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  #41  
Old 12-13-2016, 12:48 AM
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Pocket-full-of-gold Pocket-full-of-gold is offline
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

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Originally Posted by funkutron View Post

"Live fast, die young, and leave a good looking corpse" -(I think that quote was attributed to James Dean, but I'm not sure!)

Only because I was interested enough to look it up: http://www.thisdayinquotes.com/2010/...young-and.html
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  #42  
Old 12-13-2016, 01:38 AM
_Leviathan_ _Leviathan_ is offline
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

What makes me laugh about this is Lars can't even play what he physically did in the 80's now. Even the most recent album there are double bass parts that he skips live. He hasn't even done a proper bass-snare-bass-snare thrash beat in years. If he's so concerned about the effects of heavy playing, why not take a break from interviews to work on his technique or take a lesson or two?
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  #43  
Old 12-13-2016, 02:56 AM
Push pull stroke Push pull stroke is offline
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

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Originally Posted by _Leviathan_ View Post
What makes me laugh about this is Lars can't even play what he physically did in the 80's now. Even the most recent album there are double bass parts that he skips live. He hasn't even done a proper bass-snare-bass-snare thrash beat in years. If he's so concerned about the effects of heavy playing, why not take a break from interviews to work on his technique or take a lesson or two?
Because multi-millionaires don't have to practice. They're too good for such things.
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  #44  
Old 12-13-2016, 06:32 AM
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

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Originally Posted by Bull View Post
Benante has been having carpal tunnel issues for the past few years. He has missed several tours. Jon Dette, Jason Bittner, have been subbing for him. However,when he is playing he sounds better than ever.
Thanks Bull. I didn't recall that about Charlie, but it does make sense as I do remember reading about it when John Dette filled in a few years ago when Anthrax were last in Oz.

So I guess my two examples are proving rather feeble then. It would appear that Lombardo is indeed the exception, rather than the rule. Still, they're all a far cry from 70. It'll be interesting to see if they can all live up to their reputations in 20 years time.
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  #45  
Old 12-13-2016, 07:16 AM
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

This thread is fucking terrifying me, so thanks for that.

I'm going to keep telling myself that if I'm careful and try to play loose with good technique I can play till I die. I'm happy that way.
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  #46  
Old 12-13-2016, 11:45 AM
Woolwich Woolwich is offline
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

I've read the article and here are some of my thoughts on it and it's subject matter.

Firstly I found the tone of the opening paragraphs quite condescending towards older people and gave me the impression that the writer had made their mind up and was setting the scene.

Moving on to Lars Ulrich's discussion about older drummers, the bands he mentioned were-
Bob Dylan. Genuine question, has he had the same band for his whole career or have various musicians including drummers come and gone?
The Rolling Stones. Ironically of any musician on that bill Charlie Watts has overcome the most due to his diagnosis of throat cancer in 2004.
Neil Young. Ditto my Bob Dylan question.
Paul McCartney. As previously mentioned Ringo is still going strong. Paul McCartney has toured with Wings and as a solo artist so once again I would question the make ups of his band from year to year.
The Who. Keith Moon died so they were always going to have to bring in another drummer. Kenney Jones was one of their contemporaries and was with them for 10 years. Zak Starkey has been with them for 20 years and at the age of 51 I don't consider him old, but he's no spring chicken either. As an aside, being brought up around Rock Royalty and being taught even a little by Keith Moon I can't think of a better fit for the band anyway.
Roger Waters. Another solo artist whose "original drummer" Nick Mason is in rude health.

A question I ask about all of the above isn't how badly the drummers have fared, it's how well this lot with 50+ year careers in the music business have done to still be carrying on!

As for the other two (out of how many hundreds of "well known within the drumming community" other drummers), Phil Collins' health issues have been well documented and extend beyond his time on the drum stool. And correct me if I'm wrong but a lot of his time in the spotlight has been at the front of the stage, not slogging away at the back. Wasn't that left to Chester Thompson, who I believe to be in rude health?
Finally Neal Peart. Another man with an extremely long career (40+ years?) and whose music required an athleticism way above the norm. And he's 64! And again, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think he's decrepit but he's feeling the wear and stepping down while at the top of his game. Very few people at 64 can do the physical things they did as well as they did in their youth. To repeat an earlier point, it's not glass half empty because he's wound down, it's glass half full that he's done it right up until (what used to be) state pension age in the UK.


So while it's definitely interesting to discuss and learn about how other drummers have coped with ageing, pointing to the examples in the article is a red herring of massive proportions. Perhaps the discussion came out of Lars wanting to discuss something different as he's been talking to media worldwide on this promotional tour and just fancied a change.
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  #47  
Old 12-13-2016, 12:09 PM
Green Onions Green Onions is offline
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

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Originally Posted by Woolwich View Post
Moving on to Lars Ulrich's discussion about older drummers, the bands he mentioned were-
Bob Dylan. Genuine question, has he had the same band for his whole career or have various musicians including drummers come and gone?
The Rolling Stones. Ironically of any musician on that bill Charlie Watts has overcome the most due to his diagnosis of throat cancer in 2004.
Neil Young. Ditto my Bob Dylan question.
Paul McCartney. As previously mentioned Ringo is still going strong. Paul McCartney has toured with Wings and as a solo artist so once again I would question the make ups of his band from year to year.
The Who. Keith Moon died so they were always going to have to bring in another drummer. Kenney Jones was one of their contemporaries and was with them for 10 years. Zak Starkey has been with them for 20 years and at the age of 51 I don't consider him old, but he's no spring chicken either. As an aside, being brought up around Rock Royalty and being taught even a little by Keith Moon I can't think of a better fit for the band anyway.
Roger Waters. Another solo artist whose "original drummer" Nick Mason is in rude health.
I read through the entire thread hoping someone would point this out. The quote about “Did you notice the drummers? Only one of them was still an original.” was ridiculous since he was talking about four solo artists and two bands. There were only two "original drummers" among those six artists to begin with and one of them was dead, so, of course, only one of them was an original.

