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  #1  
Old 08-10-2016, 05:33 PM
NVIC NVIC is offline
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Default Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

You know, those tunes where you're hoping for a great solo and when it comes you're not impressed or expected more. We all know Phil Collins' little solo in In The Air Tonight. Another candidate is in the Led Zep tune Dyer Maker, right after Jimmy Page's solo, Bonham's little cymbal "hiccup" before Plant starts singing again.

Any other candidates?
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Old 08-10-2016, 05:44 PM
tcspears tcspears is offline
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

I don't think that's a solo in In The Air Tonight... that seems more like a specific drum part... maybe a fill.

I'm not familiar with the Led Zep tune, but I don't think there were many drum solos on their studio albums, were there?
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Old 08-10-2016, 08:09 PM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

I read that Phil Collins was unsure what to do with the space in question. He finally put in that primitive fill and was astonished the public loved it. From a drummers perspective, it ain't much. Given how the whole song builds to that one magic moment, I find it disappointing.

By the way, if what I read about that fill proves incorrect, it wouldn't be the first time I accepted an "apocryphal" story as gospel.
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Old 08-10-2016, 08:56 PM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

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Originally Posted by NVIC View Post
You know, those tunes where you're hoping for a great solo and when it comes you're not impressed or expected more. We all know Phil Collins' little solo in In The Air Tonight. Another candidate is in the Led Zep tune Dyer Maker, right after Jimmy Page's solo, Bonham's little cymbal "hiccup" before Plant starts singing again.

Any other candidates?
I know what you mean. I do try to be open-minded about such things - allow the player to express himself, allow some degree of interpretation. Usually, as long as the 'spirit' of the song is followed, I won't quibble about following the 'letter'.

But I remember seeing Steve Miller in New Orleans many years ago, and he (of course) played all the hits. Some of those drum parts - and specific drum fills - are so iconic, I hear them as a part of the song's fabric, not just aural decoration. So when the touring drummer - who was technically excellent, by the way - basically skipped the 'must-have' fills on 'Fly Like and Eagle'and 'Keep On A-Rockin' Me', it left me empty.
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Old 08-10-2016, 09:28 PM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

Quite different if one were to miss the part at 2:05 here
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  #6  
Old 08-10-2016, 09:41 PM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

Phil Collins fill a letdown?? I disagree.. apart from being an awesome drummer all round, and the guy that turned Genesis into the killer band it became after he joined.. that fill, although simple, it is a powerful musical statement..

a lot of non-drummers just lie in wait to get to that thundering tom fill. I suppose some drummer wonder why he didn't go for a triple ratamacue with a quad foot pattern.. but I find it difficult to argue with success.. being one of the biggest hits of all time (literally!). Go Phil!
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Old 08-10-2016, 09:55 PM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

Don't agree that the examples cited here are letdowns. Especially the Collins part, which has become a signature phrase. If Mike Tyson is air-drumming the drum part to a decades-old song in a hit comedy film, then I'd say it worked.

But I'm always surprised when drummers don't play the signature parts. I guess those artists don't care. But as a drummer who plays in several cover bands, I am positive that our commitment to reproducing those parts is appreciated by our audiences.
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Old 08-10-2016, 09:57 PM
Skrivarna Skrivarna is offline
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

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From a drummers perspective, it ain't much. Given how the whole song builds to that one magic moment, I find it disappointing.
OK, I just lost both you and the OP. That particular fill is one of the most recogizable and iconic drum parts in music history, and for good reason. Simple. Effective. The sound.

In what way can it be disappointing or a "letdown"? Because it is not quintuplets over a HH clave and double bass roll ostinato?
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Old 08-10-2016, 10:14 PM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

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OK, I just lost both you and the OP. That particular fill is one of the most recogizable and iconic drum parts in music history, and for good reason. Simple. Effective. The sound.

