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  #1  
Old 10-07-2016, 09:22 PM
cantstoplt021 cantstoplt021 is offline
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Default Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

Kind of a loaded question I guess, but what style would you say is harder? I've spent a good amount of time working on jazz so I can definitely fake my way through classic jazz stuff, but I do have a long way to go. Definitely not trying to claim that I'm the most swinging jazz drummer, but I can fake it. Latin stuff however I haven't worked on too much. I can play a samba, bossa nova and I can kind of play cascara and bembe, however I would do so poorly in a Latin band.

I was planning on working from art of bop drumming a lot this semester, but I recently had the idea that maybe I should work on Afro Cuban stuff instead. Not sure which would be better for coordination? Maybe Afro Cuban? Maybe the jazz independence would feel easy after working on Latin stuff, I'm not sure. I know the rhythmic feel is different, but still.

Thoughts?
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Old 10-08-2016, 12:19 AM
drum4fun27302 drum4fun27302 is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

Afro Cuban hands down. Jazz is based on the foot hihat on 2 and 4 and the dingyling on the ride with the left hand and right foot improvising


Afro Cuban is based on the clave which is an 8 beat pattern (as opposed to the dingyling bring a 2 beat pattern). Much harder to improvise while doing a clVe on the left foot or left hand. Even harder while doing a cascara or mambo pTtern on the right hand while doing a tumbae on the kick.
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  #3  
Old 10-08-2016, 01:43 AM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

I would say Cuban music is harder, for several reasons. There's relatively less good information available; being clave-based, it's a pretty different system, with defined ideas about correctness the musicians take very seriously; it may be difficult to get playing experience. And playing the music on drumset is just harder-- there's a lot of hairy independence involved.

You may find Brazilian music to be more rewarding-- the attitude is more improvisation-friendly, the actual stuff you play on drumset is not hugely different from American-style drumming. I think there's more crossover between Brazilian music and jazz.

Jazz is not easy, but if you have a basic vocabulary together, there's no reason not to do more stuff. I assume you'll still be playing it in a combo, and working on it while you're doing this other stuff.

For materials, Ed Uribe's Cuban and Brazilian music books are both good. The Cuban book is massive, and very intimidating, but the info is clearer than other books I've seen. The Brazilian book is friendlier. Also Sabanovich's samba book is good, very concise.
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Old 10-08-2016, 08:32 AM
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

I look at it this way, The origins of these rhythms come from tribal patterns where most likely everyone in the village played a part within that rythm and did not deviate therefor building a complex structure that each member contributed to. For a kit player to fit into that realm is to understand each pattern and go for the feel that is grabbing you or which ever pattern is the driver.. Very hard to generalise about African rhythm as the Country has a ginormous rhythm tree which branches out in every direction. Then to add the Spanish influence as well to it, it is almost indescribable what intricacies can be performed. In a nutshell I would say they are equally difficult as each other.
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Old 10-08-2016, 10:48 AM
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

As far as AfroCuban music is concerned I think that you all are going for a short cut. The best Cuban drum set players are all rumberos in the first place. Golly, the best congueros and bongoceros in son/salsa and Latin Jazz know their Rumba too.

Since the music wasn't played on a kit in the first place, you are trying to do a translation. Kinda hard to do a translation when you don't know the language you are translating from.

You can wind up saying stuff like
Quote:
Afro Cuban is based on the clave which is an 8 beat pattern...
Until you can just think and feel that clave (and there is more than one you know) is just clave, and not some kind of thing separated into 8, you will never do more than fake it.
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  #6  
Old 10-08-2016, 03:54 PM
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