As an aside, Dylan's first drummer (besides the people he played with in high school) was Levon Helm. His second was Mickey Jones, who you may recognize from Sling Blade fame.
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  #48  
Old 12-13-2016, 03:31 PM
jornthedrummer jornthedrummer is offline
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

My claim is that it's more healthy, with ear protection and proper technique, to play drums than not to play drums. Both for the mind and the body.

Rock n roll lifestyle, lugging gear, etc. is another matter.

Thanks

Jorn
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  #49  
Old 12-13-2016, 04:56 PM
tcspears tcspears is offline
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

I'll admit that I don't know many rock drummers, but I know the drummer from the Who overdosed, John Bonham was drunk and choked, Neil Young's drummer stayed with the band the longest despite personnel changes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Molina)...


Roger Waters has been using the same drummer since the mid-80s (Graham Broad).


The article is drawing incorrect conclusions. The drummers that are dead, didn't die from drumming related injuries, they were abusing drugs and alcohol. The other drummers have a long history of playing with their front men, but those groups have had many personnel changes.


That's not to say that anything physical doesn't take it's toll on us. Even Keith Lockhart, the famous conductor of the BSO had to have shoulder surgery because of the stress that conducting puts on his body. It's the same with drummers, we can succumb to injuries from repetitive motion, or bad posture, et cetera...

To say that drummers suffer the health effects of a life on the road more than any other musician is pretty extreme.
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  #50  
Old 12-13-2016, 07:28 PM
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

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Originally Posted by Woolwich View Post
Bob Dylan. Genuine question, has he had the same band for his whole career or have various musicians including drummers come and gone?
Dylan doesn't tour or on a regular basis, and has had numerous drummers over the years.

Quote:
Neil Young. Ditto my Bob Dylan question.
I believe Young has had the same drummer. But to be fair, Young also does plenty of acoustic gigs sans band.


Quote:
Paul McCartney. As previously mentioned Ringo is still going strong. Paul McCartney has toured with Wings and as a solo artist so once again I would question the make ups of his band from year to year.
Yes, Ringo is going, but Ringo has Greg Bissonette as his main drummer. Ringo doesn't carry a show himself.

McCartney has had numerous drummers since leaving the Beatles. Although Abe Laboriel Jr. has been his only drummer live since 2001. And while Abe isn't a spring chicken either, he's 1/2 of Paul's' age.


Quote:
The Who. Keith Moon died so they were always going to have to bring in another drummer. Kenney Jones was one of their contemporaries and was with them for 10 years. Zak Starkey has been with them for 20 years and at the age of 51 I don't consider him old, but he's no spring chicken either.
True, but the point is Zak is the age of the Who's children, not their contemporary.
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  #51  
Old 12-13-2016, 08:27 PM
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

I am interested to read Nick Mason' s name on this thread.

Now am I ma be wrong here, but I am going to put my neck out on a limb. Pink Floyd are my all time fave band, I have seen then live and I am about as big a fanboy as you can get. But...

Nick Mason is no proper drummer. He was there from the beginning, and in his own words that I saw recently online when he was lecturing at a music school, he didn't know how to play the drums when he started with the band and had to learn quickly how to play just to back his friends in the band. He was never technical nor was he a die hard percussionist. He was in the right place at the right time, and fast forward 40 to 50 years now has a huge amount of experience playing Floyd songs - most of which are backing beats and/or oddly times silences or builds between musical phrases.

Don't get me wrong, he is very talented at what he does, which is producing the music of Floyd, but I don't see him developing concepts, being a dynamic drummer or doing anything out his comfort zone. Nobody is going to be a better Nick Mason than Nick Mason, but I am pretty sure many will be a better drummer than Nick Mason.

Maybe I am being harsh, but it is just how I see it. Having scrutinised a lot of his playing over the years and seen his live, his beats and fills are as basic as it gets and is just a necessity for the music, plus he never really looks that confident to me. There is a reason the live shows needed to bring in a percussionist. If you look at the last two tours, Pulse and Delicate Sound of Thunder, they used Gary Wallis throughout both tours as percussionist along with Mason. He had an arguably more complex setup and was essential for anything other than Mason's simple backing beats, of which there is a huge amount. Most of the dynamic sounds and percussion all comes form him leaping about his cage of drums and sounds whilst Mason sits comfortably dinging the ride on a 4/4 beat.
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  #52  
Old 12-13-2016, 09:32 PM
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

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Originally Posted by tcspears View Post
I'll admit that I don't know many rock drummers, but I know the drummer from the Who overdosed, John Bonham was drunk and choked, Neil Young's drummer stayed with the band the longest despite personnel changes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Molina)...


