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  #41  
Old 10-11-2016, 05:29 PM
tcspears tcspears is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Originally Posted by SmoothOperator View Post
IMO jazz, Afro Cuban(and some Brazillian) have more in common than one may expect. In Latin music the Cuban Salsa sound is played much differently than the main land, in the sense that the pulse is not rigid in much the same way that the Jazz swing is not a rigid subdivision.
They are fairly different. Yes, the players often play around the beat rather than playing it exactly, but the rhythmic concepts of Afro-Cuban, Jazz, and Brazilian music are pretty far apart.

Jazz and Brazilian might be closest, but Afro-Cuban music is entirely different.


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Originally Posted by SmoothOperator View Post
On the other hand the Mexican salsa is known for a very precise clave no cross rhythms.
Mexican Salsa?? Whenever I work with Mexican musicians they bemoan the fact that PR has some great music, Cuba has great music, and they have mariachi! The only salsa you find in Mexico is the food!


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Originally Posted by SmoothOperator View Post
Much of modern jazz can be traced back to Dizzie Gillespie, who sort of rescued the sound by importing fresh Afro Cuban elements, so they aren't all that distinct.
I think you're getting mixed up. Xavier Cugat is really the person that many credit with bringing Afro-Cuban music to the US in the early 30s. Cole Porter's Begin the Beguine was written after seeing Cugat play at the Waldorf in NYC.

You're thinking of the 1940s, when Dizzy took Afro-Cuban rhythms and fused them with jazz, really starting Afro-Cuban Jazz. Afro-Cuban music and Latin jazz were already popular musical styles at the time. Songs like Mantecca are great songs, but they are more jazz than Afro-Cuban.

As far as Modern Jazz, Dizzy was involved with Bebop, which is considered one of the first Modern jazz styles, but you didn't see him much in other Modern Jazz styles. He had shifted to Afro-Cuban Jazz, and then moved back into a blend of trad jazz, Be bop, and Afro-Cuban Jazz. I don't think there were many recordings of him playing modal tunes, post bop, free, et cetera.
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  #42  
Old 10-11-2016, 07:01 PM
4815162342 4815162342 is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Originally Posted by ineedaclutch View Post
El tiene todo la salsa. To-do.
Wouldn't that be "toda" la salsa?
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  #43  
Old 10-12-2016, 12:46 AM
SmoothOperator SmoothOperator is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Originally Posted by tcspears View Post
They are fairly different. Yes, the players often play around the beat rather than playing it exactly, but the rhythmic concepts of Afro-Cuban, Jazz, and Brazilian music are pretty far apart.

Jazz and Brazilian might be closest, but Afro-Cuban music is entirely different.




Mexican Salsa?? Whenever I work with Mexican musicians they bemoan the fact that PR has some great music, Cuba has great music, and they have mariachi! The only salsa you find in Mexico is the food!




I think you're getting mixed up. Xavier Cugat is really the person that many credit with bringing Afro-Cuban music to the US in the early 30s. Cole Porter's Begin the Beguine was written after seeing Cugat play at the Waldorf in NYC.

You're thinking of the 1940s, when Dizzy took Afro-Cuban rhythms and fused them with jazz, really starting Afro-Cuban Jazz. Afro-Cuban music and Latin jazz were already popular musical styles at the time. Songs like Mantecca are great songs, but they are more jazz than Afro-Cuban.

As far as Modern Jazz, Dizzy was involved with Bebop, which is considered one of the first Modern jazz styles, but you didn't see him much in other Modern Jazz styles. He had shifted to Afro-Cuban Jazz, and then moved back into a blend of trad jazz, Be bop, and Afro-Cuban Jazz. I don't think there were many recordings of him playing modal tunes, post bop, free, et cetera.
Sorry, I just think it is another example of when cultures mistake the names and places of origins of another culture. For example, Aztecs considered themselves Nahuetl, though the first encounters were with the Huestecs, who more or less Mayan.