There isn't a clear answer. Back home (Puerto Rico) most people can play afro-cuban stuff way more convincingly than jazz stuff. Say I'm a student that just started college, I have my basic drum technique and coordination together and I know a few basic beats like bossa, songo, bomba, plena and maybe even a cascara and while I didn't actively listen to the music whilst growing up I was still surrounded by it since the music IS everywhere. So I start my college education, I start working coordination out of Horacio's book, latin tunes are called constantly in jams and gigs so I get to actually apply the material, oh what do you know? My drum teacher started out as a bongo player, so now I'm learning how the bongo works, I take an elective with the percussion teacher and learn how to play timbales, by this point I'm having tons of classic records being thrown at me: "con sangre nueva, indestructible!" My fellow students are working on Pedrito Martinez shit and how to play two bell patterns at the same time (doble campaneo with mambo and bongo bells, sounds so sick) so I start getting more into the stuff. I can easily go see masters of the music playing any day of the week, I join my school's salsa emsemble which basically functions as a working salsa band, it's lead by an amazing arranger that knows the music inside out, hell, even the school's big band will play this music, sometimes for a whole set as the University employs the big band as a dance band. Oh hey, Los Van Vans are in town next week and so on. It's super easy to get into it if you actually want to get into it, maybe one of the few places where doing that is actually possible.

Now say I'm the same student but wanting to learn jazz, sure I'll work out of Riley's book and Syncopation and yeah my teacher is an incredible jazz player but I don't get to see him play the style that often. There's not a single jazz club in PR, there's no dedicated jazz radio station, jazz isn't really part of the culture so unless it's mixed up with a traditional style you can forget about listening to it at festivals and stuff. I've had gigs where the.venue owner wants jazz so we play two swing tunes only for him to come back to tell the band he had "something more latin jazz" in mind. With so few gig opportunities most students decide to focus on other styles, they don't connect with the history so their playing sounds fake.

That was more or less my experience at school. I wanted to learn jazz and I was very conscious it would take a lot of extra work on my part. Still, I was passionate about it so I enjoyed it, whereas even tho I like afrocuban music, I just don't feel the same burning passion as when I listen to jazz, accepting this fact has been a long, conflicting process that definitely shapes part of my identity and gets into how I view myself as a puertorrican musician and what will I ultimately bring to my society and culture.

Anyways, my answer is that the one you enjoy working more on will be easiest.
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  #7  
Old 10-08-2016, 04:09 PM
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

Great answer ^^

Basically, the style you didn't grow up with is harder to learn.
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  #8  
Old 10-08-2016, 04:38 PM
SmoothOperator SmoothOperator is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

IMO jazz, Afro Cuban(and some Brazillian) have more in common than one may expect. In Latin music the Cuban Salsa sound is played much differently than the main land, in the sense that the pulse is not rigid in much the same way that the Jazz swing is not a rigid subdivision. On the other hand the Mexican salsa is known for a very precise clave no cross rhythms. If you listen to the traditional Guatemalan marimba music it is very precise clock like, great for dancing. Much of modern jazz can be traced back to Dizzie Gillespie, who sort of rescued the sound by importing fresh Afro Cuban elements, so they aren't all that distinct.
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  #9  
Old 10-08-2016, 04:39 PM
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Originally Posted by Morrisman View Post
Great answer ^^

Basically, the style you didn't grow up with is harder to learn.
Indeed it is a great answer.

If you didn't grow up with whatever the target style is, you have to listen to it. And listen to it. Then go back to the roots and listen to that. I don't see any other way to really get the feel.
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Old 10-08-2016, 04:51 PM
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Originally Posted by SmoothOperator View Post
IMO jazz, Afro Cuban(and some Brazillian) have more in common than one may expect. In Latin music the Cuban Salsa sound is played much differently than the main land, in the sense that the pulse is not rigid in much the same way that the Jazz swing is not a rigid subdivision. On the other hand the Mexican salsa is known for a very precise clave no cross rhythms. If you listen to the traditional Guatemalan marimba music it is very precise clock like, great for dancing. Much of modern jazz can be traced back to Dizzie Gillespie, who sort of rescued the sound by importing fresh Afro Cuban elements, so they aren't all that distinct.
Mexican Salsa music? Who?