Roger Waters has been using the same drummer since the mid-80s (Graham Broad).


The article is drawing incorrect conclusions. The drummers that are dead, didn't die from drumming related injuries, they were abusing drugs and alcohol. The other drummers have a long history of playing with their front men, but those groups have had many personnel changes.


That's not to say that anything physical doesn't take it's toll on us. Even Keith Lockhart, the famous conductor of the BSO had to have shoulder surgery because of the stress that conducting puts on his body. It's the same with drummers, we can succumb to injuries from repetitive motion, or bad posture, et cetera...

To say that drummers suffer the health effects of a life on the road more than any other musician is pretty extreme.
Well, let me say this about that! Drummers are prone to abusing drugs and alcohol precisely because there's no such thing as "having a bad day" when you have shows to do which require a huge amount of effort and physical stamina. Everyone wants to perform at the top of their game all the time, and the demands of the profession often lead to "substance abuse", a little help from your "friends". Sometimes it just goes too far.

"Ever since we lost our innocence, we've been trying to get it back" -that's my own!
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  #53  
Old 12-14-2016, 02:47 AM
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

Right around the time I read the article referenced in this thread, I came across the following Jim Chapin clinic on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58oTtzcceS8&t=4826s. It's full of good advice on how to play (especially for louder music) in a way that prevents injuries. I thought I'd recommend it for those interested in this subject. Similar info can be found on Jim's DVD. In addition to the drumming advice, some of his musical anecdotes are interesting as well.
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  #54  
Old 12-14-2016, 04:19 AM
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

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Originally Posted by eddypierce View Post
Right around the time I read the article referenced in this thread, I came across the following Jim Chapin clinic on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58oTtzcceS8&t=4826s. It's full of good advice on how to play (especially for louder music) in a way that prevents injuries. I thought I'd recommend it for those interested in this subject. Similar info can be found on Jim's DVD. In addition to the drumming advice, some of his musical anecdotes are interesting as well.
He is an amazing badass. I definitely use the Moeller stroke when I'm not doing push-pull.
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  #55  
Old 12-14-2016, 05:07 PM
tcspears tcspears is offline
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

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Originally Posted by funkutron View Post
Well, let me say this about that! Drummers are prone to abusing drugs and alcohol precisely because there's no such thing as "having a bad day" when you have shows to do which require a huge amount of effort and physical stamina. Everyone wants to perform at the top of their game all the time, and the demands of the profession often lead to "substance abuse", a little help from your "friends". Sometimes it just goes too far.

"Ever since we lost our innocence, we've been trying to get it back" -that's my own!
I don't think that's unique to drummers or is a direct result of playing the instrument. Plenty of singers, guitarists, trumpet players, et cetera all abuse drugs. You can blame it on the lifestyle, the demands of being a touring musician, or whatever, but you's be hard pressed to make the case that needing stamina on the drums led some of these guys to start using heroin...

The OP is making the point that drumming is taking a toll on drummers, not that drummers are more prone to drug addiction, which then takes a toll on their bodies...
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  #56  
Old 12-14-2016, 06:11 PM
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

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Yes, Ringo is going, but Ringo has Greg Bissonette as his main drummer. Ringo doesn't carry a show himself.
Yes, Ringo has Greg Bissonette in the band, cuz Ringo goes up front and does the front-man thing for some of the songs. I watched them playing together at the show that I went to, and Ringo played drums for at least 75% of the show, when not out front. (He went backstage during one song, and that was for a wardrobe change.)

They were in sync perfectly. The whole show.

Ringo could have played the show without Bissonette, if he didn't have the obligations of being the front-man. Easily. Not to take away from Bissonettes playing, cuz it was awesome. But to say that Ringo "needs" Bissonette cuz he can't bring it is inaccurate. It simply makes for a better show. (And it was a GREAT show!)
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  #57  
Old 12-15-2016, 01:52 AM
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

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Yes, Ringo has Greg Bissonette in the band, cuz Ringo goes up front and does the front-man thing for some of the songs. I watched them playing together at the show that I went to, and Ringo played drums for at least 75% of the show, when not out front. (He went backstage during one song, and that was for a wardrobe change.)

They were in sync perfectly. The whole show.

Ringo could have played the show without Bissonette, if he didn't have the obligations of being the front-man. Easily. Not to take away from Bissonettes playing, cuz it was awesome. But to say that Ringo "needs" Bissonette cuz he can't bring it is inaccurate. It simply makes for a better show. (And it was a GREAT show!)
Oh no, please don't open the door for another Ringo debate. You can't compare him to Greg Bissonette, a superior player in every respect. To get back to the thread, Ringo has fortunately held up well over the years. With that said, and with peace and love, many of us on DW have logged more time behind a kit over the course of our lives than Ringo has. We haven't played on iconic records but that isn't the point. Anyone recall the last time he played a full gig? 1970-something? Many of us middle-aged weekend warriors are still playing for 3 hours on a Friday/Saturday night. Ringo is just not a very good example to use in any discussion about how drummers have held up over the years. How many hours, I mean minutes, has he played per All-Star gig?
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  #58  
Old 12-15-2016, 12:04 PM
Woolwich Woolwich is offline
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

http://www.ringostarr.com/tourdates/

A 76 years old man playing 21 dates in a month and 4 days in two different countries sounds like a fairly gruelling schedule to me. And as one contributor has pointed out he plays for about three quarters of the gig which "to me" sounds like at least an hour of stage time on drums, possibly more. That's a snapshot so I don't know how this stacked up with the rest of the year or what his tour and recording schedule has been for the last 40 years, but seriously? 76?? It seems that because he's in good shape and has been able to/had the sense to keep himself healthy that's somehow a demerit against him. If we're only going to give the examples of drummers who are now knackered in this thread then obviously the conclusion we'll reach is that drummers all get knackered!