In what way can it be disappointing or a "letdown"? Because it is not quintuplets over a HH clave and double bass roll ostinato?
Agreed. Its a signature fill. The fact its easy to play makes it even better. Its beauty being the context its played in.
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  #10  
Old 08-10-2016, 11:08 PM
Brian Brian is offline
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

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Originally Posted by NVIC View Post
You know, those tunes where you're hoping for a great solo and when it comes you're not impressed or expected more. We all know Phil Collins' little solo in In The Air Tonight. Another candidate is in the Led Zep tune Dyer Maker, right after Jimmy Page's solo, Bonham's little cymbal "hiccup" before Plant starts singing again.

Any other candidates?
Bonham had plenty of them iirc.

For one of my drum lessons as a youth, I brought in the CD "Presence" to my drum instructor. We went over some tunes including Achilles, which is what I wanted to learn the most. I thought Bonham was the perfect drummer. He said "well he wasn't that perfect..." and showed me the botched fill on "hots on for nowhere" 4:19..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U6t...CjduJ5nM1aSjn6
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  #11  
Old 08-10-2016, 11:29 PM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

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Originally Posted by NVIC View Post
You know, those tunes where you're hoping for a great solo and when it comes you're not impressed or expected more. We all know Phil Collins' little solo in In The Air Tonight. Another candidate is in the Led Zep tune Dyer Maker, right after Jimmy Page's solo, Bonham's little cymbal "hiccup" before Plant starts singing again.

Any other candidates?
You're missing the point. The purpose of those fills (they're not solos) is not to be impressive to drummers. Those tracks are absolute classics, and you'd be better off trying to figure out why they're great than picking them apart for not being mind-blowing enough.
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  #12  
Old 08-10-2016, 11:33 PM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

What is it with the recent spate of threads taking a pop at fellow drummers?
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  #13  
Old 08-10-2016, 11:34 PM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

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Originally Posted by Brian View Post
Bonham had plenty of them iirc.

For one of my drum lessons as a youth, I brought in the CD "Presence" to my drum instructor. We went over some tunes including Achilles, which is what I wanted to learn the most. I thought Bonham was the perfect drummer. He said "well he wasn't that perfect..." and showed me the botched fill on "hots on for nowhere" 4:19..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U6t...CjduJ5nM1aSjn6
Nah, Bonham is perfect!
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  #14  
Old 08-10-2016, 11:54 PM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

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Nah, Bonham is perfect!
But he over-played though...
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  #15  
Old 08-11-2016, 12:01 AM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

I'd say the sound of those toms on the Collins fill are as much a part of the hook as the simplicity. It's like an archetype.... the sound a lot of non-drummers think should bellow from that unmiked, stock headed Imperialstar on the floor of GC if they sat down and played it.
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  #16  
Old 08-11-2016, 12:12 AM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

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Originally Posted by opentune View Post
Quite a letdown to miss the part at 2:05 here
I like the simple phrasing of that fill, how on the 4th bar the groove was established again with the bass drum on the 3 and.
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  #17  
Old 08-11-2016, 11:34 AM
Woolwich Woolwich is offline
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

More complicated doesn't equal better, less complicated doesn't equal worse, what works for the song is what matters.
Re the Phil Collins fill, if it had been a whirlwind around the toms which he's more than capable of doing I argue that it wouldn't have had the same effect. One of the most recognisable and effective parts ever written are the four notes that start Beethovens 5th Symphony, and I would not be surprised if you're humming it now as you read this.
As for the John Bonham fill, that was recorded in a time before pro tools, when studio time was at a premium and at a time before people had the inclination or equipment to play and replay music parts to pick them apart. If it worked well enough at the time then it stayed in. And who knows, perhaps he and the band picked up on it but decided just to keep it in?
And as philrudd said, keeping signature parts no matter how simple (or complicated) in live versions of songs is essential whatever instrument is being played. When either of my covers bands tackles a song THE most important thing for us to keep in are those signature bits. My main band has a woman singing songs that were made famous by male singers, none of us will be playing the same instruments through the same gear and getting the same sound as the original band, it may not even be played in the same key, but as long as those "touchstone" drum parts or sections of guitar solo are kept in then everyone's happy.
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  #18  
Old 08-11-2016, 12:10 PM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

To paraphrase something WhoIsTony once said, the premise behind this thread is akin to suggesting that the Mona Lisa would've looked better with a distinct smile as opposed to the mysterious smirk da Vinci created.