In brief: "Salsa" came from what the Puerto Ricans and Nuyoricans added to Cuban Son in the 60s and 70s. As a Mexican friend who used to sing in some of the local Salsa bands said "Mexican music is fucking polka."
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  #11  
Old 10-08-2016, 06:20 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Originally Posted by Nate'sKit View Post
As far as AfroCuban music is concerned I think that you all are going for a short cut. The best Cuban drum set players are all rumberos in the first place. Golly, the best congueros and bongoceros in son/salsa and Latin Jazz know their Rumba too.

Since the music wasn't played on a kit in the first place, you are trying to do a translation. Kinda hard to do a translation when you don't know the language you are translating from.
Point well taken. But I'm a drummer, not a percussionist, and a jazz drummer at that, primarily. It is not my goal to be a great Cuban musician, it's to be able to play the few salsa gigs I get called for, to be able to play with players in town who know that music, and also to add something to my own personal thing— it's a peculiar conceit of jazz musicians to make something personal out of something you never really learned “correctly” in the first place, but there it is.

It's an important point, because professional players need to be able to cover it as a style, while fitting in with more knowledgeable specialists, at some level of commitment short of dedicating our entire lives to it— which is of course what is necessary to “really” do the music. But it's just a fact of life that there's going to be some co-mingling of communities that doesn't entail everyone just converting to being full-time Cuban musicians.

It's funny, when Cuban music comes up the conversation gets very serious. Where with Brazilian music, I'm talking to a bassist about the importance of learning the rhythms, and the pianist, a very accomplished musician from Rio, overhears me and says “Eh, most Brazilian drummers I know don't play the rhythms.” I mean, you have to learn the rhythms, but the difference in attitude is funny to me.

Thanks for the great comment, Numberless. I'd like to get your list of classic albums sometime-- got a top 25?
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  #12  
Old 10-08-2016, 06:34 PM
drum4fun27302 drum4fun27302 is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Originally Posted by Nate'sKit View Post
As far as AfroCuban music is concerned I think that you all are going for a short cut. The best Cuban drum set players are all rumberos in the first place. Golly, the best congueros and bongoceros in son/salsa and Latin Jazz know their Rumba too.

Since the music wasn't played on a kit in the first place, you are trying to do a translation. Kinda hard to do a translation when you don't know the language you are translating from.

You can wind up saying stuff like Until you can just think and feel that clave (and there is more than one you know) is just clave, and not some kind of thing separated into 8, you will never do more than fake it.
Last I checked , the 2-3 or 3-2 clave (son or rumba) last 8 1/4 notes (in cut time) compared to the jazz dingiling that lasts 2 1/4 notes.

And yes , we are playing a version that we "translate" on the drums which makes it even more challenging.


El negro would be a good example of that.
https://youtu.be/wJEp8J5sURM

Last edited by drum4fun27302; 10-08-2016 at 07:08 PM.
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  #13  
Old 10-08-2016, 06:59 PM
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

listen to a Max Roach solo, clave. trying to compare the two styles is not useful.
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  #14  
Old 10-08-2016, 08:15 PM
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
Point well taken. But I'm a drummer, not a percussionist, and a jazz drummer at that, primarily. It is not my goal to be a great Cuban musician, it's to be able to play the few salsa gigs I get called for, to be able to play with players in town who know that music, and also to add something to my own personal thing— it's a peculiar conceit of jazz musicians to make something personal out of something you never really learned “correctly” in the first place, but there it is.

It's an important point, because professional players need to be able to cover it as a style, while fitting in with more knowledgeable specialists, at some level of commitment short of dedicating our entire lives to it— which is of course what is necessary to “really” do the music. But it's just a fact of life that there's going to be some co-mingling of communities that doesn't entail everyone just converting to being full-time Cuban musicians.