And I bit my tongue after the Nick Mason remark earlier in this thread because I'm not a Pink Floyd fan or particularly knowledgable about them or him, but to disrespect these guys who grew up in post war Britain (pre Internet, pre virtually everything we take for granted today) is something I disagree with. So what if these guys aren't master technicians? They took their opportunities and worked with what they had to create things that the rest of us can only dream of and they brought something else to the table as part of a "group". Maybe it's not a fair comparison but if in twenty years time Drummerworld is populated by today's 5 year old YouTube sensations criticising us lot for hardly being technical drummers then we'll have a taste of what's being dished out to Nick Mason and Ringo Starr right now. There are many types of drummer and the type I'm most closely aligned to is the ones who just do it in a band. Not the bedroom heroes or the guys who think they're maybe not ready after only two years of tuition, the ones who are brave/stupid/keen enough to pick up their instrument and join in and see where it takes them. If Nick Mason and Ringo Starr were too busy recording albums and touring the world while laying down excellent drums on records. to work on bettering their "chops" then who's right and who's wrong? A bird in the hand and all that.
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  #59  
Old 12-15-2016, 12:25 PM
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

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Originally Posted by steadypocket View Post
Oh no, please don't open the door for another Ringo debate. You can't compare him to Greg Bissonette, a superior player in every respect. To get back to the thread, Ringo has fortunately held up well over the years. With that said, and with peace and love, many of us on DW have logged more time behind a kit over the course of our lives than Ringo has. We haven't played on iconic records but that isn't the point. Anyone recall the last time he played a full gig? 1970-something? Many of us middle-aged weekend warriors are still playing for 3 hours on a Friday/Saturday night. Ringo is just not a very good example to use in any discussion about how drummers have held up over the years. How many hours, I mean minutes, has he played per All-Star gig?
I don't think Greg Bissonette is a superior player to Ringo in every respect.
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Old 12-15-2016, 04:55 PM
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

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Originally Posted by steadypocket View Post
Oh no, please don't open the door for another Ringo debate. You can't compare him to Greg Bissonette, a superior player in every respect. To get back to the thread, Ringo has fortunately held up well over the years. With that said, and with peace and love, many of us on DW have logged more time behind a kit over the course of our lives than Ringo has. We haven't played on iconic records but that isn't the point. Anyone recall the last time he played a full gig? 1970-something? Many of us middle-aged weekend warriors are still playing for 3 hours on a Friday/Saturday night. Ringo is just not a very good example to use in any discussion about how drummers have held up over the years. How many hours, I mean minutes, has he played per All-Star gig?
I don't mean to start another Ringo debate. And yes, Greg Bissonette is technically a superior drummer to Ringo, he is fantastic.

All that I'm saying is that the Ringo All-Star show would still be great with Ringo playing the entire set. He has "front-man" obligations, being the headliner, so that is part of the point. He plays drums on ALL the songs that the other guys in the band sing (again save for the one wardrobe change) and on probably half of his own songs. And again, I watched him and Bissonette the whole night (naturally, lol) and they were spot-on in sync with each other, including fills. Yes, Bisonnettes were more intricate than Ringo's, but they both were together, every time. And drumming together isn't easy, either.

And as I said, he played drums on at least 75% of the two hour show, with the only break off-stage being a wardrobe change at one point. I play 4 hour gigs too, I understand where you're coming from on that point, but we rarely play more than 60 minutes without a break, sometimes 75. If you want to go down that road, NONE of the major touring acts play four hour sets, or four hour evenings. So none of our hero's meet that qualification, so don't limit that to Ringo.
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  #61  
Old 12-15-2016, 07:10 PM
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

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Originally Posted by Woolwich View Post
http://www.ringostarr.com/tourdates/

A 76 years old man playing 21 dates in a month and 4 days in two different countries sounds like a fairly gruelling schedule to me. And as one contributor has pointed out he plays for about three quarters of the gig which "to me" sounds like at least an hour of stage time on drums, possibly more. That's a snapshot so I don't know how this stacked up with the rest of the year or what his tour and recording schedule has been for the last 40 years, but seriously? 76?? It seems that because he's in good shape and has been able to/had the sense to keep himself healthy that's somehow a demerit against him. If we're only going to give the examples of drummers who are now knackered in this thread then obviously the conclusion we'll reach is that drummers all get knackered!