Take for example blues. Blues is associated with run away slaves that spent time on reservations. Listening to some stomp dance was enlightening, and really did they have blues in Africa, Europe, Asia? Salsa same thing, Afro-Cuban may have been preserved by escaped slaves, but if you go on the continent and look at the history of the dance in places like Guatemala, Mexico, Columbia, Brazil, it's hard to say it salsa was anything more than just influenced, by the slaves(as important as that was for us to have salsa today).
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  #44  
Old 10-12-2016, 03:25 AM
drum4fun27302 drum4fun27302 is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Originally Posted by tcspears View Post
I guess it depends on your goals. I had to learn Afro-Cuban drumming and it's freaking hard!

I'm a jazz player, and I play a lot of Latin Jazz, which is usually fusing jazz with a latin rhythm (samba, bossa nova, rumba, et cetera). But I don't play much actual Latin music, and when I do, I have to woodshed like crazy to get my Latin chops back up.

If you are looking to play pure Afro-Cuban music, you'll find that it's very hard. For starters, you may have to play a different pattern with each limb, so you limb independence is going to be critical.

A basic Son or Rumba, would have the drummer playing the HH on 1 and 3 (or left foot cowbell clave if you have it), playing the tumbao pattern on the bass drum, playing a cascara with the right hand, and using the left hand to comp. These patterns are very specific too, and you have to know if the band is playing 2/3 or 3/2 (although in Cuba, they don't think of it that way)... You can't really fake it with this music, or just keep time; you are expected to play these patterns as the song is built around the specific rhythms. I've seen/heard arguments break out on stage between drummers and/or percussionists over what the clave is for a specific song... you cna't overstate how important these specific rhythms are to the music.

Brazilian music is a little more forgiving as their styles are a little more free and sync up with jazz a little better. Brazilians also take the rhythms less personally, and look for an overall "groove" rather than specific patterns.

In the same way that many jazz groups in Europe and the US, play jazz with a Latin-ish feel, many Latin groups in Cuba play Afro-Cuban with a jazz-ish feel... so it does go both ways.

Obviously, the more you learn the better off you are, but you have to figure out where you want to go. If you just want to spend a couple of months learning Afro-Cuban styles, and aren't trying to gig with Afro-Cuban groups, then it's a great exercise to open up your mind to different patterns, and work on limb independence.

If you are still learning jazz and that's your thing, then maybe work on some Latin jazz rhythms and patterns, at first. Then you can dive deeper into Afro-Cuban if you want.
^^^^^ this^^^^^

I am a guy that tries to play all the different patterns with different limbs to replace multi percussionists . I'm not dreaming Bout playing in a salsa bānd (not that I don't want to or can't ) but beeing a French guy that doesn't speak any spNish at all won't open me any doors !!!
But I love the challenge and that's what I enjoy doing .

Btw, I finally got the rumba right hand to flow nicely. It just "came" out of nowhere. Wooohooo
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  #45  
Old 10-12-2016, 03:37 AM
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Nate'sKit Nate'sKit is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Originally Posted by tcspears View Post
playing the tumbao pattern on the bass drum,
How in the world do you do that? The basic tumbao uses 4 different strokes. Bass, touch, slap, and open tone.

You hittin' things with sticks guys are driving me crazy. :-)

Last edited by Nate'sKit; 10-12-2016 at 03:47 AM.
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  #46  
Old 10-13-2016, 11:11 PM
vxla vxla is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

I recommend the following for the comprehensive list of styles and various parts made available throughout the book. Plus, the bell, bomba, and cascara patterns and variations are great for students coming up looking to get more coordinated with playing Cuban parts on drum kit.

http://www.steveweissmusic.com/produ...set-methods-cd
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  #47  
Old 10-15-2016, 11:55 PM
drum4fun27302 drum4fun27302 is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

One of the great books about it (has a cd in it as well) is Tito Puente's "drumming with the mambo king". Good luck finding it though . It took me 1.5 years to find a copy but I have it now !!!
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  #48  
Old 10-16-2016, 12:02 AM
drum4fun27302 drum4fun27302 is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Originally Posted by Nate'sKit View Post
How in the world do you do that? The basic tumbao uses 4 different strokes. Bass, touch, slap, and open tone.

