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  #1  
Old 05-24-2014, 11:34 PM
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Default Now this makes sense :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlTA3rnpgzU
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Old 05-25-2014, 01:15 AM
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Default Re: Now this makes sense :)

Wow, that's very impressive. I hope it catches on. Much needed shot of optimism for today :/
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Old 05-25-2014, 03:11 AM
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Default Re: Now this makes sense :)

Some of the claims simply won't work, for example the idea of melting the snow and ice on a roadway. The average solar power at the ground in northern latitudes during daylight hours is around 1 kilowatt per square meter, assuming no clouds. Over the course of a day, this might be around 5 kilowatt-hours total; more in the summer, less in winter (maybe half). The panel will not be 100% efficient. You'd be lucky to get 20%, or a net usable energy output of 1 kilowatt-hours per day. This also assumes that the panel surface is orthogonal to the sun, and for northern latitudes that means the road has to be canted at around 45 degrees otherwise we're going to lose another 30% or so. So on a cloudy winter day (i.e., when it's snowing), each square meter of solar collector might have a total energy output of 100 watt-hours over the course of the day. Of course, snow and ice itself, once it starts to accumulate, will lower the efficiency even more (as will dirt and debris, both of which we can assume will collect on roadways).

So, we want to melt ice on the road. The enthalpy of fusion (AKA heat of fusion) of water, that is, the amount of energy needed to make ice at 0C melt, is a little less than 100 kilowatt-hours per kilogram of water. A kilogram of water is roughly 1000 cubic centimeters, so this is equivalent to a layer of ice 1 millimeter thick across the 1 square meter surface. In other words, the collector generates about the energy needed through the course of a day to melt a layer of ice 1 mm thick across it. On some days a little more, on some days a little less, but either way, I certainly don't think that will be enough to keep the roadways clear. And I should mention that this assumes that we can redirect the energy to the surface without impeding the collection efficiency and that it's 0C air/ice temp. If it's colder we'll need even more energy.

I really think this proposal is wrong-headed, not because I don't like solar energy, but because there's a better way. That better way is placing the collectors on people's roofs. There's minimal wear and tear up there, they can be canted toward the sun for improved efficiency, and there is minimal investment in a new distribution network because the house itself is a consumer of electricity (and more so if you drive a plug-in electric car). We can easily meet the energy needs of a typical house by placing collectors across the roof. What we need is a good storage system for night time and high usage off of solar peak. We've made great strides in battery technology in the last couple of decades and there is a lot of research going on in this area. The other half of the equation is in reducing the house's energy footprint through increased efficiency and improved house design.

In fact, I will make a compelling comparison to home solar collectors tied into the existing power grid, and that is comparing it to the evolution of computer systems. The existing power grid is a centralized system. Power is generated en masse and then sent out to the consumers. This is similar to computer systems of decades ago: a single powerful computer that is shared by numerous users, each with a "dumb" terminal. The vast bulk of the processing is done at the central core. In contrast, modern computer networks are comprised of powerful individual computers that communicate with each other and which do most of the computational work locally. Houses with their own collectors are much closer to the networked model: you generate power locally for your own use but also have a "communication path" where you can share your power if you have more than you're currently using but can get more if you have a high short term demand. Distributed systems like this tend to be more flexible and robust.
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Old 05-25-2014, 04:16 AM
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Default Re: Now this makes sense :)

Interesting info from Jim, but in lay terms, I would not want to pay the taxes necessary for the implementation of this system.
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Old 05-25-2014, 05:10 AM
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Default Re: Now this makes sense :)

It sounds like they're crazy expensive, about $7,000 per tile; but incredibly cool technology. Loved the Detroit electronic music festival shout out!
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Old 05-25-2014, 07:09 AM
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Interesting info from Jim, but in lay terms, I would not want to pay the taxes necessary for the implementation of this system.
I think the idea of the system is that given the $1 million they are raising in the project linked, the resulting panels' energy output would... pay for more panels, I guess.
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Old 05-25-2014, 08:19 AM
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Default Re: Now this makes sense :)

They need to start making solar cell shingles. This would put solar cells on houses without having to add panels as an afterthought.
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Old 05-25-2014, 09:20 AM
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Default Re: Now this makes sense :)

I think the economic statements in that video are a little dumb.

I'm just guessing (like many professional economists do) but while the power companies do price gouge us, they do employ a whole heap of people and if this technology replaced the existing infrastructure, hundreds of thousands of people would be out of work, so it wouldn't "fix" the economy, it would just shift jobs from one group of people to another, and then we would see changes.