And I bit my tongue after the Nick Mason remark earlier in this thread because I'm not a Pink Floyd fan or particularly knowledgable about them or him, but to disrespect these guys who grew up in post war Britain (pre Internet, pre virtually everything we take for granted today) is something I disagree with. So what if these guys aren't master technicians? They took their opportunities and worked with what they had to create things that the rest of us can only dream of and they brought something else to the table as part of a "group". Maybe it's not a fair comparison but if in twenty years time Drummerworld is populated by today's 5 year old YouTube sensations criticising us lot for hardly being technical drummers then we'll have a taste of what's being dished out to Nick Mason and Ringo Starr right now. There are many types of drummer and the type I'm most closely aligned to is the ones who just do it in a band. Not the bedroom heroes or the guys who think they're maybe not ready after only two years of tuition, the ones who are brave/stupid/keen enough to pick up their instrument and join in and see where it takes them. If Nick Mason and Ringo Starr were too busy recording albums and touring the world while laying down excellent drums on records. to work on bettering their "chops" then who's right and who's wrong? A bird in the hand and all that.
Couldnt agree more.

These guys were making it up as they went along. What a lot of younger drummers dismiss as basic or simple drumming was the likes of Starr and Mason taking Rock drumming forwards and helping to invent the genre. Put things into historical perspective before you diss the old greats.

Try to imagine any Floyd or Beatles track with a different drum part, its not possible. Its in context and appropriate to the music.

I have done it myself. Playing along to old Stones songs..."I can put more chops in there than Charlie" Yes I can, and make them fit, but it still wont groove the way Charlie made it cos his original parts were just that. Original, and perfect for the song.
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  #62  
Old 12-15-2016, 08:49 PM
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

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Originally Posted by Woolwich View Post
http://www.ringostarr.com/tourdates/

A 76 years old man playing 21 dates in a month and 4 days in two different countries sounds like a fairly gruelling schedule to me. And as one contributor has pointed out he plays for about three quarters of the gig which "to me" sounds like at least an hour of stage time on drums, possibly more. That's a snapshot so I don't know how this stacked up with the rest of the year or what his tour and recording schedule has been for the last 40 years, but seriously? 76?? It seems that because he's in good shape and has been able to/had the sense to keep himself healthy that's somehow a demerit against him. If we're only going to give the examples of drummers who are now knackered in this thread then obviously the conclusion we'll reach is that drummers all get knackered!

And I bit my tongue after the Nick Mason remark earlier in this thread because I'm not a Pink Floyd fan or particularly knowledgable about them or him, but to disrespect these guys who grew up in post war Britain (pre Internet, pre virtually everything we take for granted today) is something I disagree with. So what if these guys aren't master technicians? They took their opportunities and worked with what they had to create things that the rest of us can only dream of and they brought something else to the table as part of a "group". Maybe it's not a fair comparison but if in twenty years time Drummerworld is populated by today's 5 year old YouTube sensations criticising us lot for hardly being technical drummers then we'll have a taste of what's being dished out to Nick Mason and Ringo Starr right now. There are many types of drummer and the type I'm most closely aligned to is the ones who just do it in a band. Not the bedroom heroes or the guys who think they're maybe not ready after only two years of tuition, the ones who are brave/stupid/keen enough to pick up their instrument and join in and see where it takes them. If Nick Mason and Ringo Starr were too busy recording albums and touring the world while laying down excellent drums on records. to work on bettering their "chops" then who's right and who's wrong? A bird in the hand and all that.
Couldn't have said it better myself!! Rock On !!
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Old 12-15-2016, 11:35 PM
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

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I am interested to read Nick Mason' s name on this thread.

Now am I ma be wrong here, but I am going to put my neck out on a limb. Pink Floyd are my all time fave band, I have seen then live and I am about as big a fanboy as you can get. But...

Nick Mason is no proper drummer. He was there from the beginning, and in his own words that I saw recently online when he was lecturing at a music school, he didn't know how to play the drums when he started with the band and had to learn quickly how to play just to back his friends in the band. He was never technical nor was he a die hard percussionist. He was in the right place at the right time, and fast forward 40 to 50 years now has a huge amount of experience playing Floyd songs - most of which are backing beats and/or oddly times silences or builds between musical phrases.

Don't get me wrong, he is very talented at what he does, which is producing the music of Floyd, but I don't see him developing concepts, being a dynamic drummer or doing anything out his comfort zone. Nobody is going to be a better Nick Mason than Nick Mason, but I am pretty sure many will be a better drummer than Nick Mason.

Maybe I am being harsh, but it is just how I see it. Having scrutinised a lot of his playing over the years and seen his live, his beats and fills are as basic as it gets and is just a necessity for the music, plus he never really looks that confident to me. There is a reason the live shows needed to bring in a percussionist. If you look at the last two tours, Pulse and Delicate Sound of Thunder, they used Gary Wallis throughout both tours as percussionist along with Mason. He had an arguably more complex setup and was essential for anything other than Mason's simple backing beats, of which there is a huge amount. Most of the dynamic sounds and percussion all comes form him leaping about his cage of drums and sounds whilst Mason sits comfortably dinging the ride on a 4/4 beat.
Nick Mason brought the feel.

Earlier Pink Floyd music had more complex drumming, but it simplified his playing as the albums went on.

For, Nick Mason is a HUGE influence. Listening to Mason taught me about space between the notes, about laying back, making it feel good, and not everything has to busy (not that I don't also enjoy busy playing at times).

But from reading interviews, he's pretty humble about it all. He doesn't hold himself up as great drummer. He admits others have appeared on Pink Floyd drum tracks. According a Jim Keltner interview in Drumhead magazine, Nick was in the other room reading magazines while Jim recorded drum tracks for
A Momentary Lapse of Reason. There are lessons that can be learned for having that little of an ego.

