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  #41  
Old 08-16-2017, 04:37 AM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
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Default Re: Online Piracy Finally In the Crosshairs

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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
How do you figure I'm hating artists?
Well, you're speaking derisively about artists "sitting around wanting to be paid" for being heard, as if the content they provide has no monetary value for anyone else. I can't believe you don't know that other people are making money off that content, so for whatever reason you're singling out artists as being undeserving of being paid. Not only that, you're portraying them as being some kind of lazy POSs sitting around waiting for checks, like some kind of right wing caricature of welfare recipients.

Quote:
By my view I'm simply being realistic and adapting to the world as it is rather than try and force an impossibility with more government regulation on top of already existing regulation, all for literally nothing since the goal is un-attainable. I want those artists to stop worrying that someone ingested their music without handing over cash, and hit the road to earn money from the fans they're obviously garnering. I know of lots of acts here in the bay area doing this exactly. They offer up the music to enjoy knowing they can't control it anyway. As a result, if people like that music, they come see the shows, buy the shirts, purchase physical CDs, support online, be fans and grow your craft's influence. The days of sitting on your butt while a record company promotes and gives you little checks made of a tiny percentage are gone and should stay gone. Other more flexible, better business models are already happening. Artists and musicians could be looking at the positive side of this, which is how easy it is to share and gain exposure over the digital media you're producing.
...and the tech corporations got all the money and musicians got to toil nobly to provide content for their platforms, the end. I've heard it before. You didn't invent the story you're peddling here-- it's corporate mythology created for the purpose of winning musicians over to this system of high tech feudalism.

Thanks for the sitting on your butt thing again. I get that the hypothetical laziness of musicians is some kind of powerful motivator for you.

Quote:
Music and musicians existed long before copyright laws were around to "protect" them. It's a part of humanity, and it will persist regardless what our society does or thinks about intellectual property rights and copying rather than stealing or depriving someone of something. It's a fact of today that we cannot control the spread of information on the internet without acting like China and monitoring/censoring to the point of absurdity. Even then, you STILL can't control people on such a system.
Well, that's bullshit. In the modern world music is product which people are exploiting for many billions in profits every year, and the people who create the music-- or whatever creative content-- should be paid appropriately for it. The idea that the one thing they can't figure out how to do is get musicians paid is absurd.

Quote:
free en·ter·prise
ˌfrē ˈen(t)ərˌprīz
noun
an economic system in which private business operates in competition and largely free of state control.
Which is not a system that exists in the USA or any other country we would use as a model for civilization today. The government picks winners and losers via their regulatory decisions, which is why we are where we are today. See the DMCA. The tech businesses are all following Peter Thiel's philosophy, "competition is for losers" and are seeking monopoly control.
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  #42  
Old 08-16-2017, 05:08 AM
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Default Re: Online Piracy Finally In the Crosshairs

The world is changing. Getting fascist about music piracy is not going to stop that. Besides, it looks REALLY bad when record companies sue poor single moms for tens of thousands of dollars for downloading a couple of songs. Successful acts sell merchandise these days. That's how you make money now. SCREAMING about it won't change reality. But hey, keep screaming if you want. You're totally not making the entire forum roll their eyes at you. 😝
  #43  
Old 08-16-2017, 06:22 AM
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Default Re: Online Piracy Finally In the Crosshairs

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Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
Well, you're speaking derisively about artists "sitting around wanting to be paid" for being heard, as if the content they provide has no monetary value for anyone else. I can't believe you don't know that other people are making money off that content, so for whatever reason you're singling out artists as being undeserving of being paid. Not only that, you're portraying them as being some kind of lazy POSs sitting around waiting for checks, like some kind of right wing caricature of welfare recipients.
Yea, I'll admit. A lot of it just sounds like laziness to me. When the conditions change you need to adapt and lashing out un-gracefully in every direction including the actual end user just rubs me the wrong way. For my entire life, long before I ever started playing I've heard that the music industry is a huge bully that ruined "art" as a matter of profit.

Quote:
...and the tech corporations got all the money and musicians got to toil nobly to provide content for their platforms, the end. I've heard it before. You didn't invent the story you're peddling here-- it's corporate mythology created for the purpose of winning musicians over to this system of high tech feudalism.
Gotta say, these mirror my thoughts about your argument closer than I would have guessed. It seems we both feel the other is backing a large evil entity behind the ideologies.

Quote:
Thanks for the sitting on your butt thing again. I get that the hypothetical laziness of musicians is some kind of powerful motivator for you.
No need to take it personally unless you feel it describes you. I didn't mean it towards you. For the record, I've met musicians before, and there's a fair number of lazy ones who sit on their butt.

Quote:
Well, that's bullshit. In the modern world music is product which people are exploiting for many billions in profits every year, and the people who create the music-- or whatever creative content-- should be paid appropriately for it.
I think it's bullshit that if I stand in the rain I get wet, too, but that doesn't change the reality it will rain regardless if I'm offended at being drenched or not. I just don't think it makes sense to cling to this old pay for digital play idea. It's just not going to work.

You keep touching on a separate issue to my mind, which is the individual "monetization" of content by users on services like youtube. I think there's a lot of problems with the concept, but again, it's a little late now. Were it up to me, nobody would be getting paid except the service providing access. It's a complete pipe dream to think that even a company of google's size can compete with the ingenuity and tenacity of the entire world of users. It's not like they haven't been trying desperately. Lawsuits against grandmas, endless iterations of software that crawls the void of content for matches, entire firms of "troll" lawyers (not my term as you're sure to point out), crying-Lars-Ulrich-s, you name it.

Quote:
The idea that the one thing they can't figure out how to do is get musicians paid is absurd.
I know lots of musicians who can figure out how to get paid. They don't rely on "royalties" for every digital copy or play of their music.