If this technology were adopted by half the country, you would imagine that the cost of traditionally sourced power would go up to the smaller number of consumers, and imagine the cost and scale of an operation like replacing every highway with this stuff, it's pretty big stuff and the money would have to come from somewhere, not to mention it might be crap to drive on anyway.

Roof solar panels were subsidized by the Australian government for a period but they didn't really take off, and the up front cost deters most people, despite them paying themselves off over a number of years.

Another thing - good luck competing with the rich and powerful electric companies, the electric car took decades, apparently the inventor of an electric/water powered car was murdered by the petrol mob back in the 60's or thereabouts.

I'm all for minimizing pollution and self sufficiency though.
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Old 05-25-2014, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
Interesting info from Jim, but in lay terms, I would not want to pay the taxes necessary for the implementation of this system.
Which system, the solar road or solar rooftop? I can't see the solar road as being viable (heck, I don't see how they'd stand up to a snow plow blade). Solar roofs, OTOH, I would definitely support that. If we could come up with a way to "paint on" some manner of amorphous (vs. crystalline) silicon collector, even if the efficiency was relatively low, it would be a huge step forward.

The solar road thing *might* work for a parking lot, driveway or play surface, but the cost to redo highways (let alone city streets and country roads) would be about eleventy bazillion dollars.

And that bit about having the energy used to light the streets themselves? Well, consider the popular solar powered pathway lights that many homes use. You've got a couple square inches of collector to light one LED which will last for a few hours. You might be able to get enough input in the summer to light marker dots for the entire evening but I seriously doubt you could get anything like what they're showing (bright lines and stripes). I could do the calculation but I don't think it's worth the time. Heck, you could do nearly as well with retro-reflective tape for a tiny fraction of the cost.

I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist so I don't think people are being murdered to prevent this stuff but I am fairly confident that the lobbyists for the oil and gas industry are doing their best to paint solar and other renewables as "fringe" technology and their existing system as an integral part of the economic system. How many times have you seen the commercial with the smartly dressed middle aged woman extolling the virtues of "safe, proven" gas fracking and the jobs involved in the oil/gas industry? They're doing their level best to scare people away from it and prevent the government from supporting it. Their profit always comes ahead of what's best for the country (indeed, their argument often equates what's best for them as being what's best for the country).
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Old 05-25-2014, 04:37 PM
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Default Re: Now this makes sense :)

Solar road. Being in Florida I see a lot of roof panels, mainly for hot water
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Old 05-25-2014, 04:40 PM
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Default Re: Now this makes sense :)

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They need to start making solar cell shingles. This would put solar cells on houses without having to add panels as an afterthought.

It's being done. And they don't look bad.
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Old 05-25-2014, 06:10 PM
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Default Re: Now this makes sense :)

I have worked in three alternative energy companies as a mechanical engineer, in two fuel cell companies and one solar panel manufacturing company. All three companies no longer exist. I helped build the first two fuel cell cars and the company built the first fuel cell bus. So I say this just to show you that I am all for alternative energy solutions to our problem. I do not say this to show that I am an authority, but to show that I have been yelling and screaming about global warming for many years.

I have been yelling about this from the time others where disbelieving global warming even existed, to the present time where it is popular to just say that man-kind has no effect on the planet and it is the planet itself that goes through its own natural cycles and the planet will heal itself.

To me this is the worst lie that has ever been known to man-kind because it affects all of man-kind, and many of our leaders are purposely ignoring and some purposely circumventing this major problem that affects us all.

So now you can understand where I come from when I say there are a few problems with the purposed system of solar roadways.

We have to get away from combustion fossil fuels there is no question about that. And we have to move away from manufacturing of our energy needs to a method that that does not contribute to the CO(2) in our atmosphere. There are many solutions to this problem, and no one solution will be the way, it has to be a combination of many solutions.

We have a history of fossil fuel usage that goes back to the mid 1800's before the American civil war. Kerosene was the major product at that time and gasoline was considered the secondary product in the refining process. Once the internal combustion engine was developed and started to be produced more, the oil companies found better ways to refine the petroleum and produce more gasoline.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_petroleum

At the time of the development of the internal combustion engine automobile, electric and steam cars were still possible alternatives to the gasoline/ diesel engines. Politics, business practices, had as much to do with the development of the gas engines as the technology and engineering for the products.