There are numerous stories of drummers quitting (would be) successful bands, or turning to drugs because they didn't get to be on their bands albums, and plenty of stories of drama in the studio over this or that. Nick's story is quite the opposite and gives an important lesson. Here is a guy who played drums on albums that have sold in excess of 250 million copies going "eh, I don't have to be the guy if the music sounds better with someone else".

Their may be better drummers, but I don't think there is a rock drummer alive who dings his ride simply on a 4/4 beat without consciously or unconsciously trying to get it to ding like Nick did on all those Pink Floyd albums.
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Old 12-16-2016, 05:53 AM
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

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Nick Mason is no proper drummer.
He was never technical nor was he a die hard percussionist.

I don't see him developing concepts, being a dynamic drummer or doing anything out his comfort zone.

his beats and fills are as basic as it gets and is just a necessity for the music, plus he never really looks that confident to me.
Nick Mason would totally agree with your first 2 points. You must read his book, very entertaining and honest.

But nobody in the band asked him to 'develop concepts' or raise his shops to get 'out of his comfort zone'. That is not music. Nick plays for the song, it worked and they liked every bit of it or somebody like Roger Waters would have turfed him. Parts on the Wall (the famous press roll) were done by Porcaro, because Mason was not with it at the time.
I bet you most of us on here would not be disciplined enough to play sparingly and with all the spaces like Nick did. Playing Comfortably Numb 'his way' - its not so easy to do.
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Old 01-29-2017, 12:50 AM
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

Hi everyone! I do not mean to offend anyone but I have to disagree with some of this and agree with others. this. I have been playing since I was 3 on and off. I started working out at a gym again recently and I have started with a new band after a 12 year gig at a club. I turn 65 next month and I can hold my own with anyone! Drumming can help keep you young. The key is not to slack off. After a week of lifting weights in the gym for the first week, We had band practice last night. I was aching all over similar to the way you ache when your getting the flu. I had ,had the flu for over a month. I almost called practice off. Finally I realized it was a not the flu making all my joints hurt but, tannic acid build up from lifting weights. Last night we had a 6 hour non stop hard rock jam practice. My buddy had told me playing drums the way I do would work that tannic acid out. He did not realize how right he was. After 6-7 hours of hard playing I felt like a million dollars and the soreness was gone. Heres sciantific research that supports what I am saying. "Brick in The Wall" is one of the songs we practiced over and over. I also did some fast Bonham licks for an extended about of time > It was grueling but exhilarating at the same time!

Documented Medical Benefits of Drumming
Stress
Blood samples from participants of an hour-long drumming session revealed a reversal of the hormonal stress response and an increase in natural killer cell activity (Bittman, Berk, Felten, Westengard, Simonton, Pappas, Ninehouser, 2001, Alternative Therapies, vol. 7, no. 1).

Depression
Stanford University School of Medicine conducted a study with 30 depressed people over 80 years of age and found that participants in a weekly music therapy group were less anxious, less distressed and had higher self-esteem (Friedman, Healing Power of the Drum, 1994).

Cancer
Subjects who participated in a clinical trial using the HealthRhythms protocol showed an increase in natural killer cell activity and an enhanced immune system. While this does not indicate a cure for cancer, such results may be of benefit for those facing this disease. (Bittman, Berk, Felten, Westengard, Simonton, Pappas, Ninehouser, 2001, Alternative Therapies, vol. 7, no. 1).

Alzheimer's Disease
According to Clair, Bernstein and Johnson (1995), Alzheimer's patients who drum can connect better with loved ones. The predictability of rhythm may provide the framework for repetitive responses that make few cognitive demands on people with dementia.

Parkinson's Diseases and Stroke
Rhythmic cues can help retrain the brain after a stroke or other neurological impairment, according to Michael Thaurt, director of Colorado State University's Center of Biomedical Research in Music. Researchers have also discovered that hearing slow, steady rhythms, such as drumbeats, helps Parkinson patients move more steadily (Friedman, Healing Power of the Drum, 1994).

Chronic Pain
Chronic pain has a devastating propensity for progressively draining quality of life. Technology and pharmacology are falling short of the mark needed to improve quality of life and reduce pain, according to Dr. Barry Bittman in the Pain Practitioner. (Lingerman, H. 1995, Music and You. In the Healing Energies of Music. Wheaton, Ill.: Theosophical Publishing House).

Last edited by DannyMeazell; 01-29-2017 at 01:06 AM. Reason: Word and spelling corrections
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Old 01-29-2017, 11:43 AM
iwearnohats iwearnohats is offline
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

Semi-related, but honestly I think ANY sort of quality (compound exercises, intense, etc.,) physical activity is good for everyone as they get older - including drumming!

Recently a middle-aged guy who manages a local skate park's Facebook page had a heart attack, but recovered very quickly and had minimal issues from the attack - the doctors attributed it to his fitness from skateboarding. People don't always necessarily realise how physically demanding skateboarding is. It's hard work, and great fitness.
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Old 01-29-2017, 12:18 PM
Wave Deckel Wave Deckel is offline
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

After years of heavy playing still going strong. :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPUvtp6UQVY
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Old 01-29-2017, 07:27 PM
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

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After years of heavy playing still going strong. :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPUvtp6UQVY
Wow that guy looks great at 100! Nice to see.
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Old 01-30-2017, 02:37 PM
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

Kenny Aronoff still seems to playing and working as hard as ever at 63, I know that he is a health nut though, maybe that helps.