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Which is not a system that exists in the USA or any other country we would use as a model for civilization today. The government picks winners and losers via their regulatory decisions, which is why we are where we are today. See the DMCA. The tech businesses are all following Peter Thiel's philosophy, "competition is for losers" and are seeking monopoly control.
Agree. I wasn't sure why you brought the term up as I didn't think it applied. It's certainly not "free enterprise" we're under now. Again my view is opposite. I feel that the "recording industry" is the one picking the winners and ignoring the artistic roots of music. I like the idea that the consumers of the content can choose what content is important or should be shared. I like that things like digital media and information are difficult to control.
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  #44  
Old 08-16-2017, 06:29 AM
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Default Re: Online Piracy Finally In the Crosshairs

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Seriously?
Serious as a heart attack, yes.
  #45  
Old 08-16-2017, 06:35 AM
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Default Re: Online Piracy Finally In the Crosshairs

https://promarket.org/google-close-n...l-system-1956/
  #46  
Old 08-16-2017, 06:39 AM
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Default Re: Online Piracy Finally In the Crosshairs

https://www.fastcompany.com/40411247...m-breaking-you
  #48  
Old 08-16-2017, 07:55 AM
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Default Re: Online Piracy Finally In the Crosshairs

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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
Yea, I'll admit. A lot of it just sounds like laziness to me. When the conditions change you need to adapt and lashing out un-gracefully in every direction including the actual end user just rubs me the wrong way.
Do you feel working people ever have the right to advocate for their own interests?

Quote:
No need to take it personally unless you feel it describes you. I didn't mean it towards you. For the record, I've met musicians before, and there's a fair number of lazy ones who sit on their butt.
I didn't take it personally, just noting this strangely hostile to musicians mindset. You imagine there are some musicians out there somewhere demanding money for doing nothing of value, and it bothers you.

I don't understand why you keep refusing to acknowledge my point that musical content is actually not worthless-- it's being monetized out the wazoo by businesses like YouTube, who exhibit pirated music on their site, but never pay the artists for it.

Quote:
I think it's bullshit that if I stand in the rain I get wet, too, but that doesn't change the reality it will rain regardless if I'm offended at being drenched or not. I just don't think it makes sense to cling to this old pay for digital play idea. It's just not going to work.
Bad metaphor, since we're talking about something that is the result of policy decisions by government on how to regulate trade on the internet. The idea you keep harping on, that the current kleptocratic model is inevitable and unchangeable, is absolutely false.

Quote:
You keep touching on a separate issue to my mind, which is the individual "monetization" of content by users on services like youtube. I think there's a lot of problems with the concept, but again, it's a little late now. Were it up to me, nobody would be getting paid except the service providing access. It's a complete pipe dream to think that even a company of google's size can compete with the ingenuity and tenacity of the entire world of users. It's not like they haven't been trying desperately. Lawsuits against grandmas, endless iterations of software that crawls the void of content for matches, entire firms of "troll" lawyers (not my term as you're sure to point out), crying-Lars-Ulrich-s, you name it.
It's obvious now that you're coming at this from a totally different perspective than me. I'm an artist, and I'm interested in policy that advances the interests of the creative class-- a multi-billion dollar industry with a whole lot of independent contractors, that is really getting pounded in this new economy, while creating incredible wealth for a few tech giants. That is totally irrelevant to you, as you're coming at it from a consumer's perspective, which is all about annoying musicians coming between you and your free stuff, and old resentments over RIAA lawsuits from a decade ago, and whiny undeserving rock stars.

Any current or future professional musicians on the site actually interested in the way public policy affects your chosen business should read Jonathan Taplin's book Move Fast And Break Things— read about Taplin and the book here. This article on recent developments in Safe Harbor law may also be interesting-- a short course on where the internet as it is came from, and where it may be going.
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  #49  
Old 08-16-2017, 08:04 AM
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Default Re: Online Piracy Finally In the Crosshairs

Sorry if this has been covered...

but why can't piracy be solved ala the Bitcoin/ether concepts...?
  #50  
Old 08-16-2017, 02:25 PM
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You're swimming against the stream. Against progress. Information can now be reproduced at virtually zero cost. Everyone wants it. You won't stop it.

It's a new paradigm for those whose business is information. Newspapers, travel agents, dictionary salesmen, artists, you name it. They all need a new business model. Some people are smarter than others and some get indecently rich while others go out of business or end up with an underpaid "sub" job like Uber drivers. Some people have become famous and make a decent salary thanks to youtube.

There will always be a market for artists. Creation is worth a lot.
I'd be much more worried if I worked with a record company than if I were a professional artist.
The problem with many artists is that they are not clever at selling their creations.

You can't sell your creations by the copy anymore. Anyone can copy at virtually zero cost. And what is it worth anyway. Who still owns albums nowadays. It's all streamed and I may download an album to listen off-line or I may not. I don't consider it any more "mine" or less "mine" in one case or the other.

Like TV, radio is going out of fashion. Who cares how often a song is played today on the radio. If I want to hear a song, I'm not going to sit and wait until it comes by. I listen to radio in the car when I'm too lazy to plug my phone in.

I think the music industry will move back more and more to playing live. People pay fortunes to be part of something big. More concerts, less recording. And some people will publish lousy phone movies of the concert on youtube. Should you care? or should you consider it free publicity for your next concert?

I am decided to go see Hiromi Uehara next time she's over in Europe. I would not have gone there without having seen her on youtube - thanks to this forum by the way :).
  #51  
Old 08-16-2017, 07:11 PM
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Default Re: Online Piracy Finally In the Crosshairs

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Originally Posted by drumming sort of person View Post
Once these monopolies are forced to change their ways, the money will start getting to the creators.
I just came here to point out that monopolies only exist BECAUSE of government. They don't just pop up on their own. When big business teams up with government to create more regulations behind the scenes, smaller competitors are forced out of the market because they can't afford the influx of new costs. They can no longer afford to compete in the market, or at least as effectively. Therefore, that big business becomes even bigger... perhaps eventually to monopoly size.
That said, do you really think more legislation and regulations will fix the problem? All that happens is that those extra costs hinder the market and are passed down to consumers. A more effective change may be for you to not use those services that you feel are stealing, and try to change the culture by promoting your own ideas. However, petitioning the government, who already actively practices theft with the threat of force, to intervene here... seems kind of contradictory. As has been said already, if this were something that could truly be stopped immediately, it already would have stopped. If you don't like it, don't participate. Morality cannot be legislated.
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  #52  
Old 08-16-2017, 08:01 PM
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Default Re: Online Piracy Finally In the Crosshairs

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Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
Do you feel working people ever have the right to advocate for their own interests?
Well, I don't feel I've said they shouldn't. I don't think anybody told the guys who owned horse and buggy combos that they shouldn't fight to hold onto their chosen profession, regardless how idiotic I think the effort. Look how long the postal service has kicked and screamed! Will it ever change that more and more their service will not be required or necessary in the future, even more so than it already is? Technology has changed the way we share information and media. Should the government go around attempting to charge everyone "postage"($150,000 per incident!) on their emails because they feel they're missing out? For that matter, email is on the way out too. Being replaced by more instant and convenient methods of information sharing.