Solar panels are a good solution, but the problem is that it does not work in the dark. so there has to be a way to store the energy that is manufactured during the strong sunlight hours. Conventional batteries will not store the solar panel energy in an efficient way currently. Large capacitors are also not currently available to store the electricity. So another solution would be to convert the electricity to another form of energy.

Many have suggested that an electrolysis method should be employed that will break down the water into hydrogen and oxygen and the hydrogen should be used for its energy in the form of combustion engines or fuel cells.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fcv_PEM.shtml

I can see the solar panels on road ways where there is slow traffic speeds to have these installed, but on a major highway or where the speed of the traffic that rides on it, is of any speed where the gaps in the roadway will cause a very rough ride in the vehicle that rides on it, the solar roadways will not work.

Many of you are aware that railroad tracks are welded together in Europe to have a smoother ride. And those of you who are in the U.S., when you travel on an interstate highway that has the reinforced prestressed concrete slabs, you notice that when you drive over the gaps, as infrequently as they are, you feel the bumps in the roadway. The proposed gaps for the solar roadway, would have gaps of a higher frequency than the prestressed concrete slab roadways.

Another problem in the U.S. is that when doing repair work the traffic comes to a crawl, and a roadway with these panels will require a higher maintenance. I think placing these panels on the side of the road, or on side walks or on other flat surfaces like roof tops would be more cost effective overall then putting them on the road.

I know the cost of the individual panels is coming down, mostly because of the Chinese's purchase of most of the major solar panel manufacturing companies throughout the world. There are also solar panels that are flexible now too. However, how cheap are the panels now?
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Old 05-25-2014, 06:29 PM
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Default Re: Now this makes sense :)

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It's being done. And they don't look bad.
That's awesome, I was not aware of this.
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Old 05-25-2014, 10:27 PM
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Default Re: Now this makes sense :)

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Solar road. Being in Florida I see a lot of roof panels, mainly for hot water
Passive solar is great for that. One small problem, and that's dumping excess heat during the summer months. Around here (upstate NY), some folks use the excess capacity to heat their swimming pools. The other option is to convert the heat to electricity. Of course, no conversion process is 100% efficient.

One thing I find interesting is that everyone looks for the big hit, that is, some huge thing like this solar road idea. It is far less interesting from a news perspective but there are many things people can do to reduce their energy footprint. Simple stuff like switching to LED lighting. One of the things I do in my freshman circuits course is a lifetime calculation of costs between incandescent and LED lighting. Yes, LED lights are way more expensive but the majority of the cost of ownership is running the light. LED lights are way cheaper in the long run. For most homes, the second largest energy usage (after heating/cooling) is heating water. If you have an electric water heater you can get a huge improvement by switching to a air source heat pump water heater. A ground or water source is even better but unless you're doing new construction it will probably be cost prohibitive. All I can say is that if I was building a house today it would use a geothermal heat pump system.

One interesting factoid, in the USA, in spite of efforts to increase efficiency (like Energy Star), our per capita energy usage has been steadily rising for decades. The only notable hiccup was in the early 1970s (oil embargo). The USA has the highest per capita energy consumption in the world, currently about twice that of Western Europe.
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Old 05-25-2014, 11:31 PM
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Passive solar is great for that. One small problem, and that's dumping excess heat during the summer months. Around here (upstate NY), some folks use the excess capacity to heat their swimming pools. The other option is to convert the heat to electricity. Of course, no conversion process is 100% efficient.

One thing I find interesting is that everyone looks for the big hit, that is, some huge thing like this solar road idea. It is far less interesting from a news perspective but there are many things people can do to reduce their energy footprint. Simple stuff like switching to LED lighting. One of the things I do in my freshman circuits course is a lifetime calculation of costs between incandescent and LED lighting. Yes, LED lights are way more expensive but the majority of the cost of ownership is running the light. LED lights are way cheaper in the long run. For most homes, the second largest energy usage (after heating/cooling) is heating water. If you have an electric water heater you can get a huge improvement by switching to a air source heat pump water heater. A ground or water source is even better but unless you're doing new construction it will probably be cost prohibitive. All I can say is that if I was building a house today it would use a geothermal heat pump system.