Mark
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Old 01-30-2017, 09:44 PM
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

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46 years of drumming, and I played in heavy rock bands, is a piece of cake when you do a hard manual job 40 hours a week and train every day as an endurance runner. It depends on how big or small your comfort zone is.
This. Though I don't have a physically demanding job, I live in the country and do a lot of farm/yard/animal work that can be taxing (hauling hay bales, digging post holes, etc.) On top of that, though I no longer compete as a boxer, I still use a large part of my boxing workouts as a means of staying in shape.

Comparatively, playing hard for 2-3 hours is like a vacation. I'm coming in fast on 50 and seem to suffer fewer drumming-related injuries every year; I attribute it in equal parts to being mentally stronger (i.e. relaxed) and maintaining a degree of physical fitness.
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Old 01-30-2017, 10:49 PM
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

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This. Though I don't have a physically demanding job, I live in the country and do a lot of farm/yard/animal work that can be taxing (hauling hay bales, digging post holes, etc.) On top of that, though I no longer compete as a boxer, I still use a large part of my boxing workouts as a means of staying in shape.

Comparatively, playing hard for 2-3 hours is like a vacation. I'm coming in fast on 50 and seem to suffer fewer drumming-related injuries every year; I attribute it in equal parts to being mentally stronger (i.e. relaxed) and maintaining a degree of physical fitness.
Agreed. If drumming is the most exercise you do then a long gig will be a tough workout. If you do hard manual work or aerobic and strength training then its comfortable.
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Old 01-30-2017, 11:53 PM
WallyY WallyY is offline
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

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Wow that guy looks great at 100! Nice to see.
If he really is 100.
He looks 75. most everybody goes to hell after 90.
Except for maybe that Indonesian guy who's about 145.
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Old 01-31-2017, 03:38 AM
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

Everyone is different. There are drummers who are up in years who do just fine, and the reverse is true too. Me I play in support the others, the song, the audience, my bandleader who gives me the chair, the bar owner.... because that's what gets the effect I'm after. THAT'S my reward, the effect on the people.

I think the people...the ones that drumming took a toll on their health...it wasn't the fault of drumming, it was the fault of their drumming, or the way they drummed, or the attitude that they drummed with, or the reasons that they drummed the way they did. They disregarded themselves..either mentally, physically, spiritually, probably a combination... and it took it's toll.

Why people drum is just as important as what they play. Because the why will dictate the what. So why you pick a certain thing to play... right there that reveals a lot about yourself and where you are on the journey in life. If you are playing to impress, or if you are playing to shoehorn the latest fill in, or if you are playing for mostly selfish reasons...ego mainly, then that is not healthy and I believe it will affect your "aura" just as what you eat affects you.

On the other hand if you take a giant leap past the ego and instead play so the others in the band have a rock solid foundation to build on, whatever that means, you will overflow with abundance. The drummer easily has the most power in a band. How they use all that power is the crux of the biscuit here.

Drumming to me, I try to make it a joyous experience, I try and let go. I'm pretty sure that's what musicians are supposed to do, to reach their potential which hopefully translates into getting the full effect/benefit of music. I think others try and impress to the point where it's detrimental to a person's psyche. It's the wrong path. You HAVE to give to get, it's like writing letters. A drummers attitude to me is probably the single most important quality of that drummer. Basically they either play for themselves or they "get it" and realize the vital role they play in the health and the very attitude and capabilities of the band. A drummer colors a band more than any other instrument, for better or for worse.

I'm kind of over the drummers that are still stuck in the "look at me" phase. I want drummers who have moved beyond that, preferably a long time ago, and are way past that oh so limiting mindset. That's kid stuff.

Most, not all for sure, drummers I see locally play for themselves. It's selfish. They are missing so much.... I'm talking about seeing the big picture, and selflessly trying to lift up the music from the inside...give it wings and freedom. Try and get it off the ground so it's light and buoyant. People sense this and it has a tendency to loosen people in a positive, real, detectable way, especially women IMO. They automatically understand when people are giving of themselves for the greater good, because women do it like all the time, and they recognize it easily when they see it.

The people who are stuck trying to impress everyone....you can only get so far musically. There's so much better stuff. It's like they're eating (insert your last choice low grade food here) when there's (insert your ultimate meal here) to be had just as easily. It's all about the choice, but unfortunately choice is tied to ego instead of music in way too many musicians.

People can make awesome, really engaging choices...or they can make crap choices. That's the great thing about music, a crap musical choice costs as much as an exquisite one. Musically, why eat boogers when you could eat your ultimate favorite food for the same "price"?

Unhealthy playing is a choice. A bad one, it doesn't have to be like that. Some people insist on torturing themselves, when they could be soothing themselves...Why do people drink themselves to death, instead of stopping when they feel good? Music is a joyous gift to others, that multiplies and comes back around...if you are a good giving witch not a selfish using witch.

