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  #41  
Old 08-07-2016, 09:44 AM
mikel mikel is offline
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

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Originally Posted by WhoIsTony? View Post
actors who over act
chefs who over season
writers who are too wordy

it means nothing

my wife hates spicy food ... I love it

some don't care for Keith Moon ... I love him

there is no such thing as overplaying ... but there are such things as different opinions and preference
This /\

Its subjective. Recordings capture a moment in time and live gigs can be driven by excitement and an enthusiastic audience. Music is an art, not a science, so its about interpretation.

Less sometimes is more but, sometimes more is not nearly enough. Drums and drummers should have a personality, so much of the music we hear now on the radio is cookie cutter drumming and I think we are becoming brain washed into thinking one size fits all.
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  #42  
Old 08-07-2016, 10:02 AM
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

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Originally Posted by WhoIsTony? View Post
actors who over act
chefs who over season
writers who are too wordy

it means nothing

my wife hates spicy food ... I love it

some don't care for Keith Moon ... I love him

there is no such thing as overplaying ... but there are such things as different opinions and preference

Yes, I agree


Quote:
Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
My favorite conspicuous overplayer would probably be Greg Saunier
This is not a good example of overplaying. When the guitar players are banging on their guitars, he's banging on the drums.
When the guitar players are playing softer, he's playing the drums softer. I don't hear any over playing here.


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  #43  
Old 08-07-2016, 10:16 AM
_Leviathan_ _Leviathan_ is offline
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

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Originally Posted by WhoIsTony? View Post
actors who over act
chefs who over season
writers who are too wordy

it means nothing

my wife hates spicy food ... I love it

some don't care for Keith Moon ... I love him

there is no such thing as overplaying ... but there are such things as different opinions and preference
+1. It's all relative, and totally subjective.
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  #44  
Old 08-07-2016, 02:05 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

It is kind of interesting that you seldom hear players criticized as underplaying. Though in modern music I think about 90%+ is underplayed. You know like punks and dolls that want to look cool and cute on stage or blues bands that just want beer etc. Mostly underplayed IMO, though I think people don't call it under playing they call it something to the effect of "not very good".
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  #45  
Old 08-07-2016, 04:15 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

An example of overplaying from a band I love, King Crimson. Pat Mastelotto in Coda: I Have a Dream (from around 9 mins) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x71U5GMtc8o

No doubt they had something abstract in mind, probably to convey a sense of chaos, but I didn't think PM's drumming approach in that one quite worked on a visceral level. I mention it because the performance of Larks Tongues and Coda are otherwise great - the link's an awesome listen if you're in the mood for crazy music but I thought the chaotic drumming was a small detraction.

Might be gettin' conservative in my old age.
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  #46  
Old 08-07-2016, 05:54 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

You can't define it because it's a moving target.

Same thing with "play for the song." What does that mean? Nobody can tell you, because it doesn't exist. Whatever you do on the drums can be part of the song, if all the pieces fall into place. Or not.
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  #47  
Old 08-07-2016, 06:54 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

It is moveable and the comcept goes for any instrument.

The signature of a song can well be one instrument totally dominating the others and that could just as well be a drumset as anything else.

Motown thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlyazZXigwk

Or even be a songs signature:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Y2qfmjCmCw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTiyLuZOs1A


There is also more than pop music in this world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZDbUAE9vzo
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  #48  
Old 08-07-2016, 10:37 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

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Originally Posted by SmoothOperator View Post
It is kind of interesting that you seldom hear players criticized as underplaying. Though in modern music I think about 90%+ is underplayed. You know like punks and dolls that want to look cool and cute on stage or blues bands that just want beer etc. Mostly underplayed IMO, though I think people don't call it under playing they call it something to the effect of "not very good".
Perfectly right.
For me, I call them lazy !
And they could be boring as hell. No fill, no work on the hihat, no use of toms, no ghost note, and sometimes, no power in the way they play.
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  #49  
Old 08-07-2016, 10:42 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

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Originally Posted by SmoothOperator View Post
There is already a thread about UK drummers.
BAM!

hahaha. nice one.
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  #50  
Old 08-08-2016, 09:08 AM
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

I'm all for "over-playing." The drummer should be an equal member in the band. Go nuts. Just know when to dial it back. There has to be peaks and valleys.
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  #51  
Old 08-08-2016, 10:25 AM
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

You can overplay and made it a WIN the same way that you can overplay and make a total FAILURE.
Sometimes it's obvious.
Sometimes it's subtle.