It's funny, when Cuban music comes up the conversation gets very serious. Where with Brazilian music, I'm talking to a bassist about the importance of learning the rhythms, and the pianist, a very accomplished musician from Rio, overhears me and says “Eh, most Brazilian drummers I know don't play the rhythms.” I mean, you have to learn the rhythms, but the difference in attitude is funny to me.

Thanks for the great comment, Numberless. I'd like to get your list of classic albums sometime-- got a top 25?
A Salsa band with drum kit. Yuck. Why? Unless you are doing Timba and then you better know something.

This is where it comes from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AlYpp8F5a8

Check out what the requinto (damn that thing sounds good, all them drums do) player does. The speaking parts. Do you have any idea what he is doing? When, and why?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOQv...E70F6A8885A729
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Old 10-08-2016, 08:35 PM
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Originally Posted by drum4fun27302 View Post
Last I checked , the 2-3 or 3-2 clave (son or rumba) last 8 1/4 notes (in cut time) compared to the jazz dingiling that lasts 2 1/4 notes.

And yes , we are playing a version that we "translate" on the drums which makes it even more challenging.


El negro would be a good example of that.
https://youtu.be/wJEp8J5sURM
Say waht? Clave is clave. There is a pulse of 4 underneath it which is often counted as two anyway. 8.25 just gets in the way. 8-1/4, that hurts my head just thinking about thinking about it.

Clave is clave. You can come in on the 3 side or the 2 side.

Horacio "el Negro" Hernandez is not translating. Saw him with Ft. Apache. That is his native language. He's just came up with a different dialect/accent.
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Old 10-08-2016, 08:56 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

It's paying work, anyway. I won't be refusing future jobs with them, but I'll let them know you question their judgment in calling me. ;-)

I didn't represent myself as being knowledgeable about Rumba, but thanks for the links-- I'll definitely be watching those. You should start a thread where you educate people about Rumba. Obviously you have a lot of knowledge, and a strong desire to share it.
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Old 10-08-2016, 09:12 PM
drum4fun27302 drum4fun27302 is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Originally Posted by Nate'sKit View Post
Say waht? Clave is clave. There is a pulse of 4 underneath it which is often counted as two anyway. 8.25 just gets in the way. 8-1/4, that hurts my head just thinking about thinking about it.

Clave is clave. You can come in on the 3 side or the 2 side.

Horacio "el Negro" Hernandez is not translating. Saw him with Ft. Apache. That is his native language. He's just came up with a different dialect/accent.
Are you saying that if one is not portorican or Cuban , one cannot play Afro Cuban music?
It's like saying " if you're not black , you can't play jazz".

And yes, writing down a clave pattern take 2 bars (8 beats) and it is much more difficult to improvise with 2 limbs when the ostinato is based on a long phrase like that .
I can do a lot of improvising with kick Nd snare while doing a dingaling on the right hand and hat on 2 and 4.
When I try to improvise or just copy what I hear while using a left foot clAve , not so much. Got a loooong way to go and I bet it will be the same for most people.
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Old 10-08-2016, 09:39 PM
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Originally Posted by cantstoplt021 View Post
Kind of a loaded question I guess, but what style would you say is harder?
The one you're weakest at.

Let your heart guide you. Learn to play the music you enjoy and it will be a work of love. Just working on something because you think it's "hard" is utterly ridiculous and misses the whole point of playing music; namely "joy" and "expression".
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Old 10-08-2016, 09:42 PM
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Originally Posted by Nate'sKit View Post
Say waht? Clave is clave. There is a pulse of 4 underneath it which is often counted as two anyway. 8.25 just gets in the way. 8-1/4, that hurts my head just thinking about thinking about it.

Clave is clave. You can come in on the 3 side or the 2 side.