An idea that has frankly never made much sense to me.
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  #19  
Old 08-11-2016, 02:46 PM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

In the air tonight turned out perfect. Hit songs are not made to showcase the Drummer. That fill was on point and will be remembered and loved by people who have no interest in drums and Drummers alike. It goes back to less is more. Look at Rush songs, all most every one has some fairly intricate drum fills and such but they never had a top 10 hit either.
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  #20  
Old 08-11-2016, 03:19 PM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

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Originally Posted by Brian View Post
I thought Bonham was the perfect drummer. He said "well he wasn't that perfect..." and showed me the botched fill on "hots on for nowhere" 4:19..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U6t...CjduJ5nM1aSjn6
I'll disagree and say he was doing a drop-flam-triplet thing to break up the idea that he was using the same timing on all the previous fills.

It's similar to when you might not do a fill at all because you've done one on the last two transitions because it breaks up the perception of trite predictability.
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  #21  
Old 08-11-2016, 04:22 PM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

I love Jeff Pocaro. I really, really do love his playing.

With that said, after hearing Simon Philips playing his version of "Africa," I wish Jeff would have done just a little bit more in terms of fills and whatnot.

Simon is a flippin' beast:

https://vimeo.com/39895919
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Old 08-11-2016, 04:37 PM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

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I love Jeff Pocaro. I really, really do love his playing.

With that said, after hearing Simon Philips playing his version of "Africa," I wish Jeff would have done just a little bit more in terms of fills and whatnot.

Simon is a flippin' beast:

https://vimeo.com/39895919
Check Jeffs live version of Africa, now that's daddy feel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA6ox-a6UWA

I really love Simon Phillips as a drummer and he was the last person you would have down to replace Jeff. Rick Marotta would have been cool or Carlos Vega but he pulled it off with style and changed their sound for the better. Tambu/Falling in Between/Mindfields are so well produced and the drums sound so good, way better that XIV.
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Old 08-11-2016, 04:39 PM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

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Check Jeffs live version of Africa, now that's daddy feel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA6ox-a6UWA

I really love Simon Phillips as a drummer and he was the last person you would have down to replace Jeff. Rick Marotta would have been cool or Carlos Vega but he pulled it off with style and changed their sound for the better. Tambu/Falling in Between/Mindfields are so well produced and the drums sound so good, way better that XIV.
I will check this out! Thanks. :)
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  #24  
Old 08-11-2016, 09:02 PM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

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Originally Posted by Wally Young View Post
I'll disagree and say he was doing a drop-flam-triplet thing to break up the idea that he was using the same timing on all the previous fills.

It's similar to when you might not do a fill at all because you've done one on the last two transitions because it breaks up the perception of trite predictability.
I understand that, it's not so much the notes or phrase, but where the notes land. Hiccup for sure, at least to my ears.
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Old 08-11-2016, 09:53 PM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

"I thought Bonham was the perfect drummer. He said "well he wasn't that perfect..." and showed me the botched fill on "hots on for nowhere" 4:19.."(Quote)

I am really surprised that a drum teacher would come out with a statement like that about another drummer, even if he thought it. Also, for him to specifically remember a song, and a particular fill in a song, and the second it occurs at, smacks of pedantry.

I have heard of Bonzo but I bet I have never heard of this perfectionist drum teacher.
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Old 08-11-2016, 11:17 PM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

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Originally Posted by mikel View Post
"I thought Bonham was the perfect drummer. He said "well he wasn't that perfect..." and showed me the botched fill on "hots on for nowhere" 4:19.."(Quote)

I am really surprised that a drum teacher would come out with a statement like that about another drummer, even if he thought it. Also, for him to specifically remember a song, and a particular fill in a song, and the second it occurs at, smacks of pedantry.

