DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > General Discussion

General Discussion General discussion forum for all drum related topics. Use this forum to exchange ideas and information with your fellow drummers.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1  
Old 02-06-2017, 10:11 PM
AModestRat's Avatar
AModestRat AModestRat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 60
Default Upgrading kit for church band, would like suggestions

Hello everyone. I play every Sunday at a small Baptist church with 5 other guys, and I am the main drum tech while sharing drumming duties with another drummer. They bought a PDP Mainstage kit (Sabian SBR cymbals and hardware too) some time ago, but they did not know how to properly care for it and it was terrible condition when I got there. I took it home for the week and am currently cleaning the shells (sanding the interiors and putting poly over teak oil as well as cleaning bad bearing edges) as well as spending time fixing them. The first thing we did was buy new heads (clear Remo Pinstripes on toms, clear Powerstroke 3 on the kick, and an Evans HD Dry on the snare) and I've been teaching them how to care for them and tune them, but we're looking towards the future.

For reference, the church is a modest sized one (50-100 max) and their budget is not very high. They'd like to start looking at a new kit alongside other instruments, and they turned to me.

I'm not very accustomed to gospel drumming (more blues-rock and jazz), so what would y'all recommend I go with? This isn't short-term, and we'll be investing over the next year or so.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-06-2017, 10:52 PM
alparrott's Avatar
alparrott alparrott is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Wenatchee, WA
Posts: 6,054
Default Re: Upgrading kit for church band, would like suggestions

Quote:
Originally Posted by AModestRat View Post
Hello everyone. I play every Sunday at a small Baptist church with 5 other guys, and I am the main drum tech while sharing drumming duties with another drummer. They bought a PDP Mainstage kit (Sabian SBR cymbals and hardware too) some time ago, but they did not know how to properly care for it and it was terrible condition when I got there. I took it home for the week and am currently cleaning the shells (sanding the interiors and putting poly over teak oil as well as cleaning bad bearing edges) as well as spending time fixing them. The first thing we did was buy new heads (clear Remo Pinstripes on toms, clear Powerstroke 3 on the kick, and an Evans HD Dry on the snare) and I've been teaching them how to care for them and tune them, but we're looking towards the future.

For reference, the church is a modest sized one (50-100 max) and their budget is not very high. They'd like to start looking at a new kit alongside other instruments, and they turned to me.

I'm not very accustomed to gospel drumming (more blues-rock and jazz), so what would y'all recommend I go with? This isn't short-term, and we'll be investing over the next year or so.
For now, I would not worry too much about replacing the toms and kick. With new, proper heads, they should serve you fine until you upgrade the cymbals, snare, and hardware (in that order).

For cymbals, you will probably want to look at getting a few good used cymbals. A safe bet would be Zildjian 14" New Beat hi-hats, a 16" and 18" crash from the A Zildjian line, and a 20" medium ride. If done carefully you might get all that for under $400. New, it might come close to twice that.

Next should be a snare. You might wish to look for used Ludwig Acrolites, Supraphonics, Mapex Black Panthers, Tama SLPs, Pearl Sensitone Elites, or a new Ludwig Supralite. 5x14 or 6.5x14 would be best; a deep 13" drum (like 7x13) would work. Ignore anything 12" or smaller.

Then look at hardware. I would recommend the Yamaha 700 series, or the Ludwig Atlas Standard series. Both have packages available for under $300.

If you are dead set on replacing the kit, you may want to see if there are floor models at any local music shops that they need to move (I once picked up a scuffed demo PDP X5 7-piece kit at 40% off the sale price doing this for one church). Also look at the used market, for sure. But as I said, replace the shells last - the sonic benefits of upgrading the snare and cymbals will be greater in the short term, and hardware is almost always lacking on budget sets like the Mainstage.
__________________
Al Parrott
"Jus suum cuique"
-------------------------------------------------------
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-06-2017, 11:27 PM
PorkPieGuy's Avatar
PorkPieGuy PorkPieGuy is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 2,017
Default Re: Upgrading kit for church band, would like suggestions

Churches are weird with buying stuff in that sometimes they want you to buy new so that there will be some sort of warranty in addition to appropriate receipts and whatnot.