Horacio "el Negro" Hernandez is not translating. Saw him with Ft. Apache. That is his native language. He's just came up with a different dialect/accent.
Actually there are subtle differences between three two claves. Depending on the time signature and how they are swung, they can be 3/4, 12/8, 4/4, 2/4 etc.
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Old 10-08-2016, 10:00 PM
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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It's paying work, anyway. I won't be refusing future jobs with them, but I'll let them know you question their judgment in calling me. ;-)

I didn't represent myself as being knowledgeable about Rumba, but thanks for the links-- I'll definitely be watching those. You should start a thread where you educate people about Rumba. Obviously you have a lot of knowledge, and a strong desire to share it.
Heck yeah. Take the money and run. I often see the timbalero with a converted floor tom kick, a couple of cymbals, and a baby snare to handle that type of thing.

There's plenty of other places on the web to find out more, with people who are way more knowledgeable and articulate about than I am. I am mainly concerned of letting people know that there's more to it than commonly thought.

There's a freaking Carlos Santana tribute band in town that has everything down but the rhythmic concepts. They don't want to hear about it. They do a percussion break and it sounds like a hippy drum circle.
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Old 10-08-2016, 10:19 PM
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Originally Posted by drum4fun27302 View Post
Are you saying that if one is not portorican or Cuban , one cannot play Afro Cuban music?
It's like saying " if you're not black , you can't play jazz".

And yes, writing down a clave pattern take 2 bars (8 beats) and it is much more difficult to improvise with 2 limbs when the ostinato is based on a long phrase like that .
I can do a lot of improvising with kick Nd snare while doing a dingaling on the right hand and hat on 2 and 4.
When I try to improvise or just copy what I hear while using a left foot clAve , not so much. Got a loooong way to go and I bet it will be the same for most people.
Heck no. I'm an Irish Ukrainian (one generation through Canada) boy from Cincinnati, OH. I was fortunate to come to this music through these folks coming to town about 20 years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IR-HUElPfw

Long story short. I learned by playing one conga, bell, pair of claves, gua gua, or cajon at a time. The interplay of that with the other members of the ensemble is where it's always been at for me.

I can't remember the intellectual concepts that I used to get started, because they aren't clave. Clave is clave. I've never seen or heard anyone get there from counting and mapping it out without putting the time in to just listening to it until it becomes part of you.

That's not different from any other style of music. If it's just an intellectual exercise, then that's what it's going to sound like.
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Old 10-08-2016, 10:46 PM
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Actually there are subtle differences between three two claves. Depending on the time signature and how they are swung, they can be 3/4, 12/8, 4/4, 2/4 etc.
Are you talking about clave actually changing - Son, Rumba, Yambu, the various 6/8 bells - or what is going on around it, or how it is written on a piece of paper?

The idea of clave based music is just that. It is based on clave. The idea being that you tap your foot to clave as you would tap 4 for your average Rock or Pop song.
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Old 10-09-2016, 02:50 AM
SmoothOperator SmoothOperator is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Are you talking about clave actually changing - Son, Rumba, Yambu, the various 6/8 bells - or what is going on around it, or how it is written on a piece of paper?

The idea of clave based music is just that. It is based on clave. The idea being that you tap your foot to clave as you would tap 4 for your average Rock or Pop song.
Yes the clave changes, they super impose over a 4/4 sometimes. Other times not so much.
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Old 10-09-2016, 03:26 AM
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Yes the clave changes, they super impose over a 4/4 sometimes. Other times not so much.
Thousands, if not tens of thousands, of hours of listening to AfroCuban music and it's derivatives (not to mention what I've humbly played myself) and I've never heard that.
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Old 10-09-2016, 04:17 AM
cantstoplt021 cantstoplt021 is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

I think I'm gonna focus on some Afro Cuban stuff. I've been working on right hand clave while reading left hand "melodies" and good god it's hard. I think I'm gonna get to the point where I can read melodies with both hands while playing clave with either hand and then move on to cascara. That should keep me busy for the next couple months.
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Old 10-09-2016, 12:48 PM
SmoothOperator SmoothOperator is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Thousands, if not tens of thousands, of hours of listening to AfroCuban music and it's derivatives (not to mention what I've humbly played myself) and I've never heard that.
This page has the 6/8 clave written out:

http://www.formedia.ca/rhythms/1Clave.html

Note that only the general spacing or grouping is the same, almost all of the notes will move around, he also gives the notation of the 6/8 clave written in 4/4 triplets.