One interesting factoid, in the USA, in spite of efforts to increase efficiency (like Energy Star), our per capita energy usage has been steadily rising for decades. The only notable hiccup was in the early 1970s (oil embargo). The USA has the highest per capita energy consumption in the world, currently about twice that of Western Europe.
Jim, take a look at Concrete Monolithic Dome houses. They are by far the most energy efficient homes available right now. Not only are they extremely efficient, they are almost everything proof. The shell will not burn, they stand up to tornadoes and hurricane force winds, and are bullet proof also.

You mentioned water heaters. Are you familiar with in line water heaters? They are a tankless option to heating water. It is basically an electric heater that is part of the hot water line, and it is switch controlled. When you want hot water, you flip a switch and it turns on the heater. You then turn on the hot water to your plumbing fixture and you have an unlimited supply of hot water. When you are done with the water, you simply turn off the switch. This saves electricity by not having a tank that has to continually regulate the water temperature.

For daytime lighting there are fiber optic lighting systems that have a solar collector which then runs the sunlight through a fiber optic cable and then redistributes it in the home using lenses. The beauty of this is fiber optics can be run around corners, and sunlight is free. While the system is not, it pays for itself after a few years. This cuts your light bill down because you only need to use electric lights at night.

Energy efficient options for homes are abound, you just have to look for them and be able to afford them at this point. But if you can, they will pay for themselves in the long run.
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Old 05-26-2014, 02:59 PM
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Jim, take a look at Concrete Monolithic Dome houses. They are by far the most energy efficient homes available right now. Not only are they extremely efficient, they are almost everything proof. The shell will not burn, they stand up to tornadoes and hurricane force winds, and are bullet proof also.
Shortly out of college (early 1980s) my goal was to build an earth sheltered home. Amazingly efficient. Basically you have a 55F heat sink surrounding most of your house. The problem with these and the concrete dome designs is that hardly anyone has experience with them and the last thing anyone wants is to be the test case.

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You mentioned water heaters. Are you familiar with in line water heaters?
Very familiar. Our issue is that we don't have natural gas and would need an electric version. According to the DOE, electric heat pump and instant-on gas water heaters are just about tied for efficiency/cost.

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For daytime lighting there are fiber optic lighting systems that have a solar collector which then runs the sunlight through a fiber optic cable and then redistributes it in the home using lenses.
I was looking at one of these a couple years ago to get some light into the north side of the house. Still might do it, just not a front burner project.
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Old 05-26-2014, 07:13 PM
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Shortly out of college (early 1980s) my goal was to build an earth sheltered home. Amazingly efficient. Basically you have a 55F heat sink surrounding most of your house. The problem with these and the concrete dome designs is that hardly anyone has experience with them and the last thing anyone wants is to be the test case.



Very familiar. Our issue is that we don't have natural gas and would need an electric version. According to the DOE, electric heat pump and instant-on gas water heaters are just about tied for efficiency/cost.



I was looking at one of these a couple years ago to get some light into the north side of the house. Still might do it, just not a front burner project.
Earth bag and Monolithic dome info and resources have grown since the early 80's. There are companies that deal specifically with Dome construction. There is also the DIY option if you can operate an air blower, spray foam gun, hang rebar, and use a chopper gun.

Earth bag homes require a shovel, nylon sandbags, and time to build the main structure. You can build a simple frame out of a 2x4 for aligning the bags if you are anal about perfectly straight walls (I would be). The hardest part would be finishing the walls in concrete. Roofing options are up to the builder.
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Old 05-26-2014, 07:27 PM
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This has strong future potential http://www.dvice.com/2013-5-3/graphe...ed-solar-paint

I can also see significant drawbacks with the solar road idea for highways, but for driveways & pedestrian paving/public spaces, they could be part of the mix for sure.

I ran a 2 year testing station at my house to test viability for wind generation. Unfortunately, with current turbine technology, the wind at my location was too turbulent to be efficient in terms of investment.

Currently, I run all my space & water heating needs from a combination of geothermal (borehole) & air source heat pumps. That converts to heat water for my underfloor heating to both levels of the house, as well as primary pressurised hot water tank. Cost a lot to install, but saves a fortune compared to other methods. Payback period was about 6 years.

My personal favourite that I think is ultra under exploited, is tidal power. So long as we still have a moon (& let's face it, if we lost the moon, heating my home would be the least of my worries ;) you have access to massive power 4 times a day. Especially in a country like the UK with a huge coastline compared to it's land mass, it's a no brainer. I know there are potential environmental & waterway access issues, but think of the payoff.
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Old 05-26-2014, 07:39 PM
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This has strong future potential http://www.dvice.com/2013-5-3/graphe...ed-solar-paint

I can also see significant drawbacks with the solar road idea for highways, but for driveways & pedestrian paving/public spaces, they could be part of the mix for sure.