As stated above, I'd start with some decent cymbals. Maybe go with some fast crashes in smaller sizes. I play in front of about 650 on Sundays, but they are split between three different services. I use A Custom Fast crashes (a 14" and a 15") and they are PLENTY loud.

Another thing to keep in mind is just because a drum is smaller doesn't mean that it's quieter. For example, when I first took my acoustic drums to church, I started with a 10" rack tom and a 14" floor. The 10" rack tom, while smaller" still has quite a bit of "cut." I ended up taking my 12" and my 16" toms, and it ended up sounding better. (Eventually, my 14" made it there as well.)

Best of luck!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-07-2017, 12:25 AM
Mongrel's Avatar
Mongrel Mongrel is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: South Jersey, USA
Posts: 712
Default Re: Upgrading kit for church band, would like suggestions

Couple thoughts to add to the good advice above...(remember you said "the budget is not very high")

I've been playing "church gigs" for over ten years on everything from a beautiful DW collectors kit to bottom line Tama Silverstars. Never have the kits been an issue. Heads and cymbals have always been much more important. Hardware has been a distant third... Low end shells with high end heads, high end cymbals, and medium grade hardware will carry further than high end shells and compromised cymbals every will.

1. That looks to be a reasonable kit and with proper heads and tuning should be the least of your worries. Even with a little wear and tear on them they should last you for years-as long as the youth pastor keeps the juvenile delinquents off them. Even the snare drum will suffice unless you or the other drummer are dissatisfied with it. In that case, do what I do-save the church the money and bring your own snare in. Let the "kids" bang on the house snare drum.

2. You already took care of the head issue-unless those Pinstripes don't work out. Then you will just have to experiment. I am having good luck (providence?) with Evans EC2s on a set of Tama Silverstars at the moment so keep them in mind.

3. Dump those SBRs yesterday. Tell the Board you will need $750 to $900 for new cymbals. Zildjian and Sabian both offer packages for around that price that will provide you with excellent hats, ride, and two crashes. We're talking As, A Custom, AA, AAX, and even Ks for that price. Just so happens Zildjian brought out several new packages for 2017 you may want to look at. The new "Country" package is made up of Ks and goes for (I think) $950. That gets you 15" K Light Hi-Hats, 17" K Dark Thin Crash, 19" K Dark Thin Crash, 20" K Crash Ride. Seems like a heck of a deal to me.

4. Hardware-even "cheap" PDP cymbal stands should be fine, especially in an environment that doesn't involve tearing down and setting up all the time. What you want are: A GREAT throne, bass drum pedal, hi-hat stand, and snare stand. Those will run you around $500 new. You could get significant discounts by going to eBay and Craigslist, but that will take more time and leg work than just ordering from Sweetwater or GC.

5. Accessories-consider a decent mountable tambourine, maybe a jam block, shakers, rods, brushes, spare heads, and several drum keys. Anything else you think may be good to have-djembe or cajon for example should be considered as well.

6. Now would be a good time to buy a plexi-glass screen if you think it may be something you will need, or a direction they have said they would like to go.

I have found it is better to aim high and ask for everything you may think you will need NOW rather than to go back and say...ahhh....erm..."we forgot". This way, even if they can't meet the need now, at least it's on their radar and they can't say "why didn't you tell us sooner?"

So, realistically you are in the $1500-$2000 ball park for the above, and that is without a shiny new drum kit. However, what you will have is an excellent sounding and playing drum kit that should be a blessing to the worship team, the congregation, and especially the DRUMMERS!

Ok, but we all know they are going to balk right? So, what you really need are those cymbals. Now, if you know the pedal is in bad shape or the hi-hat stand is in bad condition... Stick at $900, get your self a basic Zildjian A pack for $700 or a Sabian AA pack for around the same and spend the last little bit on a good pedal or hi-hat (or both).