Quote:
I didn't take it personally, just noting this strangely hostile to musicians mindset. You imagine there are some musicians out there somewhere demanding money for doing nothing of value, and it bothers you.
I think "bothers me" is a bit stronger than I actually care. I'm more intrigued by how they think it's right that every time someone hears their song they get paid.

Quote:
I don't understand why you keep refusing to acknowledge my point that musical content is actually not worthless-- it's being monetized out the wazoo by businesses like YouTube, who exhibit pirated music on their site, but never pay the artists for it.
There is mis-information here. google does not "exhibit pirated music". That's a false statement. What they do is provide an OPEN platform for digital media that anyone can upload what they like to. You act like they're just defiantly stealing music and openly hosting it for consumption, but in reality, this is the work of the end-users uploading what they want to share. The volume and total of this data which grows literally by the millisecond is so staggering that it makes me wonder how on earth anyone, yourself included thinks this can really be micro-managed with fractions of cents flying around to every artist in the media.

The biggest problem with the platform is that it lets end-users and content uploaders make money off the content which might not be theirs. This is much more of a malicious "theft" type activity than google is participating in, and as I said, were it up to me the individual "monetization" and all the BS that goes with it would be out the window. Google is simply, or should be simply tacking on ad-revenue or metric sales revenue to the media they host as a generic term. It's not possible for them to police the content to the extent copyright holders would like, so I think they should get out of the monetized content biz. Again, as I said, I think that ship has sailed too. There's a whole generation of people using that platform to make their income. Some legit, some not.

Quote:
Bad metaphor, since we're talking about something that is the result of policy decisions by government on how to regulate trade on the internet. The idea you keep harping on, that the current kleptocratic model is inevitable and unchangeable, is absolutely false.
I thought you said it was lack of policy. And you're wrong, my assessment is based on reality and research. The internet has given consumers a lot more power than was ever envisioned. It takes a lot of control from the government and puts it back to the people, as long as the government isn't allowed to meddle. It's changed literally every part of our daily lives including the consumption and attitudes towards media. It complicates things way, way past what was envisioned with copyright laws and enforcement.

The changes coming and already in progress are in fact, inevitable. Some folks don't like the changes, but that's too bad. It literally does not matter what sort of enforcement program they come up with, it will be beaten, or improvised around, and it will happen so fast heads will spin. The very most we could hope for is that maybe google might lose some revenue due to legislation. To think that they could ever police, keep up with or make sure everyone gets paid for every arrangement of 1's and 0's they lay claim to is pure fantasy on these open media platforms, which are a huge boon to humanity in the way they allow easy sharing of information, ideas, and yes, art and media.

Quote:
It's obvious now that you're coming at this from a totally different perspective than me. I'm an artist, and I'm interested in policy that advances the interests of the creative class-- a multi-billion dollar industry with a whole lot of independent contractors, that is really getting pounded in this new economy, while creating incredible wealth for a few tech giants. That is totally irrelevant to you, as you're coming at it from a consumer's perspective, which is all about annoying musicians coming between you and your free stuff, and old resentments over RIAA lawsuits from a decade ago, and whiny undeserving rock stars.
Your insinuation that I'm not a "real artist" because I can accept the reality of digital media is just plain assumptive nonsense. I'm a musician with multiple albums for sale through various bands, I'm a photographer in both the artistic landscape and architectural areas who's sold lots of media in various ways. In my past I was a painter and mixed media artist in local galleries and even taught classes after consuming all the available art classes I could as a young man. I could go on, but I won't. My life is completely filled with art and you are incorrect, again.

for the record, I let people look at my photography without owing me anything. I'm not an idiot and I understand that the content hosters such as flickr or what have you make money from my exhibition. Doesn't bother me and I still make money and get offers for new work. My bands let people listen to the albums in stream format and in some cases download the content for free if they choose, we also offer full quality downloads for a small fee, or physical media at a higher profit. At shows we tell people exactly how to go listen to and share our art with others. You'd be surprised how often people paid for our music regardless they didn't have to.

I just don't get how people can't see the world is different now than it was before. You can't hold onto the idea of getting paid every time your arrangement of 1's and 0's is transferred around the internet. There are plenty of ways to get paid in art and music, but this one is going away now that the radio and major media outlets don't control the world of art and music anymore, it just is.
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  #53  
Old 08-17-2017, 12:00 AM
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Default Re: Online Piracy Finally In the Crosshairs

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if this were something that could truly be stopped immediately, it already would have stopped.
Over Google's dead body, which is why legislation is the only recourse.
  #54  
Old 08-17-2017, 12:05 AM
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It's not possible for them to police the content to the extent copyright holders would like
Wrong, it is possible and trivially simple, especially for a technology company. And if it were not possible, they should just stop hosting anything that isn't authorized PRIOR to posting.
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:36 AM
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Wrong, it is possible and trivially simple, especially for a technology company.
See, as someone who works with servers, networks and data every day for a living, I can tell you you're wrong. With the current platform, it cannot be done. They've been trying for years and years, completely unable to keep up with the addition of "known" content, let alone all the brand new created content by everyone and their mother who has an account. The very moment they develop a system for blocking, finding, or even cataloging un-licensed content or things not owned by the poster, that is the exact moment when the world starts working to defeat those systems. It happens all the time, right now. The absolute best any publishing company has ever been able to do is make it slightly difficult and I do mean slightly. I can go get game of thrones for free, right now, with very minimal effort and at a high quality. HBO puts more effort into fighting piracy than anyone else I'm aware of, and they can barely scratch the surface of the piracy. After much kicking and screaming, it seems they are finally starting to understand and now offer their own easy to access and use streaming service. If they get it down to a cost where people actually feel good value for the transfers of data, the number of people paying to consume will increase.