I ran a 2 year testing station at my house to test viability for wind generation. Unfortunately, with current turbine technology, the wind at my location was too turbulent to be efficient in terms of investment.

Currently, I run all my space & water heating needs from a combination of geothermal (borehole) & air source heat pumps. That converts to heat water for my underfloor heating to both levels of the house, as well as primary pressurised hot water tank. Cost a lot to install, but saves a fortune compared to other methods. Payback period was about 6 years.

My personal favourite that I think is ultra under exploited, is tidal power. So long as we still have a moon (& let's face it, if we lost the moon, heating my home would be the least of my worries ;) you have access to massive power 4 times a day. Especially in a country like the UK with a huge coastline compared to it's land mass, it's a no brainer. I know there are potential environmental & waterway access issues, but think of the payoff.
I forgot about the under floor heating. That is a great idea that should be mandatory in modern construction.

Your tidal idea reminded me of an idea I once had: turn the moon into a solar spotlight. Use a combination of mirrors and lenses to reflect sunlight off the moon into solar collector stations that are strategically positioned around the earth. We have the technology to do this.
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Old 05-26-2014, 08:17 PM
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All great stuff..but payback and investment does not work. Not cost effective without government rebates and tax breaks. Solar is great, clean and wonderful. Good to be off the grid. The economics do not work. If it did every construction project would include solar.
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Old 05-26-2014, 08:28 PM
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Default Re: Now this makes sense :)

I think a combination of everything is a good idea. I like the solar paving idea in certain applications.

I've been looking at Earthships myself. http://earthship.com/
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Old 05-26-2014, 09:01 PM
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All great stuff..but payback and investment does not work. Not cost effective without government rebates and tax breaks. Solar is great, clean and wonderful. Good to be off the grid. The economics do not work. If it did every construction project would include solar.
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Old 05-26-2014, 09:37 PM
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Because goodness knows we can't involve the government in trying to improve our futures, right?
Oh, heck no. Didn't you get the memo? Everything about government is bad, everything about private corporations is good. Never mind the fact that the USA would be a far different place if we didn't have the federal highway system. Yeah, private industry was just itching to do that, right? The "invisible hand of the market" shares all the hallmarks of a religion.

And it's worthwhile to add that the economic analysis of solar, wind, etc. seldom takes into account the full costs. For example, it seems they never include the cost of carbon emissions accelerating climate change when analyzing oil, coal and natural gas. Oh wait, I forgot. Lots of those people don't believe that climate change is real. It's all a hoax perpetrated by rich scientists to get government funding. What was I saying about a religion...

As far as concentrating moonlight is concerned, the intensity of the full moon is about a half million times less than that of the sun. Therefore, the collector area would need to be about a half million times larger (assuming the concentrator is 100% efficient). That translates to around 7000 square feet to charge up one of those solar powered walkway lights.
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Old 05-26-2014, 10:23 PM
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Hell Jim, I like you.
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Old 05-26-2014, 10:51 PM
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And it's worthwhile to add that the economic analysis of solar, wind, etc. seldom takes into account the full costs.
in my other life, I used to sit on various European Norm committees, & "well to wheel" calculations were always revealing. Don't even get me started on bioethanol!
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Old 05-26-2014, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by JimFiore View Post
Oh, heck no. Didn't you get the memo? Everything about government is bad, everything about private corporations is good. Never mind the fact that the USA would be a far different place if we didn't have the federal highway system. Yeah, private industry was just itching to do that, right? The "invisible hand of the market" shares all the hallmarks of a religion.

And it's worthwhile to add that the economic analysis of solar, wind, etc. seldom takes into account the full costs. For example, it seems they never include the cost of carbon emissions accelerating climate change when analyzing oil, coal and natural gas. Oh wait, I forgot. Lots of those people don't believe that climate change is real. It's all a hoax perpetrated by rich scientists to get government funding. What was I saying about a religion...