You hittin' things with sticks guys are driving me crazy. :-)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumbao

He meant the bass tumbao: pretty much "and of 2" and ""4"
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  #49  
Old 05-03-2017, 06:00 PM
JohnnyConga JohnnyConga is offline
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Default Online Conga drum Instructor

I am a 'pro' with over 53 years of performance (Santana,Eddie Palmieri, Sergio Mendes, Gloria Estefan, and many others) I am the first ONLINE Conga drum Instructor on Skype.com over 11 years with pupils in Asia, Australia, Canada, Europe and in the U.S. I have a full course, the only one of it's kind in the U.S., that i have taught at 5 different colleges and universities..I work around your time and schedule..I am very affordable...All you need are a set of 'adult' conga drums and a whole lot of desire, and I can take you where you want to go and save you years of learning time...any questions just email me at johnnyconga@hotmail.com and we'll go from there.. I look forward to helping you on your road with the drum.. I can also answer all your questions about the Conga drum, it's music, history, rhythms, the Clave, and more...Thank you "JC" Johnny Conga
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  #50  
Old 05-03-2017, 06:02 PM
JohnnyConga JohnnyConga is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Originally Posted by drum4fun27302 View Post
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumbao

He meant the bass tumbao: pretty much "and of 2" and ""4"

The Tumbao has 8 strokes to it....Guys please get with a 'mentor' of the Conga drum..Be wary of those who think they know all about the Conga drum..I am an expert in this field, and can answer all your questions..
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  #51  
Old 05-03-2017, 06:38 PM
JohnnyConga JohnnyConga is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Originally Posted by tcspears View Post
They are fairly different. Yes, the players often play around the beat rather than playing it exactly, but the rhythmic concepts of Afro-Cuban, Jazz, and Brazilian music are pretty far apart.

Jazz and Brazilian might be closest, but Afro-Cuban music is entirely different.




Mexican Salsa?? Whenever I work with Mexican musicians they bemoan the fact that PR has some great music, Cuba has great music, and they have mariachi! The only salsa you find in Mexico is the food!




I think you're getting mixed up. Xavier Cugat is really the person that many credit with bringing Afro-Cuban music to the US in the early 30s. Cole Porter's Begin the Beguine was written after seeing Cugat play at the Waldorf in NYC.

You're thinking of the 1940s, when Dizzy took Afro-Cuban rhythms and fused them with jazz, really starting Afro-Cuban Jazz. Afro-Cuban music and Latin jazz were already popular musical styles at the time. Songs like Mantecca are great songs, but they are more jazz than Afro-Cuban.

As far as Modern Jazz, Dizzy was involved with Bebop, which is considered one of the first Modern jazz styles, but you didn't see him much in other Modern Jazz styles. He had shifted to Afro-Cuban Jazz, and then moved back into a blend of trad jazz, Be bop, and Afro-Cuban Jazz. I don't think there were many recordings of him playing modal tunes, post bop, free, et cetera.
The Father of Afro-Cuban Jazz is Mario Bauza, who was the musical director for the Machito Orchestra in NYC back in the 40's/50'/60's/70's..Mario Bauza was the one that introduced "Chano Pozo" to Dizzy Gillespie, as he wanted to add a 'tom-tom' player, as Dizzy called it..
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  #52  
Old 05-03-2017, 08:43 PM
JohnnyConga JohnnyConga is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

Nate Im sorry I have to disagree with the notion that those who are into Rumba also can play Salsa...Not true..most will not want to do either..Most drummers as well in Cuba dont necessarily play Rumba either..and those that can play Salsa play Latin Jazz as well..also not true, very small amount really crossover..they play what they feel comfortable and sure of...If your a Salsero , you don't necessarily can play or know how to play Rumba, and vice versa...NOT every Cuban knows Clave or can dance, or can sing, or knows Rumba...that is stereotyping...
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  #53  
Old 05-03-2017, 09:23 PM
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8Mile 8Mile is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Originally Posted by drum4fun27302 View Post
Jazz is based on the foot hihat on 2 and 4 and the dingyling on the ride with the left hand and right foot improvising
I realize this is a necropost by now, but I want to reply to this. Modern jazz drumming (and really, this means since Elvin) varies the ride cymbal beat and uses three voice comping that involves the left foot. The permutations are almost endless.