Also the standard claves in certain styles will move around for triplet feels on some beats. For example in rhumba the last note of the 3 son is moved back a bit(see the web page).
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Old 10-09-2016, 02:12 PM
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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I think I'm gonna focus on some Afro Cuban stuff. I've been working on right hand clave while reading left hand "melodies" and good god it's hard. I think I'm gonna get to the point where I can read melodies with both hands while playing clave with either hand and then move on to cascara. That should keep me busy for the next couple months.
As this is written this is just an interesting isolated exercise and has nothing to do with AfroCuban music. You are taking it out of context.
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Old 10-09-2016, 03:19 PM
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

What I enjoy doing playing salsa cha-cha-cha and rumba is to try to replicate what I hear with just me on the drumset most of the time it means cascara on the right hand, conga pattern on the left hand (rim click and rack to ) tumbae on the kick (with the 1st note longer) and foot hat on 1-3 or 2-4 or splashing on 1-3 . That's what I enjoy doing and the trick is to get all those percussionists (limbs)together with the correct pattern for each and then doing each with the correct accents/dynamic compared to the other limbs.

I also did some salsa dancing and noticed that there aren't that many salsa bands around (too expensive because so many members).
If one quarter can duplicate a whole band (for most of it) why not ?
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Old 10-09-2016, 03:26 PM
KamaK KamaK is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Originally Posted by drum4fun27302 View Post
I also did some salsa dancing and noticed that there aren't that many salsa bands around (too expensive because so many members).
If one quarter can duplicate a whole band (for most of it) why not ?
As you economize something, there is a tipping point where it tends to lose its appeal.

Salsa example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKFjuvB7Gfo
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Old 10-09-2016, 03:52 PM
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Nate'sKit Nate'sKit is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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This page has the 6/8 clave written out:

http://www.formedia.ca/rhythms/1Clave.html

Note that only the general spacing or grouping is the same, almost all of the notes will move around, he also gives the notation of the 6/8 clave written in 4/4 triplets.

Also the standard claves in certain styles will move around for triplet feels on some beats. For example in rhumba the last note of the 3 son is moved back a bit(see the web page).
Were talking semantics. The clave is not changing. They are different claves. It says so right on the page. Above each staff is the name. It does not say "Son clave played in 6/8" it reads "6/8 clave" Different bell patterns are not called claves but fall under that definition and act as such.

Rumba (no "h," Rhumba is something altogether different) clave is what you would play with Guaguanco (and some other rhythms) and as an aside it was once played with Son clave. As is Yambu played with Son clave in Havana but has it's own clave in Yambu Matancero.

If you want to study clave as an intellectual pursuit David Penalosa is your man. His book THE CLAVE MATRIX can be considered the standard on the subject. Note that he includes "...a prodigious discography of 10 pages. Also included are 2 CDs with 117 tracks of examples." as he knows that you are not going to get there without using your ears.

Here's something.

https://www.amazon.com/Rumba-Quinto-.../dp/1453713131

But what is wrong with it? Although it is awesome and allows you to more easily see and hear some things separately, it is out of context. Columbia is the macho, who's the baddest, strut your stuff rhythm. With fun stuff like knife play, doing fast steps over two machete with blades turned up, and balancing on rum bottles. Their is no singing, and also no dancing for the quinto player to interact with.