I do , in the same song, depending on the part or the mood, overplay a lot (and no one seems to care) and then make it simple simple, smooth and nice. (and no one seems to care).

In the end, you must live for your convictions. Do what you feel in the song.
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  #52  
Old 08-08-2016, 10:32 AM
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

“A drummer never overplays, nor does he underplay, he plays precisely what he means to.”

-Gandalf
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  #53  
Old 08-08-2016, 10:48 AM
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

Something that's rarely talked about in these kinds of topics is where the drums are in the mix. Imagine what The Who would sound like if Moonie's drums were mixed like 80s boom-smack pop! The others would have been forced to turn up to 12. Either that or they'd lynch him :)

In 80s and later pop the snare and kick are mixed way up so any variation sticks out like dogs' yarbles. Any "great ideas" better be bang on or they'll disrupt.

Another thing, add a bit of verb or play in a room with wicked acoustics and there's a whole new requirement for drums - say bye bye to subtle nuances and ghosties and say hello to leaving more space.

I learned that about thirty years ago seeing Jethro Tull and Crowded House on the same bill in the godawful acoustics of the Entertainment Centre. Tull's brilliant intricacies turned to mush in a mess of echoes while Crowded House sounded like a million dollars. From memory, Paul Hester played the gig with kick, snare, hats, mounted tom and a crash.
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  #54  
Old 08-08-2016, 11:11 AM
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

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Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Something that's rarely talked about in these kinds of topics is where the drums are in the mix. Imagine what The Who would sound like if Moonie's drums were mixed like 80s boom-smack pop! The others would have been forced to turn up to 12. Either that or they'd lynch him :)
You got that right Grea. Lots of notes, delivered with gusto, can only sit comfortably in most music forms if backed off in the mix & not too much "weight" added in production.
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  #55  
Old 08-08-2016, 12:52 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

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Originally Posted by Odd-Arne Oseberg View Post
“A drummer never overplays, nor does he underplay, he plays precisely what he means to.”

-Gandalf
That's a nice forum signature right there.
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  #56  
Old 08-08-2016, 01:06 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

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That's a nice forum signature right there.

I thought so. :-)

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  #57  
Old 08-08-2016, 01:25 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

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I thought so. :-)

.
Good job, Gandalf :D
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  #58  
Old 08-08-2016, 01:44 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

one of my favourite drummers overplays, but it suits the music, and is part of the overall sound with his beauty to play great drums over simple beautiful guitar parts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0RWnzd_b_k

Toe, an overplayers dream. but so perfect for the music wait for the 3min mark
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  #59  
Old 08-08-2016, 02:41 PM
Wave Deckel Wave Deckel is offline
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

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Originally Posted by Odd-Arne Oseberg View Post
“A drummer never overplays, nor does he underplay, he plays precisely what he means to.”

-Gandalf
Hmmm... this is somewhat contradictory to Peter Erskine: "You don't have to show off" which means that there ARE musicians who try to impress everyone and thus overplay, not doing any favor to the music. Barriemore Barlow even admitted later in an interview that he played way too much at times and should have rather played less on some Tull recordings. But generally speaking, overplaying is rather a problem for amateurs who don't know better, and not for pros who usually have a good musical education.

But anyway, as others said already, this is all very very subjective. I don't think that Carter Beauford overplays a lot (sometimes he does a bit, yes... but it's not horrible). But I think that Vinnie Colaiuta e.g. overplays a lot. Jack DeJohnette overplays a lot. Others will say of course that both don't overplay. And both opinions are okay because they are purely subjective.

So... why are we discussing this?
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  #60  
Old 08-08-2016, 09:57 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
When listening to studio recordings, you will likely not hear any overplaying. It simply wouldn't be allowed by the artist or producer (and in the old days, the record labels who were concerned with selling product.) Whether the drumming is complicated or simpler, it's how the people involved wanted it.!
Good sentiment that I agree with. When it comes to either professional-level recording bands/musicians, generally overplaying isn't a thing. Things are they way they are for astute musical reasons. Even for a lot of bands that aren't "professional" yet, they just write really well and they can get away with it.

But this is something you definitely often see with people who don't write music well. And I'm including even advanced drummers in this. There are incredible players that have no idea how to play with other people or write music. And terrible players that know how to listen and write well enough that they can get away with ridiculously simple stuff.

This might sound tautological, but I think "overplaying" is just a drummer's way of saying "wrote a part that makes no sense."
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  #61  
Old 08-08-2016, 10:07 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

Also, just a comment on all this "subjective" talk. I agree. Taste is of course, subjective, and people can like different things, and even change their mind about what they like. But "Subjective" should never mean that anything goes, or that all performances, songs and players have equal merit.