It seems you're under the mistaken impression that google does not already spend tremendous resources trying to react and deal with all the claims against content users have uploaded.

Quote:
And if it were not possible, they should just stop hosting anything that isn't authorized PRIOR to posting.
I really don't think you understand the scale of this. This idea is literally impossible. Even if it were somehow possible, It would ruin the entire concept of youtube and turn it into just another paid corporate run media distribution channel that works poorly and has low traffic compared to what it was. And then guess what? Hundreds of other people, services, and ideas would come out to take over what google got forced out of. It cannot be stopped. You can't strong arm this, you can't just invade privacy and track everyone, you can't stop the freedom of the internet and technology without resorting to China type levels, and even they can't fully stop it.

It's whack-a-mole, but with literally infinite very determined, excessively hidey moles. Not to mention, with each new uploader uploading a video or media, that's literally a new, never before existing copyrighted material with a new copyright holder unknown to anyone. They have to wait for someone to arbitrarily say "yea, I don't think you're infringing anyone's copyright here, approved". Not possible for too many reasons. I believe the statistic is something like 300 hours of new content added every single minute 24/7 without breaks.

And it's not just digital media. The nets open up the world in every possible way and change our life and way of life regardless if people who liked the old ways get uppity. We have way too much power of information and it's getting harder and harder to take advantage of the population or strong-arm specific methods of distributing goods, services, and information/media.

The whole world is changing very fast. Change with it, or cry in your beer and be left behind.
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  #56  
Old 08-17-2017, 01:41 AM
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Dr_Watso, I find myself agreeing with you. There is no way to stop it. They only way to really make money off things is physical products. Be it special artwork on and in the album cover, merch, or the chance to see bands live.

I've shared the stage with some kick ass bands, and try to buy merch when possible. Maybe one or two will have a CD available, but they focus more on clothing and accessories. Those, compared to a standard priced CD (what, a buck a song plus maybe a dollar?) bring in more money for them, and allow me to get peoples attention directed towards the band. They also ultimately sell their digital tracks for dirt cheap, or at name your own price. They've already accepted what the future holds for them.

Probably the best way to sell music, while minimizing loss, is casset or vinyl. But there are ways to copy and upload them, so its only a matter of time. Plus who really owns a casset or record player anymore? I do. But while that fad was around for a while, locals have stopped trying to bring it back. Again in favor of merch and cheap/free digital copies. Digital copies cut a large cost out of the recording and release budget.
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  #57  
Old 08-17-2017, 01:58 AM
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Just read through this whole thread and my head is in a spin.

Phenomenal discussion, guys. Ocassionaly very forceful and firm, but well argued on all sides nonetheless.

I started out supporting one side, but then I began to understand some of the other viewpoints.

Disregarding the small minority of mega star musicians who made their fortunes, I think it's probably fair to say that musicians have always been exploited in one way or the other and not received their fair share. The big winners have always been those who control the dissemination. Previously it was the big Record labels, now big tech companies. Nothing new under the sun.

I highly recommend that people read the articles in the links provided in previous posts. Very interesting.
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  #58  
Old 08-17-2017, 02:29 AM
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Default Re: Online Piracy Finally In the Crosshairs

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Just read through this whole thread and my head is in a spin.

Phenomenal discussion, guys. Ocassionaly very forceful and firm, but well argued on all sides nonetheless.

I started out supporting one side, but then I began to understand some of the other viewpoints.

Disregarding the small minority of mega star musicians who made their fortunes, I think it's probably fair to say that musicians have always been exploited in one way or the other and not received their fair share. The big winners have always been those who control the dissemination. Previously it was the big Record labels, now big tech companies. Nothing new under the sun.

I highly recommend that people read the articles in the links provided in previous posts. Very interesting.
And we totally didn't waste people's time and energy on a drumming forum, talking about digital rights. Oh wait....never mind, we DID do that. LOL
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Old 08-17-2017, 03:22 AM
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And we totally didn't waste people's time and energy on a drumming forum, talking about digital rights. Oh wait....never mind, we DID do that. LOL
At first I thought the title read online privacy, so I was really interested. Then I realized what it was and it became a waste of time. We can argue the merits of control all day long, but this is no longer the days of napster, where someone can see where a song is being downloaded from and to. Thanks to the porn industry, things are multi streamed now, so a systems may tap any number of fragments and reassemble them on a system. To monitor that property, you'd have to be at or close to the endpoint. So yeah, you might say arguing this thread on a drum forum is a total waste of time.
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Old 08-17-2017, 03:43 AM
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Default Re: Online Piracy Finally In the Crosshairs

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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
Well, I don't feel I've said they shouldn't. I don't think anybody told the guys who owned horse and buggy combos that they shouldn't fight to hold onto their chosen profession, regardless how idiotic I think the effort.
Another bad metaphor, since we're not talking about an obsolete product-- music is more popular than ever, and there are fantastic amounts of money changing hands over its commercial use. I asked you because you seem to have a reactionary kind of problem with anyone but business interests and consumers advocating for their own interest.

Quote:
I think "bothers me" is a bit stronger than I actually care. I'm more intrigued by how they think it's right that every time someone hears their song they get paid.
What you're telling me is you don't know how media works.

Music is not heard in a vacuum. We're talking about it being played on a platform which uses it to attract users, and then sell advertising to people who want access to the platform's users. The platform then pays a royalty to the content creators for the use of their stuff. It's a very elementary concept and it's hard for me to believe you don't understand it.

Quote:
There is mis-information here. google does not "exhibit pirated music". That's a false statement.
No, it isn't. Making a video of music for which you do not own the copyright and posting it on the internet, possibly collecting a royalty for it, is piracy.