Thanks for listening to my ramble.
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Old 01-31-2017, 10:58 PM
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

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I'm kind of over the drummers that are still stuck in the "look at me" phase. I want drummers who have moved beyond that, preferably a long time ago, and are way past that oh so limiting mindset. That's kid stuff.

Most, not all for sure, drummers I see locally play for themselves. It's selfish. They are missing so much.... I'm talking about seeing the big picture

The people who are stuck trying to impress everyone....you can only get so far musically. There's so much better stuff. It's like they're eating (insert your last choice low grade food here) when there's (insert your ultimate meal here) to be had just as easily.
These sentences here summarise exactly, and I mean EXACTLY the lessons I have learnt over the past 3 months, having returned to my kit after 20 years of absence.

It continues to be a huge weight off my shoulders when I continue to realise that musicianship far outweighs showmanship. In fact I would go further, I am now toning down what I play and have been playing to get the basics / whats needed at 95% rather than sacrificing accuracy for the "ooh he sounds good" mentality. This has been further engrained by recently allowing myself to play to some songs I love rather than drills - the difference being I am listening to and loving the song I am playing to rather than worrying about what I can do to sound good.

Thanks for these words.
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Old 01-31-2017, 11:40 PM
BruceW BruceW is offline
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

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Originally Posted by Dizeee View Post
These sentences here summarise exactly, and I mean EXACTLY the lessons I have learnt over the past 3 months, having returned to my kit after 20 years of absence.

It continues to be a huge weight off my shoulders when I continue to realise that musicianship far outweighs showmanship. In fact I would go further, I am now toning down what I play and have been playing to get the basics / whats needed at 95% rather than sacrificing accuracy for the "ooh he sounds good" mentality. This has been further engrained by recently allowing myself to play to some songs I love rather than drills - the difference being I am listening to and loving the song I am playing to rather than worrying about what I can do to sound good.

Thanks for these words.
I agree with your agreement :)

This past Saturday night, I was playing a country-ish cover song in one of the bands I'm in, and after I played a really basic, two or three note fill, I said to myself, "that was pretty basic...and exactly what it needed....do that more often, dummy"

Funny how it struck me, mid-song.
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Old 01-31-2017, 11:43 PM
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

My first drum teacher was 82 when I started taking lessons. I can also tell you that I do not play as hard or frantic as I did when I was young. Better technique and better practice from a mental standpoint. I take time to work things out rather than try to brute force my way through it. I also have better posture than when I was young.
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Old 02-01-2017, 12:14 AM
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

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Originally Posted by Dizeee View Post
These sentences here summarise exactly, and I mean EXACTLY the lessons I have learnt over the past 3 months, having returned to my kit after 20 years of absence.

It continues to be a huge weight off my shoulders when I continue to realise that musicianship far outweighs showmanship. In fact I would go further, I am now toning down what I play and have been playing to get the basics / whats needed at 95% rather than sacrificing accuracy for the "ooh he sounds good" mentality. This has been further engrained by recently allowing myself to play to some songs I love rather than drills - the difference being I am listening to and loving the song I am playing to rather than worrying about what I can do to sound good.

Thanks for these words.
I second that exactly as stated. Lucky for me I had an epiphany in my early 20's and re-learned how to play and stripped down to a 5pc. I learned to be "real-time" in the song as it was happening and derived so much joy in each note I played, totally focused on the groove and nothing else. It's really liberating not caring what drum/musician-geeks think.

Many thanks Larry for all of the wisdom you have shared on this forum. I learn something new or you solidify something I already believed. You are truly a gem in the community.
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Old 02-19-2017, 01:55 AM
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

I'd rather hear Ringo than Gregg Bissonette.....

but aside from that, I think it's interesting to note that Ringo turned his health around after stopping drinking/drugging and started exercising and also went "veggie" a la McCartney.

Ringo also moved his hihat to the middle of his kit, not sure why, but I imagine it had something to do with the physicality of it.

There's also an interview with him where he jokes about playing slower.

It would be interesting to know how many hours he's actually spent playing and touring over the years, playing those 10 hour gigs in Hamburg.

It's also amazing to me that McCartney still tours the world, doing his 3 hour gigs at the age of 74, an age when most are sitting on the couch.
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Old 02-20-2017, 01:12 AM
iwearnohats iwearnohats is offline
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

I think you'll find it's because he didn't resolve his life to sitting on the couch all day when he was younger which has enabled him to being doing those gigs at that age.

People are generally their own worst enemies when it comes to health and fitness!

(I type this whilst sitting on a chair in front of a computer... not hypocritical at all!)
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Old 02-20-2017, 02:18 AM
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Default Re: After years of heavy playing, older drummers feel toll on health

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I think you'll find it's because he didn't resolve his life to sitting on the couch all day when he was younger which has enabled him to being doing those gigs at that age.

People are generally their own worst enemies when it comes to health and fitness!

(I type this whilst sitting on a chair in front of a computer... not hypocritical at all!)
It's damn true. We smoke, drug, drink, eat ourselves into type 2 diabetes and then drink a lot even then, and we behave as if we all want to DIE! Philosophically speaking, that's because as Humans we have the "curse of work", whereas my two cats right now are sleeping on the bed as if there's nothing else to do! They never have worry or insomnia, and all they need to be happy is a full tummy! What a life! How I as a Human envy the "natural" creatures! We think we're just "all that" but we are NOT!
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