I have heard of Bonzo but I bet I have never heard of this perfectionist drum teacher.
Imperfections can make for great records and music. The reason I said that, was because I at 13 years old didn't have the ear to pick them up or give them a second thought. In fact I think he played that part of the record and asked me to point out a flaw, which I missed. He picked out the hiccup not to down JB but because it came up in conversation and a point he was making.

Bonham was one of his favorite rock drummers and he was excited to show me how to play like he did.
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Old 08-12-2016, 12:08 AM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

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Originally Posted by Brian View Post
Imperfections can make for great records and music. The reason I said that, was because I at 13 years old didn't have the ear to pick them up or give them a second thought. In fact I think he played that part of the record and asked me to point out a flaw, which I missed. He picked out the hiccup not to down JB but because it came up in conversation and a point he was making.

Bonham was one of his favorite rock drummers and he was excited to show me how to play like he did.
I wasnt taking a pop at you, far from it. Flaws in Rock music? If the recording of a good song feels good, then it is good. For me the energy and feel of a song is far, far more important than any so called flaws. Who's to say he didnt deliberately play it like that?
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  #28  
Old 08-12-2016, 04:07 AM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

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Originally Posted by opentune View Post
Quite different if one were to miss the part at 2:05 here
Did it plenty of times because the lead guitar didn't play the melody.
Told him numerous times :" you play the melody then I do the fill".

after the gig :" hey, you forgot the fill on born to be wild"
Me:" errrrrr, yeah , where do you want me to put it , in the middle of your solo??"
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  #29  
Old 08-13-2016, 07:38 AM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

The flaws are what make the older music better for me. A lot of it was done on tape, which costs a lot of money, and sounds incredible. You can't go back on tape and take out mistakes. If the band was killing it on the first or third take with minor mistakes, then why mess with it? It has great energy and captures what really goes on.

I love hearing those drummers hit the rim on accident or getting a little bit off because they are going for something different. It tells you they are playing at a high energy level trying to get that live energy for the recording.

I don't mean to go on a huge rant here, but most of all the new music today is too perfect. It sounds like garbage that is over produced and everyone's timing is dead on a click. I can't even listen to that shit unless it's something like Genesis or Steely Dan, where they have incredibly talented studio drummers. I need to make a thread about it when I have the time.

Now let's look at one my favorites-Kenny Aronoff. His work with John Melloncamp is still ahead of its time. Very simple bad ass drum fills. His playing on tour is amazing as well.

Bonham is also one of my favorites for live and studio. Not as solid as Kenny(Bonham improved every album), but just as energized/perfect for the music. They loved him because he didn't overplay! Maybe the whole band overplayed during live shows for some musicians' tastes, but in my opinion it is what is missing in a lot of bands today. That energy they had while improvising was priceless.

An example of an over produced rock band these days-Five Finger Death Punch. I can't stand any of that over produced studio sound when i hear it on the radio. To me it's sounds like they are going through the motions in the studio. It's not capturing any feeling for me.

Does that sound crazy?
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  #30  
Old 08-13-2016, 04:29 PM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

Well placed musical fills really enhance the music.

Extended drum solos, for me, 99% of the time, are very lame.
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Old 08-13-2016, 04:35 PM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

Waituhminute.

Is this the bit that is being called a candidate for a letdown?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJw1vAiNjAg

Bzzzzzt. We have total thread meltdown.

Please proceed in an orderly fashion to your nearest fallout shelter. ;)

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Old 08-13-2016, 08:32 PM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

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Originally Posted by Hummada View Post
The flaws are what make the older music better for me. A lot of it was done on tape, which costs a lot of money, and sounds incredible. You can't go back on tape and take out mistakes. If the band was killing it on the first or third take with minor mistakes, then why mess with it? It has great energy and captures what really goes on.

I love hearing those drummers hit the rim on accident or getting a little bit off because they are going for something different. It tells you they are playing at a high energy level trying to get that live energy for the recording.

I don't mean to go on a huge rant here, but most of all the new music today is too perfect. It sounds like garbage that is over produced and everyone's timing is dead on a click. I can't even listen to that shit unless it's something like Genesis or Steely Dan, where they have incredibly talented studio drummers. I need to make a thread about it when I have the time.