That's my two bones...and God Bless your efforts!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-07-2017, 12:39 AM
Vintage Old School's Avatar
Vintage Old School Vintage Old School is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 904
Default Re: Upgrading kit for church band, would like suggestions

Is there a particular reason the church wants to replace the existing drums?
Are the bearing edges damaged?
Are they wanting to go with different sizes?
Are you mic'ing the drums?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-07-2017, 02:31 AM
Rosemarydrumco Rosemarydrumco is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 257
Default Re: Upgrading kit for church band, would like suggestions

Hey there.

I've had a ton of experience playing drums in churches, tech'ing for churches, running sound, etc...and I think some of the other posts are def on to something with the upgrade the kit last thinking,but what I am thinking is if you are in a church of 50-100 people, then the concern probably at the top of your list is probably volume.

There's a lot of people saying get some a customs or aax or whatever, but I actually think that's not a good idea, because realistically those are fairly thick cymbals, and very bright, and they are loud. Majority of the noise in that setting is going to come from your cymbals.

I'd get something thinner and a bit more mellow...maybe some k lights or medium thins...even if it means just doing a nice crash, ride, hat. That will help kind of tame the cymbals a bit.

I do think picking up something like an Acro is a great idea for your snare. Aluminum is a nice and dry sound that's not going to create a ton of issues for the sound man, and is relatively moderate on the volume.

Good luck!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-07-2017, 03:52 AM
AzHeat's Avatar
AzHeat AzHeat is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posts: 1,246
Default Re: Upgrading kit for church band, would like suggestions

I second the Ks. Sabian HH make great church cymbals too. We used to run A customs for a while and for praise and worship they are way too bright. The standar As would be a good choice as well, as mentioned, but I'll vote for the first two all day long.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-07-2017, 12:40 PM
Mongrel's Avatar
Mongrel Mongrel is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: South Jersey, USA
Posts: 712
Default Re: Upgrading kit for church band, would like suggestions

Re: Zildjian A Customs and Sabian AAX being too loud/bright/harsh...

Depends on the drummer, the sticks, and the rest of the team many times. Also, the size of the congregation may not have much to do with "volume levels". I've been in small loud churches and large quiet churches. Hard to know for sure by the original post.

I have had no issues using them with rod type sticks or low volume techniques. Much of todays worship tunes are played and recorded with "bright" cymbals and in my experience "bright" isn't necessarily a bad thing, but volume might be. Gospel, especially leans toward the "bright" side as does the more pop-oriented praise and worship music. I would add that the fast/thin crashes, splashes, and smaller lighter rides are what I have experince with so I will gladly concede the point...

I guess we could agree that Zildjian As and Ks and Sabian AA and HH would be good starting points. Thinner and lighter depending on volume.

As with the others, my preference is for Ks but I play with an all-acoustic team and they fit better.

Last edited by Mongrel; 02-07-2017 at 01:08 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-07-2017, 02:10 PM
AzHeat's Avatar
AzHeat AzHeat is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posts: 1,246
Default Re: Upgrading kit for church band, would like suggestions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongrel View Post
Re: Zildjian A Customs and Sabian AAX being too loud/bright/harsh...

Depends on the drummer, the sticks, and the rest of the team many times.
This is exactly where I was going with my comment, but failed to provide a good reason. You can't always control the drummer! However, when we switched to Ks, it was far easier to control cymbal volume. If your church is into Gospel Chops, then knock yourself out. It's all about the drum solo there anyway!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-07-2017, 07:36 PM
AModestRat's Avatar
AModestRat AModestRat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 60
Default Re: Upgrading kit for church band, would like suggestions

I appreciate y'all chipping in guys, my main issues with the kit revolve around the bearing edges and general shape of the kit. The church that had it before ours didn't treat it well and because of such there are a couple of issues:

- Bearing edges are pretty bad - chips, dents, flea bites on every drum. I'm doing my best to work with them (light sanding, beeswax, etc.) but it's my main concern at the moment
- They seem to have left it out to the elements, as there's dents and cracks in the wrap and inside the shells.
- The rims are bent because of their lack of knowledge of tuning. Even the bass drum hoops and snare hoops are slightly warped.