Quote:
What they do is provide an OPEN platform for digital media that anyone can upload what they like to.
I understand you want very badly for YouTube to bear no responsibility for what is posted on their site, but you're wrong. YouTube has a legal duty to remove infringing videos. They even have a flagging tool for that. As I pointed out earlier, they refuse to take flags from anyone but the copyright owner, guaranteeing the site will be amply loaded with infringing videos forever.

Quote:
You act like they're just defiantly stealing music and openly hosting it for consumption, but in reality, this is the work of the end-users uploading what they want to share. The volume and total of this data which grows literally by the millisecond is so staggering that it makes me wonder how on earth anyone, yourself included thinks this can really be micro-managed with fractions of cents flying around to every artist in the media.
Sounds like they've chosen an untenable business model. They should take your advice and try a different model, hey?

Joking, I know you would never suggest that to them. Copyright holders are under no obligation to subsidize Google's business with free content. The company is worth tens of billions of dollars. They certainly have plenty of money to invest in things they think are important, like lobbying the government to prevent any tightening of Safe Harbor laws, and driving around the planet taking pictures of every single human's home to post on the internet.


Quote:
I thought you said it was lack of policy.
No, I said policy decisions. Like the DMCA, which I referenced several times. Without the DMCA, the internet would look very different today.

Quote:
And you're wrong, my assessment is based on reality and research.
I'll have to take your word for it, since you haven't provided any supporting links. I'd like to know how you know it's "impossible" for YouTube to police their content, for example.

Quote:
The internet has given consumers a lot more power than was ever envisioned. It takes a lot of control from the government and puts it back to the people, as long as the government isn't allowed to meddle. It's changed literally every part of our daily lives including the consumption and attitudes towards media. It complicates things way, way past what was envisioned with copyright laws and enforcement.

The changes coming and already in progress are in fact, inevitable. Some folks don't like the changes, but that's too bad. It literally does not matter what sort of enforcement program they come up with, it will be beaten, or improvised around, and it will happen so fast heads will spin. The very most we could hope for is that maybe google might lose some revenue due to legislation. To think that they could ever police, keep up with or make sure everyone gets paid for every arrangement of 1's and 0's they lay claim to is pure fantasy on these open media platforms, which are a huge boon to humanity in the way they allow easy sharing of information, ideas, and yes, art and media.
Well, you're touching all the artist-denigrating, tech-triumphalist talking points here. It is incredible that for all the mind-boggling, invasive new technology they're creating, the one thing they can't do is figure out how to identify pirated music or pay content providers. Two things.

Quote:
Your insinuation that I'm not a "real artist" because I can accept the reality of digital media is just plain assumptive nonsense.
I'm going by your words-- I don't know anything about your career. I don't know any professional artists as personally invested in tech corporate boosterism as you are-- they're all too busy trying to survive to worry about Google's bottom line.

Quote:
I just don't get how people can't see the world is different now than it was before. You can't hold onto the idea of getting paid every time your arrangement of 1's and 0's is transferred around the internet. There are plenty of ways to get paid in art and music, but this one is going away now that the radio and major media outlets don't control the world of art and music anymore, it just is.
The way people get paid is by demanding to get paid. People in government are becoming more aware of how policies created in the 90s are negatively impacting the creative class, and will hopefully revise those laws to make it more difficult for big tech companies to profit from illegal content, among other needed improvements.
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  #61  
Old 08-17-2017, 03:46 AM
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Default Re: Online Piracy Finally In the Crosshairs

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See, as someone who works with servers, networks and data every day for a living, I can tell you you're wrong.
No, you can't. I've been developing software that actually CREATES and MANIPULATES the data that your servers use, for several decades. I know what I'm talking about. Move along please.

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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
Change with it, or cry in your beer and be left behind.
Ha! I don't drink beer. And I'm so far ahead of you that I'm just about to lap you. You're so far behind with all of this that you think you're in first place. You must have a bunch of Google stock or something.
  #62  
Old 08-17-2017, 04:02 AM
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Default Re: Online Piracy Finally In the Crosshairs

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No, you can't. I've been developing software that actually CREATES and MANIPULATES the data that your servers use, for several decades. I know what I'm talking about. Move along please.
Go ahead. Explain it to me. I'll have an easy answer for anything you can come up with, just as the hackers always have. You cannot write software that is endlessly adaptable as the people feeding these systems are. The fight has been going on for a while now, and no significant progress has been made. This magic software you're pretending exists or could exist is literal fantasy. Whatever you could come up with will be defeated or worked around, incredibly quickly. While you're at it, you should let the major anti-virus software companies know you've personally developed a huge real-time system that can compare and deal with all the data and intelligently work out what is what, whose is whose, and what to do with new data that doesn't fit anything like that and regardless that the properties and data itself are being actively altered by people trying to defeat that "intelligent" system. As well, and especially since you're a developer, you should alert the world you've come up with a way to beat software piracy as well! You've done it all!

Yea, right. Let me guess, your project is so good that it's top secret and you can't tell me? Actually, let's skip it because I think we both know you don't even know where to start any more than any of the other people trying desperately to control the un-controllable.
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  #63  
Old 08-17-2017, 04:43 AM
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Default Re: Online Piracy Finally In the Crosshairs

This thread is even dumber than ones about drum wraps....
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Old 08-17-2017, 05:17 AM
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Default Re: Online Piracy Finally In the Crosshairs

hey!.... I just farted.
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  #65  
Old 08-17-2017, 06:55 AM
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Default Re: Online Piracy Finally In the Crosshairs

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Yea, right. Let me guess, your project is so good that it's top secret and you can't tell me? Actually, let's skip it because I think we both know you don't even know where to start any more than any of the other people trying desperately to control the un-controllable.
It's so simple it's not even funny. The only reason it doesn't get implemented is because very powerful technology companies have a vested interest in the status quo.