Now just in case anyone wants to know what to get me for Christmas, here's a link to Moperc's website. ;-)
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Old 10-09-2016, 04:00 PM
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Originally Posted by drum4fun27302 View Post
What I enjoy doing playing salsa cha-cha-cha and rumba is to try to replicate what I hear with just me on the drumset most of the time it means cascara on the right hand, conga pattern on the left hand (rim click and rack to ) tumbae on the kick (with the 1st note longer) and foot hat on 1-3 or 2-4 or splashing on 1-3 . That's what I enjoy doing and the trick is to get all those percussionists (limbs)together with the correct pattern for each and then doing each with the correct accents/dynamic compared to the other limbs.

I also did some salsa dancing and noticed that there aren't that many salsa bands around (too expensive because so many members).
If one quarter can duplicate a whole band (for most of it) why not ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
As you economize something, there is a tipping point where it tends to lose its appeal.

Salsa example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKFjuvB7Gfo
Yeah. Those sports teams cost a ton of bread. Maybe we could just replace them with one guy with puppets. I'd watch that.

NOT.
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Old 10-09-2016, 10:41 PM
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
As you economize something, there is a tipping point where it tends to lose its appeal.

Salsa example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKFjuvB7Gfo
El tiene todo la salsa. To-do.
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Old 10-09-2016, 11:38 PM
drum4fun27302 drum4fun27302 is offline
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Yeah. Those sports teams cost a ton of bread. Maybe we could just replace them with one guy with puppets. I'd watch that.

NOT.
A quartet with conga, piano, drums and bass/vocals is not the same as a one man band ;)
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Old 10-10-2016, 12:20 AM
KamaK KamaK is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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A quartet with conga, piano, drums and bass/vocals is not the same as a one man band ;)
Indeed. That's exactly my point. A 4 piece isn't a full salsa band. A one man band is not a quartet. While they may be remarkable (admittedly, what that one man band is doing in the video is really, really hard), there's a line that gets crossed where I am less apt to get up and on to the dance floor and am more likely to sit with a cold drink and gaze.

Full salsa bands are like a party on a stage, and the audience really wants to be bart of that party.
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Old 10-10-2016, 02:06 AM
drum4fun27302 drum4fun27302 is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Indeed. That's exactly my point. A 4 piece isn't a full salsa band. A one man band is not a quartet. While they may be remarkable (admittedly, what that one man band is doing in the video is really, really hard), there's a line that gets crossed where I am less apt to get up and on to the dance floor and am more likely to sit with a cold drink and gaze.

Full salsa bands are like a party on a stage, and the audience really wants to be bart of that party.
Where I am (Raleigh/Durham ,nc) they have salsa socials about every Tuesday, wed, and sat and Sunday (thst's 5/6 times a week) and a salsa band maybe once a year. They are just too expensive. The local dance instructor/DJ just plays some classic tune and voila !! Story of live music.

But the bigger the band , the harder it is to book.
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Old 10-10-2016, 02:56 AM
SmoothOperator SmoothOperator is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Indeed. That's exactly my point. A 4 piece isn't a full salsa band. A one man band is not a quartet. While they may be remarkable (admittedly, what that one man band is doing in the video is really, really hard), there's a line that gets crossed where I am less apt to get up and on to the dance floor and am more likely to sit with a cold drink and gaze.

Full salsa bands are like a party on a stage, and the audience really wants to be bart of that party.
I've been to plenty of five/six piece bands. Timbale, conga, keys, bass, singer + cowbell.

Only the larger bands can afford to have dedicated singers, often times the timbales and conga sing back up. The cowbell singer can swap out to bongos, as can the conga. The conga player usually also plays guiro(torpedo). Singer isn't necessary either, could be a wind instrument.

I've also seen a number of four piece salsa bands, usually conga, bass, keys, guitar singer.
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Old 10-10-2016, 03:39 AM
vxla vxla is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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Originally Posted by SmoothOperator View Post
This page has the 6/8 clave written out:

http://www.formedia.ca/rhythms/1Clave.html

Note that only the general spacing or grouping is the same, almost all of the notes will move around, he also gives the notation of the 6/8 clave written in 4/4 triplets.