All of the things that we're saying on these boards are also subjective. But that doesn't mean language has no rules and anything goes. We all more or less follow the same rules of English grammar to express a subjective opinion.

Same with music. What you do and don't like is kind of up to you. What you play and don't play is up to you. And the rules change all the time -- but nevertheless, there are musical rules. These is such a thing as something that sounds bad or is poorly written. If there weren't such a thing, there'd be nothing for us to "subjectively" like or dislike in the first place.
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  #62  
Old 08-08-2016, 10:22 PM
Wave Deckel Wave Deckel is offline
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

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there are musical rules. These is such a thing as something that sounds bad or is poorly written. If there weren't such a thing, there'd be nothing for us to "subjectively" like or dislike in the first place.
Hmm... Rules are guidelines and rules need to be broken from time to time in order to get one step further, be it music, painting, literature, physics,... If rules were not broken, then we would still be singing e.g. gregorian chants. No rock, no pop, no jazz, no funk, no baroque, no classical music, no folk, no country,...

Something that is considered "poorly written" might be the in-stuff some decades later. It has been the case in the past and will be the same in the future. Many composers made music that was way ahead of their time (Coltrane e.g.). Many were hated for what the did. And some decades later, everybody loved the music that they hated before.
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  #63  
Old 08-08-2016, 11:02 PM
mikel mikel is offline
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

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Originally Posted by Wave Deckel View Post
Hmm... Rules are guidelines and rules need to be broken from time to time in order to get one step further, be it music, painting, literature, physics,... If rules were not broken, then we would still be singing e.g. gregorian chants. No rock, no pop, no jazz, no funk, no baroque, no classical music, no folk, no country,...

Something that is considered "poorly written" might be the in-stuff some decades later. It has been the case in the past and will be the same in the future. Many composers made music that was way ahead of their time (Coltrane e.g.). Many were hated for what the did. And some decades later, everybody loved the music that they hated before.
I agree. There is no over or under playing, particularly in recordings. If the drummer, the songwriter, the band and the producer thought it was appropriate then it was, and still is.
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  #64  
Old 08-08-2016, 11:29 PM
Wave Deckel Wave Deckel is offline
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

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If the drummer, the songwriter, the band and the producer thought it was appropriate then it was.
This would be okay. The last part [and still is] is not a useful addition IMO. Because it would state that our musical taste does not change over time, which is not true.

It probably was appropriate when it was recorded back then. But maybe ten years later, everybody says: Uhhhh.... he overdid. ;-)
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  #65  
Old 08-08-2016, 11:36 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

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Originally Posted by Wave Deckel View Post
Hmm... Rules are guidelines and rules need to be broken from time to time in order to get one step further, be it music, painting, literature, physics,... If rules were not broken, then we would still be singing e.g. gregorian chants. No rock, no pop, no jazz, no funk, no baroque, no classical music, no folk, no country,...

Something that is considered "poorly written" might be the in-stuff some decades later. It has been the case in the past and will be the same in the future. Many composers made music that was way ahead of their time (Coltrane e.g.). Many were hated for what the did. And some decades later, everybody loved the music that they hated before.
Totally agree. Some rules were meant to be broke, and it sounds amazing when it is. Rules are always shifting and becoming new. But you can't break a rule that isn't there. And you can't change a rule unless there was one before it.

Just like Old English turned into what we speak now.
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  #66  
Old 08-09-2016, 12:24 AM
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

I wanted to comment on the "Oceans" drummer. Not the original Hillsong track, but that video someone made in church. Now the original recording has busy drums....but they are blended much better volume-wise. Now if the video guy totally laid back on the force with which he played....it might have worked way better.

I had that same revelation when I first started recording myself. In this one particular transition in a song, the notes I chose were fine, but I played them too loud, I purposely "stuck it out" and it was anything but fine according to my recording. Next time I played that particular song again, I laid back on the volume during that transition, and voila, on the recording, it sounded exactly as I intended it to sound. Big lesson learned there. If the notes are right but the dynamic is too loud...mark missed. How I play something is equally as important as the notes chosen. It's not what I play it's how I play it. That was my take away from that.

That could be the same thing going on with the "Oceans" dude.
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  #67  
Old 08-09-2016, 03:53 AM
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

Agree Larry. From my own experience it could be from practising playing along with recorded music. My ears got used to hearing the drums too loud in the mix and it was always hard playing with bands and not being able to hear what I was doing clearly.

