of front to back adjustability, and you can mount it to the reso or batter side lug screws. So, there is a fair amount of flexibility in placement, though it certainly isn't infinite.

I've had opportunities to hear my kit FOH and the kick is exactly what I hope for.

EDIT - this was recorded on a cheap old handycam and the sound isn't fantastic, but this will give you an idea of how the Shu setup sounds live.
https://youtu.be/W5pYySRbFaE
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  #72  
Old 02-20-2017, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by IDDrummer View Post
Yeah, I've played some of the bigger venues in Spokane (nearest city-ish area, lol) and the sound guys give you a sideways look when you show up unported. Show 'em the jack, ask to plug you in and give it a try, and there has never been a problem. Even the adamant port guys have been satisfied.

99% of the time we ran our own sound, and it just made life super easy there, too.
You're in SPOKANE!? So am I! Who are you? Maybe you'd like to try one of my pedals! Right now I play in YESTERDAYSCAKE. We just played Curley's!
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  #73  
Old 02-20-2017, 07:39 PM
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You're in SPOKANE!? So am I! Who are you? Maybe you'd like to try one of my pedals! Right now I play in YESTERDAYSCAKE. We just played Curley's!
Well, I just saw you play then! Just didn't know it was you. Lol Nice playing!
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  #74  
Old 02-20-2017, 11:30 PM
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Well, I just saw you play then! Just didn't know it was you. Lol Nice playing!
Thanks! How can we get in touch? Is that allowed here?
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  #75  
Old 02-20-2017, 11:52 PM
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Thanks! How can we get in touch? Is that allowed here?
I'll PM when I'm off work. :)
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  #76  
Old 02-21-2017, 09:18 AM
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I'll PM when I'm off work. :)
I answered but I'm not seeing it as a sent message, so maybe I did it wrong, I'm kinda goofy that way...LOL!
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