Also the standard claves in certain styles will move around for triplet feels on some beats. For example in rhumba the last note of the 3 son is moved back a bit(see the web page).
Well no, not really. That page is not accurate. There is no 3/2 or 2/3 in Cuba….there's just rumba or son clave. Also, folkloric styles don't really use a 6/8 or 4/4 clave; instead, clave is felt in "fix" (see Spiro [2006] for a definition) depending on the song.

Last: it's "rumba", not "rhumba".

The OP asking what is more difficult is interesting. I've seen several swing groups in Havana that just can't get the feel. It just depends on what you grew up with and what is more natural to you. A strong 2 & 4 isn't something that is easily felt by many Cubans.
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Old 10-10-2016, 05:39 AM
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

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I've been to plenty of five/six piece bands. Timbale, conga, keys, bass, singer + cowbell.

Only the larger bands can afford to have dedicated singers, often times the timbales and conga sing back up. The cowbell singer can swap out to bongos, as can the conga. The conga player usually also plays guiro(torpedo). Singer isn't necessary either, could be a wind instrument.

I've also seen a number of four piece salsa bands, usually conga, bass, keys, guitar singer.
Playing the bell on the right parts is a big part of the bongocero's job. The bigger the band, with more percussionists, and the later the musical style the more time spent on bell.
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Old 10-10-2016, 04:10 PM
vxla vxla is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

Whoever has capacity plays the bell. If there is no bongocero and it's just someone playing congas and a kit player, I'm happy when another musician can grab a bell if their hands are free. Same goes for cha-cha; if someone else grabs guiro to help fill out the parts, more power to 'em.
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Old 10-11-2016, 04:03 PM
tcspears tcspears is offline
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Default Re: Jazz vs Latin (Afro-Cuban/Brazilian)

I guess it depends on your goals. I had to learn Afro-Cuban drumming and it's freaking hard!

I'm a jazz player, and I play a lot of Latin Jazz, which is usually fusing jazz with a latin rhythm (samba, bossa nova, rumba, et cetera). But I don't play much actual Latin music, and when I do, I have to woodshed like crazy to get my Latin chops back up.

If you are looking to play pure Afro-Cuban music, you'll find that it's very hard. For starters, you may have to play a different pattern with each limb, so you limb independence is going to be critical.

A basic Son or Rumba, would have the drummer playing the HH on 1 and 3 (or left foot cowbell clave if you have it), playing the tumbao pattern on the bass drum, playing a cascara with the right hand, and using the left hand to comp. These patterns are very specific too, and you have to know if the band is playing 2/3 or 3/2 (although in Cuba, they don't think of it that way)... You can't really fake it with this music, or just keep time; you are expected to play these patterns as the song is built around the specific rhythms. I've seen/heard arguments break out on stage between drummers and/or percussionists over what the clave is for a specific song... you cna't overstate how important these specific rhythms are to the music.

Brazilian music is a little more forgiving as their styles are a little more free and sync up with jazz a little better. Brazilians also take the rhythms less personally, and look for an overall "groove" rather than specific patterns.

In the same way that many jazz groups in Europe and the US, play jazz with a Latin-ish feel, many Latin groups in Cuba play Afro-Cuban with a jazz-ish feel... so it does go both ways.

Obviously, the more you learn the better off you are, but you have to figure out where you want to go. If you just want to spend a couple of months learning Afro-Cuban styles, and aren't trying to gig with Afro-Cuban groups, then it's a great exercise to open up your mind to different patterns, and work on limb independence.

If you are still learning jazz and that's your thing, then maybe work on some Latin jazz rhythms and patterns, at first. Then you can dive deeper into Afro-Cuban if you want.
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