I've discovered all of this after I took the kit apart to clean it last night

All in all, instead of pouring more money into this kit, I've decided to ask if they can look for another used kit. I've started bringing my cymbals (14" New Orleans hats, 17" K Hybrid crash, 22" Impression Smooth ride) and I don't mind using them until we can afford new cymbals. While I agree that tuning and head choice is no. 1, this has legitimately been the hardest kit I've ever had to tune and I think that is largely in part due to the condition of the shells.

I had called the pastor this morning to see what they can do, and he said money is tight at the moment because of flood repairs but he will look into getting better funding for the upcoming months.

Last edited by AModestRat; 02-07-2017 at 07:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 02-07-2017, 08:02 PM
TK-421's Avatar
TK-421 TK-421 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 215
Default Re: Upgrading kit for church band, would like suggestions

Quote:
Originally Posted by AModestRat View Post
- They seem to have left it out to the elements, as there's dents and cracks in the wrap and inside the shells.

I had called the pastor this morning to see what they can do, and he said money is tight at the moment because of flood repairs but he will look into getting better funding for the upcoming months.
Based on your description of the shells and the fact that apparently there was a flood at the church, it makes me wonder if the kit was damaged by the flood. If so, perhaps it could be covered by the church's flood insurance.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-07-2017, 08:34 PM
Mongrel's Avatar
Mongrel Mongrel is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: South Jersey, USA
Posts: 712
Default Re: Upgrading kit for church band, would like suggestions

Quote:
Originally Posted by AModestRat View Post
I appreciate y'all chipping in guys, my main issues with the kit revolve around the bearing edges and general shape of the kit. The church that had it before ours didn't treat it well and because of such there are a couple of issues:

- Bearing edges are pretty bad - chips, dents, flea bites on every drum. I'm doing my best to work with them (light sanding, beeswax, etc.) but it's my main concern at the moment
- They seem to have left it out to the elements, as there's dents and cracks in the wrap and inside the shells.
- The rims are bent because of their lack of knowledge of tuning. Even the bass drum hoops and snare hoops are slightly warped.

I've discovered all of this after I took the kit apart to clean it last night

All in all, instead of pouring more money into this kit, I've decided to ask if they can look for another used kit. I've started bringing my cymbals (14" New Orleans hats, 17" K Hybrid crash, 22" Impression Smooth ride) and I don't mind using them until we can afford new cymbals. While I agree that tuning and head choice is no. 1, this has legitimately been the hardest kit I've ever had to tune and I think that is largely in part due to the condition of the shells.

I had called the pastor this morning to see what they can do, and he said money is tight at the moment because of flood repairs but he will look into getting better funding for the upcoming months.
Wow...ok, so that is quite a different story!

As long as you and they are good going used, I would venture that you could pick up a decent cragslist kit with hardware and at least a few cymbals for under a grand.... Or, you could ask around some local shops for "donations". One church I played at had a low mileage Premier 5 piece donated with a throne. I myself donated two Tama kits (Rockstar orphan kits) to a couple of churches. So it is not out of the question.

Also, I see a lot of old Rockstar level kits selling in the GC used gear section for under $400....
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-07-2017, 09:35 PM
alparrott's Avatar
alparrott alparrott is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Wenatchee, WA
Posts: 6,054
Default Re: Upgrading kit for church band, would like suggestions

With this new info in hand, I would agree that probably the shells need replacing. What's the budget available?

A good second-hand intermediate kit, such as a Yamaha Stage Custom, would be an excellent replacement.
__________________
Al Parrott
"Jus suum cuique"
-------------------------------------------------------
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-08-2017, 05:39 AM
Vintage Old School's Avatar
Vintage Old School Vintage Old School is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 904
Default Re: Upgrading kit for church band, would like suggestions

I was going to suggest you to consider having the bearing edges recut to save some money if the shells were overall in decent shape, but
based on the condition you found them to be in it's definitely time to move on.

I think everybody here has given you solid advice. As funds become available, buy what is most important first and slowly work down the list.

Keep us posted as things develop. Would like to see what gear you end up with.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com