Then it twigged in old age that if the drums are really clear there's a good chance they're too loud.

Also agree about trying to get your cool stuff to stand out. Stupid thing to do in hindsight but I did it for yonks. A drum motif or bridge can be a feature in the right place but driving hard in the wrong place sounds more clunky than exciting.

Still, I also like music where pretty ordinary musos screw up all the time, but they do it with style. Today's pop is much more mistake-free and the drumming is always appropriately programmed or played - and much of that music gives me a headache.
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  #68  
Old 08-09-2016, 09:28 AM
mikel mikel is offline
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

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Originally Posted by Wave Deckel View Post
This would be okay. The last part [and still is] is not a useful addition IMO. Because it would state that our musical taste does not change over time, which is not true.

It probably was appropriate when it was recorded back then. But maybe ten years later, everybody says: Uhhhh.... he overdid. ;-)
No, a recording is a snapshot of a moment in time, and on the last point you are again raising "Taste", and taste is always personal and subjective. Its like saying that Bach's music has too many violins and not enough guitar, because guitar is the go to instrument today.
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  #69  
Old 08-09-2016, 10:32 AM
Wave Deckel Wave Deckel is offline
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

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a recording is a snapshot of a moment in time
No. A recording is a snapshot of a moment in time with music that was right at that moment considered to be well made, tasty, perfectly arranged.

Bachs music, which was considered masterful work during his lifetime, btw. was highly unpopular just a few decades after his death. Too complex, too serious, too much organ, blablabla. It took quite a long time for people to appreciate his music again. And it needed the work of Felix Mendelssohn-Bartholdy to do so. Without him, we probably still wouldn't care about Bach.
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Old 08-09-2016, 04:36 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

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Originally Posted by Wave Deckel View Post
No. A recording is a snapshot of a moment in time with music that was right at that moment considered to be well made, tasty, perfectly arranged.

Bachs music, which was considered masterful work during his lifetime, btw. was highly unpopular just a few decades after his death. Too complex, too serious, too much organ, blablabla. It took quite a long time for people to appreciate his music again. And it needed the work of Felix Mendelssohn-Bartholdy to do so. Without him, we probably still wouldn't care about Bach.
I dont care about Bach, but, once again, thats personal taste. It still comes down to the same thing.

And, the moment in time is still relevant. It was perfect then and its still perfect now because it captured the "Emotion" of the recording. No matter how rough, no matter how much music may have "Moved on" since. Most people I know are not fickle enough to go with every fashion change in music.

Listen to "Twist and Shout" by the Beatles. Its raw and rough, mic's are popping, John's voice is almost at breaking point, there are tempo fluctuations, but If it fails to make the hair on the back of your neck stand up I feel truly sorry for you. Thats a perfect moment in time.
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  #71  
Old 08-09-2016, 04:43 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

Yeah. Mach is da schnitz.

https://youtu.be/NgViOqGJEvM
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  #72  
Old 08-09-2016, 04:50 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

Whether or not he overplays (subjective), Carter Beauford is fun to watch play drums. He uses all 4 limbs at will.
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  #73  
Old 08-09-2016, 05:50 PM
Wave Deckel Wave Deckel is offline
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

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I dont care about Bach
You brought him up dude...

Quote:
And, the moment in time is still relevant.
If we speak of a recording as a historical document, then yes.
Quote:
It was perfect then and its still perfect now because it captured the "Emotion" of the recording.
What is "perfect" is highly debatable (nothing is really perfect, everything is subjective) and it is completely defined by subjective appraisal or criticism, which is based on your socialization, your edcation, the culture you live in, the era you live in etc.. A recording made in a special way at a special time in a special environment was considered perfect by those, who made the record and a bunch of people who shared a similar education, socialisation and culture. People who cheered to the The Who or the Sex Pistols back then were mainly working-class people, just like the Band members. British Aristocracy, nor the upper class were amused with The Who's music, neither with the Sex Pistols. Just an example of thousands.

Quote:
Listen to "Twist and Shout" by the Beatles. ... but If it fails to make the hair on the back of your neck stand up I feel truly sorry for you. Thats a perfect moment in time.
IMHO there are way better Beatles songs. Twist & Shout does not make the hair on my neck stand up. Sorry. I guess we come from different socialisations, different educational backgrounds etc. What works for one person does not usually work for all. If this were not true, then we ALL would love e.g. the music of Engelbert Humperdinck and nothing else. *Beurk!* And we would not even discuss if drummers overplay or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnite Zephyr
Whether or not he overplays (subjective), Carter Beauford is fun to watch play drums. He uses all 4 limbs at will.
Agreed.
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  #74  
Old 08-09-2016, 10:14 PM
mikel mikel is offline
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

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Originally Posted by Wave Deckel View Post
You brought him up dude...