Now go back to doing your server backups and hooking up printers on your networks.
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Old 08-17-2017, 07:10 AM
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Default Re: Online Piracy Finally In the Crosshairs

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The flood gates are already opened, and there is no stopping it.
With high quality printers that you can buy for home use, you can easily make counterfeit U.S. Currency. Why don't you try that on for size?
  #67  
Old 08-17-2017, 08:53 AM
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Default Re: Online Piracy Finally In the Crosshairs

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It's so simple it's not even funny. The only reason it doesn't get implemented is because very powerful technology companies have a vested interest in the status quo.

Now go back to doing your server backups and hooking up printers on your networks.
OK, just like the water engine? :D
  #68  
Old 08-17-2017, 11:28 AM
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Despite the childish one-upmanship going on between Todd Bishop and DrWatso, I think the the two of them are making good points.

On the back of post numer 60, I'm going to finally side with Todd on this one though.

DrWatso may be right about things changing and people must adapt. I do feel however that his embracing of the "new" is a little too naive and even leans towards a kind of resignation in the face of changes that aren't necessarily all good. You do have to adapt to change, but that doesn't mean you have to accept all of it unquestioningly and take it lying down. Like the saying goes "be the change you want to see". It would be equally valid to say "don't be the change you don't want to see (fight back!)".

A lot has been said here, but I think Todd simply identifies the fundamental issue:

Platform providers (big tech companies) are clearly profiteering on a grand scale from the use of content created by others. We all know who these companies are, and we know how much they are worth. I may not be tech savvy, but I've got enough common sense to know that when a person or company or other entity becomes so rich and powerful, it creates imbalances. An imbalance favourable to them and unfavourable to some others.
And I certainly don't accept that the companies in question are powerless to do anything. Rather, it would seem obvious that it's not in their interest to change things. Also, the idea that a company can profit immensely from a business based in "virtual reality" but at the same time not be held responsible for what happens on this "virtual platform" is completely abhorrent. Take the money = take the responsibility.

I am a little taken aback at suggestions that artists have to adapt and find new ways of earning their keep. What does that mean? That their art is no longer a valid way of earning money? It's simply a perversion when a musician has to sell "merchandise" because the actual art they are producing no longer has any meaningful value and can't be protected.

I don't pretend to have the same kind of insight into the issue as some other posters here, but at the same time my sense of "fairplay" isn't obscured by longwinded over-complications of the issue which are designed to obfuscate and defend the indefensible.

EDIT: my apologies to Todd, I shoyld have of course written "childish one-upmanship between DSOP and DrWatso"
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  #69  
Old 08-17-2017, 12:30 PM
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As far as I can see it there isn't much room for middle ground in this discussion and I think Mike has been fair - but there are real structural issues here that need addressing.

The music industry could have been the trendsetter in regards to digital copyright. It wouldn't have been too difficult to run a successful streaming service in 2004 but instead the like of Spotify (who I have my own issues with) didn't become mainstream until much, much later. I remember first using it around 2009 and five years is a long time on the Internet.

Apple Music is a highly successful service that offers legal, paid downloads but required the weight of Apple and a set of vertically integrated devices to make work. That takes time, to get the ground base of physical devices into consumers' hands and it became big because of the iPod, even though it was available on PCs (although iTunes is less than ideal). Apple have also demonstrated how they can change the industry very quickly - their relatively new mastering guidelines have practically eliminated loudness-focussed mastering and we're all the better for that.

Google absolutely do profit from end-users uploading copyrighted content and it is up to Google to fix that problem but at the same time the culture of free access to art is one of lack of scarcity.

See, for people to pay for art it has to fulfil several criteria. It has to appeal to the consumer's taste, it has to be accessible to the user and it also helps if it has some kind of collection value (scarcity). The reason that massive amounts of money are still paid for physical, visual art is that it is scarce. The problem is that scarce art is generally hard to find and collect and has to be presented well in order to sell.

Now, iTunes and Spotify solve the problem of access. They also present art well and things that appeal do sell - but to be able to be accessible you have be promoted by Apple, etc. That means that record companies and their advertising budgets still have a lot of sway over what gets presented initially to consumers. The pricing is at a point where it's trivial but still reasonably fair (at least on Apple music, not on Spotify) and it has largely replaced CD sales.

What do you do then, to become accessible if you don't have the weight of the music industry behind you? Well - we're now in a position and have been for some time for artists to upload their own works, for sale, online. Bandcamp is probably the leading example of this model, where artists can set their own prices and importantly, sell physical copies of their work in collector formats (e.g. cassettes, vinyl, CDs) as well as merchandise. You can still stream from their service but artists can also restrict the number of listens a user can have before purchase.

There is still an issue of curation - Bandcamp promote artists - but if you're really committed and want to make it work, you can - for remarkably little money and with savvy social media use - promote your own work online and get decent sales figures. If you're a good live act you can do even better. I've seen some really good artists on Bandcamp and for the last few months the vast majority of the music I've bought has been on there, either digital or physical sales. That works particularly well for underground artists.

Importantly, the good stuff is what tends to do well when it comes to independent releases. Good material, clever promotion and the right pricing in combination with efficient and scarce physical merchandising is the path to success independently with regard to sales. That's why somebody like me doesn't sell much on Bandcamp - it's niche, it's not necessarily the best example of that kind of work anyway (I have my own motivations for release, not sales), I don't have physical products, I don't work social media particularly hard and I don't play live. If all of those things changed and my material got better, then sure, I could probably make a bit of money on there. It is more of a meritocracy than the rest of the music industry. Treat it professionally if you want to get somewhere.

It's all very well for musicians to bitch and whine about copyright infringement and I can see their point. It does erode their industry and their earnings. There are plenty of ways that you can make money from your art, however. Embracing some of those changes and learning about how online marketing, promotion and sales work and doing something about it will help. Nobody in a record label is going to wade through hundreds of poor cassette demos any more, instead they expect a professional product before you even get to their inbox.

The funny thing is that musicians can produce that product themselves for relatively little cost with the help of a bit of education and hard work. Recording studios have never been easier to build. Production of high-quality work has never been easier or more intuitive, accessing your audience and offering them a product has never been easier. You need to appeal to your audience and they will pay you and buy your work.
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:43 PM
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Default Re: Online Piracy Finally In the Crosshairs

One thing to take into consideration is younger artists. People, like myself, have grown up through the way things are. In the 2000s I was in my teens. As digital media was gaining more and more traction, people were already loaning cds to rip or thumb drives loaded with music to other people. My generation has unfortunately grown up with getting free or cheap media, and do not have to adapt to the change. It already is, and they already have it in their minds that this is normal.