Now let's look at one my favorites-Kenny Aronoff. His work with John Melloncamp is still ahead of its time. Very simple bad ass drum fills. His playing on tour is amazing as well.

Bonham is also one of my favorites for live and studio. Not as solid as Kenny(Bonham improved every album), but just as energized/perfect for the music. They loved him because he didn't overplay! Maybe the whole band overplayed during live shows for some musicians' tastes, but in my opinion it is what is missing in a lot of bands today. That energy they had while improvising was priceless.

An example of an over produced rock band these days-Five Finger Death Punch. I can't stand any of that over produced studio sound when i hear it on the radio. To me it's sounds like they are going through the motions in the studio. It's not capturing any feeling for me.

Does that sound crazy?
I totally agree with you. Modern pop music is garbage. I listen to classic rock stations when I turn on the radio and when I'm going to see a movie in a mall where I live they pipe country music through the mall's PA system and I don't mean to offend country music fans here but it just gets me irritated to hear that twangy sobbing lyrical crap. There simply is no musicianship in any pop music I hear these days. Give me Danny Carey's drumming in any Tool track and his offshoot band whose name escapes me now or give Tim Alexander of Primus fame...The commitment to that level of musicianship is inspiring and unparalleled by any of what passes for "pop" music any day of the week and twice on Sundays. Sorry for the lengthy rant I'm just so disgusted with the state of pop music today.
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  #33  
Old 08-13-2016, 09:43 PM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

If the drum parts NVIC are talking about were truly a letdown, they probably wouldn't have made on the track. It's fairer to state that despite making it to the track, there's certain drum parts that don't appeal to you. Nothing wrong there.

WADR, a letdown to one person does not a letdown make. Somebody was good enough with that part to allow it on the track.
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  #34  
Old 02-16-2018, 08:50 PM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

When I was 9, I heard God of Thunder from KISS's Alive II. There's a drum solo in the middle of the song and that was my initial inspiration to get into drumming (Thanks, Pete).

Now when I listen to it, I'm not as moved as I was back then. While Peter Criss had many good drum parts in the songs he was on, he's not the greatest solo artist I once thought he was.
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Old 02-16-2018, 09:08 PM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

When people who aren't drummers air-drum your specific part every time the song comes on, you've done something right. I see not how this could be a let down.
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  #36  
Old 02-19-2018, 11:42 PM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

What Collins does is write great songs. He played what the song needed and it fits perfectly. It doesn't interrupt the mood, or the rhythm at all, and makes its point and gets out of the way.

What always pisses me off is when I see people cover "Don't Stop Believin'" and completely screw it up. It's not just a 2-4 back beat. Steve Smith didn't spend all of that time writing that brilliant part just so Jim Bob can screw it up playing at at a dive bar.
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Old 02-22-2018, 02:29 AM
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

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Originally Posted by Brian View Post
For one of my drum lessons as a youth, I brought in the CD "Presence" to my drum instructor. We went over some tunes including Achilles, which is what I wanted to learn the most. I thought Bonham was the perfect drummer. He said "well he wasn't that perfect..." and showed me the botched fill on "hots on for nowhere" 4:19..
No-mark drum teacher's take on the most influential, critically-acclaimed and commercially successful rock drummer of all time...
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Old 02-22-2018, 03:25 PM
Witterings Witterings is offline
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Default Re: Drum Solo/Fill Letdowns

I think Joe Public hear the drums very differently to how a drummer does, you get some songs like Open Arms by Tracy Chapman and there's some amasingly subtle little flurrys going on in the background which a non drummer would totally miss and probably say he's a rubbish drummer ...
What they don't get is what he puts in gives is what gives the song it's whole feel / vibe .... they're more impressed by the In The Air Tonight fill as it's big and loud and personally I think works incredibly well with the song but the same fill would kill the Tracey Chapman song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxQHIIdB6FU

The minute I saw the opening of the thread I thought of Ringo as he so often gets stick but I think this guy sums it up pretty well and in essence it's what works with the music that's important and makes a good drummer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oQsKRyihEA
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