If we speak of a recording as a historical document, then yes. What is "perfect" is highly debatable (nothing is really perfect, everything is subjective) and it is completely defined by subjective appraisal or criticism, which is based on your socialization, your edcation, the culture you live in, the era you live in etc.. A recording made in a special way at a special time in a special environment was considered perfect by those, who made the record and a bunch of people who shared a similar education, socialisation and culture. People who cheered to the The Who or the Sex Pistols back then were mainly working-class people, just like the Band members. British Aristocracy, nor the upper class were amused with The Who's music, neither with the Sex Pistols. Just an example of thousands.

IMHO there are way better Beatles songs. Twist & Shout does not make the hair on my neck stand up. Sorry. I guess we come from different socialisations, different educational backgrounds etc. What works for one person does not usually work for all. If this were not true, then we ALL would love e.g. the music of Engelbert Humperdinck and nothing else. *Beurk!* And we would not even discuss if drummers overplay or not.

Agreed.
Couldnt agree more , you have just made my point for me. Its all subjective. And It was you that stated for a while people didnt care about Bach, just saying I STILL dont care about him, I could have used any classical composer as an example.

Back to "Twist and Shout". Didnt claim it was there best work simply used it as it greatly excited me when it was released. To my very young ears it brought it home to me that music can be more than just a nice melody or a clever song, It can inspire genuine emotion and excitement. 50 odd years on that song still makes me want to jump about. It is still perfect the way it is, there is nothing about it I would change.

It does nothing for you? well, you cant learn emotion.
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Old 08-09-2016, 10:59 PM
AudioWonderland AudioWonderland is offline
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

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Originally Posted by Tommy_D View Post
I'm not a huge DMB fan either, but I was listening to the Crash album today (which is beautifully mastered by the way) and it came to me that Carter's playing is so crazy. It's crazy good; I don't deny that, but its also just plain 'ole crazy.

I listen to the music and can easily strip out 80% of his playing and still keep a very similar feel to the music. As a drummer I enjoy listening to his playing, but to a layman is this something bothersome to them? Would it be the equivalent of a guitarist throwing in random solo during the verses of the songs only to put in a screeching solo during the chorus?
Judging from the number of records sold. I don't think anyone minded
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Old 08-10-2016, 03:53 AM
steadypocket steadypocket is offline
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

Saw Carl Palmer live once. Incredible drummer but I thought he was a bit busy. Of course no examination of overplaying can be complete without looking at perhaps the most flamboyant drummer on the planet: https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=a9kPfelTEds

Poor dynamics and timing aside, when you just listen to the music without watching him, it isn't as bad as it looks.
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Old 08-10-2016, 04:59 AM
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larryace larryace is offline
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

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Originally Posted by steadypocket View Post
Saw Carl Palmer live once. Incredible drummer but I thought he was a bit busy. Of course no examination of overplaying can be complete without looking at perhaps the most flamboyant drummer on the planet: https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=a9kPfelTEds

Poor dynamics and timing aside, when you just listen to the music without watching him, it isn't as bad as it looks.
The link is wack Rich.
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Old 08-10-2016, 07:11 AM
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Anon La Ply Anon La Ply is offline
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

Yes, the link doesn't work ... Zoltan Chaney? Wailin' Smash? :)
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Old 08-10-2016, 08:45 AM
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AzHeat AzHeat is offline
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

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Originally Posted by Macarina View Post
Over playing might be subjective, but I think we all know when we see, er, hear it.

https://youtu.be/xx3Pzv3xJd4
This video defines the thread. My hats of to the gal on the keyboard. Don't know how she held her composure!
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Old 08-10-2016, 01:59 PM
steadypocket steadypocket is offline
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Default Re: Drummers who "overplay" the music.

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Originally Posted by steadypocket View Post
Saw Carl Palmer live once. Incredible drummer but I thought he was a bit busy. Of course no examination of overplaying can be complete without looking at perhaps the most flamboyant drummer on the planet: https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=a9kPfelTEds

Poor dynamics and timing aside, when you just listen to the music without watching him, it isn't as bad as it looks.
Sorry, try this:https://youtu.be/a9kPfelTEds
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