But honestly my generation sucks, so there is that too. They whine about gender neutral bathrooms or whatever... Just imagine if they lose their YouTube music.


BacteriumFendYoke has some valid points too. Some of those bands on bamdcamp make good money on their limited run vinyls and cassets with little goodies in them.
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:51 PM
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But honestly my generation sucks, so there is that too. They whine about gender neutral bathrooms or whatever... Just imagine if they lose their YouTube music.
How dare you make assertions about an entire generation of people based upon one issue that you clearly have no understanding of. How dare you.
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:58 PM
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Default Re: Online Piracy Finally In the Crosshairs

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How dare you make assertions about an entire generation of people based upon one issue that you clearly have no understanding of. How dare you.
I am offended that the single example I posted caused you to assume that that single issue is the only issue that caused me to make those assertions. I'll have you know I am issue fluid.

Welp back to tumblr to rant about your assumptions of my self that I assumed you would not assume. ;)
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  #73  
Old 08-17-2017, 02:47 PM
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Default Re: Online Piracy Finally In the Crosshairs

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As far as I can see it there isn't much room for middle ground in this discussion and I think Mike has been fair - but there are real structural issues here that need addressing.

The music industry could have been the trendsetter in regards to digital copyright. It wouldn't have been too difficult to run a successful streaming service in 2004 but instead the like of Spotify (who I have my own issues with) didn't become mainstream until much, much later. I remember first using it around 2009 and five years is a long time on the Internet.

Apple Music is a highly successful service that offers legal, paid downloads but required the weight of Apple and a set of vertically integrated devices to make work. That takes time, to get the ground base of physical devices into consumers' hands and it became big because of the iPod, even though it was available on PCs (although iTunes is less than ideal). Apple have also demonstrated how they can change the industry very quickly - their relatively new mastering guidelines have practically eliminated loudness-focussed mastering and we're all the better for that.

Google absolutely do profit from end-users uploading copyrighted content and it is up to Google to fix that problem but at the same time the culture of free access to art is one of lack of scarcity.

See, for people to pay for art it has to fulfil several criteria. It has to appeal to the consumer's taste, it has to be accessible to the user and it also helps if it has some kind of collection value (scarcity). The reason that massive amounts of money are still paid for physical, visual art is that it is scarce. The problem is that scarce art is generally hard to find and collect and has to be presented well in order to sell.

Now, iTunes and Spotify solve the problem of access. They also present art well and things that appeal do sell - but to be able to be accessible you have be promoted by Apple, etc. That means that record companies and their advertising budgets still have a lot of sway over what gets presented initially to consumers. The pricing is at a point where it's trivial but still reasonably fair (at least on Apple music, not on Spotify) and it has largely replaced CD sales.

What do you do then, to become accessible if you don't have the weight of the music industry behind you? Well - we're now in a position and have been for some time for artists to upload their own works, for sale, online. Bandcamp is probably the leading example of this model, where artists can set their own prices and importantly, sell physical copies of their work in collector formats (e.g. cassettes, vinyl, CDs) as well as merchandise. You can still stream from their service but artists can also restrict the number of listens a user can have before purchase.

There is still an issue of curation - Bandcamp promote artists - but if you're really committed and want to make it work, you can - for remarkably little money and with savvy social media use - promote your own work online and get decent sales figures. If you're a good live act you can do even better. I've seen some really good artists on Bandcamp and for the last few months the vast majority of the music I've bought has been on there, either digital or physical sales. That works particularly well for underground artists.

Importantly, the good stuff is what tends to do well when it comes to independent releases. Good material, clever promotion and the right pricing in combination with efficient and scarce physical merchandising is the path to success independently with regard to sales. That's why somebody like me doesn't sell much on Bandcamp - it's niche, it's not necessarily the best example of that kind of work anyway (I have my own motivations for release, not sales), I don't have physical products, I don't work social media particularly hard and I don't play live. If all of those things changed and my material got better, then sure, I could probably make a bit of money on there. It is more of a meritocracy than the rest of the music industry. Treat it professionally if you want to get somewhere.

It's all very well for musicians to bitch and whine about copyright infringement and I can see their point. It does erode their industry and their earnings. There are plenty of ways that you can make money from your art, however. Embracing some of those changes and learning about how online marketing, promotion and sales work and doing something about it will help. Nobody in a record label is going to wade through hundreds of poor cassette demos any more, instead they expect a professional product before you even get to their inbox.

The funny thing is that musicians can produce that product themselves for relatively little cost with the help of a bit of education and hard work. Recording studios have never been easier to build. Production of high-quality work has never been easier or more intuitive, accessing your audience and offering them a product has never been easier. You need to appeal to your audience and they will pay you and buy your work.
Well, you're right, this thread has been quite polarised. I think you just provided some much needed middle ground.

Again, I can't say that I'm overly familiar with the the different contempory music outlets. Like Dylan said "don't cirticise what you don't understand".
In that vain, I'm not going to let my ignorance allow me to be a reactionary and denounce all the changes of recent times. I'd be a hypocrite since I enjoy the internet and benefit greatly from it like us all.

However, I'll stand by my position in regards to certain unhealthy imbalances that I see. Like Matt said, maybe it's too late to close the doors once the horses have bolted. People have become so used to the easy and dirt-cheap, even "free" availability of music and visual content, how is society going to be able to learn to get back to a situation where music and the arts are held in higher esteem and people accept that it cannot simply be consumed for the equivalent of peanuts. Human nature is sometimes very basic in it's reasoning: "I've had it for free for so long, there's no reason why I should pay now".
I know people who can easily afford to buy their music and movies, especially since they don't "consume" large quantities. Yet they take advantage of "free" downloads whenever possible. It's a sad attitude. An attitude which has been fuelled also by big tech companies that at the same time profit from the situation.
There is definately a prevalent sense of entitlement on display by many people, often justified under the guise of "personal freedom", "my right to this and that".