I'm not saying jazz coordination is more complex than the Afro-Cuban rhythms; I probably find the Afro-Cuban stuff more difficult. But I've studied both, and I think you can dedicate a lifetime to either one and run out of time before you run out of challenges.
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  #54  
Old 05-04-2017, 04:02 AM
williamsbclontz williamsbclontz is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Originally Posted by 8Mile View Post
I realize this is a necropost by now, but I want to reply to this. Modern jazz drumming (and really, this means since Elvin) varies the ride cymbal beat and uses three voice comping that involves the left foot. The permutations are almost endless.

I'm not saying jazz coordination is more complex than the Afro-Cuban rhythms; I probably find the Afro-Cuban stuff more difficult. But I've studied both, and I think you can dedicate a lifetime to either one and run out of time before you run out of challenges.
I agree with you 100%, both require a lot of time and focus and you could spend a lifetime on either. BUT, if you ever try to join a high level professional or college jazz band you have to be good at both. Also you'll get a lot more respect from other musicians in your area if you do that. Plus I find that a lot of the time both jazz and different Latin grooves can be mixed together. If you listen to swing drummers like Dannie Richmond or funk drummers like Harvey Mason you'll hear a lot of different Latin groove characteristics and influence in their playing. Studying all the different types of music is equally important in my opinion.
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  #55  
Old 05-08-2017, 03:25 PM
drum4fun27302 drum4fun27302 is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Originally Posted by JohnnyConga View Post
The Tumbao has 8 strokes to it....Guys please get with a 'mentor' of the Conga drum..Be wary of those who think they know all about the Conga drum..I am an expert in this field, and can answer all your questions..
You must have not clicked on the wikipedia link. here it is

Tumbao
In music of Afro-Cuban origin, tumbao is the basic rhythm played on the bass. In North America, the basic conga drum pattern used in popular music is also called tumbao. In the contemporary form of Cuban popular dance music known as timba, piano guajeos are known as tumbaos.[1]

Contents
Bass pattern Edit

Clave-neutral Edit
The tresillo pattern is the rhythmic basis of the ostinato bass tumbao in Cuban son-based musics, such as son montuno, mambo, salsa, and Latin jazz.[2][3]


Tresillo-based tumbao from "Alza los pies Congo," by Septeto Habanero (1925).
Often the last note of the measure is held over the downbeat of the next measure. In this way, only the two offbeats of tresillo are sounded. The first offbeat is known as bombo, and the second offbeat (last note) is sometimes referred to as ponche.[4] The following example is written in cut-time (2/2).
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  #56  
Old 05-08-2017, 04:18 PM
vxla vxla is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Originally Posted by JohnnyConga View Post
Nate Im sorry I have to disagree with the notion that those who are into Rumba also can play Salsa...Not true..most will not want to do either..Most drummers as well in Cuba dont necessarily play Rumba either..and those that can play Salsa play Latin Jazz as well..also not true, very small amount really crossover..they play what they feel comfortable and sure of...If your a Salsero , you don't necessarily can play or know how to play Rumba, and vice versa...NOT every Cuban knows Clave or can dance, or can sing, or knows Rumba...that is stereotyping...
True, but they have a far greater understanding of the CORRECT sound that the styles are played in, of course.

BTW, this "salsa" crap ain't even Cuban…Cubans have far more refined versions of that bombastic (but fun, of course) genre: namely timba.
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  #57  
Old 05-09-2017, 02:26 AM
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Nate'sKit Nate'sKit is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Originally Posted by JohnnyConga View Post
Nate Im sorry I have to disagree with the notion that those who are into Rumba also can play Salsa...Not true..most will not want to do either..Most drummers as well in Cuba dont necessarily play Rumba either..and those that can play Salsa play Latin Jazz as well..also not true, very small amount really crossover..they play what they feel comfortable and sure of...If your a Salsero , you don't necessarily can play or know how to play Rumba, and vice versa...NOT every Cuban knows Clave or can dance, or can sing, or knows Rumba...that is stereotyping...
I don't think that I specifically said any of that. But good points anyway.

BTW: It's Robert. Nate is my departed childhood friend.

Last edited by Nate'sKit; 05-09-2017 at 02:36 AM.
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