As far as concentrating moonlight is concerned, the intensity of the full moon is about a half million times less than that of the sun. Therefore, the collector area would need to be about a half million times larger (assuming the concentrator is 100% efficient). That translates to around 7000 square feet to charge up one of those solar powered walkway lights.
No no no, put a giant set of mirrors on the moon that reflects the sunlight through lenses that can be pointed at solar collection stations. Think of it as large scale ant burning with a magnifying glass, only with a giant magnifying glass onto a solar collector.
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Old 05-27-2014, 12:29 AM
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Oh, heck no. Didn't you get the memo? Everything about government is bad, everything about private corporations is good. Never mind the fact that the USA would be a far different place if we didn't have the federal highway system. Yeah, private industry was just itching to do that, right? The "invisible hand of the market" shares all the hallmarks of a religion.
I'd insert an animated .gif of clapping hands here, but I think it would violate forum rules and it wouldn't meet the 20 character minimum. So pretend I posted one, because this represents my frustration perfectly.
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Old 05-27-2014, 02:39 PM
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in my other life, I used to sit on various European Norm committees, & "well to wheel" calculations were always revealing. Don't even get me started on bioethanol!

Don't let me stop you! I had a student who used to make biodiesel. He'd collect up all of the used fry oil from local restaurants and then process it. I understand that cane sugar ethanol in Brazil is fairly efficient, but then I've only read news reports. OTOH, from everything I've seen, the USA corn-derived ethanol takes as much energy to make as we derive from it so it's little more than a profit guarantee scheme for large agribusinesses like Monsato. Oh wait, I thought government involvement was bad. On second thought, never mind because this helps private corporations...
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Old 05-27-2014, 03:12 PM
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I understand that cane sugar ethanol in Brazil is fairly efficient, but then I've only read news reports. OTOH, from everything I've seen, the USA corn-derived ethanol takes as much energy to make as we derive from it so it's little more than a profit guarantee scheme for large agribusinesses like Monsato. Oh wait, I thought government involvement was bad. On second thought, never mind because this helps private corporations...
Having a few guys gather up used oil & cleaning it up for vehicle use is a good thing, but the level of deforestation to accommodate ethanol crops is just another F&$*&^g nail in the planet's coffin. Why that's supported with subsidies I'll never know.

Without getting too deep, all the really interesting technologies rely heavily on fuelling infrastructure to gain consumer acceptance. It's not a technology barrier, it's a money barrier. There's no way private companies will fund that, & governments won't/can't spend the money, mainly because voters don't want to see their tax dollars pumped into something many perceive as supporting lifestyle choices rather than necessity. Communism occasionally has advantages if you really want to get something done on a big scale.
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Old 05-27-2014, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Having a few guys gather up used oil & cleaning it up for vehicle use is a good thing, but the level of deforestation to accommodate ethanol crops is just another F&$*&^g nail in the planet's coffin. Why that's supported with subsidies I'll never know.

Without getting too deep, all the really interesting technologies rely heavily on fuelling infrastructure to gain consumer acceptance. It's not a technology barrier, it's a money barrier. There's no way private companies will fund that, & governments won't/can't spend the money, mainly because voters don't want to see their tax dollars pumped into something many perceive as supporting lifestyle choices rather than necessity. Communism occasionally has advantages if you really want to get something done on a big scale.
I was thinking the same thing about the Brazilian ethanol.

Yes, as you might know, they want to build a pipeline running north and south across the mid-west USA called the Keystone pipeline. It is supposed to run from the Canadian oil fields in Alberta to Texas refineries in the south. I've already worked on one that went from Alberta to Chicago. Best money I ever made in my life. I also worked on the natural gas lines in SW Pennsylvania. Good money was made there too. But the fact is, I felt dirty doing that kind of work. Granted, it paid the bills, but being a Liberal tree-hugging hippy from California, it just didn't sit right in my head.

Nowadays, people who don't support the pipeline are being accused of being anti-American and support reliance on foreign oil (Saudi oil). The only real solution is a clean solution, but I don't think change will come until mother nature forces a change in our lives.
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Old 05-27-2014, 06:38 PM
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As was eluded to earlier, vehicles used to run on steam and electricity before they ran on petroleum based fuels. A big issue was we didn't have the technology at the time to make these vehicles efficient.

For those interested in biofuels, the diesel engine was originally designed to run on peanut oil, but can run on basically any kind of oil that will combust under heat and pressure. Perhaps this is another reason to look at the hemp industry.

There is a trash removal company in Europe that operates an incinerator which is used to produce electricity to power their trash trucks. As long as people keep producing trash, these trucks will continue to run on electricity.

There are a ton of solutions available to clean up the planet, if everyone will just get on board with it is a whole different set of problems.
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