For example, one reaction to a perfomers "no mobile phone policy" during concerts was well and truly revealing. The person argued that they "paid the money for the ticket so it's their right to record the gig". Another said that this policy equated to a form of authoritarianism.
Buying a concert ticket entitles you to attend the concert, nothing more. You must abide by the rules and conditions of the event in question. You don't like it? Then don't go. I have been confronted often with this attitude and it is really detrimental to society. The idea that someone has paid a paltry fee for access to something or somewhere and that they can then proceed to do whatever they like in that context. It's not good. Lack of respect, ignorance of a rules based society where we respect each other.
I agree with Dr Watso that the internet has had some kind of liberating effect, allowing greater freedom of a kind. However, the way this new idea of freedom has been perpetuated has led to many people being unreasonably self-entitled and contemptful of others and just plain disparaging about the value and integrity of what belongs to others.

I know I'm drifting off into less topic-specific rambling, but I do see a correlation between the publics attitudes and how the big tech companies handle content.

Let's not forget, despite all the sloganieering, Google et al are not "cultural revolutionaries and freedom fighters" that have come to liberate us all, they are commercial businesses and they are making record amounts of money. I for one am certainly suspicious of the way they profit from the use of content made by others.

I'm afraid the ignorant have only got their intuition to guide them, and mine says that something's not right.
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Old 08-17-2017, 04:47 PM
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Piracy! Oh No! https://youtu.be/mCDA-m-TQdU
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  #75  
Old 08-17-2017, 05:03 PM
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I am offended that the single example I posted caused you to assume that that single issue is the only issue that caused me to make those assertions. I'll have you know I am issue fluid.

Welp back to tumblr to rant about your assumptions of my self that I assumed you would not assume. ;)
It doesn't matter how you dress it, that statement was still the statement of a dickhead.
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Old 08-17-2017, 06:54 PM
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It doesn't matter how you dress it, that statement was still the statement of a dickhead.
What is it about some threads that just makes otherwise very cordial forum members get all tetchy and start calling names.

Robust debate is good, well formulated cirticisms are good, even strongly rebuking another members post in a stiff but well reasoned manner can be good if it can be justified.

Words like dickhead are not constructive.

Let's be clear, the above statement can't be "dressed" in any way either. It basically says that another forum member is a dickhead.

I'm not going all "moral police" here or anything. I just get annoyed at the occasional lowering of an otherwise high standard of debate which I'm used to on this forum. I'm particularly annoyed when the slip up is by someone who I recognise as usually being a good and regular contributor.

Now, I'll think I'll just try some of that robust discourse myself...

SHAPE UP YOU PUNKS AND BE NICE TO EACH OTHER OR ELSE I'LL HAVE TO COME OVER THERE AND KNOCK SOME HEADS TOGETHER.

(said from the relative safety of my distant and anonymous location)
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Old 08-17-2017, 07:47 PM
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What is it about some threads that just makes otherwise very cordial forum members get all tetchy and start calling names.

Robust debate is good, well formulated cirticisms are good, even strongly rebuking another members post in a stiff but well reasoned manner can be good if it can be justified.

Words like dickhead are not constructive.

Let's be clear, the above statement can't be "dressed" in any way either. It basically says that another forum member is a dickhead.

I'm not going all "moral police" here or anything. I just get annoyed at the occasional lowering of an otherwise high standard of debate which I'm used to on this forum. I'm particularly annoyed when the slip up is by someone who I recognise as usually being a good and regular contributor.

Now, I'll think I'll just try some of that robust discourse myself...

SHAPE UP YOU PUNKS AND BE NICE TO EACH OTHER OR ELSE I'LL HAVE TO COME OVER THERE AND KNOCK SOME HEADS TOGETHER.

(said from the relative safety of my distant and anonymous location)
Might be wrong, but I took that exchange as having a joking tone. Hard to read sarcasm sometimes.
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  #78  
Old 08-17-2017, 08:03 PM
Dr_Watso's Avatar
Dr_Watso Dr_Watso is offline
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Default Re: Online Piracy Finally In the Crosshairs

Quote:
Originally Posted by drumming sort of person View Post
It's so simple it's not even funny. The only reason it doesn't get implemented is because very powerful technology companies have a vested interest in the status quo.
Literally laughed out loud at my desk. The only reason "it" doesn't get implemented is "it" does not exist. As I thought, you can't even start to explain it to me. Just the fact you think piracy of data can be dealt with in any sort of simple fashion honestly leads me back to thinking you don't really understand this.

Quote:
Now go back to doing your server backups and hooking up printers on your networks.
Right. As if I wasn't too busy with developers screwing up their environments and not being able to fix it or blaming hardware when it's clearly code efficiency issues. I'm very wounded by your scathing assessment of the sys/net engineering profession, though. My job and how it's performed has changed a lot over the years I've been doing this. Good thing I adapted instead of acting like the old ways were the best ways and crying about it.
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  #79  
Old 08-17-2017, 08:05 PM
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BacteriumFendYoke BacteriumFendYoke is offline
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Default Re: Online Piracy Finally In the Crosshairs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post

Right. As if I wasn't too busy with developers screwing up their environments and not being able to fix it or blaming hardware when it's clearly code efficiency issues. I'm very wounded by your scathing assessment of the sys/net engineering profession, though. My job and how it's performed has changed a lot over the years I've been doing this. Good thing I adapted instead of acting like the old ways were the best ways and crying about it.
Dammit I'll keep my CP/M server going because I can't cope with change!
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PEWFLADCC
  #80  
Old 08-17-2017, 08:06 PM
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Dr_Watso Dr_Watso is offline
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Default Re: Online Piracy Finally In the Crosshairs

Quote:
Originally Posted by drumming sort of person View Post
With high quality printers that you can buy for home use, you can easily make counterfeit U.S. Currency. Why don't you try that on for size?
More complete and total nonsense. But I forget who I'm talking to... The guy who already solved digital piracy! Perhaps home inkjet printers are part of that master plan, too?
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